My Fellow DUers, My Fellow Dems, My Fellow Prgsvs ... WE AIN"T GOT SHIT

[Stinky The Clown]

We really don't.have.shit ...... We have nothing.

N o t h i n g ..... Nada ......... Diddly Squat.

Well ..... we still have the filibuster ... for what? Another week?

And yet, in the face of this absolute and total fucking lack of power, we bitch, we scream, we scowl, we howl, we yell, we yelp, we bray, we scream ........ and we skewer. OOOOOH do we skewer.

We eat our own.

This (dem) guy said that, so the gays hate him. That (dem) woman said this, so the antiwarriors hate her. The whole Senate voted, just today, for Real ID. Out with them all, damn DINOs. I know we all hate them so much we want them ridden out of town on a duly tarred and feathered rail. This (dem) congressperson is lower than whale shit. That (dem) senator can suck my shorts, we say.

People, what would *you* have us do?

Yeah ... the 06 local elections. Terrific. We win a few mayor seats in 20,000 population towns. We get a governor's seat here, and secretary of state's seat there.

So what?

Face it .... we ain't got shit. We're more out of power than Hirohito in '45.

So what's next? **Please** tell me what's next.

I'm feeling more and more hopeless each day. I try not to. I'm by nature so 'up' they call me Pollyanthony (a play on 'Pollyanna', not a sexual proclivity, okay?). I had hope when that guy in East Waynesville got his clock cleaned by his own parishioners. But what did that really do? I had hope when they blew out that memo in the UK. But what did that really do?

So many, many, many times I've had hope ....... feh .... fuck it.

Maybe the next time we do that classic ritual of Democratic politics ... the circular firing squad ... we do the kindest thing we could do to each other ... ritualistically aim for the head or the heart. No teasing by just winging 'em, okay?

So again I ask the amassed brain trust here on DU ..... what would **you** have us do?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. I like Walter Cronkite's idea:

Let's have a national convention that establishes a working platform.

This year.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. I hadn't heard that idea ... but I like it

A midterm convention ... focus on two things ... local elections and a national platform.

hmmmmm ........

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Yes

I like that. We can have a convention to reenergize each other. Is there a way to get this idea to Dean? Does he have that authority?

[b...]

42. seconded! let's start it up!

we can advertise it, we can rent out a huge hall, get speakers all that. let's show we're serious!

[Old and In the Way]

9. Let's have it internet based.

Given how the Internet is about the only media platform where we approach parity with the Republicans, I think we should be leveraging the power of the 'net to connect rank-and-file Democrats directly into the process. Live blog-forums, instant polling, Q&A, media content, speeches, e-Voting education,just plain networking/connecting to State Party forums.....would be a positive step. Run it over a 2 week period. Seems Dean ought to be understanding that value in light of his sucess with organizing on the internet in his bid.

We don't need a big social booze and schmooz fest for the well-to-do, we do need a national conversation amongst Democrats. A relatively lowcost production, but capable of providing meaningful exchange and dialog between our elected politicians and their constituents. I think the Republican-biased corporate broadcast media distorts our message (in both directions) and certainly won't frame the issues to support our agenda. So why not create the largest online political convention and by-pass the co-conspirators....we don't need TV to cover our convention as entertainment....besides, the audience would also be participants in the process. Not one-way consumers of non-news.

Bet we have DUers here that could build the software to accommodate 1MM online Democrats participating....heck, maybe Skinner and Crew would want to take on the challenge, develop and run it for the DNC.

To be meaningful and relatively unfreepable, we should tie it into a valid voter registration confirmation, as of 11/2/04.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Old and In the Way, huh? HA!

That's a terrific idea. As to the technical ability, it is largely already there. In fact, last year (the year before, maybe) I did a webcast for our professional association. We did a streaming audio. Participants were able to listen and type in questions. MOderators fed questions to me. I read 'em and answered 'em.

For a few (thousand) bux more, we could have had streaming video. There were many options for the audience to provide feedback ... typed in ... two way audio to moderators ... live instant voting.

All in all, a very credible idea.

Thanks for being so thoughtful in my thread. This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for.

[housewolf]

17. Hmmm... I wonder if we could get PDA to help with something like this...

This might just be something of interest to them (Progressive Dems of America).

Where's Kevin???

[blogbear]

11. I like it too.. There's no time like the present to get geared and start

getting ready for big changes and more choices..

[illini]

2. "Keep on Trucking"

Buck up and suck it up. Stand tall and keep fighting. How about not being whiny. You need to go to bed. Then you need to wake up and figure out what you can do to help get this country back to a more reasonable bearing.

[TheWatcher]

4. Simple.

Never Give Up. Even in the face of no hope. Do NOT Give Up.

I Stand with you, and I know everyone else here will too.

Even if we do go down, it won't be without a fight, and if I have anything to say about it, this filth will go with us.

Keep Standing. Keep Fighting. Keep Resisting.

We are NOT Doomed yet.

[housewolf]

3. Well...

I don't know what we should do.

I just know one thing that we SHOULDN'T do - and that's give up.


Beyond that, I think the best effect we can have is being involved locally, being clear about our values and goals and talking, talking, talking about them, educating people about our vision for the country.

One cavaet - you can't wait for the national party to give it to you. It's no good sitting around and waiting for the national folks to "figure out" who we are, what we stand for, what our values are, what our vision is and how to frame it all in a way that will "sell" it to the masses. Come up with your own, and share it every chance that you get.


P.S.
Don't drink too much of that great-sounding wine you wrote about last night - it sounded heavenly!

Hope you get a chance to help Andy out while he's in your part of the world.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Hiya Housewolf!

..... or can I call you "Flour Head"? ;)

And this was written completely unaided by the nectar of Bacchus.


Our offer of help for Andy's been made and heard.

"Talking talking talking" ....... that's what I mostly do. I'd like to think I was personally responsible for a changed vote or three the last go-round. I continue to yak 'em up at every chance I get. Shyness has never an issue for me.

[housewolf]

20. Yup, "flour head" - that's me!

Flour-covered counters just a fact of life in my world....

Congratulations on the good work that you did and continue to do. Never give up, that needs to be our motto.

It does get discouraging at times though, I must admit. Ifeel like we get beat back every single damned week in Congress, it's a non-ending battering and abuse there. Often I wonder how our reps and senators keep going.

:toast:

[brokensymmetry]

8. You want to know what to do?

Sure. I can tell you.

We return to our roots. To our populist ideals.

FDR came into office - along with a Democratic majority in both houses of congress - by speaking to the people. The ordinary working men and women of America. By speaking of their hopes, their dreams, their fears - and telling us how we could build something better. Then, he acted on his populist instincts.

