There should be a monument honoring Black slaves.

[Jara sang]

I think there should be a monument honoring Black slavery on the National Mall in D.C. and it should be really big. This country would be a two bit, backwater, second world nation were it not for the contribution of African-American slaves, yet there is no monument that I know of anywhere. African-Americans were treated as beasts of burden during our nations infancy and their contributions should not go unnoticed. It is also time that Americans in the modern era come to grips with the fact that this country perpetrated a horrible genocide on Africans.

African slaves contributed far more to the foundations of this nation than several other Americans that do have monuments on the Mall. In fact there are only two monuments to African-Americans, that I know of, on the Mall. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial, there is an African-American man in the statue there and on the Lincoln Memorial there is a slab marking the spot where Martin Luther King Jr. made his "I have a dream" speech. I think there is talk of a MLK monument on the Mall and he needs one to honor his contributions to the Civil Rights movement.

I have an idea for a monument honoring African-American slaves, a huge statue of a Black slave straddling the Potomac river, with one foot in Virginia and one foot in D.C. in the style of the Colossus of Rhodes, it would also be a tribute to the Underground Railroad, as the Potomac was an obstacle that those on the railroad had to cross. That may be too big, as I believe there is an ordinance stating that no building or structure can be higher than the U.S. Capitol dome, but something like it can be put somewhere in or around the Mall.

It is time that we as Americans recognize the holocaust that was the institution of slavery in the Americas.

[onehandle]

1. Boy, would that piss off the right-wing.

Or just remind them of "the good old days".

[0007]

2. Absolutely! And there should be a monument honoring all the

Indians tribes that had their land taken by the U.S. Government. Also a monument for the Chinese slave workers that helped build the first railroad system in the U.S. and a monument for all the Chinese slave workers that died working the mines here in the U.S.

[G_j]

3. yes, yes, yes & yes n/t

[bemildred]

4. I like it. What a great idea. nt

[Jara sang]

13. I was going to suggest one for Native Americans as well.

But I think that issue deserves it's own post. The Native American Museum on the Mall is a start, but I feel it doesn't really do the issue justice.

[William Bloode]

78. I agree for blacks but,

Being a native myself sometimes i feel we have already been over memorialized. Growing up i had to deal with all the old negative prejudice, and stereo types for the most part promoted in film and literature. Then attitudes change and we have since in many respects fallen victim to a new "kinder gentler" racism. Heh! now we have to live up to or down the whole noble savage thing.....hehehehe. Anyway give the blacks some of my honor, i've about had my share.

[neweurope]

168. I'd suggest less a monument to the native peoples but a

reminder of the white man's guilt... Like the new Holocaust monument in Berlin. That's not a monument for the Jews but a monument to German guilt and shame. I wouldn't let them of the hook :)

----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Deep13]

5. How about a monument...

...in the form of cash damages for their ancestors. Even if we just gave them the modern equivalent of minimum wage for the work done by slaves, it would be considerable. Of course, many other damages were suffered. Slavery is the most horrible thing imaginable. It is worse than the mass murder of the concentration camps because there is no natural end to it. It goes on hour after soul-crushing hour forever. When a slave dies, his or her children continue the effort.

[Jara sang]

12. I'm for reparations

But I don't think it should necessarily go to individuals. It should go to scholarship programs, schools in the inner cities, and infrastructure programs in Black neighborhoods.

[realisticphish]

14. exactly

giving to individuals would be a monolithic task, and, ultimately, a failure. but i like the idea of group investment. help society, rather than give someone a few hundred bucks

[Kweli4Real]

33. I'm also for reparations ...

And would support scholarship programs, funds for building schools and infrastructure in Black communities.

But I am more in support of tax exempt status for all native born African Americans for a period of 200 years (roughly equal to the length of legalized slavery in the US).

And further, tax refunds for all taxes African Americans (regardless of whether they were native born or not) paid from 1866 (the passage of the 1st Civil Rights Act) through approximately 1975 (when state governments began to actively enforce the Civil Rights protections granted by the 14th Amendment.)

[Horse with no Name]

45. Reparations will never happen in our lifetime

I had hoped in the progress of our country, we would get around to that one day when we were ALL able to look at the atrocities that were done to the black culture. Much like the Holocaust.
However, with this bunch in control, I think we can look forward to the enslavement of all races into servitude, not righting past wrongs.

[XemaSab]

149. The problem with reparations

is that they wouldn't fix societal racism.

So you're poor, you're living in the ghetto, and you get a check for 10,000 or even 20,000 dollars for having had ancestors in slavery. You spend the money on a car, or food, or rent, or a nice vacation, and then where are you?

You've had a lifetime of poverty behind you, and you have a lifetime of poverty in front of you, and now you're incurred the wrath of white bigots who might have even forgotten about you. The cycle of racism remains, but now you're supposed to "get over it" because the problem of Black poverty has been "solved" by cash reparations.

The only thing that would "fix" the historical wrong of slavery is for black people as a whole to achieve a standard of living comparable with that of whites, and the only way it's going to happen is education.

Free college for all Black people would be terrific, but you've also got the same problem with Native Americans, so they can get free college too. Latinos are currently poorer than most non-hispanic whites, so why not throw them into the bargain? And any poor children of immigrants? Why not make college free for *everyone*?

Seriously, money should never be an obstacle to achieving an education. JC should be totally free, and state college should be free if you have a decent GPA.

[MuseRider]

6. Great idea.

So are the other suggestions above this post. I like it.

[noonwitch]

7. There's one in Detroit

At Hart Plaza, overlooking the river toward Canada, there is a statue of runaway slaves, honoring the last stop on the Underground Railroad and all the people who passed through it.

There's also a museum of african american history, and a brand new arab-american history museum in Dearborn.

One in Washington, to the slave labor who built the Capitol and other landmark buildings, would be appropriate.

[Village Idiot]

8. Wasn't the Statue of Liberty

built partially as a monument to black slaves recently freed? I understand the artist who designed her was a French Abolitionist...


There is one in Harrison Park, Owen Sound, ON, but it is in Canada, and it honours survivors of the Underground Railroad...

[mcscajun]

116. Nope. The story has been flying around the 'Net for years. Check Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/liberty.htm

[MadHound]

9. Sounds good to me, however

Will we also put up a monument honoring white slavery in this country also? Granted, white slavery didn't last beyond the early eighteenth century, but it is a part of our history that should be explored for a number of reasons. Conditions of white slaves were as bad as those of black slaves, and white slaves made common cause with blacks on issues such as escape and freedom. This led to a series of mixed race slave and poor class revolts in the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century, the most famous of which was Bacon's Rebellion in 1676. These revolts led directly to a racial divide, engineered by the ruling elite, that persists to this day. I feel that such a cojoined monument, with appropriate explanations would serve as a lesson in how the ruling elite artificially divides a class of people who have more in common with each other than those who rule them. We are seeing the hand of divisivness in today's society, for as the racial divide has closed in the past half century, an artificial divide based on religion has been deliberately engineered by the ruling elite. And again, we are seeing the consequences of this artificial divide on our society, as a group of people, the majority in this country, are fighting among themselves while the ruling elite are laughing all the way to the bank, depositing their lucre robbed from the pockets of the working class.

[tx_dem41]

17. Interesting that you would compare indentured servitude...

(what you are calling "white slavery") and slavery of blacks in the U.S. I don't see how you could so easily equate indentured servitude, where the servant had a contract that ended after a term of years (usually a short span of years), during which time that servant was a full citizen of England, with U.S. slavery of blacks which was in almost all cases a permanent state during which the slave was not given any rights of citizenship.

Quite frankly, the two conditions don't equate at all, IMO.

[MadHound]

18. I was waiting for somebody to bite, thanks

Indentured servitude, as you know it and as taught to the little kiddies wasn't widely practiced in that form until early in the eighteenth century. Before that, a contract was optional. Many many whites were simply seized off the streets in poor sections of England, Ireland, and elsewhere in Europe and shipped over to the US. The conditions that they were shipped here were later to become much more familiar under the African slave trade, planks of wood for beds, very cramped conditions, high numbers of deaths, etc. etc. Once they reached the US, these white slaves were bought and sold, split from their families, and subjected to all of the trials and tribulations that were later associated with the African slave trade. In fact you could very well say that white slavery was merely a trial run for the African slave trade.

Fifty percent of the "colonists" that came over to the US from
England during the early colonial period, including those on the Mayflower, were white slaves. Not indentured servants, not "convicts"(though many were labeled as such in order to give a legal fig leaf) but outright slaves, poor and working class people who were siezed off the the street, bound and shipped for the new world. They were worked like slaves, they were kept like slaves, they were treated like slaves, and they would remain, unless fortune intervened, slaves the rest of their life.

The reason that this fact is so little known is that it was a casualty of the divisive wedge of racism, and the rewriting of history. As I stated earlier, in the late seventeenth century and early eighteenth century, whites and blacks were making common cause against the ruling elites in this country. Both groups were enslaved, and even if they were free, they were poor and in the same boat. Many revolts, major and minor, broke out in the colonies, and this rise of the underclass scared the hell out of the ruling elite. After brutal suppression of these revolts, and the subsequent hangings and other punishment, the ruling elites decided that something had to be done to break apart this alliance of the working class and poor. They hit upon the idea of instilling institutional racism upon the underclass.

Thus, from the early eighteenth century onwards, we see a radical drop off and disappearance of white slavery. White slaves were either freed, or given contracts with end dates. The poor in Europe instead of being seized off the street and pressed into slavery were given contracts and now called indentured servants. Whites of all classes were treated equally under the law, and systematic hatred of blacks started being taught throughout the colonies. Blacks meanwhile were treated as non-humans, had their avenues to freedom slammed shut, were considered property under the law, and had a system set up in order to keep them seperate from their white underclass brethern.

Over the years and centuries this divide widened to a chasm and was solidified almost into stone. In the fifties though, the civil rights movement started breaking down the barrier between whites and blacks, and the reunification of the underclass started to once again become a reality. Seeing this, the ruling elite realized that race could no longer serve as a dividing wedge keep the majority underclass at each others' throats(and off of theirs) so they came up with another artificially divise issue, religion. Taking the born again fervor of the early seventies, the nurtured it and coddled it, and brought a formerly non-voting group into the political arena, where it has wreaked havoc ever since. But that is another story.

