please help fellow DUe'rs (Christians please read)

[mikedevilsfan]

Hey all- I am trying hard to get the folks at The Majority Report namely Sam and Janeane to stop using the term "Rapture Right." This is extremely important and here is why:
1. The term “Rapture” is a religious term not a political one. It may be silly to those who don’t believe (I understand) but it’s no sillier than a Hindu believing that they will come back as an ant, or a Buddhist believing in being one with the universe, or a Pantheist believing that God lives in all things etc. you get the point.

2. If we really believe in separation of Church and State, then it’s hypocritical to use a term like this. Hypocrisy is reserved for Repub’s! : )

3. Some great Americans belong to churches that believe in the rapture- Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Martin Luther King, Jim Wallis etc. Let’s not slight these people.

4. Most important- Air America radio is now on public radio in many places and if a Christian who turns on his or her radio and starts to hear some things making sense (like Bush is a liar, that war is wrong, Repubs don’t really care about the message of Christ etc.) and then hear a generic term like “Rapture Right” they will be offended and turn off. What a waste over a stupid phrase.

5. Even Mike Malloy says “quotes around Christian” when he says the word Christian. His term for these nuts is “Christ Killers” I like this.

6. We have a lot of Christians in this country and we are going to have to win them over (more than we have) to get a solid majority. If the Church ever wakes up to the Right wing lies—they will be in serious trouble.

7. Our tent is huge. Christians and non—Christians and Atheists alike are welcome. We may not agree on personal issues of faith, but we agree on how the world should be run…… peacefully.

8. I do understand that Bush and his cronies are trying to “usher in the second coming” and are “acting as if they are the last generation and raping the land etc.” but there is nothing Biblical about that.

So join me if you will, and email the majority report and let them know its offensive to use this term and there are more terms they could use to describe this kind of behavior.
http://www.airamericaradio.com/shows/majorityreport/contact.asp

Thanks!!!
Free America from the Fascist Right,
Michael

[bertha katzenengel]

1. Michael: What church does Jimmy Carter belong to that believes in

the rapture? Thanks.

[beyurslf]

4. Pretty sure he is a Baptist... maybe even a Southern Baptist

[bertha katzenengel]

5. IIRC, he resigned from the Southern Baptist church.

If that's so, I'd like to know to what church he belongs so I can find out if the Rapture is one of its doctrines. Wonder if the OP knows.

[Samantha]

14. I too left the Southern Baptist church when it supported the preemptive

attack on Iraq (the only church in the US to take a pro-position). I didn't realize Carter had resigned. I do know Al Gore is a Southern Baptist.

[mikedevilsfan]

22. excaclty

He is a good man also.
M

[Clark2008]

156. Al doesn't attend church anymore, unfortunately.

I read in the New Yorker that he and Tipper don't go (very often) because of the, ahhh, well, ummm... because of they very un-Christian-like way in which they've been treated.

Sad, really. My Dad's side of the family was Southern Baptist and no one was a wingnut when I was growing up.

[carpetbagger]

83. Jimmy Carter's still a southern Baptist, despite leaving SBC.

He belongs to Maranatha Baptist Church (maranathachurchplains.org). They say "Maranatha is a Bible-believing, Christ-centered fellowship dedicated to the worship of Almighty God and the taking of the gospel message to the ends of the earth." I haven't been there since 1995, but it seemed pretty standard baptistish then.

I would imagine that most of the members of that church believe in the Rapture. I know Carter is still a traditional Christian, so I'd guess there's a good chance he does in fact believe in the rapture. I think it's safe to presume that he would stand up for those who do as being persons with legitimate religious beliefs, whether or not he or I or you agree with them.

[WyLoochka]

120. The "Rapture" is NOT

"Traditional." It was invented and promulgated in the early 20th century.

The rapture "doctrine" doesn't "pass it on as it was handed to you" smell test. ie - it's heresy - recent heresy - not "traditional" at all.

on edit addition

[carpetbagger]

134. True, in the big sense, but it passes the grandfather test.

Most of the people in that area, right or wrong, would believe that their grandfathers believed in it. Like many things we hold to be traditional, it may not be that old. (I chuckled when I read about a newspaper article talking about a high school hazing "tradition" that didn't exist ten years before, when I went to that school). I bet you 2 to 1 that Carter grew up thinking the Rapture was a traditional belief.

The larger point (and I would refer you to a post below from me) is that many, if not most people, consider it to be part of the "second coming package". Progressive opinion leaders screw all of us over when they try to drive off the progressives who believe, with or without ever examining that belief, in the set of beliefs they grew up with.

If I remember, the rapture was a 19th C. interpretation that got popular in the US by Moody.

EDIT: I found a poll from the late 1990's that showed 40% of Americans believing in the rapture.

[mikedevilsfan]

148. 40 percent of americans or the church?

Even if it's only 40% of Americans that is still a huge number of votes.
You have a link for that?
Michael

[WyLoochka]

176. Jimmy Carter most

likely does not now, nor did he when he was growing up, think "the Rapture was a traditional belief."

Carter is 80+ years old. He's a real Baptist. The Baptist church he grew up in did not subscribe to nor teach the "rapture" doctrine. That particular Baptist sect - the Southern Baptists changed over time to embrace the heresy and Jimmy Carter left it a few years ago.

The heresy of the "Rapture" was popularized, primarily, by recent fiction - not the Bible, as has been pointed out by many in this thread.

We should change our language because so many people have been foolishly hood-winked by fiction, by heresy? How are people to know they have been made to be fools unless it is pointed out to them?

[mikedevilsfan]

203. Like I said before

The scofield Bible is where it became popular NOT IN THE 70's.
That study Bible was written in 1908!!!!!!!!
This is not to say that the ideas hadn't formed earlier.
Michael
but it still doesn't matter. I stand by the original post.

[FreedomAngel82]

105. I thought

Carter was a Methodist?? :shrug:

[mikedevilsfan]

11. Baptist

All the aforementioned people are baptists.
Also most pentacostals, A/G. Cog, COC, Methodist and tons of non-denominational churched believe it. More belive than don't, even if eschatology is not a big priorty in their teaching.
Michael

[bertha katzenengel]

37. My question really is this:

Why is belief in the rapture so important that you'd make this appeal? It's a minor point in fundamentalist Christian theology, IMO.

[mikedevilsfan]

86. Why>?

"Why is belief in the rapture so important that you'd make this appeal? It's a minor point in fundamentalist Christian theology, IMO."

because it is offensive to many potential voters.
I still listen listen though. My favorite is Mike Malloy and he is an Atheist. But, he also is aware that he could offend some so he says things like "quotes around the word Christian" and talks about what Jesus really taught. He understands that he has many brothers and sisters who are also believers.
Jeanene and Sam seem to be in love with their new catch phrase, and could care less if it drives people away. TO me getting the evil GOP out of the office so my sons have a chance at life is more important.
Michael

[blondeatlast]

184. Here's the problem---the Rapture ALONE is not offensive, but, yes,

the way Sam and Janeane use it is obviously derogatory.

[mikedevilsfan]

204. Thank you. NP

[carpetbagger]

99. Why this is important.

Millions of Americans who believe in peace, economic justice, conservation, and the democratic vision of America also believe in the rapture. Some are true believers, some haven't thought much about it, some go along with it. It is important that the opinion leaders of the left don't tell them to go fuck off. Denying the rapture is one thing, making fun of people for believing in it is quite another.

It might be petty, but they will leave us. I don't blame them. As hardcore a Great Society Democrat as I am, I'd probably have stayed at home today if my city councilman had made fun of my religious beliefs. He didn't, I voted for him, and last I heard he missed having to go through a runoff by less than 1%.

We need those people. We need them to get back into the majority, and we also need them to help us to put our beliefs back in the national driver's seat.

It is somewhat of a minor point in fundamentalist Christianity, but to those without extensive knowledge of fundamentalist theology, it's essentially a part of the second coming, which is a pretty damn major part of fundamentalist Christianity.

[mikedevilsfan]

115. Well said

nicely put.
And these angry people who are balking would see that us rapture leftist have the same goal they do: progression.
Michael

[QC]

187. Great post! It's amazing how many people here seem not to realize

that we need votes to win elections and that alienating people for no good reason is not a way to get those votes.

Frankly, Sam and Jeanene seem to go out of their way to validate the "librul elitist" stereotype every chance they get. I stopped listening to them a year ago because I got tired of listening to two smirky, cutesypoo, affluent urbanites piling on the Great Unwashed out in Flyover Country. I'm sure Rove thinks they're doing great work, but I sure as hell don't.

[mikedevilsfan]

205. I agree

She seems to have that elitist attitude more than Sam I think. He's pretty much about facts, although he uses Rapture Right more than Janeane does.
But the other night she actually was explaining what "art" was in music and what was not.
It seems they could put their efforts in better places.
Michael

[LiberallyInclined]

199. personally, i don't care if they vote with us or not-

if the rapture retards want to keep cutting their noses off to spite their faces, let them.

i don't see things in this country changing for the better in my lifetime, anyway.