Did he make everyone happy? No. No politician ever has or ever will.

It's time to speak of health care for all. Of real jobs with good wages - and benefits. Of a renewed pledge to the security of our elderly and retirees. Of wage disparities between CEO's at the top (who get massive tax breaks) and working stiffs at the bottom who get stuck with the bill - while earning one tenth of one percent as much. It's time to speak of jobs, of cities that are decaying, of an interstate highway system that's crumbling - and of a nation that has lost its way.

There are many divisive issues, and we all know what they are. Put them aside. Address the central issues that are affecting the great majority of people here, now, today.

Do that, and we will win elections. Until we do that, we are sending the same message as the Pugs - and why should anyone vote for pug-lite when they can have the real thing.

Our candidates must speak - clearly, strongly, forthrightly - to the people. Not in sound bites.

Some will say that such candidates are not electable. Perhaps. But better to go into oblivion with the truth on our lips than to slink into the darkness as we mutter lies and platitudes.

Truth! Tell it like it is, and speak strongly and without apology.

And that's how we can change the nation and the world.

[dweller]

10. why oh why

can't we nominate a single thread???

'cause your's would be it.

:thumbsup:


dp

[Stinky The Clown]

12. I agree with (and endorse) all that, but ......

.... a good part of our problem is the pressures in our own party. If DU is even partially representative of the larger party (and it is fair to say it isn't ... or at best is only partially so) there are diametrically opposed, and deeply entrenched, positions internally. Forget the "candidate wars'. Look at the 'issues wars'. The differences are deep and deeply held. And both righteous and real.

Not only don't we have constitutional power ... we don't even have unity of opinion about what any power we might get should seek to provide. And not knowing that, we can't even point to a 'leader'. The usual suspects are there for all to see, but not a one of them is without detractors. (Did I say 'detractors"? Sorry. I should have said angry mobs .... like that one over there with the torches and pitchforks.)

No one wants their issue ignored. If left 'off the table' we complain we're not heard. If put on the table, we get killed in the 'screech monkey wars' played out in what passes for a mainstream media ... and our message goes down in flames ... flames fueled by the screech monkeys to the right and the self identified disenfranchised on the left. (Dare I call a lefty a 'screech monkey? Is that allowed?)

I dunno ..... :shrug:

[brokensymmetry]

31. History says otherwise.

You speak of our eagerness to destroy potential leaders who fail to address particular issues. This is no different than the environment experienced by leaders throughout history - and it didn't stop them.

Consider FDR. Does anyone suppose he didn't have his detractors? I can assure you he did. His own mother refused to pay social security for the household staff (this per the History Channel FDR special). Or, for a more recent example, look at the current pResident. He certainly has detractors - me among them - but he clearly controls the direction the U.S. is taking.

The problem is that we have politicians, not populist leaders. There is a critical, qualitative difference.

The clever politician tailors his (or her) message to various groups, balances the message so that the negatives stay low and the positives stay high, works critical areas and ignores less important areas. It may win the occasional election; it doesn't change the direction the country takes.

A leader speaks to the broad masses of people, creates a vision they did not have, draws them into that vision, and causes them to believe he can get them to their expected destination.

We have 45,000,000 Americans without health care. Millions unemployed and more millions underemployed. We have seniors living in fear for their pensions. We have many millions who are convinced that the future will be worse for them and their children. A leader must speak to them - must show them how their lives can be transformed for the better.

Simply telling others that one has a plan is not sufficient. The leader must speak clearly, in plain language, and must paint a picture that all can grasp and make their own. That leader will not need to worry about screech monkeys; the approving roar of tens of millions will drown them out.

No, Husb2Sparkly. I think a true, populist leader is something we have not seen in a long time. Reagan came close; unfortunately, he led us badly. The tactics and methods Reagan used are there for us, if we will but grasp them.

[passy]

40. Reagan came from Hollywood, who do we know there who is a popular populist

Mike Moore that is.
He knows how to frame an issue and is articulate.
And people trust him.

[Stinky The Clown]

48. Yanno ..... in looking for a true leader as suggested in post #31

by brokensymmetry, Hollywood is as good a place as any to look. Moore has the potential for it, but he's already been made into a clown. The moral equivalent of Ann Coulter. That's a hard place to come back from.

But there are others. Tom Hanks has always struck me as such a guy. But that's personality based. I honestly can't say I know a damned thing about the *specifics* of his views.

The hell of it is .... I suspect there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people who, if given the chance, could rise from their obscurity to lead. And to leader as visionary leaders, not as politicians. LIke entertainers, the ones who succeed, while talented, are simply the ones who get the best breaks. There's another Caruso out there. We just will never know who he is. He sings in a church choir in Dubuque and brings the congregation to tears. But will he ever solo at the Met? Never. He works days at WalMart stocking shelves.

He just never got the breaks ... and never will.

So, while Holly wood is a good place to look for the model, it is likely not the best place to find that new leader.

And likely as not ... neither is Washington.

[passy]

62. Who has made Michael Moore into a clown?

As far as being the moral equivalent of Ann Coulter that is a low blow.
Who have you being hanging around with to come up with this kind of conclusion about Mr Moore?
I have reread brokensymmetry's post and I don't think that he would dismiss Moore as a potential candidate, a leader is not necessarily the one with all the answers but he is the one people will listen to, someone who does not intimidate the electorate, someone who has charisma and conviction.
I am not suggesting making Michael Moore president but as a popular leader he would be great as he has the ability to speak to people and to make them understand what is at stake without sounding condescending and arrogant unlike many politicians.

[Stinky The Clown]

69. You misunderstood.

It isn't *me* who's making him the moral equivalent of Ann Coulter. Its the other side. It goes all the way back to F9/11 ... to his earlier support for Nader, even. Of late, the teevee yakkers and the radio bile spewers are working hard and long on this meme.

For me, Moore is as obvious a voice for our side as anyone out there.

