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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:58 AM
Original message
Fight, take flight, or bend over and take it?
An issue that has concerned me for several years now is this: what can be done in a practical way to turn the tide of American Theocratic Fascism. I don’t think that there is any doubt that it is upon us now, and anyone with any sense of history knows that this is not a good thing. So, I ask you, what exactly can be done? And by this I mean concrete actions, not stuff like “they ought to pass a law against that” with no thought to the “they” being referenced.

Let me start with my own list of possible approaches:

1. Whine and bitch. And I mean this in a positive sense, let your friends know how you feel and if you have the talent (as many here do) write and publish wherever you can to shake up and educate those citizens we all know who are hypnotized into somnambulance by their TVs.

2. Demonstrate. Public demonstrations have been effective in the past because they force other citizens to consider the issues being demonstrated for or against. This was a powerful tool when such demonstrations were covered by the mass media, now you can get a million people out on the streets and the only people who will know about it are those inconvenienced by the mobs. I exaggerate, of course, but I do think the point is valid. The corporate media is not our friend and will not support our goals.

3. Bombard our politicians with letters, email, etc. This used to work when politicians had to depend on their constituents for votes. Now, with the advent of electronic voting, this does not seem to be the case. Our politicians work for the people who pay to get them elected: their constituents are our major corporations and other wealthy special interests.

4. Promote unions and other interest groups that are on our side. This works as long as the leaders of those unions are truly working for their workers . . . a situation that is not always true. Some unions are clearly formed as a branch of management in order to keep the workers ignorant and helpless.

5. Promote selective boycotts. Economics is the bread-and-butter of Fascism. Boycotts can speak loudly, if they can be promoted successfully. Could we, say, selectively boycott Disney until a promise is made for Disney to cut off all “campaign contributions?” The promise would have to be in the form of a contract or the usual will result.

6. Promote citizen initiatives for whatever. This approach can be powerful (http:breakthelink.org) but has the glaring problem that it eventually gets down to the ballot box . . . and that seems to be broken.

7. Civil disobedience. Exactly how? See two, above. Pretty clearly, some form of civil disobedience will be necessary to achieve success because Fascism is not going to go down without a fight — and Fascists are currently making the laws.

What else?

Please give this some serious thought, folks, It seems to me that we are now at the “fight, take flight, or bend over” part of our history — and of those options I much prefer the first, but as a practical matter I’m thinking seriously about the second. I am firmly convinced that the time to act is now or never, whatever we may decide. I also hope that you keep in mind the fact that if we keep waiting for the “perfect approach” to this problem (as many seem to be doing) we will never do anything.
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Take a stand
3,4, and 5 are what I believe to get the best results. Letters to your representatives and local news papers do influence Washington.
(Why do you think shrub is having a hard time selling his SSI scam)
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. All are good
Let me play devil's advocate here.

Numbers 2, 5, and 7, have the possibility of involving law enforcement, and we all saw how kind and gentle the cops down
in Miami were a few years ago, and even better the NYPD during
the Republican Convention.

What happens if after doing all of this, things continue on the course that they appear to be on?

If a Theocratic Facist state starts to become a reality, items 1-7
will have no effect.

My own views will remain mine, no telling who else might be here.



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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. I do not know what to do....
First, we have madmen in the Executive Branch, we have madmen in the Legislative, and perty soon, the courts will be stacked against us.

We literally only have 12 people in Congress - all in the House - that have proven their Democratic and humane principals. They did this by having a PERFECT score in voting on the issues brought to them. No one in the Senate has a perfect score.

How could our Senators vote for the $83 billion dollars for a proven illegal war and disgustingly contains the Real Id act? No, despite what you hope for, NO SENATOR is truly a Democrat.

With certain legislation already voted on and signed into law, i.e bankruptcy laws, etc, and when the courts get stacked against us, we literally will have no rights or freedom. Any lawsuit you may bring about for true justice, like a defective product that has maimed 100's of people, will be in favor of the corporation. Citizens will ALWAYS loose independent of the real truth.

Welcome to the Flat Earth Society.

So what to do? I am willing to fight for my country and DEFEND the ONLY Legitimate Document - our Constitution.

That said, I have already made my first call to the Canadian Immigration office.

I am not a quitter - but we have NO ONE on our side except 12 Rep and a whole bunch of citizens who cannot seem to rally as one to fight the terrorists who have taking over our country.

Got to hand it to the mother fuckers in office - they stole an entire nation right out from under EVERYONE.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Alas, SnoopDog --- I'm afraid I agree with everything you say
But what REALLY burns me, is that the people right here on this forum COULD change this tide, if they were willing to work real hard at it. So far, though, I haven't seen much evidence of any such willingness. I think this is because NOTHING in and of itself has any possibility of really working. Everything looks impossible when looked at closely, so nobody even tries. Which, of course, guarantees that we lose.

Canada is very nice in many ways, but it is too damn close to the US for my tastes. I was thinking of somewhere much more remote. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. This is a big decission for me.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I did think of one thing that might save us...
Our Constitution provides for (paraphrasing) 'what powers not directly stated here reverts to the States or the citizens'. Maybe we could rally every one of our 50 states to stop these madmen. It is worth a thought.

Also, I agree. Canada is too close to the USA but I feel it is an easy first step.

I will repeat myself - I am willing to fight to regain our democracy.

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Steel City Slim Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. Running Away Is NOT The Answer
The conservatives didn't take over our country by running away, and we won't take it back by running away.
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wtbymark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Let's Ponder
"Pretty clearly, some form of civil disobedience will be necessary to achieve success because Fascism is not going to go down without a fight — and Fascists are currently making the laws."

yes, civil disobedience will be necessary, which will be supressed, mild forms of violence will ensue until we have a Kent State incident, Then, (1)Maybe people will start to wake up to the fact that the country isn't theirs anymore, or (2)the rest of the populous will not wake up and it will be left up to people like us to forcably take back the government through revolution, or (3)people like us will have to quietly slip out of the country like many germans did during Hitler's rise and watch what's left of our society crumble from afar.

The later would be emotionally tough for me because I value my history. My mother is a DAR and a large part of my heritage moved here in 1722. So to watch this society crumble or join a foreign army against my own land would be heart wrenching.

-we are at war and our enemy is The Fellowship
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I have the history problem too
My Grandfather times whatever was a co-organizer of the Mayflower expedition (Robert Cushman). DAR for me too, and further back than that. I HATE to loose that and become an expatriot somewhere else.