[mikedevilsfan]

206. Not with that attitude anyway (NT)

[QC]

208. Yeah, it's not like we need to win some elections or anything.

Let's just push out everyone who's insufficiently pure to be a Democrat. After enough purification we can start having our national convention in somebody's spare bedroom. Sure, it'll be the end of our party and our nation, but at least we won't have to deal with those déclassé folk who go to church and all that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. Traditional Southern Baptists (like Carter, Clinton, King)

don't believe in the Rapture, or at least, it's not a big part of their theology.

It's a fringe belief that has been hyped a lot by the Left Behind books.

[InfoMinister]

6. What Are You Talking About?

The rapture is in the Bible. I mean that's something I learned when I was 5 in Sunday school in a Baptist church. However, the term rapture isn't in the Bible. They basically just tell what will happen. These are the verses that the Baptists always said were about the Rapture.

John 14:1-3 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Philippians 3:20-21 "For our conversation is in heaven; from where also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Matthew 24:40-41 "two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left"

Luke 17:34-36 "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. No, the doctrine of the Rapture is cobbled together from

scattered Bible verses, including the Book of Revelation, which was never meant to be a prophecy of the end times but was meant to encourage Christians suffering persecution under Rome, prophecying the downfall of Rome.

Its inclusion in the canon of the Bible was controversial, and Luther considered leaving it out of his German translation of the New Testament.

ON EDIT: The verses that you quote refer to the raising of the dead on Judgment Day, which is not the same as the doctrine of the Rapture.

The doctrine of the Rapture says that all the good Christians will be taken alive into heaven before Christ returns to earth.

[InfoMinister]

26. The Raising of The Dead Is Supposed To Happen At The Same Time

Well, according to some people. What I posted contained information about both events.

[mikedevilsfan]

35. If you believe this:

"scattered Bible verses, including the Book of Revelation, which was never meant to be a prophecy of the end times but was meant to encourage Christians suffering persecution under Rome, prophecying the downfall of Rome."
Then I am afraid this is a wasted conversation.
The book of revelation is pretty much accepted as, well.. a revelation. This is also not fringe... But this (still) has nothing to do with political affiliation.
M

[mikedevilsfan]

24. I think he meant:

Ithink he was saying that many churches don't put this at the forefront. But most do believe in it. Do some searching....
M

[Individualist]

27. Lydia is not a he

and where are you getting that nonsense that most believe in it?

[InfoMinister]

31. Honestly, This Is The First I've Ever Heard Of People Not Believing In It

I thought all Christians believed in the Rapture and I never really gave it a second thought.

[amazona]

56. how old are you?

The rapture didn't exist prior to about 1970. "All" Christians believe in the Rapture, I don't think so.

Didn't you go to Sunday school???? The Rapture is a heresy for the stupid people invented by Hal Lindsey of "The Late Great Planet Earth."

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[InfoMinister]

84. I'm 23

Yes, I went to Sunday School. That's where I learned about the rapture.

[mikedevilsfan]

87. Tell me this

When did the Scofield Bible come out? 1930 ish? That's where Lindsay got hid ideas from. But i use hermeneutics to get my end time theology not Lindsay, or La hay etc.
And I will be 33 in 3 weeks.
Michael

[InfoMinister]

88. How Many Versions of the Bible Are There?

[mikedevilsfan]

110. Maybe 50

But this is misleading.
People always say this as if they are radically different.They are not. Unless you count the New World Translation by C. Russell.
Whether you say he who is born agian, or he who is born from above doesn't really matter.
Michael

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

182. II. LIMITS OF HERMENEUTICS

II. LIMITS OF HERMENEUTICS

Though the influence of hermeneutics is so far-reaching, its efficiency must not be overestimated. Hermeneutics doe not supply a deficiency of natural ability, nor does it rectify false philosophical principles or perverse passions, nor again does it impart the needed philological and historical erudition. Secondly, of itself hermeneutics does not investigate the objective truth of a writer's meaning, which has been established by its canons; it does not inquire what is true or false, but only what the writer intended to say. Hence a hermeneutic truth may be an objective falsehood, unless the writing subjected to the hermeneutic rules be endowed with the prerogative of inerrancy. Thirdly, hermeneutics does not inquire into the authenticity of a writing, nor into the genuineness of its text, nor again into its special character--for instance, whether it be of a sacred or profane nature. Biblical hermeneutics presupposes, therefore, a knowledge of the history of the Canon of both the Old and the New Testament, an acquaintance with the results of the lower or textual criticism, and a study of the dogmatic treatise on inspiration. The number of limitations of hermeneutics will not render the reader impatience, if he keeps in mind that he bears with the limits which circumscribe the field of other branches of learning; no one blames grammar, for instance, because it does not confer any special linguistic aptitude on the grammarian, or because it does not improve the melody or the syntactical structure of the language.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07271a.htm

[mikedevilsfan]

207. No offense but

This is all coming from a Church (Catholic) that bases some of its theology on what a group of people decided outside of scripture. The whole concept regarding purgatory comes from a single scripture found in the Apocrypha. There is much more evidence to support the rapture than just one scripture.
Michael

[knitter4democracy]

65. There's a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming

Almost all Christians, those who believe the Nicene Creed (let's not get into the Filioque Clause for a minute ;) ), believe in the Second Coming. That is not the Rapture, which is a very different theology.

The Rapture theology has been kicking around for several hundred years, but it really got going in the eighteen hundreds. It's not Biblical, in that it applies "signs" from today and cobbles them together with Biblical passages often taken out of context. The Rapture theology essentially states that there will be two Second Comings, one in which the true believers will be taken up to Heaven and then the one with the war of Armageddon. It makes for a good story, but it's not really there in the Bible.

I highly recommend a good book called, A Second Look at the Second Coming. It's from Conciliar Press, an Eastern Orthodox Christian publisher. It's a very thorough look at the entire history of the theology, the make-up of the theology as it's preached today, and why most churches, including the Eastern Orthodox Church, don't believe in it.

[blondeatlast]

185. The vast majority of Christians DON'T believe it, and it is dogma

in very, very few sects.

Not even all Southern Baptists believe it.

[Pikku]

192. I think you're confusing the rapture with the second coming of Christ.

They are NOT the same thing, nor are they supposed to happen at the same time.

The second coming is in the Bible, and a part of most, if not all Christian denominations' belief systems. The rapture is not.
http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[mikedevilsfan]

39. My apoligies

Sorry Lydia.

Where am I getting it? Just from experience. 30 years in the church and in different kinds. And from having many friends in different demominations. Attending end times seminars etc.
Michael

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. Apology accepted!

:hi:

Actually, it's not surprising that they'd believe in the Rapture in End Times Seminars. Isn't that what they're for--promoting the idea of the Rapture?

[mikedevilsfan]

82. not really

There are many Christians who don't believ in it. Some are pre tribulation, a few are mid tribulation and some are post tribulation.
It's an interesting subject to study as long as you don't govern by it.
Michael

[InfoMinister]

28. Well, In The Southeast They Talk About It A Lot

Several preachers claim we're in the final days, etc. I pretty much quit going to church when they started going after my cartoon shows :) I really liked the Smurfs and He-Man back then.

[Individualist]

33. I live in the southeast

and while growing up, I attended a Methodist Church every Sunday. The term "rapture" was never mentioned.

[InfoMinister]

34. I Don't Know About The Methodists

I know that the Baptists talked about it all the time. BTW, did your minister tell you that the Smurfs were satanic?

[Individualist]

38. No

Had he done so, I have no doubt that members of the congregation would have approached him privately and suggested he have a mental health evaluation.

[InfoMinister]

43. Well, I Was Going To One of the Nutball Churches I Guess :-)

However, in Georgia I think that's what most of them are to be honest. One church I go by every day has a sign that says that Terri Schiavo was murdered. The minister from the church goes to the square in Jefferson, a local town about 15 miles from Athens, and preaches to everyone while others hold signs telling people that abortion is murder.

[mikedevilsfan]

41. I'm sure

That doesn't mean that they didn't believe in the imminent return though. It's not something that is emphasised in ever church.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. Jesus himself said that

not even the angels in heaven know when the world will end.

That's why it's presumptuous of us to make baseless predictions about it.

[mikedevilsfan]

81. he did say that

He also said that he would come back like a thief in the night and that 2 people would be farming and one would go and the other would stay.
But his point was to live as if he was to tarry...
Michael

[The Straight Story]

145. He did indeed say we would not know the hour or day

but the whole reason he gave signs was so that we would know it was near. He also said it would be like a woman in labor, the closer together things got and more frequent would be an indication that the time was near.

[beyurslf]

7. I have several friends who are SB and they believe in the Rapture--

even PreTrib just like the LB books. I always think it is funny because they don't really go to church often but they sure believe all the things they were raised to know about the Bible.

[mikedevilsfan]

12. nope

It's not a fringe belief either. Unless you consider the vast majority of evangelicals and protestants "fringe"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. The majority of Protestants do NOT believe in the Rapture

Lutherans don't, Episcopalians don't, Methodists don't, Presbyterians don't, mainstream Baptists don't, UCCs don't. Let's see, have I forgotten any mainstream Protestant groups?