But white racism was real, even if untaught. If every American knew about white slavery in the colonial period, don't you think a lot of us would catch on to the real deal that was going on? Thus, the lack of this issue, the whitewash about indentured servitude. But the reality is that there was white slavery in America that was every bit as cruel and deadly as African slavery.

This doesn't lessen the tragedy of African slavery by any mean, nor does it demean it or cheapen it somehow. African Americans were held in bondage much longer that whites, and had to travel a much harder path out of their personal hell. But what white slavery does is point to the historical reality of how the ruling elite socially engineers the underclass to keep it divided against itself, and from becoming justifiably angry at the real culprits in this country, the ruling elite.

For an interesting overview of white slavery, I recommend Howard Zinn's bood "A People's History of the United States". Here is a quick net overview link here:<http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html>. And while I haven't read this, this book on the issue of white slaves gets some good reviews<http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/bibliographies/WhiteSlavery.html>

[UdoKier]

19. The Chinese who built the railroads weren't much better off.

It's wrong to say that the kidnapped Africans were the only ones who suffered...

[MadHound]

21. I'm not saying that at all friend,

And I agree with you about the Chinese. Exploitation by the ruling elite knows no racial boundaries.

[noiretextatique]

81. no one is saying that: EXCEPT YOU

and a few others. as far as i know, chinese people werern't packed into ships and brought here in chains...no, only AFRICANS had that experience. too bad some of you are still in such denial about that.

[Brewman_Jax]

117. Checking the first website

and a little googling, Michael Hoffman is a RW reactionary and white supremacist. The Campaign for Radical Truth in History shares a link with the National Socialist Movement, http://www.nsm88.com/articles/adl.html and The Patriotist, http://www.patriotist.com/nwarch/nw20031020.htm

He has an article cited in The White Nationalist News Portal http://www.solargeneral.com/ja/films/schindlerslistreviewedbyalanrcritchleyandmichaelahoffmanii.html

This individual's credentials and associations leave a lot to be questioned. :puke:

BTW, most of these sites are NOT safe for work or will hit the firewall.

[UdoKier]

119. Zinn is almost as well-known and respected among progressives as Chomsky.

Post as many links with libelous insinuations as you like. Zinn is unimpeachable.

[Brewman_Jax]

157. Re-read your own posts

and mine. Hoffman was brought into question; I made no reference to Zinn. I've read your posts, and this sideline lowers your already low creditbility. Quit while you're behind.

[UdoKier]

179. I'm not familiar with Hoffman, and was not interested in those links.

But I am familiar with servitude of other groups thanks to Zinn's books. One of those nazi sites you mention has a quote by Chomsky trying to bolster their argument. That doesn't mean that Chomsky is pro-nazi, anymore than DUers who cite Jefferson are proponents of the slavery he practiced.

And WTF are you talking about credibility? I'm sorry, has the enslavement of whites and Asians been disproven while I wasn't looking? No, I don't think so.

I've already said that if you want to memorialize specific events, even the African slave trade, fine. But making it about "blacks", with the false implication that ALL blacks, and EXCLUSIVELY blacks were enslaved, is not cool. That is what the OP called for, and that is what I objected to. A monument to American slavery should include all enslaved peoples.

[ultraist]

121. Madhound: Why are you posting links to WHITE SUPREMACISTS?

THAT is your source? Despicable.

[QC]

127. Yes, Hoffman is a white supremacist, but the facts about

indentured and convict labor in colonial America are very well known among students of history and have been for years. It's only schoolbooks that take a breezy, chamber-of-commerce approach to those forms of labor--historians are quite well aware of how brutal and widespread they were and are, in many cases, uncomfortable with the subject because it presents a considerably less sunny picture of early American history than most people want to hear.

I would not have linked to Hoffman, but the information he presents is common knowledge among historians. There are plenty of other, more legitimate sources for it. Here's one you might find interesting: http://www.gangsofamerica.com/3.html

[ultraist]

38. I agree tx_dem41

Good to see you back in GD! :hi:

[MadHound]

41. Nice to see that you're buying into the revisionist history friend,

The ruling elite are pleased that they're fictional rewrite of history is becoming so widely accepted as the truth. Did you happen to check out my post #18, and the sources and links contained therein?
If not, I suggest that you do.

There are two major differences between white slavery and black slavery in this country. The first is the time factor, aprox one hundred years for white slavery vs two hundred and fifty for black slavery. The other major difference is that blacks, even after they were freed, suffered systematic discrimination, whereas whites were assimilated into society easily and suffered no discrimination except that which was based on class as opposed to skin. Of course this latter difference had to be maintained, for without it, the divide and rule strategy of the ruling elite would fail.

[ultraist]

47. There are not only "two major differences"

That is an oversimplification. Perhaps YOU should read more about early indentured servitude and slavery of African Americans.

excerpts:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1narr4.html

All were indentured servants. During their time as servants, they were fed and housed. Afterwards, they would be given what were known as "freedom dues," which usually included a piece of land and supplies, including a gun. Black-skinned or white-skinned, they became free.

This disorder that the indentured servant system had created made racial slavery to southern slaveholders much more attractive, because what were black slaves now? Well, they were a permanent dependent labor force, who could be defined as a people set apart. They were racially set apart. They were outsiders. They were strangers and in many ways throughout the world, slavery has taken root, especially where people are considered outsiders and can be put in a permanent status of slavery.
- David Blight, historian

The Middle Passage

Slaves packed like cargo between decks often had to lie in each other's feces, urine, and blood.
Over the centuries, between one and two million persons died in the crossing. This meant that the living were often chained to the dead until ship surgeons such as Alexander Falconbridge had the corpses thrown overboard.

[MadHound]

80. I think you might benefit by a closer examination of this issue,

Specifically go back and read the source documents, the colonial laws of Virginia and elsewhere. In fact George Sandys(colonial treasurer of Virginia) notes in his "Laws for Virginia" that certain classes of indentured servants are bound to their labor forever, convicts, villians etc. Those "servants" who worked govenor Sir William Berkeley's land were bound in servitude for perpetuity. Children were bound to contracts until the age of twenty four, and possibly beyond. If a servant committed a crime, however minor the infraction, time could and would be added on to their contract.

As far as indentured servants receiving land, arms etc, it was the rare few who did so, and that early in the history of the colonies. According to Howard Zinn, upwards of eighty percent of the freed servants were died during their servitude, were rendered penniless, returned to England, or became "poor whites"

These weren't the quaint contracts of equals that we're led to believe by modern history books. Many many people, mostly children were kidnapped off the streets of England and thrown onto a boat for America, there to labor for the rest of their lives under the rule of their master. Men, women and children, all white, were bought and sold in open air markets. Yes, many had contracts of limited duration, however many didn't.

Conditions on the trip over for these "servants" were as abysmal as any described in the Middle Passage. Fifty people, chained by the neck to a board no longer than sixteen feet. Mortality rates as high as fifty percent. One passenger describing how thirty two children were among the bodies tossed overboard during the trip. Yes, this was a warm up for the African slave trade.

Please don't get me wrong, my intention here is not to minimalize the suffering of African Americans at the hands of the ruling elite. What I am trying to point out here is how a vast underclass, composed of both blacks and whites were all in the same situation, and how by making common cause with each other, they forced the ruling elite in this country to create that artificial racial divide that has plagued us ever since. This isn't a white vs black thing friend, this is an underclass vs ruling elite matter. And at the hands of the ruling elite everybody, both white and black have suffered, and continue to do so.

[ultraist]

93. Racism and classism

Yes, both exist, yet those who experience both racism and classism are hit harder. I get tired of the worn out argument that racism is not a serious social ill.

[tx_dem41]

42. Hi Ultraist.

:hi:

I was on a business trip/vacation in Netherlands/Belgium the last 3 weeks. Going through DU withdrawal.

[mark414]

156. yeah

especially since white people had to put up with all that horrible jim crow stuff too :eyes:

get a clue dude

[Guaranteed]

10. That is an outstanding idea.

I agree with the above posters too, about the natives, etc.

[leveymg]

11. There already is. The foundation of the U.S. Capitol was built by slaves

All one has to do is put big, brass plaques next to the entrance doors to remind people of this important fact.

Also, I believe some back-pay is way overdue. With interest.

:hide: :patriot: :hide:

[LiberallyInclined]

31. I think that they deserve better than a "plaque"...

not to say that it shouldn't be recognized-
but wouldn't it be nice to have a monument that personifies their oft-overlooked GARGANTUAN(i like that word...'gargantuan'...but hardly ever get a chance to use it in conversation...)contribution to building the U.S. into the superpower it has become.
after all, they were people too...even if people didn't think so then (and some yet today).

[leveymg]

97. Most people would prefer cash to a new monument. Reparations. n/t

[LiberallyInclined]

128. direct cash reparations will never, and should never, happen...

except perhaps to those who were actually slaves.

[DistressedAmerican]

15. OMG! Great Fucking Idea! Nominated!

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terran]

20. Here we go.

I wondered how long it would take someone to accuse the OP of being racist. This is a continual source of utter amazement to me.

Dirk

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terran]

23. "Why only to BLACK slaves?"

If you don't know the answer to that question, you need to do some research. And I'm not going to repeat an argument I've already had several times already over the years with other equally uninformed people at DU.

If you think this is racist, then you must think that Black History Month, and affirmative action, and ethnically-based scholarships, and all Black Studies Programs, are racist.

[UdoKier]

24. No, those are ways of giving positive recognition to a culture.

But what you are talking about is like a Holocaust memorial, but ONLY for Jews with the millions of gays, communists an disabled people who were murdered excluded.

If a synagogue were to do such a thing it would be understandable, but a national monument should honor ALL victims of the atrocity.


Slavery was an endemic problem that went under more than one name, but whether they were coolies, slaves or indentured servants, they were still for all intents and purposes slaves, living under the most horrible conditions.

[Terran]

25. No, sorry

Your post just proves to me that you have no facts about this subject at your command, and I don't feel compelled to educate you. I've tried to do that here too many times before and people like you don't want to know what the facts are.

I will just point out, to give you something to think about, that "coolies" and especially "indentured servants" are not still feeling the effects of their so-called "slavery". African-Americans, as a group, still are.

[UdoKier]

30. "African-Americans, as a group, still are."

I thought we weren't supposed to judge people as a group.

What about the African Americans whose ancestors were never slaves? What about the ones who participated in the slave trade?

And who are you to say that the ancestors of coolies and indentured servants aren't feeling the effects? Are they in the same boat as the ancestors of the WASPS who came on the Mayflower?