But I also refuse to live in a Fascist country that tortures, murders, and generally acts in despicable ways --- all in my name. And also with my unwilling support since I pay taxes.
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Michael_Bush Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Every time I think America is going to wake up angry...
they hit the snooze button.

The act that I don't see listed here is to motivate everyone you know to NOT whine and bitch, to NOT write elected leaders, to NOT protest but to actually work to elect intelligent effective politicians at all levels.

I don't think there is anything more effective an individual can do than work on a campaign. Wesley Clark created a campaign in a matter of months that gave serious competition to candidates that had been working the caucuses for a year or more. Californians worked at phone banks and called so many people that we were going back over lists of fringe voters because we had called everyone else.

Regardless of what you think of Clark, that campaign was a grass roots effort that worked. Clark and his team were clearly not media savvy but it does show what people can do.

The work that volunteers do on campaigns is immensely valuable, worth far more than almost anyone could afford to donate.

Many here ARE dedicated Democrats who donate lots of time. Start dragging in your friends and families. However, California is SOL in many ways, we are an afterthought on National campaigns, a cash cow only. So, what can we do?

Start donating time to campaigns in other states, phone banking can be done anywhere. Host a party at a private residence that has good reception and use cell phones. A great no cost way to have fun on the weekends and yet have a powerful national effect.

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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. fighting now but preparing for flight
My husband and I are in the same place you are.

This last election, (which we believe was stolen)was really a wake-up call for us. I think you have pretty much covered the bases on possible citizen "political" actions. We are writing letters, whining and bitching, and are giving as much as we possibly can to organizations whose primary goal is to remove the current corrupt administration.

I am afraid though, that it might be too little too late.

We are also trying to get in a position to move in the event of a draft or in the event that dissent is no longer tolerated.

However, even if we are successful in protecting our political freedoms and restoring sanity and common sense to our government, the advent of peak oil will necessitate fundamental changes in our lifestyle. I do not believe that the "American dream" lifestyle is sustainable (or even desirable).

I also worry that it might be to late for even the most responsible government to implement policies that would ameliorate or avoid the dire consequences of our over collective over consumption and the destruction of our environment. We believe that choosing a more environmentally friendly lifestyle for ourselves is the best thing we can do. So...

We are planning to sell our house in the 'burbs next year, spend a year living in our RV and looking for a place to build a solar home (or to convert an existing home). I hope it can be done in this country.

by the way, here is a newbie to newbie welcome to DU. :hi:
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Im getting near the "take flight ' part
I dont want to.Thought I would grow old here but if it reached a certain point where it looks like peaceful means will not work then Im regretfully leaving.

If we were being invaded by a foreign country then I would stay and fight but we did this to ourselves."We" voted the bums in that did this to our country,re-elected their fascist in chief and refuse to listen to anything bad about him.

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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I find this so utterly sad
I can tell from your post that you and your husband are exactly the kind of people I would love as neighbors. Good people to share a country with. But now, I have to advise you to: "Go, get out of here if you can."

One thing to consider: back in 1969 I joined the Peace Corps and went to Botswana. This was after service in the Navy during Vietnam and after years of protesting that other war. At the time I did not intend to come back. I was in a group of 21 volunteers, and after training there were 15 of us left. After about two months in-country the universal feeling expressed by all was that "I feel like a huge weight has been taken off my back." Botswana was actually a civilized country. Of those 15 volunteers, three of us came back to the US, in my case to go on to graduate school. The others either stayed in Africa or found some other place outside of the US to settle down where, AFAIK they remain to this day.

I got trapped here. Graduate school wiped me out financially and left me in debt, and by that time my Mother was getting rather old . . . so I had to stay. Mom died two years ago after a long illness, and now I'm too old to legally immigrate anywhere.

My point is that the Peace Corps provides a means that many excellent Americans use to take flight, and there has never been a better time to make the move. If you are young, GO. This place is apparently going down.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. BillDoc, why do you say :too old to legally immigrate'?
I do not think there are age requirements for all countries of the world... Political asylum I think could always be the last ditch effort...
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Well, I'll be 62 in a couple of months . . .
And who wants an old fart that will just get sick and die in a few years.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. 62 is young my friend (I am 48). And it is obvious you are...
a good person and a veteran.

Any legitimate country would want you... (In my opinion)
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. Your list appears quite complete to me.
Coordinating those activities is the challenge. However, it does appear that our networking is getting much stronger and, I sincerely believe that it will continue to grow!!!
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. ORGANIZE, and win elections in 2006!
Edited on Fri May-20-05 02:04 PM by crispini
The Democratic party needs to grow at the grassroots. That means that we have to participate in our county and state parties. That means that we have to become precinct chairs and precinct captains. These are the people who do the hard work of knocking on doors, getting out the vote, getting involved with their local community organization, knowing the people in their community and talking to swing voters about what needs to be done.

An active engaged precinct organization can make a phenomenal difference even in a red precinct or a red county. and they are MUCH better at helping a campaign because they LIVE in the area, they are respected by their friends and neighbors and they can reach people in a way that volunteers brought in from outside can do.

I have repeatedly seen statistics from precincts that were worked in 2004 but not in 2000 and can attest to the fact that LOCAL ORGANIZATION helps us win elections.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Unfortunately, the bad guys count the votes - remember?
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You know, this gets posted a lot as a snappy rejoinder
whenever I advocate ORGANIZING, and to be perfectly honest, I'M SICK OF IT. People seem to use this as a defeatist rejoinder that goes, "Oh well, we don't count the votes anymore so there's nothing we can do so we may as well roll over and die."

Go ahead and roll over and die, then, but I'm not going to do it.

And, to tell you the truth, I don't believe that the "bad guys count the votes" is a globally true statement. For one thing, I KNOW my county elections administrator (DO YOU?) and he's not a bad guy at all. And there are, what, seven thousand county administrations all over this country. You cannot tell me that every single one of them is a corrupt asshat like Blackwell. In this last election, they may have very well made the difference, but if we get off our asses and WORK to make the margin high enough, and do our best to protect our vote LOCALLY, then you know, we might have a shot.

And I am SICK SICK SICK of the defeatist attitude that your post exemplifies. You wanna give up? That's fine, give up. I'm not.
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Michael_Bush Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Work does make a difference
Not only does it make a difference locally, it makes a difference nationally.