[passy]

79. So who gives a f**k about the other side.

They have been trying to discredit him for years and still haven't, none of the heavyweights hanging around the white house would dare take him on in a TV debate.
The thing is that the guy looks like a common man, the kind of thing * has being playing on for years.
Except that * is as thick as f**k. The guy can't even make a sentence without tripping all over his words.
Moore shows people that it's possible to be common and intelligent and well informed, that is his greatest gift and one that no other democrat leader can rival.
Who are you gonna trust, the slightly overweight guy with a baseball cap and glasses or the guy in the tailored suit and slicked back hair looking like an insurance salesman.
As far as Kerry is concerned since he has been brought up in this thread I just wanted to say that he is doing too little too late and that his defeatist attitude following the election scam does not make him a great leader.
A great leader put the cause before his own political survival.
If he had come on TV the next day and said that he suspected foul play and asked the American people who had voted for him if they would stand for it, if he had protested,if he had alluded to exit polls being in his favor etc... I think he could have kept the momentum going and the media would have had to cover it.
He had nothing to loose, he knew he had the backing of the majority of the population and the fact that nobody likes a cheat. If you voice doubt about someone or something's credibility people will start to ask question, to become suspicious about * and the election results in this case.
In wrestling when you get thrown onto the ropes you bounce back and deliver the killer punch, you don't just lie down on your back and wait for the other to win.
So I can understand why people are angry at Kerry. When someone lets you down, when someone you believed in when he said he would fight until the end, just lies down and lets himself get trampled, you get angry, and you loose your trust in them.
I do not believe that it would have been political suicide to fight and raise doubts about the election result, how votes were counted, how exit polls were fixed, how thousands upon thousands were stopped or discouraged from voting, how they already had stolen the last election etc...
If he had come out the next day and said "I believe that this nation has been cheated, I believe that the basic right of all Americans to have free and fair elections, the bedrock of our great democracy and our great nation has been lost, .... I will not concede, I will fight to uncover the perpetrators of this great crime upon our nation, a crime many times worse than the horrors of 9/11, because on election night 2004 these villains have destroyed the freedom we as a people hold for granted, this is no less than a coup, if Bush is allowed to become president over the true wish of the people this nation will become what it has learned to hate, a dictatorship not unlike the regimes of Stalin, the Taliban or Saddam Hussein. The republican party will try to paint me as a sore looser, a conspiracy theorist, they will say that fraud on such a large scale is impossible, but my friends, my countrymen, believe me when I say that you will be shocked and horrified when you realize that you were cheated. I will not let you down, I will fight endlessly until justice is done, until our democracy is once again strong and incorruptible. I will fight for every American to be free from the tyranny of evil men...."
Well something to that effect.
Instead he gave up at the first hurdle, I think that him being a lawyer was a hindrance to him, he thought he couldn't gather enough evidence to back up his case.
He was stupid to believe that there was any decency in politics, had he learned nothing from *; it's all about the impression you create, reality is irrelevant, with no proof what so ever they managed to convince half of the American people that Saddam was behind 9/11.
All he needed to do was create the impression that there was election fraud, that people had been cheated, that the one who had the most to gain was obviously the culprit instead of only talking about the possibility of winning in Ohio and the just give up.

[Stinky The Clown]

82. I'll tell ya who needs to give a fuck about the other side .....

You

And me

And him ... and her ... and them ... all of us need to 'give a fuck' about the other side.

The fact is, Michael Moore has been under attack for a while. And all the wishing in the world won't change the fact that personalities like him, Barbara Streisand, Whoopi Goldberg ... and many others ..... have had their reputations besmirched. To greater or lesser degrees they been marginalized. And that was absolutely by design. By the design of the ones you suggest we not give a fuck about.

Look, they're not invincible, the other side ...... but they're smart. They're amoral. They're ruthless. They're gleefully without scruples or conscience. And mostly, they're in power and they virtually own the media.

The rest of your post is your view and I respect that. I agree with a lot of. But wishing for something that isn't so does us no good. Not for you. Not for me. Not for any of us on the left.

We need to live squarely in Realityville.

I'm not saying Mike Moore should stop what he's doing. He most certainly should not. But we need to recognize the facts of that, too.

I'm with you on one point, for sure. We need strong spokespersons. We need the articulate. But we also need the seemingly crazed. I've often said that I will be supremely happy when one of our spokespeople gets on live teevee and attacks his opponent by reaching into his chest, pulls out that opponent's bloody, hot, beating heart, and takes a bite out of it.

Now that would make for some ratings. Maybe the media might notice, too.

[noiretextatique]

86. add john kerry to the list...and clinton

and anyone else who dares challenge them. truly...forget the other side. until democrats start doing that, they will continue to lose more ground by trying to put forth a leader who is acceptable...to the enemy :dilemma: by definition...that will never happen.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. Very well said ... and very much spot on!

A leader is what we need. A leader who can be the catalyst to get the Dems moving again and even more importantly a leader who can inspire the country to return from the insane state in which we find ourselves to our true (small 'd) democratic roots.

I am answering your post after just staring another thread asking this very question ..... 'who are our leaders?'.

[oneold1-4u]

14. How right you are

Many varied rights I would like to have addressed in the future but today we are far behind in this battle to make people realize what they have lost in little more than four years! It is so hard for me to believe that so many people are so blind and unknowing. Often if I suggest they look at anything, they are ready to dump me as a friend and even family member!

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Ayup .....

If we were in power and able to get things done, then I'd be one of those carrying the pitchforks. I'd be soaking and lighting the torches to ensure that *our guy* heard me and mine.

But the reality is that, more than ever before in our history, we are waaaaaaay out of power. Both politically and structurally. There's no media left. There's no outlet for truth.

When you add up everyone who supports at least 80% ... hell, even 90% of what the bedrock Dem issues are, you get numbers that represent the significant majority of our citizens. And even with that .... we have nothing. This simply isn't the time to insist on that last 10%. That last 10% is several orders of magnitude more difficult to get than the first 90%.

We have to get some power before we can move forward.

The tactical decision to divide and conquer has been used on us ... and extraordinarily successfully.

[mistertrickster]

30. Absolutely, yes. We've let the Republicans paint us as the party

of the disabled, welfare queens, hippies, and gays--when in fact, we represent the MAJORITY views in this country.

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much it is whether we provide enough for those who have little." FDR

[Stinky The Clown]

49. And now we need two things .......

A leader who can articulate that along with true vision and leadership .......

..... and millions of little folks like you and me, telling it to everyone we meet.

Politically righteous proselytizers, working the streets (metaphorically) day after day after day.

[kaitykaity]

13. "The Last Great Act of Defiance"

Very small mouse flipping off the incoming eagle.
I had this 20 years ago, never dreamed it would
turn up on the Internet.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. I love that picture

Did you google for it?

I'm pretty sure I've seen it before. About the same time that one about soaring like an eagle while working with turkeys was making the rounds.

Very appropriate. Dark, fatalist humor.

[kaitykaity]

59. Yeah, I googled it.

Came up the first time. I was shocked.

Yeah, it seemed to fit the moment, the
spirit of things.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. Great photo!

I saved it for when I feel like giving up. Thank you. Yesterday/today has been a very disheartening day.

[sundancekid]

16. and another "recommended" from the shadow hole in the wall gang here!