[mikedevilsfan]

30. yes they do

Lutherans don't,
Wrong. My wife's aunt and uncle are Lutheran. SOme believe it some don't. The group "Believer" were also Luthern and they believed it.


Episcopalians don't,
I know they don't preach it, but I'll bet if you asked them.....



Methodists don't,
Yes they do. Ask GWB.

Presbyterians don't,
Not sure about them. They believe in limited atonement or calvanism so it would seem that they do, but you may be right.


mainstream Baptists don't,
Oh yes they most certainly do and people like Charles Stanley preach it rather often.


UCCs don't.
I live near Nashville the UCC capitol of the world. If I had a dollar for every "Jesus is coming soon are you ready sign....."

Let's see, have I forgotten any mainstream Protestant groups?
Yes.
Let's put it this way. If they don't believe in the return of Christ for his Church, what do they believe? If they are preaching "be ready" or "The thief in the night" etc. they believe it. They may not say "rapture" per se, but they believe it.
If itmakes you feel better,Jw's don't.
Some Catholics do, and some don't. Although the Church doesn't talk much about it.
M

[amazona]

62. i'm a presbyterian there is no rapture

Never met a Presbyterian yet who believed in that claptrap. That is strictly for the lower classes, not meaning to sound snotty, but everyone knows only stupid people believe in the Rapture. People who are literate and can read the Gospels know there is no Rapture there. And anyone who "adds a word" to the words of Jesus is condemned to Hell.

There is no Rapture. Claiming such is the fast ticket to damnation.

Sheesh.

I can't be the only person in the south who went to Sunday School. When I was a kid, you were an oddball if you DIDN'T go.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[QC]

76. So the lower classes are stupid? n/t

[mikedevilsfan]

89. but everyone knows only stupid people believe in the Rapture.

Good statement. You just lost all credibility.
Do you also believe in "Limited Atonement" Like Pastor Phelps. How can you be a lefty and he thinks that GWB is a commie!
Oh wait, you seperate the two. Good idea.
M

[blondeatlast]

188. Another Presby here, from the midwest.

Never believed it, never taught it. Also attended, at various times, most of the major Protestant churches.

I had friends who did in other, what I consider pretty out-there sects. These were definitly not "mainstream", at least in the areas I lived in.

[knitter4democracy]

71. They believe in the Second Coming, but not the Rapture.

I posted about it above, and others have been trying to explain it, too. The Rapture theology is not the same as the belief in the Second Coming.

[mikedevilsfan]

106. I agree

they are not the same concept.
The former comes from 2nd thess.
I really don't want to go into a debate, but if you look around there are a bunch of differences in the two. One being where Jesus comes to in the second coming as apposed to meeting his Church in the air.
Michael

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. The return of Christ is not the same as the Rapture

The Rapture is the hare-brained scenario dramatized in the Left Behind books, the idea that the good Christians (i.e. fundamentalists and fundamentalists only) will be taken alive into heaven before the so-called Great Tribulation.

The return of Christ IS a mainstream Protestant doctrine. The Rapture is not.

[Dorian Gray]

186. I think the problem here

is that you are attributing beliefs held by individuals as a doctrine of the church.

I'm Catholic, and I have NO opinion on the Rapture. I think that all this Pre-Trib/Mid-Trib/Post-Trib arguing is fruitless. I do, however, believe in the resurrection of Christ and that He will come back again.

But, I do NOT believe that we will be raptured up out of this world in the blink of an eye. (So, I guess I do have sort of an opinion after all!)

I have some friends who are Catholic who have read the Left Behind series and have fallen for (what I consider) the BS posed in those books. They talk about it as though it will actually come to pass as the book explains. But, their speculation and possibly admitted belief in a future Rapture has absolutely NO bearing on the doctrine or dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

So, you might meet individual parishoners in Lutheran/Episcopalian/Anglican/Presbyterian/Methodist/UCC Churches, and they may say the same thing as the Catholics that I mentioned. After having read some of the many books out there on the subject, they may have a "belief" in the Rapture. But, that is not indicative of the docrtinal beliefs of their church. Their pastors, I am sure, do not preach about Rapture on the pulpit on Sundays. They most likely do not sponsor sessions on the Rapture. The leaders of their Church have not written too many doctrinal works regarding the Rapture.

Because President Bush may believe in the Rapture (which I don't think has been proven anywhere. Just because he courts the votes of the religious right doesn't mean that he necessarily falls for all their doctrine) does not mean that the Methodist Church promulgates Rapture theology.

Now, having said all that, I don't disagree with the OP. I think making fun of religious beliefs will only serve to divide he religious from the Democratic party, and there are many principles that the Democratic party shares with religious Christianity in its true form. (Like helping the needy in our country!) We should be working together.

[Individualist]

16. Where are the stats

to back up your claim that "the vast majority" of protestants believe in the rapture? :crazy:

[mikedevilsfan]

32. No stats

Just from my years of study.
I used to be an eschatology freak.
M

[Individualist]

36. No stats, no links = no credibility nt

[Zenlitened]

40. Bingo.

Also, appeals to rein in the expression of voices on the left = negative credibility.

[mikedevilsfan]

44. What does that mean?

if you doubt my sincerity visit my blog and read your heart out.
I hope you are not implying I am a right wing fascist.
Actually I vote Democratic, but consider myself a socialist.
M

[Zenlitened]

53. It means I think you're using fundie nonsense to take aim at the left.

Call it what you want.

[BigMcLargehuge]

55. DING DING DING!!!!

[mikedevilsfan]

68. Take aim at the left?

I'm probably further left than you are. Unless your a communist that believes in zero private property. In that case I stand corrected.
I would rather argue about this with Hillary in Office than Jeb though. See what I am saying.
M

[The Magistrate]

151. It Is Doubtful, Sir, If You Are Further To The Left Than Many Here

It is essential, in the current situation, to effectively attack the fundamentalist theocrats and dominionists sparking the reactionary right in our country today. These people are, and by virtue of their religious convictions, traitors to the idea of democracy, and to the United States. Effective opposition requires the affixing of derogatory labels, that will encourage people to disassociate themselves from this scum. It is essential that Christians who do not share the political convictions of these traitorous theocrats cease identifying with, and engaging in any defense of, the leading spirits of the enemy. The belief in Rapture is a simple-minded vengeance fantasy, as generally purveyed, and is something very few will actually own up to believing in, or identifying with, if confronted with the actual character of the belief. It is, therefore, tailor-made as a vehicle for propaganda attack and derogatory labelling. It ought to be employed, and pressed widely, and driven home past the hilt.

[mikedevilsfan]

161. Nice tirade but

Don't you believe in seperating C+S?
Why does this make me not as left as most here? I have already said I am a Socialist who votes Democratic.
If we had a third viable Socialist party in this country I would vote that way. But oh wait, I believe the the Christian God and the Rapture, so that doesn't count.
Michael

[The Magistrate]

What You Have Said, Sir, About Your Personnal Conduct

Makes no material difference whatever to the weighty matters being discussed, or to the adviseability of the course you are urging on the members of this forum, and on various liberal, left, and progressive organs. The world does not revolve around any individual, nor will mass political lines ever be tailored to suit the isolated case.

The persons we oppose are moving to make the state an arm of their church. This must be opposed, without stint or limit. If you wish to do something useful, you might try engaging rightist fundamentalists on the various contradictions between their political actions and the principles of the Gospels as you see them. The course you are urging amounts to demanding one side in alley fight adhere to Queensberry rules while the other equips itself with baseball bats and garbage can lids. That will never do, Sir.

On a small side note, Sir: you are dountless inder the impression that to call something a tirade is to belittle and insult, but fortunately for you you have struck here upon a person who views it as a compliment....

[mikedevilsfan]

171. OK

Makes no material difference whatever to the weighty matters being discussed, or to the adviseability of the course you are urging on the members of this forum, and on various liberal, left, and progressive organs. The world does not revolve around any individual, nor will mass political lines ever be tailored to suit the isolated case.
I agree the idea of sepration of Church and state is a bigger concept than either you or I.

The persons we oppose are moving to make the state an arm of their church. This must be opposed, without stint or limit.
Agreed.

If you wish to do something useful, you might try engaging rightist fundamentalists on the various contradictions between their political actions and the principles of the Gospels as you see them.
I do, until I blue in the face. Sometimes with sucess, often in vain. But my gripe here is with the Majority Report's use of a general term.


The course you are urging amounts to demanding one side in alley fight adhere to Queensberry rules while the other equips itself with baseball bats and garbage can lids. That will never do, Sir.
Yes, but those who are right always seem to prevail. Look at the cival rights movement.


On a small side note, Sir: you are dountless inder the impression that to call something a tirade is to belittle and insult, but fortunately for you you have struck here upon a person who views it as a compliment....

I got that impression kind sir.
Michael

[The Magistrate]

201. The Idea, Sir, That Good Always Prevails

And that regardless of the methods employed to oppose, and to secure, its triumph, is one of the great blinding jokes humanity has inflicted on itself. No study of history and humanity will ever disclose an iota of truth to the idea: the fact is that evil tends to prevail, and that imagining otherwise is one of the principle reasons it does so.