And I'm not asking to be "educated" by you.

I think MadHound's post on the subject was quite good.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3650062&mesg_id=3651090&page=

[ultraist]

43. DENIAL!

Why are you desperately trying to minimize the horrific effects of African Americans being enslaved?

Pretty revealing...:puke:

[UdoKier]

46. Revealing,yes.

You judge people by their color or group, not by their accomplishments or crimes.

"Liberals" who say "reparations for ALL blacks, and ONLY blacks, whether slave ancestors or not" are just as guilty of trying to divide working and poor blacks from working and poor whites, who SHOULD BE natural allies as the right.

During the depression, poor black workers and white workers were able to band together and strike despite the best efforts of the elites to divide them.

This is the same thing. It is a dishonest generalization to say that ALL blacks and ONLY blacks were victims of slavery, and that nobody else deserves any recognition. If it's okay so say that, then I guess it's okay to say that ALL whites and ONLY whites are guilty of racism, and should be put in jail for their ancestors' crimes, regardless of whether their ancestors were abolitionists or servants themselves.

You open a whole nasty can of worms when talking about reparations to people who have been dead for a hundred years...


ANd I would never try to minimize something as horrible as THIS:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Slavetreatment.jpe

YOU are trying to minimize the suffering of anyone who wasn't black.

[Terran]

67. Wow

You really know how to put words in other peoples' mouth, don't you?

By the way, the last surviving slaves passed away as recently as 40 years ago, not 100. Typical stupid false generalization that slavery apologists like to make about the reperations issue.

And the generation of children who were the children of the last slaves is just now leaving us. My partner's grandmother's parents were slaves, and she just passed two years ago. Are you going to tell me that her parents' slavery had no impact on her? that maybe she didn't deserve some kind of recompense for what her life might have been if her parents had controlled their own destinies?

[UdoKier]

70. I would have no problem with reparation, but only in one of 2 ways

1. if it was monetary remuneration to people with documentation that their ancestor was indeed enslaved.

2. If it were a college fund available to ALL people under a certain income with no assets, since most of these people, regardless of color have been victims of discrimination, servitude, and all manner of abuses over the generations.

Black skin alone shouldn't be an automatic ticket to a jackpot, anymore than Bush's name should've been a ticket to a jackpot for him.

It's amazing how in PC circles, "in general" is a no-no, until suddenly , you arbitrarily say it applies.

[noiretextatique]

79. do you know that many black people didn't have birth certificates

even after they were routinely given to others? that includes slaves, their children, grandchildren, and in some cases their great grandchildren. it makes doing the kind of reserach you suggest almost impossible...something you should know, btw. the fact is, even without tracing direct ancestry, jim crow laws applied to all, even those who didn't have slave ancestors.
i think a refund of all the taxes paid by persons of african descent during the 100 year period that jim crow was law would be a good place to start in terms of reparations. that's not a jackpot, btw, that's a refund for paying taxes to a white supremacist government.

[UdoKier]

120. How about reparations to all citizens who were denied the vote?

Nobody who didn't own property was allowed to vote when the country was founded. Women have had the vote for less than a century. There is no end to grievances.

I'm aware that documentation is not there, which is why the first reparations scheme couldn't be done fairly, which is why I favor the second. There are black citizens like Oprah Winfrey who have no need of reparations. Such funds would be put to better use for the needy of all colors.

[noiretextatique]

174. that's just fiine with me...reparations for everyone!!!!!!

and surely you know that oprah is an exception...even among most white folks. surely, you aren't suggesting that oprah is the average black person, are you? keep bringing out your absurd examples...it only shows that you have no argument. so let's not be stupid, shall we?

let's talk about the difference in sentencing between powder and crack cocaine, for example, and the impact that's had on the rate of incarceration of black people, and why that's an acceptable policy in america. in regards to women, let's examine the current assualt on reproductive choice that some here defend also.

get this: a moument to african slaves or reparations to the decendants of slaves would in no way diminish, ignore or dismiss the suffering and current plight of any other group. and only you, and a few distinct others are arguing that it would. which begs the question: how exactly would a monument to black slaves "hurt" YOU or anyone else? how would paying reparations to any group who deserves it hurt anyone?
and finally, what on earth is the point of your posts in this thread?

[UdoKier]

178. Wow.

Wow. Wow. Wow. "and surely you know that oprah is an exception...even among most white folks. surely, you aren't suggesting that oprah is the average black person, are you? keep bringing out your absurd examples..."

A billionairess is unusual, but it sounds like you are saying that just being a black person successful enough to not need reparations is "absurd". I've met some pretty successful black people, why is that absurd?

"let's talk about the difference in sentencing between powder and crack cocaine, for example, and the impact that's had on the rate of incarceration of black people, and why that's an acceptable policy in america."

To some. I totally disagree with criminalizing ANY drug, and people with addictions should be hospitalized. I agree that that kind of sentencing is racist in effect, but it certainly can weigh heavily on whites who use rock cocaine. Rock vs. powder is often a class question rather than race...

"in regards to women, let's examine the current assualt on reproductive choice that some here defend also."

Off topic much? Besides, the dirty little secret about anti-choice folks is - half of them are women. Women have the vote. Why do you act as is it's men trying to take away your reproductive freedom? Almost EVERY anti-choice zealot I've ever met was a woman.

"a moument to african slaves or reparations to the decendants of slaves would in no way diminish, ignore or dismiss the suffering and current plight of any other group."

If you had just used the word "enslaved people" rather than group, I'd let it go, but you seem to think that Africans were the only people in bondage, and that ALL of them were slaves and that is simply not true.

[noiretextatique]

180. are reparations *generally* based on income?

um...no. not in the case of japanese americans, and not in the case of victims of the holocaust either. so...where do you get this idea that because oprah is now a billionaire that she didn't suffer from the persavise nature of discrimination against black people aka "the american experience?"
crack cocaine disproportinately crimimalizes black people...fact. you can dream up any colorblind scenario you wish, but that is the fact.
um...you brought up reparations for all those who couldn't vote, that includes women. if you don't see that the current assualt on women, regardless of the gender of those in the anti-choice movement is connected to the history of the treatment of women in this country and elsewhere...suffice it to say: that would not surprise me at all. off topic...why yes YOU ARE, and have been...that seems to be your point.
once again...a monument for african slaves would in no way discount, or dismiss the enslavement of other people. only you, and a choice few others, persist in putting forth that LIE.

[UdoKier]

182. That's because reparations are usually paid to living victims...

...and their immediate families. With slavery reparations, you're talking about reparations for a crime that was committed against people who lived 5 generations or more ago, one whose victims would be very difficult to document.

"so...where do you get this idea that because oprah is now a billionaire that she didn't suffer from the persavise nature of discrimination against black people aka "the american experience?"

I'm not saying that she didn't. But it would be unconscionable to take tax money from taxpayers. many of whom are poor working people, and many of whom are descended from enslaved people themselves, and give it to a billionairess.

"crack cocaine disproportinately crimimalizes black people...fact. you can dream up any colorblind scenario you wish, but that is the fact."

Again you are speaking in the generalities that PC is supposed to forbid. I'm all for ending the drug war because it is wrong and stupid, but your argument is ludicrous. As though alcohol, marijuana and other drugs aren't as readily available to black people as they are to the rest of us! Using crack cocaine is a personal choice. Are tobacco companies being racist by adding menthol to cigarettes?

I'm sorry, but I find it really hard to follow your logic. I never said not to make a monument to "African Slavery". The OP wanted to make a monument for "blacks", and it comes off a different way to me. Reparations are a whole other ball of wax.

It's wrong to generalize about ethnic groups, except when it comes to grievances. Then, suddenly one group (African Americans) deserves recompense for it's travails, because IN GENERAL they have been harmed more by racism and discrimination, but another (poor whites) don't, because even though many of them have gotten a MASSIVELY raw deal and suffered much discrimination (especially Appalachian people), because IN GENERAL they have been victimized less.

Do you see what problems arise when you start treating people based on group status rather than individual accomplishments or grievances? Do you not see how some might find it unfair?

That's why I prefer reparations based on either income, or DOCUMENTATION that the individual in question was actually victimized. Sorry if that's hard to understand, but it's strictly in the interest of fairness (and has nothing to do with the aforementioned monument question, BTW)

[noiretextatique]

183. gee..if only the enslavers had your wisdom

regarding the problem of treating groups of people differently...we wouldn't be having this discussion NOW. i love this "living victims" argument...it's really easy to dismiss.
so let's examine why reparations WEREN'T paid to those living victims...hmm,it's quite a conundrum. instead of reparations, the living victims of slavery got: JIM CROW, for another humdred years. again, your wisdom regarding treating groups of people differently would have come in handy then. but of course, people WERE AN ARE TREATED DIFFERENTLY: it's called racism. oprah, notwithstanding, there black people still face discrimination in employment, housing, and certainly in the criminal justus system.
so...exactly WHEN is US history did black people have the political power to force the government and the decent people of america to pay reparations? WHEN? NOW...that's WHEN.
so much for that assinine argument.
the german people faced the holocaust, and that's something america has yet to do vis a vis slavery.
hey: black people are "taxpayers" too...they paid raxes during jim crow when they were denied the basic rights of citizenship because racism was codified into law at the time.
again...this in no way dimishes the suffering on any other group...it's just the truth.
using oprah as example is ludicrous, at best. surely you know that a disproportinate number of black people live below the poverty level. as to why that is the case, i think it has a lot to do with racism, but i don't dismiss class dynamics either...but
"hey we were too racist to pay the living victims of slavery anything, and since oprah exists now, it would be unfair to pay reparations jus tto black people" is not a coherent argument against reparations.
finally...what is the point of your posts in this thread if not to argue that a monument to african slaves somehow would ignore or diminish the suffering of others? it seems that IS your argument.

[UdoKier]

184. Winding up...

since this is clearly going nowhere...


"surely you know that a disproportinate number of black people live below the poverty level."


Surely you know that the majority of black people DO NOT live below the poverty level.

Surely you know that most people under the poverty level are white.

Surely you know that there are groups of whites who have historically and still do endure discrimination.

""hey we were too racist to pay the living victims of slavery anything, and since oprah exists now, it would be unfair to pay reparations jus tto black people" is not a coherent argument against reparations."

