So they don't shoot down the plane? But they do shoot...

[xultar]

120 times @ an unarmed man in a SUV?
shoot and kill a man who took the police on a high speed chase?
shoot and kill a burgulary suspect in a Wal-Mart?


:shrug: I don't get it?

Discuss?

[progmom]

1. I don't get it either.

x(

[bonzotex]

2. fighter pilots are generally a lot smarter than cops

Shooting down a plane over a heavily populated area is a big deal and it ain't gonna happen unless the aircraft is a real threat. This guy was never a real threat. This was a staged distraction.

And yes, I'm paranoid.

[fryguy]

8. well not always . . . .

remember this . . .

Pilot Blamed In NJ School Strafing

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/04/national/main653804.shtml

An Air National Guard pilot who fired on a New Jersey school during a training exercise was to blame for the incident, but poorly designed controls in the F-16 also played a role, the Air Force concluded Friday.

<snip>

Balzano was on a nighttime training sortie conducting basic surface attacks at the range. A briefing session was held before the mission and Balzano was cautioned not to use his laser marker with the air-to-ground gun mode selected and the gun armed, the report said.

However, shortly after 9 p.m., Balzano was flying at approximately 7,000 feet over the range when he pulled the trigger, firing 27 rounds of 20mm ammunition. Eight of the 2-inch lead rounds punched through the school's roof, knocking down ceiling tiles. At least one rounded struck a child's desk, and others scuffed the asphalt in the parking lot.

<more>

[bonzotex]

41. yeah, good memory

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragically stupid and careless. I could recount lots of stories of incredibly stupid things done with Air Force jets. I stand corrected!

[TahitiNut]

3. The SUV wouldn't fall on top of an elementary school or mall.

If the fighter fired on the Cessna, where would the expended rounds hit? If the Cessna were 'downed,' where would it crash?

[xultar]

5. Nor wil lit spray toxic and deadly chemical weapons? hummm

[seriousstan]

6. Since we are talking outside the realm of reason anyway.....

Yes it could spray toxic and deadly chemical weapons. Trucks can be easily outfitted with chemical foggers. Many are used for mosquito suppression.

Now back to reality........

[xultar]

12. OH my GOD!!! what is wrong with you people? THEN they SHOULD

SHOOT unarmed SUV drivers?

[fryguy]

16. well for one thing we're not being myopic

and not lumping all law enforcement actions and/or officers into one catagory

[xultar]

17. But you would agree that there is a problem? RIGHT? That's all

I'm trying to say.

We're shooting citizens for minor infractions.

Tasering pregnant women?

come on....

[PKG]

22. Certainly such events are regrettable.

But they aren't remotely related to this Cessna event.

[fryguy]

25. a problem with incidents of police officers using excessive force? yes

but your OP posed the question about why police shoot in some instances but not in others - such as the Cessna incident yesterday. no one, I think, is saying there aren't problems with certain police officers using force when not necessary or using excessive force, but that is a fundamentally different issue than what your OP was about.

in addition, holding the entire population of police officers, throughout the country accountable for the actions of a few is, in essence, stereotyping.

[fryguy]

4. difference that I see

is that had the plane been shot down over a densly populated area - like downtown DC - there would have been many injuries and likely deaths to people on the ground. i'm in no way saying it was proper to shoot in the other instances, but those situations did not pose the same risk to others as downing a plane in a city does.

[xultar]

7. Well shooting @ an unarmed man 120 times in a neighborhood won't

cause any problems? Plus the cops shot 3 of their own.

Nope shooting in a Wal-Mart isn't dangerous either.

[fryguy]

11. didn't say such incidents "won't cause any problems"

but they are very different situations and are, therefore, difficult to compare.

if cops pull over someone after a chase or confront an person who committed a crime, they are faced with the combined needs to apprehend the person, protect the public, as well as protect themselves. again, i'm not defending the police actions in the situations you highlight, but shooting a suspect that turns out to be unarmed is a very different situation than making a decision to cause a plane to crash in a high density urban area. the loss to life in the shooting of a suspect, while utterly tragic and reprehensible, is minimal as compared to the damage, injuries, and deaths that would be caused by a plane exploding in the air and raining down burning debris and aviation fuel on downtown DC.

[seriousstan]

9. As officers closed in, the man began to pull a semiautomatic handgun

from his waistband, Peritz said. Cedar Hill police Sgt. Colin Chenault fired twice, hitting the suspect.

Police recovered the gun and found it was loaded.

What don't you get?

[xultar]

10. I'm just a sayin....Police in this country shoot and wound or kill plenty

for smaller crimes?

:grr:

[fryguy]

13. but when they shoot

they try not to cause injuries to innocent people and bystanders - a bit hard to avoid that when shooting down planes over cities . . . .

[xultar]

18. So, shooting 120 shots @ an unarmed man in an SUV in a neighboor hood

is trying not to cause injuries? They shot three of their own officers for GAWD sake. People had bullets whizzing through their houses.