"This is the best world possible: everything in it is a necessary evil."

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

189. For The Magistrate:

:applause:

[mikedevilsfan]

42. well

You don't have to believe me. It's not important.

I will say this. I am a PhD candidate in English (my spelling give it away) and I don'tmake blanket statements without knowing what I am saying. The very idea of Christ coming back for his church and the tribulation goes all the way back to the New Testament. Even the apostles told each other that "he was coming back soon, be ready." They said this as "encouragment" not as a weapon to use to drill for oil in natural habitats. Can get where I am going with this?
Michael

[Individualist]

46. See post #36

You're right about one thing; I don't have to believe anything you say.

[mikedevilsfan]

63. Thats OK

I don't believe half the things I say!
M

[mitchtv]

3. yes, I prefer "Tali-bornagain"

or "Fristian", or "Christian wrong"
often I use "so called Christian"

[Maat]

8. Or Extreme Religious Right ...

or theocratic right or .. Religious Wrongies ... or ..

[mikedevilsfan]

13. I Iike those

"Fristians" is awesome. He is a Moromon I believe.
Reagan was a presb.
Bush Sr. was a Episc. and a Free mason.
Nixon was a Quaker (explain that to me someone).
Actually Democrats have been more fundementalist (with the exception of Dubya) in the last 30 years. Just goes to show that we don't wear our bliefs on our sleeves.
M

[Ms. Toad]

93. Nixon, explained

There are four relatively major branches of Friends. Nixon was a member of a branch (FUM) that is pretty far from Friends' historical faith and practice. Here is the website for his home church - see if it looks like what you imagine a Quaker meeting website would look like:

http://www.ewfriends.org/

On the East coast, FUM Friends and one of the two branches that you would recognize as Friends (FGC) intermingle (with some local meetings having membership in both FGC and FUM). Generally, the farther west you go (and Nixon's church was in California), the closer FUM Friends are to Evangelical Friends (which look pretty much like any other evangelical church).

[mikedevilsfan]

112. No they didn't look like the Quakers I know...

Guy looks like he still has that old 70's polyester suit.
We just had some Quakers for peace down here who got kicked out of a local highschool for being "anti-American" and "anti military"
It was on Michael Moore's site for a couple of days.
I guess if you think about it, being anti war is not really an American concept.
Michael

[blondeatlast]

190. Edit: self delete. Misunderstood intention in the post. My bad. nt

[Taxloss]

9. The term "Rapture" is NOT the same as Buddhist or Pantheist beliefs

as the "Rapture Right" would have it.

1. "Rapture" in that sense presupposes a linear view of history - it has a set beginning, and a set end (the end of the world, apparently quite soon). Buddhists and Pantheists have a cyclical view of history.

2. "Rapture" also presupposes limited distribution of salvation, according to unreasonable adherence to specific dogma. Buddhism and Pantheism do not.

3. "Rapture" indicates group acceptance, not individual acceptance. As in: "You're OK because you're in the club; you're automatically rejected because you're not. Not other factors apply."

I don;t see the term as offensive in the least. I see the eschatological worldview as offensive and very dangerous.

[Zenlitened]

18. Well said!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

People grooving to the idea that the world is about to go to shit SHOULD be marginalized. It's spooky. Spooky, and dangerous to the rest of us.

[Taxloss]

20. Thanks Zen.

Here's hoping there are enough people out there who AREN'T praying that we wipe ourselves out.

[mikedevilsfan]

47. That is so ignorant

How can you miss the fact that someone who believes in the rapture:
1. Started this thread bcause he wants to get more Christians to vote Democratic.
2.seperates his politics and religion like the founding forfathers did.
3. Doesn't pray that we wipe oursleves out!!????

You need to face facts, we need more votes, not less. I don't care waht you believe as long as you are not a warmonger and won't sends kids to fight for oil. See the bigger picture.
The right has had a field day making us infightlike this. It's time to save our planet now, whether Jesus or buddah comes back.
Michael

[Taxloss]

174. First, don't call me ignorant.

Feel free to attack my arguments and views. Do not attack me.

Second, please do not feel I am attacking you. I am not.

Third, let me assure you of this: the Democratic party will never, ever win again if it lets the fundamentalist Rapture Right set the terms and conditions of the debate. They will NEVER vote Democrat, and the Democrats must appeal to the moderate Republicans who are waking up to the threat that this hard core of loonies pose and should rightly be horrified, ashamed and frightened by the hold they have over their president.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zenlitened]

23. It has everything to do with politics. Religion and politics...

... are one and the same in America today. That's just a plain fact.

[mikedevilsfan]

48. OK

Whose fault is that. Not Dems.
Then lets change it together.
What do you say?
M

[Zenlitened]

58. I think I'll just say...

... g'night, mike.

:eyes:

[mikedevilsfan]

90. That is...

If the moron in office doesn't push the red button by his bed.....

[Zenlitened]

113. *snicker*

Go, devils.

No, seriously. I'm rooting for the devils. At least they're honest about themselves.

[mikedevilsfan]

117. your not talking bout NJ right.

If your are good. Some hockey would beinfit you.
If your talking about devil, devils they are not honest. They come like "angels of light" Sort of like Sean Hannity, GWB or anyone who says "God" and then does devilish things.
Michael

[Taxloss]

29. Belief in the "End Times" is very dangerous.

At the very least, it undermines the notion of long-term planning, and sinks good, progressive leftists like yourself into an unproductive state of expectation. At the worst, in the hands of the Rapture Right, they will happily attempt to precipitate the end of the world because they see nothing but benefit from it.

Do you think you would benefit from the end of the world? Because in the long run, you don't have to worry about the atheists, do you? That's why I find it offensive. The world will only end if normal humans living on it try to make it end. That is what makes this "End Times" philosophy so very, very worrying to me.

[mikedevilsfan]

50. Ok then answer this

At the very least, it undermines the notion of long-term planning, and sinks good, progressive leftists like yourself into an unproductive state of expectation. At the worst, in the hands of the Rapture Right, they will happily attempt to precipitate the end of the world because they see nothing but benefit from it.

Do you think you would benefit from the end of the world? Because in the long run, you don't have to worry about the atheists, do you? That's why I find it offensive. The world will only end if normal humans living on it try to make it end. That is what makes this "End Times" philosophy so very, very worrying to me.

I see that and agree. But what about the original Christian Church that believed this. If a person believes that the end is near, wouldn't they want to help people around them. It seems to me that those in power who profess the end being near are using it to grab all they can. Can you find me one verse in the Bible that supports such an animalistic philosophy?
Michael

[Taxloss]

173. Of course there's no Christian justification for it,

just as the Rapture Right is not using its absurd beliefs to help anyone, but merely to insulate itself in self-righteouness. The earliest Christians, right up to the Reformation and enlightenment, believed in salvation through faith alone, and thus surplus production and capital was used to appease God (that is, given to the church and used to build cathedrals) rather than reinvested in society. Although some of this money went into charitable works and scholarship, a vast amount of it went into enriching a priesthood that, by the 16th century, had grown so absurdly corrupt it kicked off the Reformation and 200 years of bloody war.

Belief in the End of the World as the Rapture Rightists understand it is as dangerous in public life as, say, a belief in human sacrifice to appease an angry sun-god.

[Redstone]

25. Damn. You nailed it, as you tend to do.

And your Item 3 elucidates the exact reason why we should NOT support the OP's request.

Redstone

[mikedevilsfan]

51. well you can

Further alienate potential voters by insulting thier belifs then.
Why not also say that those who like hockey are apes and don't belong in Democratic party. Then you can sit around and wonder why we keep losing elections.

We are the ones that are right, not them.
Michael

[Redstone]

69. Hey, you're the one with an exclusionary belief,

so don't bitch if people who are excluded from your "Rapture" are skeptical. Or hostile.

You're the one who asked for help from "non-believers;" the same people who, under your system of belief, are doomed and unworthy.

Do I detect a bit of a double standard at work here? Kinda like former plantation owners in the South asking for sympathy from their former slaves after the Civil War.

Redstone

[mikedevilsfan]

91. That makes no sense

: (

[silverlib]

10. Here's my e-mail

As a Christian who thinks the rapture is a ridiculous interpretation of the Bible and used to put "the fear of God" into followers, I would ask that, even so, the use of "Rapture Right" stop being used to describe right wingers, as belief in the rapture is a belief of a good number of Christian Democrats. Even though I may not agree with them, I don't wish to have them pushed out of our Party, just as I think it is an atrocity when they are pushed out a Baptist Church. Please rethink this wording. Thanks - and I love AAR!

[mikedevilsfan]

52. That's awesome

Now that we got that settled. I have a whole list of problems with the evangelica church ; )
Namely we don't know how to unite with those who don't belive excaclty as we do.
Like poverty. Who cares if a person is a Muslim or a Christian if they are talking about ending poverty?
Some causes are universal.
Michael
PS thanks for the e-mail!

[DanCa]

19. Rev. Al Sharpton says :

The Christian Right are not the right Christians.