That's not the argument. The argument is that it should be paid to people who need it. And it's not an argument against reparations at all, it's just an argument against reparations made strictly on the basis of race, which is inherently unfair. Under such a scheme, blacks whose families were never enslaved would get the same reparations as blacks whose ancestors were enslaved, and they would be GETTING THE REPARATIONS FROM PEOPLE WHOSE ANCESTORS ALSO MAY HAVE BEEN ENSLAVED AS WELL, but who were simply the wrong color to be compensated. How does that make sense? Why do you insist on valuing the suffering of the African slave more highly than that of the coolie?

Like I said, I'm in favor of reparations They can be based on documentary evidence of a wrong being committed against a person's ancestor, or they can be paid out to poor people in general, who have ALL suffered from all kinds of discrimination, as well as who were indeed in bondage.

Your way divides poor people by race. Mine unites them, and it doesn't minimize what happened to Africans who were abducted and enslaved at all.


"What is the point of your posts in this thread if not to argue that a monument to african slaves somehow would ignore or diminish the suffering of others? it seems that IS your argument."

The monument issue and the reparations issue have become pretty muddled, but I was never against a monument to the victims of the "African Slave Trade" or the victims of "Slavery in the South", but to the wording "black slaves", which implies that all blacks were slaves (they were not) and that only blacks were enslaved (that was not the case either).

I've explained the same thing over and over again and I am thoroughly blue in the face, so adieu.

BTW, if any documentation remains of which freed slaves were promised "40 acres and a mule", I would not be opposed to tracking down their descendants and giving them the monetary equivalent of such, with interest, since it was promised them.

[noiretextatique]

186. nice revision of your position

however, you misrepresented what i wrote. what i wrote was: black people are disproportinately in poverty. that word refers to percentages, not numbers, because of course, there are more white people in this country. i don't dispute class as an issue in america, however class alone does not explain those percentages.
as to reparations, as i mentioned to you several times, black people also had the priviledge of paying taxes while being systemically discriminated against, and while the same is true of indians and asians, that is not true of white people, except when it came to miscegenation laws.
hmmm...did paying reparations to the japanese cause division that wasn't already there? i wonder if the reparations paid to jewish people actually created more anti-semiticism...doubt it.
no response for why reparations were never paid the the living victims of slavery, i see. or why they haven't been paid to any other victims, e.g., indentured servants.
either racism, and in all its forms, is a heinous crime that has
caused injury...or not. that has nothing to do with poor white people, just as the existence of bill gates and other white millionaires doesn't change the fact that whites also have been amd continued to be exploited. please refrain from using oprah as an example...it is really stupid.
if there was a proposal to pay reparations to historically exploited groups of all races, i would definitely support it. if there was a proposal to pay reparations to the descendants of indentured servants, i would support that also. but...as far as i know, african-americans have been the group proposing reparations for the ills committed against them...perhaps other should follow that example, as they did with the civil rights movement.
another way to look at the call for reparations from african-americans: the first step towards america facing its ugly history, not yet another excuse for whites to be resentful. should black people be blamed for simply proposing reparations? how is that divided anyone, except those who are already resentful?
btw, most african-americans are the descendants of slaves, since the slave population was by far the largest population of africans in america. it seems a group of people have traced their lineage directly to some slaves found in a graveyard in the nothern liberal bastion of NYC. i haven't been following their lawsuit, but i won't be surprised when they lose.

[ultraist]

85. Race matters

DKoier. I did NOT say no one else deserves recognition. The OP is about the Slavery of African Americans.

Why are you trying to divert from the main topic?

The FACTS are the FACTS regardless of how you try to candycoat them.

Are you for real? "Black skin alone shouldn't be an automatic ticket to a jackpot..." A fucking jackpot?

I HARDLY think a small compensation for hundreds of years of genocide & oppression is a fucking jackpot.

We've heard your mantra before DKoier, 'poor whites are just as bad off---Blacks don't have it any worse.' And to that I say BS!

This type of denial and white privilege infuriates me.

[Terran]

51. Sigh

I thought we weren't supposed to judge people as a group.

I'm not "judging" anyone as a group. I am referring to facts, not judgments.

What about the African Americans whose ancestors were never slaves? What about the ones who participated in the slave trade?

To the first question, again your ignorance is showing. Ever heard of Jim Crow, just as a tiny for-example? To the second question, what about them? I guess they got to stay on their home continent. Not too many North American slaves "participated" in the slave trade except as slaves.

And who are you to say that the ancestors of coolies and indentured servants aren't feeling the effects? Are they in the same boat as the ancestors of the WASPS who came on the Mayflower?

To the first question, you have only to comapare Euro- and Asian-American demographics to those of African-Americans (as groups). Answer your question? To the second question, I'm afraid I don't understand it; my answer is no, they're not, but then they all had the benefit of not being Black, didn't they? So in that sense, they are in the same "boat" as the original Mayflower settlers.

And I'm not asking to be "educated" by you.

Pity.

[dogday]

32. It should not be about black or white

It has always been about green. Who has the money, who does not...

[Jara sang]

37. That is such bullshit.

How many Chinese died at the whipping post in the south?

[UdoKier]

44. Thousands died building the west

Dying in servitude out west is better than in the south?


Twelve thousand pounds of bones of coolies were sent back to China upon completion of the Transcontinental Railroad.

Beatings and other abuse were rampant.

Why is only black suffering worthy of recognition?

Why is the brutal practice of indentured servitude being defended here?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

74. get a grip

the OP was talking about a statue for Black slaves. he never said that after the statue for black slaves was built there should be no other statues built.

goddamn i cant understand why people like you always nitpick good ideas because of some false transgression.

[Jara sang]

82. Thank you so much!

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

90. it's fucking amazing isn't it?

if people lose their minds at the mere mention of a monument...or a holiday...
is it any wonder why things are they way they are?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

95. honestly i didn't expect to see this coming from DU'ers

it's damned disappointing.

[ultraist]

100. Oh, I did.

Sadly, it's true. I have yet to see a white privilege thread or a thread about racism where there are not racist comments cloaked in fallacious reasoning.

Excerpt from Letter from a Birmingham Jail: Martin Luther King, Jr
http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=40

We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have never yet engaged in a direct action movement that was "well timed," according to the timetable of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the words "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with a piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see with the distinguished jurist of yesterday that "justice too long delayed is justice denied." [/i[

[noiretextatique]

101. DU is a microcosm

of america. i am never surprised (anymore) by what i see here.

[misanthrope]

167. Not really...

...a greater percentage of the posters at DU vote in elections than does the general population and no one here voted for George Bush. I would say those two things reveal fundamental differences between DU posters and the average American.

[noiretextatique]

173. we are a part of "average america"

as much as we like to think otherwise. if only the democratic party understood that.

[Tomee450]

109. It happens all the time

when the subject is about African Americans: slavery, reparations, racism etc. No other groups are the object of such hostility. Many of the comments from people calling themselves liberal or progressive have been appalling. People do all kind of somersaults in their effort to blame the victim,to excuse injustice, to deny that reparations to people whose current condition is a direct result of slavery and over a hundred years of Jim Crow. And they are still the victim of discrimination, today.

[Kerrytravelers]

189. UdoKier --- Take a moment to reflect what is being written to you.

A few months ago I had a minor run-in with a DUer who was looking at something I wrote In a FAR different manner than I had ever intended it. I had no idea WHAT they were saying to me. Seriusly, I thought... huh?

I took a bit of time, reflected on it, and then I posted this:<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x1619>

Read my post and the responses. Maybe it will mean something to you now, maybe later, maybe never. I don't know what your frame of mind is at this point in time, but I'm just trying to reach out and make a suggestion with only the best of intentions.

Peace and Strength,

kt

[The Straight Story]

129. A quick question on that - why not american indian history month?

Not to detract from black history month (or is it african american history month?) but indians got fucked a lot worse then other groups - their whole continent was screwed.

Now one can debate the issue with the indians (ie might makes right, it was a natural expansion of the more powerful and an evolutionary thing, the indians fought and killed each other anyway so why should skin color have anything to do with their loss, and so on and so forth) but when comparing groups they got the worst of it.

Maybe we need a "People who got screwed by power hungry zealots" month, seems like a lot of people (including many whites of various nationalities who all look alike) were screwed over for the benefit of others.

Black history month is a start, I am just wondering why we stopped?

[Tomee450]

132. Why is it that when something

is suggested that might honor or benefit blacks, people like you start asking why this and that other group should not also have such a benefit or honor? Why is that? We are not talking about other ethnic groups here, but about a monument to the millions of slaves who labored without payment of any kind. People who had their families broken up, their religion denied, their culture stripped from them;people who were subjected to great brutality. There seems to be such hostility to African Americans in this society and among some on this board. Whether its Affirmative Action, reparations, anything that is suggested that might benefit black people is immediately greeted with hostility. It's really quite disturbing to see.

[The Straight Story]

146. Why is it that some people

Aren't wanting to do something across the board for all people affected by something? Why single out one group when the core evil that caused one groups' pain caused the same pain to others?

I don't have a problem with what was suggested, it is all cool and good - what I would like to see is the same desire spread across others who suffered the same fate (and one could even take this back in time to all groups as all have been oppressed at some time the world over).

What blacks went through was not anything that others have not suffered over the ages - and if the message we want to get across is how evil such things are, why aren't we uniting behind all groups who have suffered similar things and bring to light the core evil that causes such things to happen?

I am saying go for it, get it done, and then lets add more. Why is that bad?? I don't want to minimize what they went through by any stretch, I just want to expand it. Why is what wrong? Whites, Indians, christians, atheists, jews, and so on have all suffered at the hands of those in power - let's make sure we never forget for all groups and that the message is loud and clear. Those in power must not ever again pull that crap - mankind has not been kind to one another the world over. Why stop with one group?

Like I said - go for it, I endorse the idea, but let's use the momentum and work to make sure we have enough monuments that DC becomes one huge monument to the evil that mankind is capable of.

[Tomee450]

151. Just tell me what group

of people ever to come to these shores worked for hundreds of years for nothing, had their families broken up, their women raped, were denied their own religion, culture, the right to read and write. What other group of people have endured that kind of brutality? Just tell me that. There have always been people oppressed but slavery was unique in its horror and slavery in America was some of the worst ever known. The slave had no way out;his children had no way out. It was year after year, century after century of enslavement. They had no rights at all, were always at the mercy of another human being. Most of the people who came here, did so voluntarily but not so the slave and he was treated worse than anyone else. Yes the Native American people suffered badly but they never endured hundreds of years of enslavement. For your information, many of the slaves in the south would run to the Indians when attempting to flee. The Seminole nation in Florida was known to protect the fleeing slave. Many of them married black slaves. No other group of people endured the horrors of slavery and for you and other to attempt to equate the suffering of other groups to that of the slaves is truly sad. None of those other groups would have wanted to take the place of the slaves.