[fryguy]

30. you really need to contemplate the bigger issue

no one is saying, at least not me, that firing 120 rounds was not excessive or endangered people (other officers or bystanders). but the issue YOU raised in your OP was about why the plane over DC was not shot down.

what i am saying is that the situation the police in LA were in is very different than what was faced by the officials in DC - and most cops as well.

in DC they were able to avoid shooting down the plane because the pilot complied with the military and turned away from the heading it was on. the situation was resolved. had the plane not complied, the question would have been whether the risk posed by the plane warranted the extreme action of shooting down a plane over a heavily populated area.

in LA the police noticed the suspect in his SUV driving around the same block in a neighborhood of recently high gang related crimes of violence. the suspect then fled police and led them on a 12 minute chase. when cornered, the suspect did not give himself up to the police and the reports are that he continued trying to back up. deputies then opened fire - excessively it would seem - when one of them appear to fall as a result of the SUV's actions.

i work with a lot of cops, and can tell you that they do a stressful and dangerous job. whenever they approach a person or vehicle, whether in a high crime neighborhood or not, they are on edge because of what might happen. the adrenaline is high, and more so after a chase and a tense situation such as this. in a situation like the one here, the police were - i am certain - not trying to cause injuries to each other or the people in the area. rather they were trying to resolve what they perceived to be a dangerous situation. it wasn't as if they knew the individual in the car was unarmed and proceeded, based on the situation, to assume he was and were protecting themselves and the public.

it is very unfortunate that he in fact posed no threat and very likely the police, due to the stress of the prolonged chase, over reacted by firing so many times - and that is being investigated. but try not to lump into one pile all police officers and all law enforcement situations based on the most regrettable incidents.

[PKG]

15. Not all 'they' are the same.

The Air Force is not a local police force. Their actions can't be compared.

And even then, all police forces are not the same. You cannot even blame, say, St. Paul's police force for the errors of Minneapolis'.

[xultar]

19. But wehen we hate all republicans and blame them for the actions

of a few it's ok right?

I don't get some of ya'll we alwayz generalize. But we shouldn't on this?

[PKG]

24. The critical difference is

that the evil actions of Republicans are not individual abuses of power (though they exist) but rather systematic attempts to undermine America. If the Air Force and local police forces had gotten together for a Tuesday morning strategy session and said "hey, guys, we'll use appropriate force against this one airplane, but how about you occasionally use inappropriate force on civilians" then you might have a point.

[xultar]

21. Sure they can. They have taken on law enforcement. DC Cops have copters

why not let them handle the situation.

DC cops are law enforcement yet the government army airforce and marience are taking on law enforcement duties? Hell, they didn't even tell the DC mayor?

WTF is up with that?

[PKG]

26. This wasn't law enforcement, it was national security.

There's quite a difference.

And beside that point, the top speed of a Cessna is faster than the top speed of a police helicopter--and helicopters can't dive. Moreover, a police helicopter does not have the armament required to bring down aircraft.

[xultar]

27. Ah let's be for real. If it were national security then all the buildings

should have been evacuated. Did they evac the pentagaon too? The local authorities would have been notified.

First responders in a NATIONAL EMERGENCY are COPS!!!!

[PKG]

29. What would the cops have done? Stared menacingly at them?

In events such as this, standard procedure *is* to scramble air force interceptors.

And police are *not* first responders in every type of national emergency. If we were to suddenly find that China had invaded San Francisco, we would not attempt to take care of the situation with police forces. The police would be useless against an invading army. Similarly, the police are useless against aircraft. How will a helicopter bring down a plane that's faster than it, can dive to escape it—-without weaponry larger than small arms?

Next up, the plane had violated Congress' airspace, not the Pentagon's.

[fryguy]

36. reminds me of the Robbin Williams routine

when, in talking about the British bobbies, he says that they're method of apprehending a criminal is to say:

"Stop! Or I'll say 'Stop' again!"

:rofl:

[elehhhhna]

14. You forgot "taser a pregnant woman"

[fryguy]

31. tasers are the worst invention. ever.

PBAs are outraged by the prospect of Taser marketing personal versions. Since they don't use gunpowder they are not considered fire arms and can be carried without permit.

[elehhhhna]

40. Machetes don't use gunpowder either. Oy. Ridiculous.

I think the coppers like playing Jedi with the electronics.

[lonestarnot]

20. Dugh which way did dey go...which way did de go...????

[bdot]

23. and the problem is?

120 times @ an unarmed man in a SUV? I've got nothing against shooting someone in an SUV.

shoot and kill a man who took the police on a high speed chase? I've got nothing against shooting people who get in high speed chases.

shoot and kill a burgulary suspect in a Wal-Mart? I don't have any info on this to make a decision yet.

[xultar]

28. Welcome to DU, but I'm gonna be watching. If you don't have a problem

with cops shooting unarmed suspects I'm concerned.

[fryguy]

32. remind me again

how the cops knew the suspect to be unarmed? could they handled the situation with less force? sure. but did they know there to be no threat of weapons? not from anything i've seen or read of the incident.

[TX-RAT]

37. He was driving around in a 6000lb vehicle.

Out of control, and running from the police. Thats a pretty lethal weapon.
But you will have to explain to me how the officers were suppose to know he didn't have a weapon.

In TX, running from the police is a felony.

[Catherine Vincent]

33. The police didn't have to think twice of the shoot out in Compton.

Who cares about the neighborhood? Had it been in Beverly Hills or Simi Valley, they would have followed the car until it drove out of the fancy neighborhoods. We don't want any stray bullets hitting an innocent bystander.

[xultar]

39. That is what I'm trying to say. They dont 'think twice about shooting

in a black hood or walmarts filled with blacks and hispanics.

[Dorian Gray]

34. Military v. Cops...

Two completely different organizations with two completely different types of men/women in both positions.

The Fighter pilots are highly trained combatants. They have been, most likely, prepared for this situation for the last three and a half years. They couldn't have been more prepared.

[Coexist]

35. if it happened in Florida, shooting it down would've been encouraged

screw the innocent bystanders - it's all about the "perceived threat".

[uncle ray]

38. this week in colorado

the police in colorado springs also shot over 100 rounds at a few loose bison, leaving a number of homes bullet riddled and the residents pissed off.