[BigMcLargehuge]

45. Grow a thicker skin and

learn to deal with language you don't particularly like. As if AA or anyone else should alter their broadcast language to appease a gang of deluded end-of-the-world nutcases.

[mikedevilsfan]

57. It's not thick skin I am worried about

no matter what they say, it won't change what I believe politically. We all aren't going to agree on everything.
What I am worried about is the on the fence Christian that just had a talk with his Conservative pastor who tolm him/her that "all lefties are anti Jesus" and then hear's The Majority Report confirm this.

Let me ask you would you rather have a Southern Baptist in office that belived that Jesus was going to judge how he treated the poor
or
An athiest who had no accountabilty to anyone. (not to say that all athiest feel this way they don't). My guess is you would rather have someone who would go after corporations, protect the environment and not bomb brown people.
Michael

[BigMcLargehuge]

67. An atheist

because he/she wouldn't govern based on the appeasement of some mythical supernatural entity. But that can't happen in this country because whack job end-timers, dominionists, creationists, and anti-intellectuals have worked hard to make the general population as moronic as humanly possible to further the belief in their hocus pokus malarkey.

Everyone is welcome in the Democratic party, Atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Wiccan, Hindu, Buddhist... but it's only one group that wrings their fucking hands over every mention of their faith that isn't reverential.

You to be a Christian to be a Democrat, or a Democrat to be a Christian. But it would sure help everyone else in the party if the vocal minority of woo woos would shut the fuck up and work towards making the party stronger and toward real social justice without dragging their cosmology along with them everywhere they go and trotting it out like a little kid with a new Hot Wheels car.

[mikedevilsfan]

72. You seem angry

Your talking about interpretation.
Jesus himself was socialistic and inclusive. I'm more worried about angry people like yourself. What are you angry about.
Who cares what people believe in their personal lives as long as we don't have a neo- fascist running the counrty.
Michael

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikedevilsfan]

94. put aside your "issues" for a second

What's more important to you:
Being right about religion and being vindicated
or
Having someone in office that will allow you to bleive what you want.

In case you didn'y notice, when Clinton THE RAPTURIST was in office there was no mass hysteria going on. It's not the fault of Christians or the Bible it's the Right who pimps these ideas out. Do you really think these right wingers are Christians who believe in the Bible????
Michael
Bye the way that anger will eat you up.

[BigMcLargehuge]

108. what's more important to me...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

There, it's in bold.

you said "In case you didn'y notice, when Clinton THE RAPTURIST was in office there was no mass hysteria going on. It's not the fault of Christians or the Bible it's the Right who pimps these ideas out. Do you really think these right wingers are Christians who believe in the Bible????"

I don't give a fuck who is in office as long as they are working towards the betterment of the people of the US and the world. I don't care what Clinton believed the same way I don't give two shits and a side of fries what Bush believes. Maybe you're a lot younger than I originally thought, but this end times bullshit has been polluting American culture since the 1970s. It's worse now because Bush has bent over backwards to repay all the favors he received from the mega churches who mobilized their zombie-like communcants to vote rethug because they hate gay people, abortions, and evolution.

But this isn't about that... this is about you wringing your hands over the choice of language on an Air America radio program. Let's not lose track of things.

Don't like the language on Air America? Do what an atheist would do - change the channel rather than try to force your narrow minded understanding of the world and how it works on the rest of us.

you said: "Bye the way that anger will eat you up."

Anger is power when directed properly.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BigMcLargehuge]

How the hell does Air America breach the separation of church and state?

they are a private business, they are a state run busines not a government agency.

It isn't about getting votes, at least not your original post, it was pissing and moaning about language choices.

Change the channel, learn to live with it, or prepare to be argued with.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BigMcLargehuge]

137. yes and the rest of we all powerful atheists are actively seeking your

destruction...

:eyes:

[mikedevilsfan]

139. Good luck

with that.
M

[Misunderestimator]

181. What HE said!

All of the above! :thumbsup:

[BeHereNow]

49. Welcome to DU- "Rapture" is NOT in the Bible!

Rapture is a FALSE x-tian concept. The word
does not appear anywhere in the scripture, so
I have no problem with it being associated with
the Evangelical left-behind end times deceivers,

Also, I do not believe Christians need to be "won" over.
True Christians have NOT been deceived and as
promised in the scriptures, have been given the
gift of discernment.

God's words, not mine.
BHN

[mikedevilsfan]

59. Well

The word Trinity doesn't appear in the Bible either.
M

[BeHereNow]

70. And?

What are you saying?
BHN

[mikedevilsfan]

122. I'm saying

The word doesn't have to be in the Bible for the concept to be "mainstream."

Unless you think the Trinity is not mainstream. But let me ask you:
DO you understand why I posted this in the first place?
Michael

[knitter4democracy]

79. You might want to re-read some church history on that.

The Church put the Bible together. The Church decided on the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, hammering it out over the major church councils. The Church has never condoned the Rapture theology, believing it to be a twisted and dangerous form of the doctrine of the Second Coming.

Part of the problem is that we have Christians who don't know their own history or the history of their beliefs. They listen to charming pastors who make it all sound good but don't know if it's right or not.

I should know: I was a Nazarene for many years (same church as James Dobson, btw) and even went to a Nazarene college. Things started not making sense when I took Christian Beliefs after a semester in Russia studying the language and culture, including the Russian Orthodox Church. The more questions I asked, the less the answers made sense. Don't just read what they recommend: read it all. Read many books on church history--the required history textbook at my college was chock-full of error on other churches and conveniently left out some really important stuff.

[mikedevilsfan]

109. My wife and her family are nazarenes too.

It doens't matter if you agree or not. I could make a case for the rapture based only on the Bible, who cares what theologians say anyway. There is also sufficent evidence for a Triune God.
But that's neither here nor ther. I din't start this post becuse I wanted everyone to believe as I do.
Bye the way please don't blame the Nazarenes for Dobson. I know plenty of nice Nazarens that aren't involved in "Justice Sunday."
Michael

[knitter4democracy]

111. Oh, I know--I do too.

I'm just saying that it's a pretty conservative church. There are many Nazarenes who practically worship Dobson, though.

The thing is, the Bible can be used for anything. Even Satan knows the Bible and quoted it to our Lord during his forty days in the wilderness. Just because it can be used to make a case for something doesn't mean it's right.

I understood the OP, and I agree to a point. There are many Christians who think they believe in the Rapture theology, but they really don't know what it is or its history. It just sounds good and right, so they go along with it. I think what we need to do is figure out a way to help explain what it really is, why most churches don't promote it, and why it is a dangerous and dazzling heresy.

[mikedevilsfan]

123. on Dobson

Remember when Dobson's worst offense was "you should spank your child." God that seems like a million years ago. Why is he now a politician?

You notice that Bill Frist is a Mormon and in private Dobson would call him mislead and part of a cult, but when it comes to politics boy, they are brothers.
Michael

[knitter4democracy]

179. That's true.

I think it's all about power and the love of money and pride. Dobson has gotten a big head with all of this, and he's headed for a fall, if human history is true at all.

[amazona]

54. sorry as a mainstream Christian background I don't agree

The Rapture is not in the Bible and it was not part of any Christian religion except maybe a very few tiny cults prior to Hal Lindsey.

Anyone who believes in the Rapture is damned and if making mock of them wakes them up to their foolishness, you are saving a soul. Humoring sick, ill, and misguided people does not work. Enabling is cruel. It causes them to give up a greater portion of their life to their disease.

I am sorry. There is nothing wrong with making mock of those who believe in the Rapture. If they are real Christians, they would want to know the truth and one day they'll read the Bible and find out anyway.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[mikedevilsfan]

61. So then ...

Salvation is based on your feelings about the end times? What church believes this?
Hal Lindsay didn't start it- the apostles did. And the first major reference was from the Scofield Bible.
Michael

[BeHereNow]

73. 1 John 4

"4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:
because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and
the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God
heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we
the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."

I really wouldn't worry about it Mike.
God is either omnipotent, or He isn't.
No doubt in my mind which one applies.
BHN

[mikedevilsfan]

97. OK

I'mnot worried about the concept. I am worried about Right wing pundints saying that left wing pundints make fun of Christians and it being true.
There is plenty of room for all here.
Michael

[BeHereNow]

102. Are you in Christ or "of the world?"

No one "in Christ" gives a flying fuck what they say.
I sure don't.
I know that HE that is IN me is greater that
them.
So why are YOU so worried?
Being that you claim to be a Christian and all...
BHN

[mikedevilsfan]

125. oh God

What am I worried about?
The only thing I am worried about is getting more votes and keeping these issues sperate from the state.
Michael

[BeHereNow]

128. Guess your God isn't big enough then?

Mine is.
I don't worry about such things.
I know who is in charge and find it surprising
that another Christian does.
Are you a Christian or not?
BHN

[mikedevilsfan]

135. yes

But I am not here trying to promote my particular brand of theology.
I am trying to promote more tolerance and hence get more votes for our side.
Michael

[amazona]

74. you can't quote a single apostle

..who describes the Rapture. You know it, and I know it, and now the rest of the internet knows it, so get over yourself, 'k?

If you really believe, before you make up anything else, I would consider this from the Bible:

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.