[The Straight Story]

154. Other Groups?

The jews over history for one. But that is one of only many groups who have suffered.

Yes, slavery was evil and wrong, and as noted I did not think it was a bad idea for a monument, just that we should add more.

Blacks enslaved blacks (and there were black slaveholders in America, and still are in some african countries). It is not about the race of the people, it is about the acts perpetrated on people by those in power.

Yeah, blacks in our history were screwed. It was wrong and evil. A monument would be fine, no argument on that. I just don't see why we don't expand the whole ideal to other groups.

It is not a race thing - power is abused across the globe by those who hold that power. Indians screwed indians, blacks did the same in africa, whites have done the same to whites - WHAT is the lesson we want to teach people? That to me is the core of my posts on this.

So we admit what others in our history who held power did was wrong to someone, why not expand that lesson and amplify it so that we can assure it is not done again? And why stop at the US government doing this? Indians wronged indians, perhaps they should do the same thing and erect monuments to educate this and future generations about how power can and was abused.

Am I way off base wanting to take this idea and expanded it in the hopes that we keep it in the mind of people that power hungry assholes screw people and that we need to stop it??

The blacks here still have a continent where their ancestors make up the majority, we erased the entire continent for the indians. The jews have been killed en masse for centuries, christians were once killed by the romans for their beliefs, tibetans were screwed, china has killed those that don't buy the party line - overall mankind has allowed power over others to be used in ways that make millions suffer for the benefit of the few.

To me that is the lesson we need to get across. Put up a monument to the slaves we had here, I am cool with that. But lets not let it end there. Let us use it as a starting point. Not sure why that is so bad...

[FinallyStartingToWin]

139. I agree with you completely

Limiting it to just one falls far short. And the native Indians definitely were probably the worst screwed in our country's history.

Course, there are probably 10 other groups that deserve attention too, from women, to irish, to mexican, to muslim, to the poor, etc..

[SemiCharmedQuark]

163. National American Indian Heritage Month already exists.

It's November. Has existed for 15 years.

[The Straight Story]

188. thank you for correcting my error!

Will look it up and research it!

[wtmusic]

165. ixnay on the onthmay

There are too many months already honoring this or that. It doesn't mean jack. No one pays attention.

For a statue or memorial someone has to cough up some dough, and it can't be conveniently "forgotten".

[Jara sang]

36. Did I say ONLY Black slaves deserve recognition?

No I did not.

[UdoKier]

60. No, the OP did.

NT

[SlavesandBulldozers]

89. really?

i must have missed it?

[jeffrey_X]

65. Becuase they carried the burden of slavery AFTER slavery was over!!!

What don't you get?

How many decendents of white slaves were lynched and had to use a separate drinking fountain???????????

[UdoKier]

71. LOL, Yeah,and after the railroads were build, Asians were treated equally!

That's a good one! Asians, along with Jews and blacks were excluded by covenants from buying homes in many communities. Japanese were IMPRISONED in WW2 just for their heritage. They weren't allowed to attend the same public schools as white kids.

What did YOU miss in history class?

[jeffrey_X]

75. How many innocent asians have been convicted of crimes they didn't

commit by all white male juries????

[SlavesandBulldozers]

76. you cannot be serious

so what you are suggesting is that a statue for the black slave is a bad idea because it doesn't include asian and white slaves?

was the Vietnam Memorial a bad idea because it didn't recognize soldiers that died in WWII? Is the WWII memorial a bad idea because it doesn't include the Gulf War?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

98. decided to bow out of this debate i guess

wise decision.

[ultraist]

113. exactly

Good example of a fallacious reasoning: "The Vietnam wall shouldn't have been built because it does not honor all soldiers from all wars."

"A monument that honors African slaves shouldn't be built because it does not honor white indentured servants."

Ridiculous.

It seems they could come up with something better than that! LMAO!

[wildeyed]

94. No one is saying that Asians and other minorities haven't been treated

poorly. And I know that Japanese were imprisoned in internment camps in WWII. And that a huge number of bad/wrong/truly evil things have happened to Native Americans and immigrants throughout our history.

But Black slavery is unique in its scope, longevity and impact on our country's history. We fought a civil war that tore our country apart and from which we have yet to heal over the issue of free vs. slave labor. So why can't we have a memorial to the Black slaves who contributed to the building of this country? Maybe that could be the start of some healing, too. And how does acknowledging the suffering and contributions that slaves made to the building of this country diminish the suffering and contributions of other immigrants and minority groups?

Or do you think that there is only so much acknowledgment to go around so we have to fight like dogs for scraps over the little bit of compassion there is left in the world?

[noiretextatique]

103. you must have missed the reparations paid to japanese americans

and again, recognizing the horror of slavery, jim crow, and racism is not an affront to any other group that has suffered because of white supremacy and/or the american government.

[UdoKier]

122. Reparations were strictly for the forced repatriation.

They had nothing to do with the systematic abuse and discrimination visited upon all Asians from the 1800s until the 1950s.

And if the monument is about racism, fine, if it's about the Underground Railroad, and you wish to be specific, fine. But if it is about "Slavery", it should include all people who have been enslaved. If you want to make it specific to the peculiar institution of Southern slavery, then do so, but making it about "blacks" seems racist to me.

[noiretextatique]

172. how, exactly, would it be "racist?"

look...what happened to the japanese was tragic. the lost businesses, property, education. i think they should get all of that back. however that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
now...explain to me how dealing with the racism that america as yet to acknowledge even existed vis a vis the african slave trade is "racist."
what's racist is the ridiculous belief that a momument for african slaves somehow diminishes the suffering of anyone else.

[XemaSab]

140. Only Chinese men were allowed to come here

for a long time for fear they would BREED and have baby Chinese.

The Japanese were not only imprisoned, but they had all their property stolen, and this is in living memory.

[Jara sang]

35. Hey, Black slavery is the most notorious.

That is not fair. Didn't the indentured servants and Chinese come to America of their own free will?

[MadHound]

39. No, white slaves didn't come here of their own free will

Check out my post 18 above for more information. However blacks did suffer much longer under the slavery system, and have been discriminated against on a systematic basis. White slavery in this country was for only aprox one hundred years, and there was no systematic discrimination, except for that of class, which seems to be almost endemic in all societies.

[Jara sang]

50. I know the history

And to enter into indentured servitude one had to sign a contract, that is freewill.

[MadHound]

86. Many whites didn't come here of their own free will

And many didn't sign contracts for passage. Many many were seized off of the streets, mainly children, thrown on a boat, possibly to die on the way over here, and once in America were brutally worked, many times unto death.

Interesting to note, the word kidnapping originally comes from this time period, a contraction of the words "kid nabbing", which is exactly what was going on.

[noiretextatique]

91. i fail to understand your argument

what does it have to do with a monument for african slaves?

[ultraist]

108. Nothing

It has nothing to do with a monument for African slaves.

Comparing indentured servitude to African slavery is a bad analogy. Further, claiming that those who'd like to see such a monument are denying the facts about indentured servitude is an extended analogy. We said NO SUCH THING. Drawing that extension is false.

The argument is totally ILLOGICAL. There is NO REASON to discuss indentured servitude in this thread except to DIVERT and justify denial.

Those purporting this nonsense need to a refresher course on basic logic.

[QC]

105. No, you clearly don't know the history,

if you believe that indentured servitude was some sort of libertarian fantasy of workers freely entering into voluntary contracts.

If you doubt me, check out Zinn's People's History, as recommended above. You might also take a look at John Wareing's "'Violently taken away or cheatingly duckoyed'. The illicit recruitment in London of indentured servants for the American colonies, 1645-1718" in London Journal 26, and Gary B. Nash's Red, White, and Black: The Peoples of Early America. John Van Der Zee's Bound Over: Indentured Servitude and American Conscience is also worth reading.

For info on the conditions under which indentured servants traveled, see Gottlieb Mittelberger's 1754 account. Here are some highlights:

Children from 1 to 7 years rarely survive the voyage. I witnessed misery in no less than 32 children in our ship, all of whom were thrown into the sea. The parents grieve all the more since their children find no resting-place in the earth, but are devoured by the monsters of the sea....

When the ships have landed at Philadelphia after their long voyage, no one is permitted to leave them except those who pay for their passage or can give good security; the others, who cannot pay, must remain on board the ships till they are purchased, and are released from the ships by their purchasers. The sick always fare the worst, for the healthy are naturally preferred and purchased first; and so the sick and wretched must often remain on board in front of the city for 2 or 3 weeks, and frequently die, whereas many a one, if he could pay his debt and were permitted to leave the ship immediately, might recover and remain alive.

The sale of human beings in the market on board the ship is carried on thus: Every day Englishmen, Dutchmen and High-German people come from the city of Philadelphia and other places, in part from a great distance, say 20, 30, or 40 hours away, and go on board the newly arrived ship that has brought and offers for sale passengers from Europe, and select among the healthy persons such as they deem suitable for their business, and bargain with them how long they will serve for their passage money, which most of them are still in debt for. When they have come to an agreement, it happens that adult persons bind themselves in writing to serve 3, 4, 5 or 6 years for the amount due by them, according to their age and strength. But very young people, from 10 to 15 years, must serve till they are 21 years old.

Many parents must sell and trade away their children like so many head of cattle; for if their children take the debt upon themselves, the parents can leave the ship free and unrestrained; but as the parents often do not know where and to what people their children are going, it often happens that such parents and children, after leaving the ship, do not see each other again for many years, perhaps no more in all their lives.

It often happens that whole families, husband, wife, and children, are separated by being sold to different purchasers, especially when they have not paid any part of their passage money.

When a husband or wife has died at sea, when the ship has made more than half of her trip, the survivor must pay or serve not only for himself or herself, but also for the deceased.

http://www.historicaldocuments.com/GottliebMittelberger.htm

Is this to say that all the various forms of colonial bondage were exactly the same? Of course not. But it's clear that indentured servitude was not the Colonial Era's form of Junior Achievement, either.