Phonebanks are important to all presidential campaigns. Wesley Clark created a campaign from scratch and gave campaigns that had been there a year a real run for their money. He didn't do it by outspending them, he did it by enlisting volunteers from all over to run phone banks and it made a huge difference.

You don't like black box voting? Then get off your ass and help and out of state campaign. Cell phones make great phone banks, host a party to help support an out of state candidate who vows to get rid of the blasted things.

But don't sit there and whine about it, DO something.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Right on!
And welcome to DU! :hi:
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Sorry my dear... You are right....
I know you are correct. We have lost three elections - 2000, 2002, and 2004 due to election fraud. We do need to fight these bastards. Tell me what to do as no one is telling us what to do...

And, just for the record, I am not a defeatist... I will fight for our democracy till my last breath. But, I think there is a saying that states something like "quit this war so that we can wage a battle later".

By the way, what are you doing to fight these bastards? What you do - I will try to do the same.

The only thing I have done as an individual, is 1) post here, 2) write letters to the editor of which I have been published 3 times, 3) write to a bunch of senators and congressmen, 4) try and succeed to state democratic opinion with complete strangers to educate them, 5) volunteer at my county democratic party, and 6) think think of ways to win our country back.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Sorry to snap atcha, I just hear that a lot
and it gets old. :) I'm glad you're not a defeatist. It sounds like you are doing a lot! I think you are working hard and doing a lot of the right things.

You asked, so here is what I'm doing.

1) I'm a local precinct chair for my county party. This means I am building a group of Democratic volunteers in my precinct that will help next year in the election. Since it is not an election year we are doing more fun things, for example we meet every other month for coffee or a potluck dinner at someone's house. When we get together we discuss people in the neighborhood, who might like to join us and work, who is a democrat, who is a republican, and so on. We individually do things in our neighborhood like attend homeowner's association, PTAs and so on, so that we can build a good network in our immediate community. Then in 2006 I will have a "hard core" of devoted Democrats who will be ready to knock on doors and phonebank for our candidates and do an effective get out the vote. That way the candidate does not have to organize an effort in our precinct because we will take care of it for them. We can also work for ALL candidates, county, state and national, rather than just being for "the X campaign" and only telling people about one campaign we can talk about all the Democrats.

In 2004, one precinct chair I know in a red precinct raised his democratic percentage from one in five voters voting Democrat to one in three. Another precinct chair in a blue precinct got her voter turnout up from 50% to 70%. This is my first year as a precinct chair so I don't know how I will do but I hope I can do well.

Other stuff:

2) I'm helping build training for other precinct chairs. I have been a trainer so even though I'm new at this I can help people organize the material and so on.

3) As far as the electronic voting goes, I didn't do much with that other than keep an eye on the issue and call people when the bill was up. There is a really great group of evoting activists in our state and I was able to keep in touch with them and send in emails and call when they told me to.

Really the precinct chair stuff takes up most of my organizing energy, especially since I have used it as a reason to get involved with other community organizations like my homeowner's association and so on, so that I can network with other people in my precinct.

I'm not saying everybody should go out and be a precinct chair but you can be a precinct captain (who helps with the work) and try to do a little bit of the local organization. The Dem party at least in my area really needs local organizers as many of these positions are EMPTY -- which is awful, because it means that individual campaigns have to try to cover all of these empty areas....

Anyway, that's just my ten cents! :)
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Thanks for your reply... I know you are a Patriot -
I always read your posts when I come across them...

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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Aww.. Thanks
Here's to you! :toast:
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. I certainly admire your spirit, but
I HAVE been working, working full time for the last six months at least and I have to stop that or stop eating.

I had the idea that a web site dedicated to promoting citizen's initiatives against political bribery might catch on. The idea being that bribery is the root cause of many, if not all in one way or another, of our national problems. And exactly because it is bribery, it is vulnerable. The web site has been up for months now (see the sig below) and although I have posted here at DU many times, even making the "greatest" page once (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3659846) the 24 hours following that post brought less than 50 people to the page to check it out. In total, as of a few minutes ago, 5632 people have visited this page . . . and 30 have volunteered to help. Of those volunteers, only two of us have collected any signatures.

I put a couple of thousand dollars of my own cash into that project, plus the time to first learn how to program a web page with a database and then to do it. All to no avail. Needless to say, I'm very discouraged!

I also put up another site called electionfraudbounty.org where I asked people to pledge toward a bounty fund to flush out people who had engaged in election fraud. To date 1957 people have visited that page, and pledged a total of $6,249. It costs nothing to make such a pledge, and ten or twenty bucks to put someone behind bars for election fraud doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to ask. Yet, very few will bother.

Why? So very few people seem willing to commit to anything and work it. That is why I made this post this morning, and I pose it as a challenge: If someone has a better idea, please share it! Otherwise please tell me why so very little is actually being done! I am right on the edge of giving up on this country. In fact, at this moment I have given up.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. First of all, I don't want to disparage your efforts,
Edited on Fri May-20-05 03:13 PM by crispini
which I think are wonderful and praiseworthy, but I think that we on DU over-rate the impact of the internet. The internet has a lot of impact on US, so we think that it has a lot of impact on MOST people. I don't believe that's correct. I believe that MOST people are far more impacted and influenenced by their friends, neighbors, family, and coworkers.

I also think that we on DU have an unfortunate tendency to focus on big, national efforts (because national politics is interesting) and neglect our hometowns, neighborhoods, and states.

Here is my (what I think is) a better idea:

Stop trying to focus on the web and take your battle to your local county party. First, join your county party so they will have $$$ to support local candidates. Second, if you can, become a precinct organizer. Have a coffee in your home with the people in your immediate neighborhood and talk about ways you could get your neighbors more involved, or at the very least, get them out to vote. Think small, and think one bite at a time. What is the Democratic Percentage Index in your precinct? My precinct is 45% Democrat. In 2006, I would like to make that 55% Democrat. That is a difference of about 100 votes. I am putting myself in charge of getting those 100 votes for the Democratic party. That's all I need to do, and that's enough.

If I can make my precinct a majority Democratic precinct in 2006, guess who will be the election judge at my polling place in 2008? ME. I will be IN CHARGE OF MY POLLING PLACE. Guess who will nail them if there is any hanky panky? ME.