:kick:

[Jose Diablo]

18. Generally, in a situation when I feel like you sound

It's time for a roadtrip. As someone has said. Keep on truckin'. It's not over by a long shot.

The in-fighting is pretty brutal alright, but when have we been kind to each other? Very rarely, but it happens sometimes.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. Road trip, huh? Not a bad idea at all.

And about the infighting ... yeah, its brutal ... and that's good. Passion shows commitment. Passion wins hearts *and* minds. But there *has* to be some open mindedness, too. Its not the brutality of the argument that troubles me. Its the intractability of the combatants.

Closed minds win nothing.

[passy]

45. Yes, go on the road talk to people.

Stand on street corners, enlighten the masses, talk about the issues they care about, the kind of issues that are neither democratic or republican.
At the same time let it be known that Democrats care about the people and that the republicans in power only care about themselves and their rich friends.
I believe that any movement begins locally, but we have to use the same methods as the repubs when it comes to the message, it must be clear and unambiguous and that's where the a central internet database and forum would help to coordinate the "message".
People need to hear the same message again and again, from their friends, co-workers, relatives etc...
I sure DU members reach into every corner of the US, let them and other established democrat organizations talk to the people armed with strong and "real" talking points and facts.
The media will never take our side and the internet does not yet reach into every home, we need to use old fashion methods.
A film or too à la F 9/11 would help of course.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. I talk .... freely and frequently .... but there's one thing missing

We have no leader. We can talk about what we stand for, but we also need to point to who stands up for that.

We also need a consistent message. That calls for some centralized coordination.

I don't know what central internet database you're speaking about, but it sounds like the kinda thing I'm thinking about. A place to go to get clear facts and clear ways to present them.

Of course, being able to 'point to a leader' who represents these broad values will be easier (and more difficult in some ways) in the upcoming 06 midterms. That's **much** more local than the presidential election cycle .... and at **least** as important.

[passy]

68. Do you think this leader should believe in election fraud?

[Stinky The Clown]

70. " ..... believe in election fraud?" ...... ?

as a religion? as a tactic?

I'm being dramatically obtuse.

To hold that there's is sufficient evidence to conclude some election mischief *could* have taken place is absolutely something a leader should speak to. To ask for an honest assessment of the last election - and our entire elections processes - is absolutely a valid territory to stake out.

To cry from the rooftops that Bush is there by fraud - as if it were irrefutable fact - is wrong. Whether you or I hold that to be true is immaterial. There's yet to be seen a smoking gun. Lots of (hugely credible) smoke ... but no gun ... yanno?

[passy]

80. WMDs were nothing but smoke...

... did that stop *'n Co from invading Iraq?
The bankruptcy of SS is also nothing but smoke, does it stop them from talking about about as if it was real.
You just don't get it, it's not about smoking guns anymore it's about reality-alteration, about spin, about lies becoming truths, about the impression you create.
If you read my other post about what Kerry could have done, you will realize that two can play that game.
It's not a question of being good or bad, decent or just plain evil, it's what the political scene has become and we have to play their way if we ever want to be heard. Right now they have shoved us off the stage, we need to climb back up and as be as loud as they are, to not speak our truths with doubt and uncertainty in our voices, to talk directly to the American people knowing that we are honest and strong.
Do you think Rummy, Cheney and Rove even hesitate when they spew out all their lies? Hell no, they stick to the plan, however evil it might seem to us, they truly believe in their cause, the fact that they lie to the people everyday, that they let them get killed in unjust wars, that they imprison them without trials, that they steal an election, they manage to rationalize all these nasty deeds and continue on deceiving us.
Imagine what we could do for the people if we weren't embarrassed about our position, if we truly believed that the best policy for this country is to still be a democracy, with an independent media, where people do not have to live in fear, where everyone is taken care off no matter how much they are worth, where religion is not a cheap political tool.
These are the things we believe in and we have to go out to the people and not hesitate, we have to be firm in our belief because we know that if we don't succeed it will be the end of us.

[nashville_brook]

21. how outnumbered was gandhi? MLK?

oh, fuck it.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. MLK did his work when there were open minds

and a more or less sympathetic government. There was a media that actually allowed us to hear what he said. Even in those days of the visual news being done in three half hours nightly the truth of the issues was clear. We were able to think and weigh and discern.

I have a huge concern that the media no longer exists, replaced instead by a better technology run by increasingly simple minded, incompetent, compliant followers of the powers that be.

To say nothing of the fact that we have no MLK, no RFK ... no ... Paul Wellstone ...... Walter Cronkite (or Dan Rather, for that matter).

The rhetorical question of the year stands unanswered:

Who is our leader?

Rudderless and adrift is where we may well be ...... all the while hoping we can contain an increasingly mutinous crew.

[BeFree]

33. "Who is our leader" you ask...

This is the kinda stuff that burns me up. 'Who is our leader?'

There is this fellow, a guy named John Kerry, who was our candidate in the last presidential election. Remember him? Ya know, the one who really won.

But no, he's a has been. He's no good. He's a lousy candidate, even tho he won.

Ya see, there goes our unity, right out the friggin window, and you sir are the wind beneath it's wings.

[Q]

47. Shouldn't you ask yourself 'why' Kerry is perceived this way...

...instead of talking about blind 'unity'?

Using your logic...GORE would be the 'leader' of the party because he actually won the popular vote where Kerry didn't.

Where was the unity behind Gore? We had posters on this very board right after the 2000 election saying that we owed Gore NOTHING. Some of the same people that rejected Gore out of hand now talk about unity behind Kerry.

People get behind ISSUES...not personalities. If you want to 'unify' the party then you'll need a candidate that represents ALL the people all the time. Not just when it's politically expedient.

[BeFree]

54. You're dreaming, Q

If you think we will ever have: "... a candidate that represents ALL the people all the time."

I admit, I was one of those who gored Gore for giving up in 2000. But I'd have supported him in 2004 had he been running.

But all that is in the past, and today we ask: Who is our leader? Well, according to what I see on this board, we will never have another leader the way things are going. Who in hell would want to lead us after the way we've trashed Gore and Kerry?

[blm]

83. There is no candidate who represents ALL people ALL the time.

i've supported Dennis Kucinich since 1972 and even he was a heartache to me during the 90s when he voted with the Republicans every time on abortion and their dumbass flag amendment.

But, I still knew he was a man of great character and that his heart and intentions were honorable.

Kucinich today is unquestionably a man of the people and yet, he still gets grief from those of differing opinions and who claim his positions are politically expedient.

Noone is perfect for all Democrats.

If you have a name, share it.