22:19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book

There is no Rapture in the Gospels, and IF you have read the Gospels you know that. If you have not actually read it and have been following the words of false prophets, I suggest you do so
before you bring down unnecessary grief on yourself.

The Rapture is a chimera for the stupid people. The apostles had nothing to do with it, since they were not around when this whole fakery was invented to fool idiots.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[mikedevilsfan]

130. Ok then

How is Christ going to bring his Church with him. What's the whole bit in 2nd thess. about.
It's a moot point anyway. I didn't start this to convert people to the rapture.
Michael

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. The Biblical passage that the fundie cultists ran away with to

cook up the doctrine of the Rapture was the one about how there will be two men in a field, one will be taken and one will be left. Two women at the mill, one will be taken and one will be left.

You know what that actually sounds like? It sounds like exactly what happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where people were vaporized or survived, depending on whether they were next to a window or not or whether they were standing in the middle of the street or just around the corner.

I saw a TV documentary on this in Japan on the 40th anniversary of Hiroshima. They told of cases like a bank that was having an early morning meeting at the moment the atom bomb struck. The people who were sitting in front of windows were vaporized instantly, while the people who were sitting in the shadows suffered burns but survived.

I immediately thought of that Biblical passage.

So the Biblical passage could just as easily be a prophecy of nuclear war as a prophecy of the Rapture.

By the way, the Left Behind books are total fiction written by a man who has been on the Moonie payroll since 1982.

[faithnotgreed]

66. i believe in the rapture

i kinda see your argument that if people are listening and hear the very real facts and arguments against this fascist regime then they may get tripped up if they hear something against traditional religion

im not sure of their context so i cant comment about this specifically but i wanted to express my support for your open minded request for people to get involved

i will say though that those of us on the left who believe in Christ do have a harder time with how to convey what the hard right is doing since they pervert God and the Bible in public. its hard to even think about what they must be like in private because their public face is quite offensive enough
they are not any kind of Christian as i understand it though that is not mine to judge

what i do feel is that they should not be called Christians. i find that offensive to Christs teachings. what they should be called i honestly do not know...

[mikedevilsfan]

77. I agree

unfortunately we are in the minority. Just as many so called Christians would rather listen to Sean Hannity because he tips his hat to "God" every now and then, than someone like Jim Wallis who actually believes.....
I say all this because everyone in my family are on the right. If they knew the truth they would turn from the greed mongers.
It's kind of hard to do with people on the left calling them wacko's because of their faith though.
Michael

[faithnotgreed]

96. well mike we are a tremendously large tent as you point out

in your original post

and with that everyone is going to get called some name because there is no way we will all agree. we cover way too many issues and so many of these are basic rights that need protecting

as i see it that is one of the primary reasons that we are seen as scattered or disorganized. precisely because we appeal to all the people who dont believe as current republicans do and in this country the only politically viable (electable) alternative is democratic. that is just fact even though there are millions who want an alternative

its a catch 22. i think its unfortunate that people get turned off and start in-fighting because of one or two issues. but the truth is that these one or two issues may be the very things that keep people politically involved so its a very hard line to walk
we want to embrace anyone we can (esp because the hard right is so exclusive) so its just never going to be a completely cohesive group

[mikedevilsfan]

98. true but

there is no reason we can't be PC about Christians also. We shouldn't make generalizations about anyone. Right?
Michael

[faithnotgreed]

101. can you explain what you mean by pc and generalizations? thanks

[mikedevilsfan]

141. Ok

When you say "Rapture Right" you are mixing a religious concept (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT'S TRUE OR NOT)<meant for the others, not you> with a political one.
Rapture Right is no different than:
Pagan Left
The Soul Sleep Right
Commie Universalists
Facist baptisers who prefer dunking instead of sprinkling
Great spirit in the sky socialists
Anti-Trinitarian Right wingers Etc.
Rapture Right is just as silly as the other ones.
Generalizations in general suck.
There are people on this posting who, like me believe in the concept of the Rapture and are not even close to being on the right.
Does that make sense?
Michael

[Zen Democrat]

85. Sorry. The "Rapture" in not biblical. It was first thought up by a

Kansas preacher in the late 1800's. It gained hold in the Southern fundamentalist churches and now its spreading like some Biblical Truth, which it's not. It's just a theory, or supposition, or imagination. Millions of Christians do NOT believe in this rapture.

[BeHereNow]

92. Agreed- "Rapture" is NOT a religious term.

It is false doctrine.
Period.
The minute I hear a so called "Christian" talking
about the "Rapture" I know I am not talking to
a Christian, but someone who has been deceived.

I repeat: 1 John 4:

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them:
because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and
the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God
heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we
the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Signing off of this thread, because it is NOT a Christian thread
but a wolf in sheep's clothing thread.
BASTA-
BHN

[ultraist]

95. I don't think Methodists or Episcopalians believe in the "Rapture"

Liberal Episcopalians do not interpret the Bible literally and do not consider Revelations to be a literal prediction. In fact, they don't really use the OT. I was always under the impression that it was the fundamentalists that use the OT and literally interpreted the Bible.

Do Catholics believe in the "Rapture?"

[mikedevilsfan]

100. Whoa whoa Slow down there

there is a big difference between liberal Christians and Liberalism.
I am talking about keeping the two seperate. Doesn't the constitution say something about that? Although Falwell will never tell you this....
M

[ultraist]

107. Point being, it is NOT a majority of Christians that believe in it!

There are MILLIONS of liberal Christians. By that, I mean the CHURCHES are considered liberal. For instance, a liberal Episcopalian church does NOT teach that "Gays are sinners who will burn in hell" and they do NOT believe in the "Rapture."

NO ONE has substantiated that a majority of Christians believe in the "Rapture." I highly doubt that they do.

[mikedevilsfan]

146. Well we disagree on that

Who cares. Even if only a hundred people believe in it-- the term rature right is still a generalization.
Michael

[The Magistrate]

159. All Statements Are Generalizations, Sir

That is not a useful objection.

The fact is that, among the most committed enemies of left and progressive ideals and programs, persons who believe in the Rapture and imminent End of Days are numbered far in excess of their proportion in the population at large. Many people doubtless believe the Christ will come again in some manner, but not nearly so many believe it will be in the style popular among fanatic believers in Revelations, and the great bulk of those who do not are generally shocked at learning the details of what those who do believe. This makes it an excellent wedge tool for political agitation.

[mikedevilsfan]

163. That it does

I agree with the wedge issue statement. But please explain how three Southern Baptists who are amoung the greatest Americans ever fit into your argument:
Jimmy Carter
Bill Clinton
Martin Luther King
Please explain this.
And thanks for calling me Sir three times. (although when my students do it I feel old)
Michael

[The Magistrate]

168. They Vote, Or Voted, Democrat, Sir

How, then, do they fit into your's?

The fact is that members of the "Rapture Right" are not going to vote for left or progressive candidates, since their religious convictions teach them to associate such persons with sexual immorality, a thing they consider the sole proper focus of moral concern. Nothing can be done about this; it is a given of the situation, like the location of hills and sloughs on a potential field of battle.

Do not imagine, Sir, that political battle is solely a process of making nice and not offending; it is far from that. The key to the process is choosing whom to offend, and selecting targets for demonization that a great many people will agree, if pressed, are wierd, wrong, sick, evil, or otherwise unfit for consideration as members of a group one wants to associate oneself with. The "Rapture Right" is an excellent target, and will be assailed by any left or progressive person with the least interest in defeating the extreme elements of reaction currently in sharge of our nation's national government.

"And we read from pleasant Bibles that are bound in blood and skin, but the wilderness is gathering back its children once again."

[mikedevilsfan]

172. I disagree

The fact is that members of the "Rapture Right" are not going to vote for left or progressive candidates, since their religious convictions teach them to associate such persons with sexual immorality, a thing they consider the sole proper focus of moral concern. Nothing can be done about this; it is a given of the situation, like the location of hills and sloughs on a potential field of battle.

I think your wrong about this. I think many Christians realize that making war for oil, stealing from the poor and giving to the rich, destroying social security is not exactly Biblical.
Lot's of Christians vote on wedge issues like abortion. Well Bush has the house, and the senate and the presidency how often is he talking about abortion now?
It's because I think we can reach these people with the truth is precisely why we shouldn't belittle them with stupid terminology.


Do not imagine, Sir, that political battle is solely a process of making nice and not offending; it is far from that. The key to the process is choosing whom to offend, and selecting targets for demonization that a great many people will agree, if pressed, are wierd, wrong, sick, evil, or otherwise unfit for consideration as members of a group one wants to associate oneself with. The "Rapture Right" is an excellent target, and will be assailed by any left or progressive person with the least interest in defeating the extreme elements of reaction currently in sharge of our nation's national government.

Well again I disagree. It's more than just the terms it's a semiotic approach that is stilled in hostility. Like I said before there is a movement brewing of people who realize what is going on is dead wrong. Look at Jim Wallis book _God's Politics_ number one on the NY Times Best seller list. Why is that? who's reading it. Christians are. Are we going to tap into that crowd and say "yes there is something wrong, lets fix it together" or "well you believe in a silly concept like the rapture, go away while we pontificate in our little circle." Seems like we have a lot to lose.