We need to think about this one vote at a time and one precinct at a time. Instead of trying to start something new, why not work with what you have -- the Democratic party. They are DYING for precinct chairs in most places. Also, in my opinion, these local connections are MUCH more influential on individuals than putting up a website. People are MUCH more willing to help you out if they KNOW you and have had coffee at your home or if you have spent time on their couch watching Fahrenheit 911 or something.

Long story short: Think globally, act locally.


edited to add: I just noticed your post count. WOW! Welcome to DU. :yourock: for some reason your post made me think you were an oldtimer. What a great post, I think when I was under 100 posts I was still posting timid little "I agree" and stuff like that.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Actually, the DEC was the first thing I tried.
I'm in Escambia County Florida (Pensacola) the home of Joe Scarborough and Jeff Miller. This is as "Red" as it gets. Sad to say, I think that our DEC has been infiltrated by Repugs, because it is amazingly disfunctional. When a member (I resigned when Kerry got nominated, I refuse to support ANYONE who supports this damn war) I tried hard to turn things around, all to no avail. Let me post a portion of the notes from a recent meeting taken by a member of the steering committee (I'm still on the mailing list, for some reason) and I think you will see what I mean.

"At the end of the meeting, the Chair tried to intimidate the Secretary and the Chair pushed the Secretary into Ms. B.... or Mrs. R.... when the Secretary, after waiting for 4-5 minutes while talking to the chair, was trying to leave. While the Chair was using intimidation and forcefully blocking the Secretary from leaving, the Chair stated that he would call the Sheriff on the Secretary. The Secretary told him to call the cops, asked Mrs. M.... if she had her cell phone, that the Chair wanted to call the sheriff on him; the Secretary then asked Mr. H.... to stay to witness the Chair's behavior. Then the Secretary was pushed into the senior member behind him by the Chair trying to block the Secretary from leaving. The Secretary had to ask Mr. R.... to stay to witness the Chair calling the Sheriff and then ask Mr. R.... and other members to put some distance between the Chair and the Secretary to walk outside."

Many members have complained to the State Democratic organization about such things, for years, and nothing ever happens to change it. I tried to get local people interested in joining the DEC on the theory that enough of us could throw the bums out and start over . . . but I couldn't get enough people to do it. Actually, I only got three to join me, and it would only take about 20 to turn the whole thing around. I tried for over a year.

Sorry to still be whining, this whole thing has been a wrenching experience for me.


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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Wow, that sounds like MY county party. Ha ha!
Edited on Fri May-20-05 03:56 PM by crispini
I think MOST county party organizations are somewhat dysfunctional. Our county party chair was a rotten organizer. Get this, she actually ENDORSED A REPUBLICAN ON COUNTY PARTY STATIONARY last year. She said that she was moving her offices and forgot. This was a Federal judicial nominee for an appellate bench and it actually got PUT INTO THE CONGRESSIONAL RECORD as a Dallas County DEMOCRATIC PARTY endorsement of a Republican.

Needless to say this pissed a lot of people off.

A few months ago we made the editorial page of the Dallas Morning with this (somewhat biased) little account of one of our executive committee meetings.

And these bozos expect people to vote for them?

Count on the party of Andrew Jackson, LBJ and Bill Clinton to eat its young. Just when Dallas County Democrats should be figuring out how to advance the major gains they racked up in November – the sheriff's office and three judgeships – they've contrived to implode. A party meeting this week ended when security guards broke up what was fast becoming an out-and-out brawl. Sheriff Lupe Valdez felt the need to call the county chairwoman, Susan Hays, from outside the meeting and tell her it wasn't safe for her to leave. This is madness. For the sake of democracy (with a small "d"), stop it.


Anyway. I was at that meeting, and while Susan was never in danger of her life, it did in fact get pretty hot. And you're right, the state party doesn't have much impact on local county parties as far as I can see.

However, our story has a happy ending, as the precinct chairs were able to call a meeting (via petition) and at the meeting, force through a couple of resolutions appointing an oversight board which will work with the county chair. Susan didn't want to deal with it, so she resigned.

It was, quite possibly, the most thrilling experience in my admittedly short political voluteering experience, because to me, it was democracy in action. The precinct chairs ORGANIZED and they WON!

Anyway, I'm sorry you had that experience. Seems to me something else is going on there, though -- we were able to get rid of ours in about 10 months worth of work. How did you go about getting people to join you? What makes you think that it's been "infiltrated" .... (Not that I'm saying you're wrong, just wondering what you base your opinion on?) Do you have a lot of old-guard, or did the last election bring some new blood into the party?
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. It's mostly "old guard"
But I think it has been infiltrated. Every time someone would come up with some idea that could help, people would find some way to screw it up. These people couldn't do ANYTHING but squabble among themselves. Even some of the serious "old guard" have now given up. There was one guy with about 40 years of experience on the DEC, and he has now quit and regrets ever having anything to do with it. I just find it hard to believe that any group could be so seriously disfunctional without some direction.

The part that really got me, though, was all the people I knew with some standing in the county, lawyers and such, who are Democrats . . . but wouldn't do anything. They wouldn't even attend a meeting. It's exactly this apathy that will finish us off.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Wow, that's annoying.
Edited on Fri May-20-05 04:33 PM by crispini
Um... move?

Sorry, kidding.

How about DFA? Our local DFA meetup really has some of the best and brightest, and has been able to do some very impressive things, like organize a candidates forum for our city council races, and they are also putting on a "Summer Speakers" series with some really big names (surprising for such a fairly new group, but we're doing it!)

Your experience does bring one thing home to me, though. As an activist, there is no more powerful drug than SUCCESS. I mean, we won four judicial races in our county, and John Kerry got a GREATER percentage of the vote than GWB in our city, and we elected a lesbian Latina Democratic sherriff, and then we got rid of our recalcitrant county party chair and even though we live in the heart of a red red state, there are a lot of busy happy Democratic activists here.

You need a "win." Try thinking of something small you can do to restore your spirits. How about just a potluck with some of your Democratic friends or something? How about some of those people with standing -- can you recruit just one of them to run for office, or run yourself?