[UdoKier]

40. Did they? I don't think that they all did...

nt

[Terran]

59. You don't think?

I haven't ever seen any documentation about "white slavery" in America, except maybe Zinn's book, which is not exactly highly respected academic circles, from what I've seen today.

To be fair, I suspect a lot of Chinese were forced to come to America, and not just for the railroads, and many lived in what amounted to slavery. The difference here is not only one the vastness of scope of the institution of formally recognized US slavery, but of the lasting effects of white hatred for Africans, much of which is completely unknown today. Try googling: Springfield Missouri riot. After you've read something about it, multiply that event by a hundred and you get an idea of what was being to perpetrated against Black people centuries after there were any white people "enslaved" in this country.

The only people in this country who have had it remotely as bad as Africans are Native Americans, and I notice you haven't even mentioned them.

[UdoKier]

69. I only omitted them because the topic is slavery.

A monument to Native American genocide would be entirely appropriate.

And the only people I know of who diss Zinn are rightwingers and phony establishment "liberals".

It's one of the best books I've ever read. A real eye-opener.

An I think the mountains of Chinese corpses would disagree with you that "blacks had it worse"... if they could talk. An atrocity is an atrocity.

[Terran]

72. "An atrocity is an atrocity"

Finally, something I agree with. I'm the last person to try to play, "Whose suffering was greater?"

The subject, however, is also about building monuments, presumably paid for by those who were responsible for the wrong. The US government and state governments upheld African slavery as an institution; therefore it is entirely appropriate that governments should put up a monument to the atrocity. Try getting corporate America to take the blame for the wrongs perpetrated against Chinese workers. And as for "white slaves," well that was pretty much a one-on-one arrangement between master and servant, was it not? No vast economies developed around a global trade in white slaves. Hard to pin that blame on anyone.

[noiretextatique]

99. the topic the OP posed was about BLACK slavery

an atrocity is an atrocity, which begs the question: why are you trying so hard to diminish and dismiss away the atrocity of american chattel slavery, and the suffering of africans and african-americans because of it? what's up with this competition of tears mentality of yours?

[XemaSab]

142. If you think Native Americans

weren't enslaved, you should come out West some time and take a look at a mission.

The Padres didn't build the missions themselves.

[QC]

107. The only people who have a problem with Zinn are reactionaries

who believe that leftists should be neither seen nor heard. I would suggest that you read the book for yourself and reach your own conclusions.

[jeffrey_X]

62. How many whites are born in the ghetto and oppressed from day 1?

nfm

[ArtVandaley]

26. Have one honor the blacks who fought for the Union in the Civil War

How could anyone possibly object to this?

[MadHound]

27. Or if you want to watch freepers and racists heads explode

Put up one honoring the blacks who fought for the South.

[northzax]

191. you mean like this one?

http://www.nps.gov/afam/

it already exists, corner of 10th and USt, NW, in the heart of what was once the wealthiest, most educated black neighborhood in the country (more than Harlem, even) Duke Ellington got his start across the street.

[Divameow77]

28. There should be a monument

honoring the abolishment of slavery, all slaves. There should be monuments for alot of things.

[MadHound]

29. Hear hear!

But sadly, there won't be.

[misanthrope]

48. Then just make it...

...a huge pair of broken manacles.

[Jara sang]

55. Yes slavery is a horrible institution

However I think that we need to acknowledge Black slaves in particular for their plight was a unique one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Sorry. Killers are much more popular than builders.

Generals and soldiers looking heroic are much better sellers and keep the flag wavers salivating for more blood than mere slaves (especially those of the wrong color) who actually build things.

[Zhade]

49. A monument to the Native Americans (my ancestors)...

...murdered in the conquest of America wouldn't hurt, either. I think most people could accept and appreciate it.

Good post!

[Jara sang]

53. Indeed, a monument and a whole lot more. n/t

[Zhade]

63. Yeah, like decent living conditions for one.

Don't EVEN get me started on the abuses NAs STILL suffer. I'll get too angry and will have to leave work (plus I don't want to hijack the thread).

[Jara sang]

185. I've driven through Pine Ridge and the Navajo Nation.

I've seen it.

[wildeyed]

52. Love the idea of the statue straddling the Potomac

like the Colossus of Rhodes. Unfortunately nothing in DC is allowed to be taller than the Washington Monument, so I doubt that would fly. Maybe a pedestrian bridge of some sort of startling and unique design?

[Jara sang]

54. It is the Capitol dome actually.

What ever it is it has to be powerful.

[wildeyed]

83. I like the bridge image of bringing together,

of healing, but something that is powerful at the same time. Maybe there could be some interactive elements as well.

Unfortunately, with the tenor of these political times, I doubt we are anywhere close to making something like this happen. But it is nice to dream. Also, the fact that we can't discuss this topic with anything resembling civility here at DU doesn't give me a lot of hope :(

[applegrove]

56. There is no monument to slavery on the mall? Wow! I can't believe

that.

Wow!

[ultraist]

111. No, but there is a MLK plaque on the mall

It's not very impressive. It's a small plaque on the ground.

This is to be built in 2006 from private donations:


http://www.mlkmemorial.org/index.htm

[applegrove]

177. Wow! That is really harsh. Wonder why Rice doesn't get on that right

away?

[KT2000]

57. This is a great idea

for so many reasons. The mythology of this country needs to be corrected in a most public and permanent way. In order to float the myth that the Europeans created this country, slavery and the contribution of the people themselves is always swept under the rug and minimized.

It is true that we must recognize the holocaust that did occur but there is something else too. The denial of slavery and its impact of that denial on subsequent generations must be acknowldeged too. Honoring the people who were brought here against their will is long overdue. That they were victims is a major part of the story, but they were also decent and honorable human beings whose contributions permeate America but are rarely acknowledged.

A huge monument sounds good - one that honors the people who gave so much more than we can imagine.

[DeaconBlues]

58. I'm all for the idea, but it will never happen

All the monuments on the mall are a tribute to triumphalism (except for the Vietnam Memorial, which is tucked away in a corner). It would be too much of a bummer to all those who go sight-seeing in Washington in order to get aroused by all the patriotic totems.

[DerekG]

61. We have a Holocaust museum (?!?!) but our own atrocities go unnoticed

Allow me to repeat: we have a musuem devoted to a holocaust that didn't even occur on our soil, yet the twin horrors of the genocidal war against the Native American and the enslavement of the African--arguably the greatest crimes in modern history--go unnoticed.

A bid odd, no?

[Jara sang]

84. i was going to try to tie into the Native American holocaust in this post.

But I really thought that the two issues most undoubtedly deserve to be addressed separately as they are both neglected by our society and they serve their "own time".

[Ellen Forradalom]

64. Now that is a great idea.

One does well to remember how patiently African-Americans endured their bondage. I, for one, think the black experience in America is a tremendous success story. This despite setbacks, obstacles, and persistent problems from within and without their community.

[jeffrey_X]

66. This is a great idea!

nm

[funflower]

68. Excellent idea! Who's going to get this going?

Maybe it could be some sort of bridge across the Potomac.

Or just something really beautiful on the Mall.

[DemBeans]

73. I totally agree

I'd read that of all the statues in Washington, DC, there's only one of an African-American (Mary McLeod Bethune). That's a pretty slim representation given the many statues in the District, as well as the population of African-Americans in DC. That really needs to change, and your idea is a good start.

[William Bloode]

77. I whole heartedly agree!

Blacks slaves made a huge contribution to this country, and i think a monument honoring their toil and sacrifice would be a nice gesture.

[noiretextatique]

87. fuck a monument...it would never happen anyway

just look at the RESENTMENT posted right here in this thread for a peek a what would happen if this was actually proposed. "well...what about indentured servants?...and the chinese...and wouldn't that be RACIST anyway" :puke:

here's what i propose instead a monument. how about a refund of taxes paid by anyone adversely affected by jim crow? that would include asians, indians, and latinos, so those who are so concerned about black people getting anything could rest easy. and, yes...the payments would be in CASH, not a JACKPOT, as one colorblind person suggested in this thread, but as much as was paid in...plus interest, and perhaps we can throw in a penalty.

[sweetheart]

88. And as well the american indians

There are monuments to the white-men killed in indian wars, like in
the new mexico capital square of santa fe... but not the reciprocal for
the original american people.

If we're to go down the path of revisionist history erecting monuments
to all those wronged, perhaps we should start by fixing those wrongs
in the present first.

Blacks still get the shaft, overwhelmingly imprisoned, more likely to
be poor, and so many things, that to sell out the reality for another
stupid symbol, is a victory of image over substance... and something
that cheats real justice.

A much better monument would be an end to gerrymandering, jim crow
laws, black-bias in the prison justice system, and economic equality
in opportunity, employment and wages. Until these things are sorted,
the monuments to slavery are to fix our own egos, and not to make
reparations... another in a long line of the false apologies of the
politically correct assholes.

[noiretextatique]

92. i have to agree, sweetheart

a part of me finds the whole monument idea offensive, especially considering the conditions many african-americans and indians live in today. revisionist history...interesting way to look at it, and i agree.

[noiretextatique]

96. to those bringing up indians, chinese, and indentured servants

may i ask why you believe that's relevant to the topic at hand? i ask because this often happens when the issue of reparations for slavery comes up here.
i don't see this happening when the title read "indian" or "latino" or anything else except "black."
what is it about the black experience that brings forth attempts to diminish it or otherwise meld it into some sort of competition of tears between some other group?

[sweetheart]

102. reparations for injustice as a form of justice

and justice is blind. It is not to diminish in any way any injustice,
as much as the iraqi people are paying the current price, in everyday
lives lost and the most injustice TODAY.

I am all for justice, and to colour justice as seeing one race or
another defeats the very thing. However, in each single case, justice
must be done, or the very foundation of whatever kind of society we
think we're on about, has feet of clay.

Sorry i brought up indians... the "monument" thinking got me to
thinking about the last monument to the hero's of yesterday i saw,
and it was in santa fe's main square... and it was to white men who
killed indians.... whilst the indian descendents sit on open air
stalls selling cheap trinkets to tourists whilst rich white people
own art galleries all about the square.... the appearance of justice
with the reality anything but.

Sorry for letting that vision bleed over, and not saying specifically
"black" persons... but the same syndrome of symptoms is reflected, of
heralding injustice through monuments, and doing nothing on the ground
for those who are really affected.