Michael

[The Magistrate]

196. You May Disagree All You Like, Sir

It will not alter the nature of the things we are discussing one whit.

The denizens of the "Rapture Right" are engaged in a determined attempt to foist their view of a divine plan on the rest of us: they are not in the slightest bit interested in any other modification of society. They concieve that if this is done, all will be well owing to divine intervention. They are not in the least interested in things like "war for oil" or the class war of the rich against the poor.

Electoral politics in this country is an exercise in defining, even forcing, group identity. For this purpose, Sir, enemies are needed, since persons react much more reliably and strongly against things than for them. It is impossible to study the political life of this country in any depth and come to any other conclusion. The "Rapture Right" must be demonized, and made an object of ostracization. Those to whom matters of social justice, and the doctrines of the Beatitudes, matter, must choose between identification with End Times fanatics, or with the progressive and left political elements that value social justice. If they would rather identify with the "Rapture Right" because that claims a color of Christianity, then they have no commitment to social justice, but rather a commitment to religious fanaticism and theocracy.

"They say in Harlan County, there are no neutrals there. You'll either be a Union man, or a thug for J. H. Blair. Which side are you on?"

[Pikku]

103. Belief in the "rapture" is not mainline Christianity in any form!!!

"Rapture" Christians are the minority for the simple reason that the "rapture" they espouse is not mentioned in the Bible.

Google "dispensationalism." http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html

The "rapture" is not in the Bible in any literal way. In fact, a lot of wishful interpretation of a few verses of scripture is required to see any "rapture" taking place. Google "John Nelson Darby." The "rapture" doesn't date back further than the 1800's.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/

This site takes apart the "Left behind" books. It explains why dispensationalism is not only NOT Christianity, but dangerous. Dispensationalists who embrace a POV like that in the "Left Behind" books are afraid of death, are inherently exclusionary and punitive in their religious outlook, and wish, most of all to be proven right, spiritually. "You'll all be sorry someday... " is the sum and total of their theological outlook. It's a pouting, juvenile attitude. "We were right, and you were wrong. We'll be cloud hopping in heaven while you'll be gnashing your teeth on earth, after the rapture, since god loves us, and not you."

The author of slacktivist is an evangelical Christian himself. He notes that using the "Left Behind" mentality as a typical representation of protestant (or even evangelical) Christianity is like using the platform of Lyndon LaRouche to represent the Democratic party. He goes on to note that what is most insidious about the LB books is that people (including the mainstream press) assume that the "Christianity" represented in the books is Biblical literalism. It is not. It is Christ's message twisted beyond recognition.

I think that the term "Rapture Right" is tremendously appropriate, because it recognizes members of the group for what they do and don't believe. They DO believe that prosperity in this world is proof that Jesus loves them. They DO believe that they, and only they, are right, and are certain that Jesus will agree with them.

They DON'T believe in most of the new testament, like the parts where Jesus orders people to help the poor and oppressed, where he consorts with thieves, prostitutes and <gasp> tax collectors, and where he tells people that they cannot judge others.

In short, they believe totally in what they wish the Bible WOULD say, and not at all with what it DOES say. They are the opposite of biblical literalists.

Ironically, dispensationalists don't identify at all with the hypocrites and/or Pharisees. but mainstream Christians of any flavor can see the connection instantly.

Seriously, read the site.
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/

(for more twisted-but-politically-influential "Christianity" see http://www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html )


http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/

[ultraist]

114. Exactly! Mainline and Liberal wings do NOT believe in the "Rapture"

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi.htm

Today, there are many ways of classifying the over 1,000 Christian faith groups in North America:

By denomination

Into three or four meta-groups (e.g. Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Anglican),

By theological belief system (Calvinism, Arminianism, etc.)

By religious family, (Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, etc.), and


By "wing." The conservative, mainline, and liberal wings of Protestantism are listed below.

[BeHereNow]

116. Great Post!

Thanks for the slacktivist link-
bookmarking for SURE!
And I agree- "Rapture right" is an extremely appropriate
term for the x-tians- doesn't bother this Christian in the LEAST.
It acutally emphasizes the falsity of their so called "faith."
BHN

[mikedevilsfan]

119. Well then

Thanks for the slacktivist link-
bookmarking for SURE!
And I agree- "Rapture right" is an extremely appropriate
term for the x-tians- doesn't bother this Christian in the LEAST.
It acutally emphasizes the falsity of their so called "faith."
BHN

Well then keep alienating people while professing a separation of Church and State. Be a hypocrite. Belittle all those who don't believe how you do and then we'll go have some coffee in 2008 and talk about how Jeb Bush just destroyed the last natural habitat and how we still need more votes.
Michael

[BeHereNow]

126. Look Mike- As far a politics and faith go-

I don't mix them at all.
You are doing that one all by yourself here.
There is absolutely NO need, as I have TRIED
to point out to you with scripture to worry
about how Christians will act in ANY area
of their lives.
God's word, not mine.
Why are YOU so doubtful of God and his church?
You actually think He needs your help in
guiding His children?
I find that attitude extremely UN-Christian.
Either God is omnipotent or He is not.
I know how true Christians feel about that fact,
and frankly I do not know ONE true Christain
that feels "we" need to "win over" other Christians.
The whole notion is an oxymoron and blasphemous
as to WHO God is and his power in our lives.

BHN

[mikedevilsfan]

138. Go back

And re-read my origianl post.
I stand by it, and think what they said is offensive and a generalization. I am still more concerned about how it offends the potential voter than I am how it "hurts my feeling." I keep listing to them anyway, they have a great show and it's informative.
But they still, shouldn't alienate people. Espescially when we are the ones with the 49%.
Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

104. My first ever post start

and it has a bunch of replies!
By the way did anyone here call that Baptist Church that kicked out their members? I have been trying for 2 days and can't even get to their answering machine.
I hear the pastor is in hiding.
Michael

[faithnotgreed]

118. yea stuff like this tends to bring responses

as long as people are open minded and communicate in an honest and respectful way then we really all can get along no matter the topic
i really believe that

[mikedevilsfan]

121. Well then this post is disconcerting

This is a perfect example of how devided we really are.
We have one group interested in more votes and another interested in devinding up real Christians and fake ones by there belief in the end times (by all accounts a minor point).
I hope we get it together for 2008.
Michael

[faithnotgreed]

124. heres to 2006 and beyond.

we really do have to come together which is partially what i was referring to in another post.
sometimes all of us get bogged down in one issue and prior to election we saw a lot of that on this board. someone or other pissed off because of something which was understandable but as i also said we currently have a 2 party system and until we can get something else off the ground we are fairly stuck with each other!

and sadly - anything is preferable to what we have now. lets all come together in love and we cant lose

[ultraist]

129. I don't see that way

It's more like we have a group of extremist religious nuts who are pushing for a theocracy and a group of people who believe in seperation of church and state and freedom of religion.

Radical extremist religious zealots are NOT going to vote Democrat and Democrats are opposed to legislating their beliefs.

[mikedevilsfan]

132. Which brings us full circle

Sam and Janeane did breech the speration of Church and state by their comments and should not say it. Leave religion at home and to your own understanding. This is why I originally made this post.
Michael

[The Magistrate]

160. Nonesense, Sir

Private persons without government office cannot do that. When the "Rapture Right" ceases to attempt enforcing its religious views on the rest of our citizenry, then we can go back to viewing these things as purely private matters.

[More Than A Feeling]

131. I like the term "Mad Dog Fundamentalist" myself

I think it describes them perfectly.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

136. The LEFT did not politicize Rapture theology...the RIGHT did

It is no secret that some religious rightists want to help fulfill prophecy concerning the Rapture - the rebuilding and subsequent destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, for example - in order to bring about its onset. (edited to add) To that end they attempt to influence policy concerning Israel and the Middle East.

I myself consider Rapture theology to be treasonous.

To hope and pray for any event that would bring about the destruction of the United States?

To hope and pray for any event that would result in the suffering and death of millions of Americans?

Treason. Pure and simple.

[mikedevilsfan]

142. none of that makes sense

I believe in the rapture and don't
1. ever vote right- it's immoral.
2. Every pray for the destruction of america.
3. Believe that the rapture has anything to do with America in general. That's ethnocentric.
4. Treason and politics have nothing to do with theology. Who says I have to be a patriot anyway? What's America done to deserve it?
5. You can believe in prophecy and still be on the left.
Michael

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

155. It may make no sense to you

But neither does the claim that treason & politics have nothing to do with theology.

What's America done to deserve your patriotism?

You mean, why should you love the country of your birth?

Why should you defend her from all who would destroy her?

YOU DON'T KNOW?

Oh. Okay.

[jonnyblitz]

140. the right can have that LOONEY rapture bullshit.

:puke:

[Bluebear]

143. You got that right~

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

147. Muslims and Native Americans are not trying to build a theocracy!

It is the fundie NUTS who are. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE ARE PISSED OFF about the religion component. THEY are the ones pushing and shoving their religious beliefs into our government and laws.