Also, now, I don't know you from Adam, ok, so this next part is just gently meant as food for thought:

Is there something that YOU are doing that is causing you to fail? (You sound like you've tried a LOT of different things, is why I ask, I mean it sounds like it's not for lack of EFFORT.) You could try using your activism as an opportunity for growth and self reflection. As a Buddhist, it's a hard-wired tenet of my faith (The oneness of life and the environment) that if I'm repeatedly failing at something, I need to do some self-examination and find out what I'm doing wrong, and it's incumbent on ME to change it. Remember, when you point the finger at somebody else, there are four fingers pointing back at YOU. Is there something in your leadership style that turns people off? Are you taking on too much and then not following up? Are you spending enough time on the people skills? I know one guy (I won't say from where) that thinks he's a leader. But he's just an arrogant asshat, because he doesn't listen to anyone and he thinks he can order people around and be nosy even though he's not any "higher up" than the people who he tries to boss.

A leader is best when people barely know that he exists.
Less good when they obey and acclaim him.
Worse when they fear and despise him.
Fail to honor people, and they fail to honor you.
But of a good leader, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled,
they will say, "We did this ourselves."
-- Lao-Tzu


Anyway, peace, I don't know you or anything so please don't take that as an attack, it's just a quiet suggestion.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I'm sure you are definitely right
about the leadership style thing . . . and I appreciate the thought.

I actually DO NOT want to be a leader, and that may be part, or all, of the problem. I would much prefer to just go back to quietly living my life. So, I have made no real attempt at "leadership" and have, in fact, ignored that aspect as much as possible. I had hoped, rather, in the case of the breakthelink thing that the ideas presented would speak for themselves, or perhaps someone who DOES have leadership skills would step forward and exploit the ideas and the site. That's why I set it up so each state has its own area on the forum and in the database. You're in Texas, for example, and you could go to my webpage, face the East (or whatever) and say to the rising sun that you will take over the leadership of this endeavor in Texas ... and just do it. Anybody in any state could do this! I would happily provide the web site and just stay out of the way except to provide tech support. Anyway, that was my idea. It didn't work. A few people may have tried to get something together, but apparently gave up.

And to be completely honest, I included several essays on the web site that some may find offensive. For example, one called "A Nation of Kitty Genovese's Neighbors," which is not exactly the sort of thing your usual "patriotic American" wants to read. I was trying for a "wake up call" with that one --- but it obviously didn't work. I imagine that some of my posts here have offended many as well. I DON'T feel that I have to shut-up and keep my opinions to myself, just so I don't offend anyone and they will, therefore, help out trying to save the country from Fascism. It's their country too, after all. And having opinionated nut-cases like me around freely yelling about this or that is exactly what the country is supposed to be about.

Ah, well. I think that it IS time to give it up and look to my own future.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Can you find someone cool to follow?
Edited on Fri May-20-05 05:28 PM by crispini
If you don't like leading? That's the only thing I've got left to suggest. :P

As far as why the website didn't take off, well, that I kind of know the answer to. Good ideas are a dime a dozen. People who are willing to get behind an idea and push and scratch and beat their head on the wall and work and work and work to make it happen -- well, they're much rarer.

The way I cope with that is I pick one thing to work on. One thing. Precinct leadership, and precinct training (two! two things! ha ha ha.) Anyway. There are a zillion things I *could* do-- I could pick up your idea, I could be a Dallas organizer for the Chris Bell campaign (I got asked to do that a few weeks ago) or for the David Van Os campaign (I got asked to that a few months ago), or on and on and on. There are always too damn many good ideas out there, and too many worthy causes, and not enough time to do them all.

I have had to make a sort of psychological adjustment. I have chosen two things and I'm working on them. Everything else gets said NO to. In fact, there are a lot of aspects of national politics that I quite frankly just IGNORE -- because I don't have the psychic energy to get upset over them. I only have so many hours in the day, so much time to get things done (I have a full-time job too), and I picked one medium size local thing to do which I feel like will make a difference.

Why don't you try doing something similar? Instead of trying to solve the ENTIRE problem-- start small. Try to fix one small thing. You're obviously good at technology, could you offer those technolgy skills to a campaign or something? Local and state candidates will be needing websites soon!

But, hey, you know, if you need a break, take a break. You can't do everything all the time. I certainly spend time working on the house and hanging out with the famiily. :7 You do what you can with what you have, and that's what you can do! :D
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Steel City Slim Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
45. You Are So Right
It's a quitters response.
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
51. Amen
I've wanted to say this at least a dozen times, but I refrained because I'm sympathetic to the idea that their should be a auditable paper trail for all votes. I agree with the need for reform, but this has become just a knee jerk response to any elections related post and it's annoying. You know that SNL character Debbie Downer? You can always count on a "Debbie Diebold" to chime in on any elections or organizing related post with "it doesn't matter as long as Diebold is counting the votes." Well I'm sorry, but yes, yes it does fucking matter.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
21. Run for office locally
One of the major avenues the fundy fascists have for taking over is by getting on school boards and city/county counsels. Once they build a majority, they can wield a surprising amount of power -- inviting Wal-Marts to run out the small businesses, forcing local schools to stop teaching about birth control or evolution, selling off public parkland to developers, annexing "underperforming" (read: minority) neighborhoods with eminent domain. Sometimes, they run uncontested for these low-profile positions. Make them work for it! If there aren't any viable opposition candidates to support, run for it yourself.

It can be done.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. You are RIGHT.
And if Dallas County can elect an openly lesbian Latina sheriff, anything can happen. :7
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Now that is a VERY good idea
Take a page from the Repugs planbook, it obviously works!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
36. On Civil Disobedience .....
"Exactly how," indeed. What would you see as the steps involved? There have been a few people on DU who have advocated civil disobedience as a needed tactic in confronting the current administration's policies. Yet when I've asked what steps are required before a protest march (for example) can mature into civil disobedience (rather than a riot), there has been little grasp of what leaders like Gandhi and King demanded of themselves and others involved. Thus, I respectfully ask "exactly how"? I am hopeful, as I read your well-organized OP, that you might have given this some thought.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Actually, I have given this a great deal of thought
Sorry to be so late responding, but my wife and I go camping most weekends when it's nice . . . we both need the trees to wind down from the week and we have a very nice spot to go to . . . and I just got back.

Anyway, Civil Disobedience.