[noiretextatique]

106. sweetheart, thanks for replying

but i wasn't referring to you, actually. i thought your post was great at connecting the dots, and i agree with you. however, i don't have the luxury of being colorblind...it's just not a part of my reality. i see the iraqis as the latest victims of america's "white man's burden/privilege" complex. to be fair, the complex should be called "dominant white male cultural paradigm burden."

i was referring to a few folks in this thread who keep bringing up the treatment of chinese and indetured servants. of course i abhor all injustice, however, i find it curious that this "syndrome" seems to happen when the topic is related to black people. i wonder if it's a part of the denial syndrome...or what.

the difference between your posts and theirs is: you aren't trying to create some sort of comepetition or dismiss the experience of african-americans are insignificant or irrelevant...because so and so had a terrible experience also.

i do think color-filled justice is still necessary...i believe it more everytime i see such resistance to acknowledging the wrongs done *specifically* to african-americans.

[sweetheart]

110. Long term problems require strategic measures

I'm sickened, really sickened by the facts of black equality today.
It makes me feel like puking to call our society one of equals given
the hipocrisy... and you and i agree totally that this problem cannot
be dealt with with surface measures... that serious reparations need
be achieved. If nothing else, given age and education, the government
sould cut a cheque to every black person that they are paid the white
man's average wage.

That is not colour blind, as i was speaking, but rather weighing the
specific case....

There is a huge denial complex, i believe sold by hollywood, where still
today, appearances belie a wholly different and less pleasant truth...
and those who have not done the time getting to know the sickening
and really sickening levels of race inequality in america today, are
mentally prepared to crack a joke from the latest television sitcom and
forget about it.... what about all those poor nazi war criminals after
WW2, and whether they were exploited for a living wage! What about
all those neocon criminals, and why is the pubic paying for their
corporate bailouts? We can water anything down with relativism.

Justice... the real deal, JUSTICE must be done for all, or there is
no nation worth preserving. You and I totally agree about what that
justice really is....

Great good hearted blessings to you and yours noirblu.

[QC]

150. I didn't bring up those subjects, but I'll take a stab at this one.

Personally, I think the idea of placing a monument to the slaves on the Mall is an excellent one. I'm with you and the original poster on this one.

I think that the indentured/convict labor issue is an important one for several reasons. One is that it's a very ugly chapter in our own history that not one American in a hundred knows the slightest thing about. Schoolbooks gloss over it, lest the kiddies start getting ideas about whether this is really a place where anyone who works hard can get ahead. The truth of the matter is that at least half of the early European settlers of this country, and by some estimates even three-quarters, came in bondage. In the early years, the majority of those died within a very short time. Only a tiny fraction of them ever got their fifty acres and became independent farmers. The vast majority died under indenture or became the ancestors of today's poor white class, a group of people that even exquisitely "enlightened liberals and progressives" feel free to dump on, as we see every day right here at DU. Well, "rednecks" and "white trash" are products of their history, like everyone else, and if we are going to bring some measure of justice to this country we need to know that history.

Second, I'm one of those hopelessly old-fashioned lefties who believe that class still matters. I think it's important for people to know that this country was built on bonded labor, and that those who were in charge were willing to exploit anyone they could get their hands on. Sounds kinda like the world we live in today, doesn't it?

Third, I believe that most modern American lefties just aren't very good on class issues. We can riff on race and gender until the cows come home, but class is mostly forgotten. The history of those colonials in bondage is an excellent reminder of how powerful class has been and remains. If we are ever going to build a coalition that can take this country back, we are going to have to get up to speed on class again.

Last, American racism is a product of the class system that predated it. It's hard to understand racism without understanding the social dynamics that brought it into being.

So yeah, I'm with you on the need for a tangible commemoration of the slaves who helped build this country, but I think that exploitation takes many forms, all of which genuine progressives need to know about. That's why I'm always willing to discuss the subjects of indentured servitude, convict labor, sharecropping, tenant farming, etc.

[noiretextatique]

176. thanks for your response, QC

i see you share my "both...and" perspective. however, i don't think some of the posters i was referring to do...their posts smacked of an "either...or" pov to me. i am somewhat queasy about the idea of a monument, personally, but i was commenting on the opposition to it, and the insistence of one in particular that honoring african slaves would be "racist." i don't agree with that perspective, and i am aware of that classism, like sexism, is intricately connected to racism.
all isms, and how they work in tandem, is completely whitewashed in the history that most of us are taught, so it is important to discuss all of it. however, i am struck by the dynamic i described...the mention of anything remotely "black" tends to illicit predictable responses, much like the unconditioned response of the dogs in pavlov's research.

[eleny]

104. Where should it be erected?

If not D.C., then where?
If in D.C. at what location?

This is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. You're brilliant!

[Swamp Rat]

112. How about a giant statue of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

in EVERY town square to remind Americans of the dream we once had?

I'm not big on monuments or flags, etc. as the money could be spent elsewhere. How about we put King on Mt. Rushmore next to Sitting Bull and Ceasar Chaves?

How about some reparations for a change? We can consider a few monuments dedicated to African slaves as a down payment and a promise for the billions to come. :D

[XemaSab]

145. There's a VERY large

Crazy Horse monument being sculpted in South Dakota.

http://www.crazyhorse.org

[Swamp Rat]

159. Not big enough!

:D

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

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[noiretextatique]

118. interesting belief

on what do you base this belief of yours that slaves did little economically, socially or culturally for america? thanks.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[ultraist]

124. You implied slaves did not contribute economically

You stated that slaves contributed nothing to the nation and went right into economic issues, citing the weak economy in the South. How convenient.

http://www.blacknla.com/news/econslav.asp

Slavery raises a host of negative images for Black people; so much so, they fail to realize the tremendous economic contributions they made, albeit forced, to the development of the United States into a world power. This lack of realization stems from the national shame of slavery and the concomitant national denial, which in reality has become a weak defense mechanism. To a large degree Blacks and whites have bought into this denial, albeit for different reasons. In spite of this contribution Blacks continue to vie for respect and acceptance by the very country that they practically own via a down payment with their own blood, sweat, and tears. Through the shame of slavery African Americans continue to amortize the "Debt" they are owed.

The resulting hypothesis of this economic analysis of slavery is that the current "Debt" is too large to foster healthy discussions with whites and continued avoidance of such discussions has been and will continue to be disguised under a variety of racist manipulations
The first African slaves hit the shores of the United States in 1619 and were constantly imported into the US until 1860 even though importation had been outlawed in 1830's. Over those intervening 246 years they contributed more than 605 billion hours of free labor, which funded the industrial revolution, financed most of the fortune 500 companies, helped finance two world wars, and left a negative sociological impact on an entire race of people. Slaves born in the US since slave importation started decreasing in 1810 supplied most of the labor. Importation as a source of free labor was replaced by forced breeding because it was more profitable. However, the profits obtained from slave importation was phenomenal since slaves could be purchased in Africa for less than $40 and sold in the US for between $500 and $1,000. Profits obtained from a single ship traversing the golden triangle passage averaged greater than $175,000 even though as many as one in three of the slaves died during the middle passage. Commodities (cotton, tobacco, Bibles, and guns) were the cargoes on the other two legs of the triangle.

To determine the economic value of slavery, the population of slaves in the US was obtained from the US Census Bureau1, 2 and is presented in Table 1. It was assumed that, on average, slaves worked some 60 hours per week for 51 weeks during the years with the average pay rate of $.10 per hour. All of these assumptions are conservative since underreporting was a common practice since state and local taxes had to be paid on the number of slaves. This practice of underreporting was offset somewhat by congressional representation requiring slaves to be counted as 3/5 of a person.

The results of the economic value of the free labor for each 10-year period is given in the third column of table 1 called Labor Cost. The value of this labor, when inflated to current dollars at a conservative 3% inflation rate, yields a staggering value of $17.5 trillion Dollars or to put this number in a more visual perspective; amounts to almost $490,000 per black person currently living in the US. This amount is low since slave labor is counted from the year 1700 instead of 1619 and, as mentioned previously, the census data is, in all likelihood, low. The $17.5 trillion dollar slave contribution is still within the US and western world economies since in an inflationary economy - money, like matter, is never destroyed. This slave-induced contribution is still working and funding new ventures, within the US economy as we speak. Those who made this contribution, albeit forced, have been denied access to the very capital and business accouterments they developed.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

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[Tomee450]

130. No, the bolding in the middle

is not absurd. This country was built on the backs of slaves. Unfortunately, many in the country prefer to deny that fact.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

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[Tomee450]

134. You see what you want to see

and that is rather sad. Great fortunes were built on the backs of slaves. Many of the insurance companies operating today were very involved in the slave trade. Great universities such as Brown were established with the money received from slavery. You will believe what you wish but the truth is there for all to see. Unfortunately, some will never see the truth for the last thing they want is to see this government or private companies doing anything to make up for the great injustice done to the slaves and their descendants. It should open up a lot of eyes to see that some people not only do not want this country to apologize for slavery but do not want a monument built to people on whose backs this nation was built.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

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[Jara sang]

137. You are woefully ignorant of the facts.

The slaves were the economy. You could trade them like you could trade gold. You seem to ignore the interwoven tapestry of the global economy from 1492 to the late 18th century. First of all the Spanish intent was to use "Indians" as forced labor. However the Europeans introduced diseases to the Indians which wiped out their labor base. This forced the Spanish and later other European nations to turn to Africa as their source for labor. How can you honestly believe that slaves didn't contribute to the wealth of the European colonies and later the U.S.? Every single facade of the economy involved slavery, sure the North abolished slavery however, they still imported cotton for their textile mills, that was supporting slavery and those mills were opperating only becuse their was slave labor. Everything in the ecomy back then was tied to slavery, everything. You don't think it was genocide? What would you call it then? Not genocide? Tell that to this guy:

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

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[Jara sang]

143. Do you believe the killing of Native Americans was genocide? n/t

[QC]

152. "Farming requires no skills"

I'm speechless. Ever done any farming? Even planted a backyard garden?

As for the Northern economy not collapsing after the War, that's not much of a mystery: Contrary to your earlier statement that land was redistributed during Reconstruction, the truth is that the planters mostly held on to their land, and they and the Northern financial and textile interests quickly replaced the old institution of chattel slavery with sharecropping and tenant farming, a new order that combined the worst features of Southern feudalism and Northern laissez-faire capitalism, thus keeping the cotton rolling in to the New England mills and the payments to the Wall Street banks.