[Tansy_Gold]

50. Kerry's the one who flew out the friggin' window when he

conceded without even notifying his running mate. But I'm not gonna rehash that.


Kerry is not the party leader. He is not out there rallying the troops, he is not out there stirring things up. That's what a leader does. If we had one, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I agree with the posters upthread who suggested a mid-term convention. I think, as a matter of fact, that the party does have one, but that shows to go ya how much impact it has!!

I said immediately after the 00 disaster that the Dems needed a platform that they could campaign on. The pukes have one -- no abortion, no sex ed, church in schools, church in workplace, gays back in the closet, concrete barriers at the borders, imperial storm troopers to secure "our" oil supply, etc., etc., etc.

What have the Dems got? Well, the OP got it right -- NUTHIN'.

So, DUers, what issues would be in a national party platform? How would they be framed?

1. Lift the gag rules on abortion, contraception, family planning.
2. No vouchers for private schools. Period.
3. Rollback the tax cuts for the wealthy, especially the estate tax.
4. Engage the international community in a discussion of how to get out of Iraq, with or WITHOUT "honor." Hey, world, W fucked up royally, we're admitting he fucked up, and now please help us get out of there before we do even more damage? Ditto with Afghanistan.
5. A strong stance against religious-based oppression -- especially of women and children and ethnic minorities -- around the world. This means Darfur, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Texas, Arizona, etc.
6. An end to corporate welfare. Taxpayers should not have to bail out the stockholders of UAL.
7. A sane environmental policy that protects the planet from the depredations of greedy corporations. In a phrase, Earth first, corporations last.
8. A sane energy policy that promotes and encourages individual, corporate, government, and non-profit development efforts to wean us all from dependency on fossil fuels. Not just "foreign" oil, but coal, natural gas, etc. And a "sane" policy is not going to contain incentives to go more nuclear! (See #7)
9. Universal health care. Period.

Any other suggestions?

[BeFree]

53. Good stuff, Tansy

In fact, I think Kerry would support 99% of your platform ideas.

Let's get real. There are things that happen in DC we will never know. I think Kerry was threatened, just like Daschle, Leahy, and all the rest were with anthrax.

If we can't even rally around the man we elected as president, we ain't got nothing. That's where we are.... nowhere with nothing.

[bvar22]

74. Immediate withdrawal from Trade Treaties...

that are destroying the Working Class in the USA. Re-negotiate ALL trade Treaties on a bi-lateral basis from Free Trade to Fair Trade ensuring Environmental Protections, Worker Rights, and Human Rights.

Pass legislation making secret offshore tax havens for Corporations illegal.

[Stinky The Clown]

55. "you sir are the wind beneath it's wings"

And you, sir, are incredibly presumptuous to aver that. You have no idea what my politics are. Nor can you accurately draw any conclusion about them from this post. And my view of "who our leader is" is absolutely immaterial. I'm just one guy.

But I can and will tell you this much. I am a person who hasn't thrown over the side any of our 'leaders'. They all have something to contribute and they all - every .... damn .... one ..... of ..... them - have the widely held posits of the democratic spirit at heart. And any one of them .... to say nothing of countless others .... can rise to the occasion.

But so far ... none of them have. A few may have sunk a bit. But none has risen in a meaningful way.

I am neither a 'rah rah knee-jerk supporter' of any one person nor a broad stroke detractor of any of them. I do, indeed, have favorites, indeed a single favorite, but that's completely immaterial.

Sure it can be argued that Kerry's the leader by dint of having been our most recent presidential candidate. But the case can be made for many others as well, albeit for different reasons. Kerry may well have won the last vote count. But he's not in the white house. He doesn't automatically get my support for that. Don't read that wrong. I am not in any way, shape, or form, a part of the anti-Kerry brigade. But neither am I a blind follower.

So in the end, none of them, not one, has yet to rise to the top and start speaking out clearly, unambiguously, without triangulation.

I want a leader who isn't 'cute' with his words. I want a leader who's honest and eloquent. And 90% aligned with my own views.

Your jury may have chosen Kerry ... and that's fine. No criticisim from me on that choice.

But my jury's still out.

[noiretextatique]

87. open minds? sympathetic government?

would that be the government in alabama, mississippi, or georgia? NO.
and regarding those open minds...the truth still isn't clear in many folks minds.

[nashville_brook]

89. ding ding ding

:)

[Tux]

25. Contact

Your reps. Only thing we have left. If enough tell them that the nuclear option isn't worth it, they may change their minds exspecially with that Chan guy in NC and Dems.

[Festivito]

27. Short sighted persons don't aim well, even in a circle.

Not to worry so much.

Sometimes one must just say "oh, how interesting that you feel that way," and let some people go.

Unless you wish to stifle dissent as do Republicans.

As to "we don't have shit," your're correct. I say the problem is poor spread of information through our media, and it must be addressed more so than a platform, a platform that may not be heard without corrections for our media.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. "Unless you wish to stifle dissent as do Republicans"

I don't want to stiffle dissent at all. What I would love to see is a reduction in intractability. A reduction in absoluteism. A reduction in litmus testing.

I'd like to see .... conversation.

And as to your point about the media ...... I couldn't agree more. It could well be the very biggest issue we face. Just as a conversation starter (so to speak ... but not in this thread) some say that BBV is the biggest issue we face and that if we don't fix it, we'll continue to lose.

And that, on its face, is true.

But the media makes the problem close to unfixable. Were the media to report fairly on the facts, even not having proof wouldn't be as big a probelm as it is. While there's no fire, there's plenty of smoke. And if the country were only allowed to see the smoke. To smell it. To taste it. The country would understand that it is an issue that needs looking into. Without the media to report, anything we discover just becomes more intellectual porn for our mental masturbatory habits.

[Festivito]

36. Good luck changing the absolutist intractables.

Please don't spend too much time or effort on them. There are issues that need you.

The media problem is terrible. I don't know. Perhaps we need to go around them somehow. Our "Representatives" worsen BBV, so we need a medium. The problem will not go away magically.

[Lexingtonian]

28. Oooh, nice defeatism!

Well, the first thing is decide that the Other Side will run things for a time, and it won't be according to your opinion or your best interests, so it's time to get your private life in the best possible order.

The second part is giving up all the stuff that is already lost.

The third, that the Other Side has concrete policies in the economic, social, and ethical realms, plus ones in diplomacy, military matters, and international behavior/criminality.

Then your business is to track as and how the electorate gives up on, or renews credit to, the Other Side until it's too little to rule with. And to come up with what Your Side should come up as opposition for the time being, and what it should commit itself to in the long term- what it should stand for when it regains power.