[mikedevilsfan]

149. I agree

So then say "the nutcases who happen to be Fundies"
I'm a left wing Fundie. Did you read about the Democrats that were recently kicked out of their Church in NC?
They were Left wing, rapture beliving Democrats. Get it?
Michael

[mikedevilsfan]

150. Also

I am just as worried about people using (or misusing) the rapture theology for their own gain. Actually it's more of "the end is nigh" kind of thing. So they plunder the earth while they can. Kind of strange isn't it?
Michael

[alittlelark]

152. My Fundie-Mom is a PROUD member of the 'Rapture Right'

She would disagree w/ half of your 'points'.

Get real.

[mikedevilsfan]

153. So is my mom

And she would agree on less than half so there.
Happy mother's day.
Michael

[alittlelark]

154. You miss the point... these ppl need to be SCARED... the term

'RAPTURE RIGHT' scares them... as it should.

They do not want the term to be used.

[mikedevilsfan]

157. it doesn't scare them

It reinforces the concept that they started. That all Christians are right wingers which is BS.
Nothing scares these people, except the stock market....hmmmmm.
Michael

[alittlelark]

158. You are incorrect... their belief systems are based in FEAR...

I am discussing FUNDAMENTALISTS here.

Their behavior attempts to mitigate that fear. I grew up with them. They are fearful people, very scared, and in need of 'protection'.

[mikedevilsfan]

162. another generalization

Some are and some arn't.
Martin Luther king, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton,and Jim Wallis are also the "they" you speak of.
Michael

[The Magistrate]

169. None Of Those People, Sir

Are fundamentalist fanatic reactionaries. You know that to be so. Point me, please, Sir, to any instance of any of those persons claiming Genesis is a biology text, or that Leviticus should be adopted as a code of law to regulate sexual behavior, or that Revelations will unfold literally in the near future.

[mikedevilsfan]

170. Ok so there is a distinction?

"Are fundamentalist fanatic reactionaries."
I am comfortable with that term. It's much different than "Rapture Right"
Rapture Right just indicates that you believe in it, not what you do with that information, such as being a fanatical reactionary as you suggest.
Michael

PS the Scofield Bible came out in 1909 for those who are curious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

[The Magistrate]

198. It Does Not Indicate That At All, Sir

It indicates those reactionaries who are driven in their reaction against social justice and social progress by religious conviction, centering on the End Times doctrines of La Haye, van Impe, and similar swine. Persons who are not reactionaries are not indicated by it, and ought to not only feel unaffected by it, but echo that call and endorse it heartily. As a tool of agitprop, it has advantages of compactness and alliteration that commend it highly, where my more technical descriptions are unwieldy, and unsuited for mass political work.

[CornField]

165. I don't mean to disrespect

There is a huge difference between having the rapture as a tentament of your faith and going about the business of what you believe will cause it (without remorse about your fellow planetmates).

It comes back to that age old question: Where do your rights end and mine begin? To simplify, believe in the rapture all you want, just don't assume the rest of us want you starting wars, destroying other religious facilities, and/or storming holy places as a means to an end.

[fleabert]

166. after reading the whole thread, I have this to point out...

I don't think you are getting that 'rapture' and 'second coming' are two vastly different teachings/beliefs.

The majority of Christians in this country do not believe in Rapture, but do believe in the second coming, at least as far as I was taught for 18 yrs in Sunday School. I had never even heard of this 'rapture' stuff until the Left Behind books came out. I was raised mainly in a HUGE Southern Baptist church (in Texas!) as well as several other smaller presbyterian and baptist churches in my younger years. NOT ONCE was the word rapture used. (I am 31 now). So we are talking about 1973-1991.

so many of your posts say that this is a mainstream belief, it's really not. Rapture is so far out there, I (and my right-wing, fundamentalist, bush-voting, Christian, Republican family) think it's weird. (yes, I am one of about three liberals in my family, sad I know.) This is so not common, and you are asking that a huge group of diverse Liberals write to AAR (a beacon of hope and light to us) to censor themselves and change their honest voices because an extreme minority of people might not then vote Democratic? Not going to happen. At least I certainly wouldn't ask them to change their verbiage, not in a million years.

and...how is 'rapture right' offensive really? Start calling yourself 'rapture left' and leave it at that. Perhaps the letter to AAR should say 'Hey! There are some 'rapture lefts' here too, don't forget to mention that we vote Dem!', maybe that'll get you further.

edited to check spelling and fix it!

[mikedevilsfan]

167. It's amazing just how off topic this got

You read through all the posts and still don't get it.
Why would I adopt the term "rapture left" if I want to keep political and religious terms seperate?
As for your southern baptist upbringing, they may not have said it, but I gaurantee your pastor believed it.
Michael

[Lydia Leftcoast]

178. What fleabert said

Second Coming: standard Christian theology, not even the angels in heaven know when it's happening, people always predict it every time the world seems to be going to hell

Rapture: recent invention of a few fundamentalist fringe groups, used to make fundamentalists feel proud and exclusive

[annabanana]

175. No "rapture" in the Bible...history here:

... the so-called Rapture is not part of the Bible. It is very loosely based on the Bible, but is the result of the weird suppositions of two principals--John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren, and later, C.I. Scofield, who published a version of the Bible which included his marginal notes on the Rapture, based on his readings of Darby's lectures and notes.

So, for the strict believers in the inerrancy of Biblical scripture, the Rapture is, technically, apostasy.

That it is has so many believers has more to do with human gullibility than with Biblical pronouncement.

M'self, I think it's just a variant on the very old Greek drama technique of deus ex machina--god out of the skies to solve all human difficulties (when the playwrights find themselves in a fix regarding plot resolution)

(courtesy of Punpirate)

[bloom]

177. I think that because of the way

the "Rapture Right" is using the Book of Revelation as an excuse to portray Jesus as a violent-loving person - and since they want a theocracy - the term makes sense.

The people who believe this garbage need to be challenged on it.



I wasn't using it before - but now I might.

Have you read:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

[mikedevilsfan]

202. sounds great

Well start using it.
GO to churches and spead the word!

Just don't whine after the election in 2008 when we couldn't get more Christian votes and have to deal with the next member of the Bush crime family.

It's hard to believe so many on here could care less about the vote.
wouldn't it be so much more fun debating this stuff with a democratic president in office?
Michael

[Misunderestimator]

180. Um... nah, I'll save my energy to email people who say

offensive things. People who bring hypocrisy to light... I'm all for them.

[knitter4democracy]

183. I've been thinking about this, and I've come to a conclusion.

The problem isn't what terms they use on Air America. The problem started before that. If someone's channel surfing on the radio and randomly hears "Rapture Right," their reaction will be based on what they think and feel already. If they've been taught to believe that liberals are bad, it'll just reinforce that belief; if they have been taught to judge actions and to keep an open mind, they will keep listening to see what the term means and then make a decision based on that.

Let's turn this around. Let's say this on-the-fence Christian is channel surfing and comes across Rush or someone like him and hears some really racist, scary stuff like President Carter is a pansy who is going to burn in hell for being a peacemaker. Is this Christian going to be turned off by that? Or by hearing the term "Feminazi," which I was called quite frequently in college by Dittoheads. If they do get turned off by the filth on the right-wing radio waves and then turn to Air America, something tells me that chances are good that the term "Rapture Right" won't be what turns them away. Most likely, it'll be that they're hearing the same tone of voice and same judgemental spirit that they're trying to get away from.

What we should be doing is working on getting to know our neighbors, even the right wing ones (like my Bushites across the street). We need to show them that we're human, too, that we're caring and care for them and all of our neighbors. We need to listen to them, not attack them. If someone is on the fence, love will get to them better than any voice on any radio.

[blondeatlast]

193. Agreed, but it's so much easier to build walls and call names.

In my 'hood, I'm surrounded by Bush voters. I know them, I'm friendly with them, they are with me.

If we are going to make these people vote in their best interests, we have to do it one on one.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

194. Grew Up Presbyterian. We Learned Revelations, 2nd Coming & Rapture

is something that seems to have been mixed up in the whole thing in the last 15 years or so.

So when you poll people and ask "do you believe in Rapture?" they may very well answer yes because things have become twisted up together.

It's like asking "do you believe in God?" and when just about everyone answers yes the media reports it "85% of AMericans are religious.

Edit-regardless, why insult potential voters? And Janeane is indeed the stereotypical 'liberal elitist'.

[unhappycamper]

195. NOMINATED. Would be nice if this also showed up on Greatest.......nt

[LiberallyInclined]

197. Rapture Right doesn't quite hit the nail on the head-

Rapture Retards is probably more appropriate. I was raised in Lutheran schools, and never even heard the term 'the rapture'. it has NOTHING to do with biblical christianity, as far as i know...

please explain where the bible mentions 'the rapture', for those of us who apparently had some big gaps in our christian upbringings.

[im10ashus]

200. Is this site for real?

I am finding this so ludicrous, that it can't possibly be taking itself/themselves (whoever built this site), as serious. Help?

http://www.raptureready.com/index.php

[Moderator]

209. Locking....

This thread has become inflammatory.



DU Moderator