First let me point out that the direct confrontation sort of civil disobedience advocated by some, like lying down in front of important buildings and blocking them, or simply clogging up some street with a bunch of bodies and no “permit” — cannot work any more. If it is tried, a bunch of people will get their skulls cracked and then be arrested, the corporate media will then either not carry the fact of the demonstration at all or will distort the event all out of proportion to suit their own ends --- and then after an immense effort and sacrifice on the part of a bunch of people . . . the whole thing will fizzle out to nothing. This is because for the most part the mass media are, to put it simply, our enemies. They are owned by the same corporations that are exploiting the war for profit and are generally looting our society. The corporate mass media has near complete control of the means to direct public opinion in any direction they chose. The technology they have to advance this end is awesome. I say this from the perspective of a guy who once got a MA degree in Social Psychology. The reason marketing types make such big bucks is because the return they inevitably bring back for their clients is immense. Would you have believed you could sell rocks as pets? Some marketing guy did, and made a bundle doing just that. The last I heard some 70% of Americans STILL thought that Saddam and Osama loved and aided each other, and etc. All because of corporate marketing of their larger agenda.

All of which sounds very daunting. But there is a weak point that can be exploited, and the clue can be found in Frank’s book “What’s the Matter With Kansas.” (At least I think that’s the title, its been a while since I read it.) In this book Frank points out that the citizens of Kansas consistently vote against their best interests, because they think it’s the moral thing to do. In other words, morality trumps self-interest for a great number of people — and personally I think that this is a rather good thing. If the people of Kansas actually learn how they have been manipulated by the GOP with a horrid pack of lies, and downright evil behavior, there could be a backlash that will make the French revolution look like a Sunday School picnic. Screwing with Fundies is dangerous business for that very reason, a fact that the Repugs don’t seem to have learned. Yet.

With that as background, consider the impact upon a basically moral person from Kansas if he is exposed to something like this:

In the early part of the last century Henry Ford got into trouble by trying to be a nice guy. He wanted to use corporate profits that he viewed as excessive to raise worker salaries and reduce the price of his company’s automobiles. His stockholders objected, however, and took him to court (Dodge v. Ford, 1919). They wanted that money for themselves. The judge ruled that the whole purpose of business is to maximize shareholder wealth, and if Ford “wanted to pursue a (charitable end) he should do it with his own money, not with other people’s.”

The principle forged into law by Dodge v. Ford continues today to force corporate management to maximize stockholder profits. The law has been modified slightly since 1980 to allow for a slightly more “social” flavor, but the “fiduciary responsibility” of corporate management this principle established remains firmly directed towards maximal profits for the stockholders. CEOs are therefore required to have a clear and “reasonable expectation of profit” when they spend stockholder money.

The requirement that a “reasonable expectation of profit” be present applies to corporate political campaign contributions just like any other expenditure. In 2002 contributions to politicians exceeded $1.2 billion dollars. Some examples will illustrate the practical effect of this money.

In 2002 over $95 million was contributed by the health care industry to our politicians. Where was the “reasonable expectation of profit” that the health care industry was investing in to come from? Politicians have nothing but their legislation to offer in return for this money, and common sense tells us that promoting legislation that would reduce profits — wasn’t really the idea. Indeed, any politician receiving a portion of the health care industry’s $95 million giveaway could be expected to irritate his “benefactors” mightily if his legislation were to, say, actually reduce health care costs — and thus industry profits. Common sense also tells us that any such congressman would be immediately “cut off” from his health care corporate largess, and would last about as long in his job as any faint hint of real morality currently does in congress.

Other examples of the influence of corporate “political contributions” on legislation abound. The cumulative cost of this practice to the public is immense, but we pay the price of this practice with far more than mere money.

The FDA has tried repeatedly to ban the use of antibiotics to fatten meat animals, but has been overruled by congress each time. It is well established that antibiotics used in animal feed have two primary effects: they cause meat animals to fatten more with less food, and they breed antibiotic resistant bacteria. The pharmaceutical industry sells 70% of its antibiotics for meat production, and gives a pile of money to congress each year to protect that market. Protect it primarily from the FDA, which has been trying to protect us from exactly this sort of practice. People die because of antibiotic resistant bacteria. And the patents on the antibiotics used to fatten meat animals run out at about the same time feeding these antibiotics to animals renders them useless — thus making newer, more costly, and more esoteric antibiotics necessary. And also necessitating new patents and much higher profits for the pharmaceutical industry.

The members of the Florida Break The Link PAC think that the corporate practice of making large contributions to politicians has a more accurate name than “campaign contribution.” We think it is more accurate to call this practice bribery — bribery to prevent legislation that interferes with corporate profits, bribery to create legal monopolies that allow the “donating” corporation to charge unfair prices, bribery to purchase exclusive tax breaks, and bribery to extract direct largess from the public treasury.

Our large corporate political contributors most definitely influence our politicians with their money; our politicians cannot possibly be elected without this massive largess under our current system.


(The rest of this pamphlet can be found at http://breakthelink.org/FlFlyer.pdf)

Quite a few would not be able to understand it, but quite a few would . . . and of those a few might be able to put it together and figure out that they have been seriously had by the “powers that be.”

Now, anyone who is pressing for legislation against bribery occupies the moral high ground. Period. There is no way that a politician can come out in favor of bribery, and there is no way that the issue can be distorted to such a point that even a dumb Kansas Fundie can’t see the problem. In other words, it is an issue with legs when presented simply as an effort against bribery.

Currently EVERY STATE HAS LEGALIZED BRIBERY by one means or another. For example, in Florida we have absolutely Draconian laws against bribery, but they are inherently limited to the sort of bribery where you show up at your representatives office with a big sack of cash and ask for favorable legislation. And even this sort of bribery would have to be prosecuted based upon “common law” definitions, because the statutes in Florida concerning this issue, statutes 838.015 Bribery and 838.016 Unlawful compensation or reward for official behavior. specifically contain NO definition for bribery at all, even though the entire Chapter 838 is entitled "BRIBERY; MISUSE OF PUBLIC OFFICE." This rather obvious omission leaves anything that can in any way be construed as "something else" as an open loophole through which entire legislative bodies may collectively leap while holding hands and sanctimoniously pointing to "their draconian laws against bribery." Here is a link to the Florida statutes so you can check it out yourself. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0838/SEC014.HTM&Title=-%3E2004-%3ECh0838-%3ESection%20014#0838.014 If you aren't from Florida don't get too smug before you take a look and see how YOUR State has done something similar - - - because you can be sure that they have!