Here's my present rough tally on where Republicans stand in polling on their policies:

Economic: 40%
Social: 40%
Ethics: 40%
Diplomacy: 40%
Military: 40%
Terrorism: 52%

40% is when both moderate and hardline Republicans still agree on a policy. 57% is when nonpartisan people agree with the policy. >57% is when some Democrats agree with the policy. 30% or 32% support is when moderate Republicans no longer agree with hardline Republicans, and in some issues (Schiavo, Social Security 'reform', the FMA) that split is evident. When polling drops below 30% on anything, it means disintegration of hardline Republican positioning.

We had the Social Policy metric fall from 57% to 40% via the Schiavo matter and related Republican stupidity between November and April. They lost the nonpartisan people via exposure of their hypocrisy and abject failure and callous aims.

The Terrorism Policy metric is in decline as the evidence mounts that the Guantanamo Bay prison system is not actually dealing with Al Qaeda or any real terrorists. But it will take some scandal or incident for the nonpartisans to give up their wavering back and forth on that completely. After that, Bush and Republicans have lost the next elections.

But we want more. If on enough of these metrics the moderate and hardline Republicans split (reach the 32% level) their party will break in two. If enough further failure of the hardliners' policies occurs, it will undermine everything they've made their Party represent, and their party disintegrates as a unit and coalition on the particular policy, and if so on enough policies, as a party.

At the present rate of failure- they lose approximately one political demographic per year in each metric- we are looking at taking back Congress in '06 and disintegration of the GOP as the entity it is at present, Nixon Republicanism in '07 or '08.

Have a nice day. And you're welcome.

[Stinky The Clown]

32. Those are good - and hopeful - metrics, but they also serve to reinforce

the notion that *we* have nothing.

I quite agree that the Republican extremists are working hard at their own destruction.

That's the good news and that's the bad news. We're simply bystanders. We squirt a little Ronson's lighter fluid at the edges of the conflagration. We even have the gas can for the lawn mower that we use to sprinkle stronger fuel on the fire from time to time. But we didn't light the match. We're not putting the big logs on the fire.

You used the Schiavo issue as an example of a how their policies are working against them. And an excellent example it is. But what the hell did we have to do with that? Again, we were just bystanders. Oh sure, we had someone make a statement that the press dutifully ignored. We had someone else give a little yakker on the floor of the House or in the well of the Senate. And again it was ignored. We may have seen it on C-Span2 at 4 AM, but no one else did.

No, whatever damage these issues do to the Republican extremists is the direct result of their own grandstanding. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It absolutely is not.

But we didn't have a damn thing to do with it one way or the other.

We're bystanders.

Your post gives some good, positive, even hopeful information.

But what would you have us *do*?

I'm tired of eating popcorn and watching the show.

I'm feeling like that old drawing that made the rounds of interoffice mail some years ago. That picture of the two vultures. One saying to the other: "Wait, hell! I want to kill something."

I identify with the vulture that wants to kill something. Not the one waiting for someone else to kill something so he can pick over the carcass.

A nice day back atcha.

[Lexingtonian]

84. quite true

It frustrates me too that leading Democrats are not stepping up to, let alone outside, the present conventional 'thinking'. There's nothing out there on the policy proposal level- despite there being a lot of material generated- that isn't in essence merely reactive.

My analysis is rather more extensive than I can render in a few posts but the basic truth is that the electorate has let Republican dogma and policy serve and demonstrate -fail- on its own terms since late 2000. Our side's policies are only foils. The electorate has allowed the maximal ideas to be put in the public arena and implemented, and disabled the implementation as it proves its failures and exhausts its successes. In 2001 the Republican taxation/government program agenda- which defines the Economic metric- started with maximal permissiveness/nonresistance. Hardline Democratic opposition formed around it. In 2002 the Republican agenda of wiping out the last Stalinist regimes worldwide was given full license and benefit of the doubt, and hardline Democratic opposition formed as the details and foolishness of the planned Iraq venture emerged. Bush v Gore started hardline Democratic opposition in the Social metric, and so on.

The true business here on DU is to prepare our tier of the Party- more or less minor grassroots activists- to win and rule when the Republican agenda has run out of electorate to support it. We're not going to write the Democratic agenda, but it is people like us who are going to be key to its viability and translation into practice and its being understood in the electorate.

A lot of that job is unity. It's very much about getting residual conservatisms exposed and subdued among our own, and on DU that's playing out as the 2008 Primaries furore.

The jobs I find myself wanting to do are 1) exposure of Republicans in the ways that matter, which amount to the failure of Guantanamo and the DeLay etc corruption. 2) Optimism about and careful watching of the '06 election buildup, and getting ready to help some Democrats' campaign(s). I think Congress will fall Democratic- and that finishes off the Bush Presidency politically in short order- there will be a reprogression of income taxes and such that blows the GOP apart. The Supreme Court majority will fall to justices who enforce 14th Amendment rights and overturn a lot of the legalized discriminations and rectify inequalities in pretty short order. And there will not be political 'capital' left for the U.S. to abuse/ work with from the Cold War in the international arena, exploited as it was via the Iraq venture, so foreign policy will necessarily become humbler and more keyed on human rights and economic fairness again.

It's mostly 3) grassroots work on the agenda for me. There are enough people with ideas and efforts on foreign policy stuff and economic agenda development, and dealing with corruption and Democratic clean hands. My own inclination is toward social justice work, and I believe the Democratic agenda there is (finally) full and appropriate extension of 14th Amendment civil rights guarantees, again. Clean elections can only follow the '06 elections, so I don't bother with that. The death penalty is horrid, but to my reading it will take another 15 years for it to be banned if not a bit longer. Abortion rights are just about settled, no matter all the squawking. My cups of tea are gay marriage legalization- which will settle the status of gay people as equal- and the efforts to overturn the laws disenfranchising non-incarcerated convicted criminals, which strikes me as the key (though quite indirect) obstruction to improvements in criminal rights- seriousness about rehabilitation efforts- and the major minority rights problems- education funding.

Okay, that's the part that is not all cheer and places for youthful energies.

I think Democrats should really be a lot more cheery these days. We are going to inherit the country- wasteland of sorts that the Nixon leftovers have made of it- and this whole nightmarish societywise living in the past is going to end. Creativity will return to blossom, all the thievery thwarting it is pathetic and useless behavior by people who have no future. We have the future, we shall own it, we will have the joy of building up everything as best as we can- it's a wonderful country, unbelievably wealthy and able when it puts its desires toward good things. We will have purged ourselves of an awful lot of barbarity, that's what makes the present suffering ultimately worthwhile. The sun will rise over a land in which better people lead the way, and whole classes of people will be doing more wonderful and constructive things. We should begin to party, better and more often. We should begin to imagine the freedom and opportunity that lies ahead, the Victory and Peace that we will have earned. We have just about survived a terrible and brutish challenge, and the civilization we have been fighting for lies ahead.