While we're on the subject of that Northern economy, who do you think profited enormously from the slave trade? Massachusetts and Rhode Island dominated it, with New York doing its share. The great early fortunes of that part of the world were mostly made in the rum and slave trade.

[ultraist]

144. Yes, 2 million Africans died during the Middle passage alone!

And how many were brutally murdered after they reached the US? Not to mention the insidious forms of genocide.

Did you notice his comment that "slaves were not heroes?" I'd say that people that endured that level of cruelty and inhumane treatment are heroes. Furthermore, slaves were very active in bringing about abolition. That person is obviously IS "woefully ignorant of the facts."

Sounds like the "master was good to his slaves" argument to me.

[Jara sang]

148. Agreed, it is a hard habit to break.

It is the same way corporations today treat those that support them, with utter indifference, as property.

[youthere]

115. Yup.

[peacebaby3]

125. There is a beautiful Civil Rights Monument in Montgomery, AL

It has the names of all the people (or all who are known) who lost their lives in the movement. It was designed by Maya Lin and sits in front of the Southern Poverty Law Center. It is very moving and I can't quite put into words how you feel when you visit. You are literally standing in the water and placing your hands in the water to touch the names carved in the stone (the water washes down over them). There is the amazing quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. - "Until Justice Rolls Down Like Waters, And Rightousness Like A Mighty Stream."

When you are standing there reading that quote and running your hand the rolling waters over the names, it makes you feel so many emotions. Here is a link to more about the monument:

<http://www.splcenter.org/crm/memorial.jsp>

I know it is not directed exactly towards slavery, but it is so powerful. The really sad thing is that people that supported the work of the SPLC and people that worked for SPLC had it built, not the State.

I would definitely support an official monument in our capital!

[Pushed To The Left]

135. SPLC is a great organization! n/t

[Jara sang]

138. I would like to walk the Selma to Montgomery trail

On the anniversary of the Freedom March sometime.

[peacebaby3]

160. I have with President Clinton.

I think it was in 1999 or 2000 that he flew in on Air Force One and walked part of the trail. I walked as well. Walking over the Edmund Pettus Bridge was the part that really got to you. Almost everyone holding hands. Truly amazing! I would highly recommend the experience if you get the chance. Although I doubt you will see the current occupant of the White House there.

[oasis]

170. Clinton made his magnificent "son of the south" speech on the bridge

that day. It was one of his best.

[journalist3072]

133. Awesome post! Kick!

You're absolutely right that we need a monument to Black slaves. As an African-American, this is close to my heart.

However, the United States has never fully atoned for the crime of slavery. It's never formally apologized. And the United States has yet to pay the debt it owes Black America.

[alphafemale]

147. There is one in Savannah, GA

from:
http://www.pbase.com/savannahga/image/25559017

Maya Angelou contributed this quote:
"We were stolen, sold and bought together from the African continent. We got on the slave ships together. We lay back to belly in the holds of the slave ships in each others' excrement and urine together, sometimes died together, and our lifeless bodies thrown overboard together."

In a January letter to the monument's planning committee, Dr. Angelou proposed an upbeat coda: "Today, we are standing up together, with faith and even some joy. . ."

http://users.accesscomm.ca/ediversity/slavery.html

[spacelady]

153. Hey, I' a monument artist w/20 years' experience...

diamond point hand engraved on granite, ideas welcome.

Edited to add: I would do it for free, only cost would be materials & installation, my personal work would be free. I would post examples if someone would explain how to do this. I'm computer literate but unfamiliar with posting on message boards!? Thanks in advance for any help.

[NuttyFluffers]

158. i think it's a great idea and would love to see your vision...

it'd be nice to see this come to fruition.

and heck, if the gov't doesn't sponsor it on their property i'm sure it'd be moving enough to make the rounds in the art circuit.

i'm surprised there isn't more statuary about the other major events, besides generals and horses, that help build our history.

[ultraist]

164. John Biggers

A mural by John Biggers would be cool!

http://www.mfa.org/exhibitions/biggers.html

The Art of John Biggers

January 18 - April 21, 1997, Torf Gallery


by Edmund Barry Gaither
Like an African griot, or teacher, John Biggers is a storyteller. Using a visual language inspired by ancient astronomy and African symbolic imagery, he creates murals, drawings, paintings, and sculpture that derive their power from a deeply felt commitment to the human community.

Born in Gastonia, North Carolina, in 1924, John Biggers has used his gifts as a teacher and artist to shape the image of black people, whether Southern or African, as humane, universal spirits. Using the powerful language of murals, and his interest in sacred geometry, Biggers has synthesized influences from American regionalism, African-American figurative tradition, African and Native American sources into uniquely intriguing aesthetic and iconographic works. His drawings, prints, paintings, and sculptures establish him as an important and original American artist, especially in the field of murals.

The Contribution of Negro Women to American Life and Education by John Biggers

[izzybeans]

155. There should be...and they should be replace every confederate

flag hanging on southern state capitals. Then there should be a monument equal in stature to our "founding fathers" in washington as well.

[laura888]

161. Absolutely!

I've been saying this for years. You just cannot talk about the history of the U.S. without giving a large and prominent paragraph to slavery.

Before we build another friggin' war memorial, a memorial/museum to slavery on the mall is a MUST.

[tom_paine]

162. YES! An absolutely terrific idea!

It simply never occurred to me, but now that it has, what a damned fine idea!

As to the specifics of your propsal, I would have my doubts, but some sort of monument would be fitting.

One for Native Americans, too.

[sweetheart]

166. If you really want a monument, how about slaves?

There are more slaves in pure numbers in the world today, than there
were during slavery. The monuments are in whorehouses and sweatshops
all over the country.

But if you must have a monument to forget the living slaves with, then
perhaps a huge statue of a white man with a whip, that looks just like
Dick Cheney. And the whip's tail could be just snapping near the ground
with an electrode on the end, hot with electric-fence current from a
cattle fence battery. Then people could walk up and get whipped for
free and feel good about themselves.

YOu could also just change the signs in front of the US miliatry
recruitment place nearest the mall, to join the slave masters and
learn about slavery by doing it! Perhaps a more fitting monument
would be to string up hundreds of dead bodies by the neck all around
the capital building to remind the congress what they stand for...

Or maybe dig a huge pit in the mall, 10 stories deep and put a diving
board over the pit, with an invitation to people feeling sad and
morbid to join the slaves of past times, by offing themelsves. Then
as the pit started to fill up with dead bodies, stinking and all, like
an open mass grave, people would be reminded of slavery, and how
alive it is today.

[neweurope]

169. There certainly should be.

It surprises me that there is none yet - in the year of the Lord 2005...


---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Pathwalker]

171. HERE IS ONE!!!!!

Here is a photo of a monument to the Underground Railroad, located at one of it's stations, in Battle Creek, Michigan, and an article about it.




http://www.wkkf.org/Knowledgebase/Pubs/RenderRes.aspx?CID=0&ID=3704

[Book Lover]

175. I think that is a great idea

And although the actual Colossus of Rhodes did not straddle the harbor entrance, I think we should make ours do it. The only flaw is that it would depict one gender (pretty minor point).

I am sorry to say that I was naive enough to be shocked at some of the vitriol that has been expresses on this thread. There's enough room in the US to memorialize all groups and events in our past, negative and positive.

[entanglement]

181. I really like the 'Colossus' idea, great post n/t

[HEyHEY]

187. I'll tell ya something else - MLK should be on currency of some sort

COnsidering he fought one of the last battles for freedom when it was at its most dangerous to do so.

[northzax]

190. I disagree

and allow me to explain.

We build a monument on the Mall for people and things we want to think of gloriously in the past, that is why Vietnam is so powerful, it is not a commemoration, it is a memorial. Unless you spend time every day on the Mall, or around monuments, it's hard to tell the difference, but it's there. to build a slavery monument on the Mall is to forget. Instead every town should have it's own small monument, something to remember what happened there. 1,000 small monuments hav emore power than one large one that people will see once in their lifetimes, if that. There is more power and sadness in every small town that has a plaque to their war dead than in any monument on the Mall, including Vietnam.

remember locally, that's what matters.

[Kerrytravelers]

192. A wonderful idea- unfortunately, a thread that went out of control

A wonderful idea. I have never been to Washington DC. I can not believe there isn't one there already. Why?

Don't bother. I bet I know why. Just reading this thread alone is a peek inside the average American mind- frightening.

I am all for honoring all those who have been enslaved, but this particular post was about one for African Slaves, the group that has suffered the most damage for the longest period of time from slavery. Unfortunately, we lost track of what the subject was, and for that, even thought I came in here threes days after the fighting, I apologize to Jara Sang because this wonderful idea we should all, as liberals, join together and support and MAKE HAPPEN has gotten lost amid posts that have nothing to do with the idea of a monument- including one who actully wrote- in the subject line- I was waiting for someone to bite, thank you.

Perhaps bring it up again sometime. I'll always support the idea!

kt

[BronxBoy]

193. Good Idea

But first it would be nice to at least get an apology. It has always amazed me that of all of the men who have led this nation, not one has had the cojones to stand up and say that slavery was wrong and that it was a dark period in America and that the country is sorry for it's past trangressions. Nor has anyone spoken of the blood sacrificed by the Native Americans or the Chinese rail workers or any of the other groups that have been seriously and systematically oppressed in this country. It just seems that apparently this country has stepped on so many different groups throughout it's history, that in attempting to honor the horrors of the past of one group, so other group who feels similiarly aggived is inevitably going to say "What about me?".

Now I'm going to put on my flame suit. I think that Blacks shouldn't wait for America to build memorials to our suffering and our contributions to this country, We should do it ourselves. There is absolutely no reason, given the influence and wealth of the Black community, that we cannot concieve, finance and build these monuments to our accomplishments. While it would be nice for America to stand up and say we made a grivous mistake, it ain't gonna happen. So why can't we build our own monmuments and testimonials and in doing so, make sure that it not only acknowledges our contributions to the country but also makes it absolutely clear how horrific and inhumane the cost of many of those contributions were. And it pains me that it sometimes seems that within the Black community, we are waiting for someone else to acknowledge our suffering. If there was a movement within the Black community to build the type of monument like that cited in the OP, I know I would certainly give whatever I could afford in both time and money to help see it get accomplished.

I know where the OP was going and it is a noble thought but why do we have to wait a government that for most of it's history has treated us ignobly to lend significance to OUR history.