And this is where the civil disobedience comes in. In Florida we have cobbled up an amendment to the Florida constitution against bribery (http://breakthelink.org/FlSigs.pdf) that has real teeth. It contains a definition that can be applied to corporate campaign contributions, for example, and would thus eliminate them if enforced. There is no way that our government can allow such an amendment to get on the ballot unless they are sure it won’t pass . . . because if it gets on the ballot, who is going to vote against it? How can any politician argue that HE has the moral high ground and at the same time argue AGAINST this amendment?

He who commands the moral high ground, wins, and the Repugs exploit this fact all the time. So they will place other obstacles in the path, which must be overcome in any way they can.

Twenty six states do not have formal initiative procedures, but there is no reason at all that the citizens of those states could not circulate the same amendment we are using in Florida, with the state name and a few other details changed. This might be civil disobedience, or might not. It would probably be construed as “illegal” in Kansas and those other states just to try and stop it. But it will again be very difficult to break heads and arrest people who are pushing this kind of thing without calling attention to it, and that is the last thing they will want to do. It’s that moral high ground thing, again. And after a half-million people sign the petition in Kansas (which I think is quite conceivable) and present these documents to the Kansas Legislature - - - then that legislature is between that proverbial rock and hard spot. If they bitch that it is illegal, they look like they are in favor of bribery (which, of course, they very much are) and those morally inclined Kansans will jump down their throats.

All of which fantasy depends on a bunch of people getting out and working the problem . . . which I have seen no evidence of happening. I have tried everything I can think of, and nothing seems to get any action. All of which frustrates the hell out of me, because I think this crazy idea could work.

Damn! This got long, didn’t it. Sorry about that.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Everyone should take the time
to go out into nature and spend time relaxing. I count myself lucky, as I live in an isolated spot; my driveway was once part of a Revolutionary War era turnpike, and I am surrounded by open fields, woods, and a beautiful creek and waterfalls. It makes it easier to sit and commune with my copy of Thoreau's "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience," and a heck of a lot harder to venture into "civilization."

I enjoyed your response. I will add a few thoughts, and see what you might make of them. I was thinking more in terms of what Gandhi and King speak of as the steps needed to be taken before civil disobedience should be actively taken up as a tactic. Hopefully, the majority of democrats and people on the left will recognize that we are faced with circumstances that place us in a crisis. And the system of government that is being imposed by corporations is not entirely responsive to people's needs, to say the least. In fact, it is devouring a generation in Iraq, and the few elected representatives who oppose the war seem impotent in the face of the Bush war policy.

Civil disobedience can be used for a couple of things. The first and most familiar is to protest an unjust law. We think of the brave young blacks going to segregated lunch counters, and being jailed. Or, it can be used to protest unjust national policies. In this case, we may think of the Berrigan Brothers and the Plowshares folks.

Before Gandhi, King, or the Berrigans undertook a campaign involving civil disobedience, they did have a process that we might compare to a boxer's preparation for a championship fight. And while it might seem to be the direct opposite from a prize fighter, it actually involves many of the same disciplines, including the preparation to endure physical pain.

You are correct in noting that an appreciation of the use of the media is important. Both Gandhi and King understood that while they would be crucified by the media early in a campaign, that by accepting suffering they would transform the coverage, among other things.

And again, you are correct that an unplanned campaign would be foolish and dangerous; both Gandhi and King could be accused, at times, of being one or the other, but never both.

Gandhi also understood the proper use of the public fast. It verges on civil disobedience, and as Bobby Sands & co. showed, can be done while incarcerated as well as from more comfortable settings. I tend to think that the fast could be the most appropriate way to begin the transformation of the nation's collective conscience. It might require a dozen people who are prepared to go on a hunger strike in a public area, though not involving the breaking of any laws. I am not abled to think of a better start. But perhaps I spend too much time in the woods.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Too much time in the woods? Impossible!
It sounds to me like you have an idyllic situation there. I only get to go to our "farm" on weekends.

It looks to me like we both have the same heros, and I especially favor Dr. King. I quote him on my website: "History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people." (http://breakthelink.org/The%20reason%20why.php)

And I think that you are absolutely correct that a hunger strike with a dozen or so people protesting our Fascism (or whatever) would speak volumes to our countrymen. If they knew about it. Not too many years ago a dedicated gentleman committed suicide by self-immolation to protest NAFTA, and it barely made the news. To be effective, a media campaign like the smokescreen that was Terri Schiavo would have to be implemented — and that is plainly impossible. So, instead of getting their heads broken the incredibly dedicated participants of such a demonstration would merely starve themselves to death in obscurity and to no avail.

Any such tactic needs to account carefully for a hostile media, because that is what we must deal with. Ghandi and King had hostile media to be sure, but these media were not as sophisticated as our own and inadvertently gave them exactly the press they wanted by bad-mouthing them. They were, after all, “newsworthy.” Our own media will not make that rather stupid mistake. They will simply decide that some “runaway bride” is much more newsworthy.

Getting back to the issue of civil disobedience, I find that I completely overlooked the big issue where civil disobedience will be absolutely necessary if we are to have any success: elections.

Very few readers here need to be convinced that the last three national elections were rigged. (If you do need to see some evidence in support of this statement, go to http://electionfraudbounty.org/Evidence.php) Both the Repugs and the Dems gain by this phenomenon — if they are willing to play the Fascist game and are therefore “in.” And apparently way too many Dems are willing, as clearly demonstrated by their votes — not their rhetoric.

The opportunity exists for citizens such as us to turn this around. In a nutshell, we could develop a simple computer program that will generate a paper ballot for a voter and meet all the HAVA requirements. This program could be comprised entirely of free, open source, software and could run on one of the free operating systems (FreeDOS, Linux). It could be implemented on free (old and obsolete) PCs, thus saving all counties trying to meet HAVA requirements millions of dollars. Because such as system is nothing more than a glorified pencil, no certification should apply or be required. It ONLY produces a paper ballot, which the voter can then verify and drop in a ballot box.

ALL such ballots should then be counted by humans, and by this simple act all the trickery and poor programming and other “excuses” dreamed up by Diebold and others for their crooked machines — are simply bypassed. (See: http://electionfraudbounty.org/Two%20simple%20election%20plans.php for more on this.)