[Stinky The Clown]

91. Wowzer! Thanks for that

A postive view of hope while we sit here in shit land.

Even as I sense overwhelmingly the gloom and doom that seems to pervade, I, like you, have this place deep inside that sees a turn with the 06 elections. Not that I see it as inevitable, but I *do* see it as possible ... maybe even likely. We have to work hard to make it happen ... but it *can* happen.

Thanks again! Great, hopeful post.

[lonestarnot]

34. Yep... they own all the machinery...beast only has power for 44 months.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. Color me thick ......

... but I don't see your point.

[lonestarnot]

37. Well the point is bushitler is going to have absolute power for 44 months

[Stinky The Clown]

38. 44 months ....... or 20 months ..... if we're truly living a charmed life

[wiggs]

46. Irreversible damage is being done that will last longer than 44 months.

First, a media/corporate/government/religious institution machine has been created, taking decades to build, that will not likely go away in 3 years. It was built to last. The reasons the worst president ever won in 2004 were not because of the man, it was because of the system. We are not close to catching up in our own dem party machinery, infrastructure, and tactics. I question to motivation of many of our dem leaders in this effort anyway. This last week, it has become known that our government altered intelligence and lied about facts to enter into an uneccessary war and that our government inflated terror alerts. No impact here at home. This tells us something about where we are as a dysfunctional democracy. We are past the point of no return.

Second, the lives of hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded are being altered in Iraq and America. You can't tell me that the 2008 elections will make them whole.

Third. The worldwide enmity that has been simmering because of our foreign policy for decades is being intensified. The ramifications of this will outlive all of us.

Fourth. Environmental damage can be permanent. Worst environmental president ever is giving away the public commons for corporate profit.

Fifth. The debt created by this administration will have impact for decades, both in terms of paying it off and in terms of who we owe the money to. I remiind those that have read Confessions of an Economic Hit Man that crushing debt has been a tool used by America to enslave the poor in developing countries...

Sixth. The bar has been lowered on ethics, honesty. "The ends justify the means" has becomee part of our MO.

Time to get to work...perhaps other cycnics out there can add to the long list of ways in which this administration will have negative impact past the next three years.

[lonestarnot]

90. Didn't say anything about the damage...just the power period.

[Finder]

39. Well first of all, I recommend we stop using the terms they use.

The majority of the citizens in the US consider themselves independent or undeclared. Every so-called Democrat I know personally--actually voted for Bush, while registered Repubs I personally know split about 50 percent to vote for Bush.

The right has used memes effectively. Family values, patriotic, morality, faithful, resolute, to describe themselves and flipflopping, godless, useful idiots, treasonous, anti-american, etc. to describe liberals, democrats and progressives.

Every word and any progress Howard Dean made was reduced to a 10 second sound byte(enhanced in volume), Kerry was reduced to a flower child who married a bitchy rich woman and protesters are made out to be borderline terrorists threatening democracy.

The media is partly to blame but so are we. We focus on cable news and the major newspapers while our local media are the ones that are getting through to the majority.

I am sure most of you have heard the term "All politics are local" and that is true. We should all focus on our towns/cities, counties, states first beginning with local newspapers, radio and television. Go to bean suppers, spaghetti suppers and other fundraisers in your community and gauge what the community is talking about and what they believe.

This past election, New Hampshire(historically red)voted a repub governor out, and Kerry won the state. This was accomplished by focusing on the issues that affected the communities and lots of grassroots work. The average person does not care or want to know about the british memo or Jeff Gannon or a pastor of a small church a thousand miles away dissing 20 people. I personally find these issues important but not many do. If it doesn't affect them personally they will not invest time to look into an issue. Taxes, Social Security, Education, Environment, Gas and oil prices are of interest to just about everyone in the country and we are letting the right frame all the issues while we tend to focus on deeper issues that the average Joe has no idea about and we end up preaching to the choir and distancing ourselves from who we are trying to reach.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Stinky The Clown]

56. Good points all

And here in my thread ..... I let them stand. Thanks for saying things with thought and conviction.

I add my 2 cents to yours.

[SOS]

41. Q: "what would **you** have us do?"

A: Unilateral rejection of all corporate and PAC money.
The Democratic Party needs to be the party of the average working American, keeping their best interests at heart. Our candidates are hamstrung by corporate and PAC money.
They can't speak to the concerns and angers and needs of the average American because too many are on the corporate payroll. (Biden voting for the bankruptcy bill because MBNA is in Delaware is the perfect example). IMHO, the only hope is a return to a populist, anti-Wall Street stance.

[Stinky The Clown]

57. That is a structural, fundamental change that is long overdue ......

..... in my falsely modest personal opinion.

No PACs, SACs, RACS, FACs, YAKs, GACs ..... Hacks.

Absolute and total public funding of campaigns. Spend a penny from another source - go to jail.

The 'free speech' issue (527s) needs to be settled, but I'm sure we can find a way.

[wiggs]

58. good idea. nt

[cssmall]

43. Responsibility is on us as a whole.

We need to unite under the banner of what ever we can. And stop this bickering and in fighting that plagues us. Look at the republican rank and file teetering off to the election booth and voting for every R on the ticket. Meanwhile, we look at R, D, G, L and everything in between. We need a theory to hang our hats on. Look at our community here and look what good it can do with people like Andy Stephenson, if we stand up now, join together, forge a political theory and ideals, then perhaps as a unified whole we can do something. And, yes it takes time, it takes power and it takes money but if we do something together then the road isn't half as long as it is. Remember, this country still is great, though it is in the wrong hands. It's time to stand up, to speak out and to fight. Forget your fears, we're not fighting for them. We're fighting for our children and our children's children. It is time we stand up and show them that we care instead of just bantering. . . political movements occur through a showing of the people. If one person makes the news for protesting, then five are interested. We just need to unite under a similiar political theory. Please consider what I said.

[erichzann]

51. There are too many ideas for a 2-party system

That's the first problem.

I recongnize this is a tangent from the OP's point, but I want to make the comments anyway. All this talk about how there's infighting on the left, and we "eat our own" etc. is because I have extreme, core disagreements with some other people who also take the name of democrat - and there is no more room to compromise than there would be room for me to "compromise" with Bush on lying to the American public about Iraq.

That's the problem. We try to lump everything that isn't neo-conservative into one single party. But then we're surprised when we can't agree on a direction.

If the last election taught me anything, its that I will no longer accept an "anybody but the other guy" mentality. I want the democratic party to reflect the principles of traditional liberalism which always have been and always will be morally appropriate. When a person calls themselves a democrat and betrays those principles, I cannot walk hand in hand with that person.

We are not moving toward a period of greater unity, unless that unity is because one ideology wins out. Either the Democratic party is going to become the party of corporate conservatism as many would like to see happen, or it is going to become the true opposition party of progressivism. It cannot be both, and eventually one group of people are going to be left out in the cold.

[Stinky The Clown]

61. I'm in no way arguing or trying to change your principles, but

... I can't see any other pragmatically valid position than staying together.

We have a structure in place (its been here since July 4, 1776) that makes anything other than a two party system unwinnable for one or the other side of the political spectrum.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong. But no can argue except to say it simply 'is'. And here in Realityville that's the playing field.

Fractious factions do nothing but create another "say that fast three times" game.

I have no solution to offer you. But I know what I know. And what I know is that a third party is doomed to perpetual failure. And being so doomed, it dooms its closest neighbor to that same failure. And the farther to one pole or another that third party is, the greater the damage to its neighbor. Perot, by way of example, was pretty much in the middle. It is an arguable fact that he drew relatively equally from both sides. Contrast that with Nader. He was quite to the left of the Dems and it is arguable he pulled the vast majority if his support from Gore. (He had little if any affect in Kerry's run.)

I'd rather we find some way to coalesce within one party than split into factions.

But I can't stop you from leaving.

[erichzann]

64. Who said I was leaving?

I don't think it should be me who should leave. :)

[Stinky The Clown]

65. Well said!

And touche on my presumptuousness! :)

Jumping to conclusions is wrong. My Bad.

[G_j]

60. Civil Disobedience

"I became convinced that noncooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. No other person has been more eloquent and passionate in getting this idea across than Henry David Thoreau. As a result of his writings and personal witness, we are the heirs of a legacy of creative protest." - Martin Luther King, Jr, Autobiography, Chapter 2

Civil Disobedience
by Henry David Thoreau - 1849
(Originally published as "Resistance to Civil Government")

read:
http://eserver.org/thoreau/civil.html

++++++++++++++++
if possible watch (Sundance Channel):

HOWARD ZINN: YOU CAN'T BE NEUTRAL ON A MOVING TRAIN
directed by Deb Ellis
and Denis Mueller

Monday 05.16.2005
12:00PM

Monday 05.16.2005
05:05AM

Thursday 05.19.2005
07:30PM

Thursday 05.19.2005
04:30AM

Saturday 05.28.2005
03:30PM

Tuesday 05.31.2005
09:00AM

DVD
YEAR
2004

77 MINS, Color/B&W

Teacher, activist, historian and author. Howard Zinn's personal journey took him from a bookless working-class flat in New York to a prestigious position at Boston University. For the past-half century, Zinn has been one of the leading voices of the American left, voicing opposition to American power abroad, championing civil rights at home and chronicling the history of working people. In a profile in courage and conviction, documentarians Deb Ellis and Dennis Mueller tell the inspiring story of Zinn's life and teachings. TVPG (AC) Stereo

PRODUCER
Deb Ellis
Denis Mueller

EDITOR
Deb Ellis

COMPOSER
Richard Martinez

www.sundancechannel.com

[Stinky The Clown]

63. I espouse nothing along these lines

But this is absolutely a valid option. Absolutely.

A last resort, to be sure .... but valid all the same.

[noiretextatique]

88. you do realize: this is what MLK did

civil disobediance, that is. this is why minds were opened, and because it was televised, that also forced the federal goverment, which was not particularly sympathetic, btw, to act.

[patrice]

66. Grow up all of you.

Stop acting like the thing you say you hate.

[Stinky The Clown]

71. Thanks for being so thoughtful

You've clarified a great deal for me, at least, and likely for others as well.

[patrice]

77. I hope I'm not too abrupt. I'm a very practical person, like LOTS of

other practical people who just want to get the job done, and don't have the patience for all of this other stuff.

I'm a little sharp sometimes because of my no-nonsense (German) mother. I believe being female has something to do with this too.

I learn a lot here too.

[Stinky The Clown]

78. Abruptness is fine. I can be that way too

But it remains unclear to me just what it is you suggest we stop. Discussing a solution? I don't think you mean that. Stop looking for a way forward that is as inclusive as possible? Probably not. We all hate (for example) the bankruptcy law just passed. No one here is espousing it and thereby warranting your notion that we stop doing what we hate.

I have no issue whatever with sharpness. I'm just honestly unable to discern your meaning. :shrug:

[patrice]

81. okay.

[Hugin]

67. I'm with you, dude...

Uh, I mean, I'm with you, <insert gender neutral group adjective here>

[Stinky The Clown]

72. Back atcha dude ... dudette ...... duder?

Ya gotta put in them disclaimers or sure as shit someone's pants/panties/undergarments get all tied in a knot. :)

[Stinky The Clown]

73. I forgot to ask ........

is the word "knot" sufficiently neutral/nonspecific/inoffensive.

Sorry ... this reply means nothing and adds nothing ... but its my thread and I couldn't resist.

[Lori Price CLG]

75. An essay...

Arming the Left: Is the time now? --by Charles Southwell "As long as we pose no REAL threat to the powers-that-be, to what is shaping up into a dictatorship, we will continue to be ignored. Right now, we are ignored because we present no organized power to fight this onslaught of anti-democratic, totalitarian government that we are up against..."

<snip>

Lori Price

[Stinky The Clown]

76. That's an interesting essay. I'd not read it before.

It is interesting to me that what I got from it was an espousal for a strong uprising ..... a 'war', if you will, against our own government. That said, I saw no incitement to violence. Rather I got a call to moral arms. A call to, quite literally, organize and march on our leaders and demand change. An actual army of the enlightened, the disenfranchised, the under represented, the marginalized ... and the mainstream. A call to military-type strategic action ... not with guns, per se, but with demands. A latter day storming of our own Bastille.

Is that what you got out of it?

Who would lead such an army?

[libertypirate]

85. Tell everyone what you know...

With out passion, as a matter of fact, don't hide what you think any more. Fuck their perception it's just a fallacy it's not real they have nothing but what they have seen before to back it. Take the small truths to people don't hide from them. Just keep repeating them don't budge you know the truth.

My favorite way to start one of these campaigns to right people’s wrongs is pull fake I was wrong. Say something that you know you are wrong about and then admit that you are wrong on that point and that point only. Oh this works wonders they don’t even realize you just softened them up.

I also print up news and ask people have you seen this.