Our corrupt politicians will not like this sort of thing at all, which is where the civil disobedience comes in. Citizens in every precinct could very carefully hold “shadow” elections using the techniques and procedures briefly outlined above and more clearly described in the paper cited, documenting everything, and when the results are wildly discrepant — initiate court action. Again, this is a form of “in your face” civil disobedience that also holds the moral high ground. It is the sort of thing that COULD be done, and if it were it shows every promise of being successful. The problem remains, however, as Dr. King so eloquently points out:

"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."

and I would amend to say: “the appalling silence and inactivity of the good people.”
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
40. The nature of the dialog must change
for a paradigm shift to occur. When political dialog dissolves into meaningless bickering and posturing, progressive ideas are lost in the noise.

Somehow, integrity of political exchange must be engendered for a mature and productive political dialog to occur.

In other words...it's time to grow up.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I agree totally, Zorbuddha, I just hope that there is time.
As you can see from the listing above, and including 0rganism'm idea of running for office, we don't have a lot going for us. We DO have the moral high ground, but we are probably the only ones who recognize that fact.

There is an old sailor's adage that I like that goes like this:

"If you wait until the boat is entirely ready, you will never leave port."

Our boat crew can't seem to even get the sails properly stowed. One faction wants to just stuff them in their bags to prevent stress from fold-creases, and the other insists on folding them because that is "the neat and proper thing to do." Both are adamant in support of their positions. Both are quite willing to take pot-shots at the other and fight to the death to support their position.

We are children trying to combat dedicated and organized evil.
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Zorbuddha Donating Member (822 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Good point.
Edited on Sun May-22-05 02:03 PM by Zorbuddha
There is the ominous possibility that it is too late. Time enough to stow the gear in proper folds once underway. Weigh anchor, set sail, damn the torpedoes.
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Steel City Slim Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
43. Stand Up And Fight
Too many whine and talk about running away. The only way we can take our country back is to fight for it. Items 2 through 7 are all good.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Sounds great in principle --- how?
Take a look at the list above. Lots of good ideas, right? All it takes is for a bunch of people to actually DO THEM, and that is where we fail.

Remember Dr. King's famous quote: "History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."

Appalling silence and apathy, actually.

Repugs are disciplined, and they win for no other reason than that discipline. Dems are like wild tribesmen who all want to fight independently, and Caesar sure did teach them a lesson, didn't he.

So, how do you plan to get all these wild Dems working together? If we had someone with a strong personality, and lots of prestige willing to kick a little Democratic ass and force it. . . maybe. But then, that isn’t the liberal, democratic way is it.

Sorry to be so down, but there comes a time when it is simply smarter to step out of the path of the on-coming train. I'm sorry to rub everyone's nose in this, but if we won't face this little reality there truly is no hope. It is simply too late.

Now, having delivered that cheery message --- someone prove me wrong. Figure out the organizing principle that can get us all working in the right direction.

Please?
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Steel City Slim Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. You Answered Your Own Question
You can sit there in APPALLING SILENCE, or you can get up and go DO something. You can whine about how bad it is, or you can start changing things. You can cry about how disorganized we are, or you can start making a difference. If you are going to wait for somebody to organize something, not much is going to get done. If you want something to happen, you have to go out and make it happen. It takes work. So roll up your sleeves, pick a course of action and go to work. You might be all by yourself the first day, the second day, the third and so on. But eventually people will see what you are doing and join you.
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BillyDoc Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Nope, I'm afraid they won't join.
Check out my two websites: http://breakthelink.org and http://electionfraudbounty.org

The first was, perhaps, a little too ambitious, it proposed pushing citizen's initiatives against bribery in order to cut off corporate campaign contributions. I have beggged and pleaded and done everything I can think of to get people to join me in this effort. A description I wrote up on DU (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3659846) was even voted onto the "Greatest" page . . . but less than 50 people actually went to the page and looked at it. Two people did volunteer, but NOBODY has taken the initiative to actually collect signatures. NOBODY. And this after many complimentary comments.

The second was to gather together a bounty to be paid out for convictions related to election fraud. These were PLEDGES where you only pay your portion of a bounty if a conviction is obtained. Pretty easy, wouldn't you say? Go check out the result after more months than I care to think about.

So you see, Steel City Slim, I have definitely NOT been sitting on my ass in appalling silence, nor have I been whining, nor do your kind words suggest any concrete action that I see having any result at all. What I AM trying to do here is to call attention to what I perceive as a very real and serious problem. Namely, we are all running around like a bunch of children and NOT GETTING ANYTHING DONE. I have listed the possibilities in my original post to call attention to this problem, and I think it is very plain that to continue as we have been doing is fruitless.

In short, we will get our act together and make something concrete happen collectively, or we will continue to battle as a bunch of individuals --- and most definitely lose.

Now, having got that little bit of (gasp!) whining off my chest, I think that a productive discussion might well be to address two issues: What can we get together on to do that has some reasonable expectation of success, and most importantly --- how can we marshal the people power we actually do have at our disposal to actually do it. So I have a challenge for you. Please answer this question first: “What can we do in concrete operational terms, assuming we all agree to do it?” And then, “How do we get our members and others to join in and work their ass off to focus on this project, whatever it is, and do it?” And please, not the "We've gotta get organized" stuff again. The question is: organized to do what? Specifically? How will it work? That kind of thing.

I am very much afraid that my own experience has been that we WILL NOT get together on a cohesive project, and even if we give one lip service we WILL NOT carry it through.

PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!
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Steel City Slim Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Three Things
I've never said get organized, what I said is to quit complaining and go do something. What I do is write letters, discuss points, speak out, protest. If you think the best course of action is to gather a large group of people together and talk and discuss and debate what to do in concrete operation terms, then talk, and discuss and debate how to motivate people to work toward those goals, then that is what you should be doing. But don't wait for someone else to do it for you, do it your self, start NOW. See if you can get in touch with some other Panhandle Area DUers and get started. As for me, I'm too busy actually doing things to talk and discuss and debate about doing things, but if you ever come up with a plan, let me know what it is.

In re-reading through this thread I have noticed that often your replies to positive posts are negative, and your replies to negative posts reinforce that negativity. Why is that? Your initial post to start this thread was intelligent and thought provoking, but your subsequent posts seem to be designed to sabotage any positive results. I don't get it.

Personally I wish all of you who are talking about quitting and running away to some other country would quit talking about it and do it. The conservatives didn't take our country over by running away and we won't take it back by running away. All you are is a negative drain.
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thecai Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
47. We're With You, BillyDoc and SnoopDog...
Edited on Sun May-22-05 03:12 PM by thecai
...The entire C A I - Coalition Against Injustice.
Great posts and welcome to DU!
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