Feel Bad for Saddam?

[Jack_Dawson]

I don't. :shrug:

Happy Friday

:beer:

[Kikosexy2]

1. No ...

not really...but he'll make the cover of the July issue of Playgirl.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

2. I only feel bad...

that the Geneva Conventions are once again being violated. They are meant to protect everyone -- from our own soldiers who are captured in battle to men like Hussein.

[Horse with no Name]

4. Exactly

And that our leaders are okay with flaunting violations of the Conventions. Kind of like rubbing someone's face in it.
That is what is scary.
With that being said, SH still has supporters out there.
No doubt the insurgency will pick up, but sadly will be blamed on the Newsweek article.

[uppityperson]

6. Exactly

I don't feel sorry for Saddam getting an unflattering picture out, but I do feel bad that the USA can get by with going against the Geneva convention. hypocrites.

[johnfunk]

36. How many FReepers do you think have posted...

I've seen England
I've seen France
I've seen Saddam
In his underpants!

It's about their speed...

[Tinoire]

3. I feel worse for those who don't understand the problem.

Happy Friday

:Chateau Margaux:

[Jack_Dawson]

8. Oh I understand the problem...

It's gonna rile people up more than ever, and the U.S. looks worse than ever. No argument here.

But I'm talking about Saddam himself. I don't feel bad for Saddam. I mean he and his kids used to feed people into woodchippers for chrissakes.

JD

[LynnTheDem]

18. You MUST be joking! MY GOD. A LIBERAL still spouting that BULLSHIT???

Even the right doesn't bother much with that one any more.

You don't still believe in the "incubator babies tossed onto the floor to die" bullshit, too, do you?

The "woodchippers" story was a LIE and a very STUPID lie. You obviously missed the entire debacle of just how that bullshit started.

Interested in learning? If so, I'll dig out the facts.

[Just Me]

27. Guess you didn't get the memo,...

,...neoCONfascists are in charge and so we are now a nation of men, not laws.

We are a nation manipulated through emotion, encouraged to engage in vigilantism; incited to celebrate lawlessness and breach fundamental human rights; unless, of course, it involves enormous non-violent protests involving political speech. In that case, we are caged and sprayed and arrested. In that case we are expected to give up our civil rights, constitutional protections and essential freedoms.

Our leadership has created a nation of men, not laws.

[LynnTheDem]

30. Yeah but do we have to suffer liberals spouting total debunked bullshit,

too???

*Luvs ya, Just Me; your good and decent heart shines through on your every post.

[Just Me]

35. *blush*

Thanks.

:hug: I admire you greatly!

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Saddam Hussein and his murderous sons were bad enough

without rehashing the old woodchipper nonsense. I understand that it's done for effect, but I can't help but see it as childish.

[VOX]

39. Really, Jack -- are you still falling for that one?

This is not to say that Saddam & Co. weren't the worst brand of thugs -- they were.

But the woodchipper-business is an urban folktale, along with spiders in the lacquered hairdo and the vanishing hitchiker.

[Jack_Dawson]

48. The Atlantic Monthly is bullshit?

I'm sorry I don't live on this board anymore. Maybe someone could send me the "it's bullshit" link? Thx

[pretzel4gore]

43. jack, who told you that?

saddam was no worse (nor any better) then any other political gangster in that area of the world....indeed, being a fair administrator, he had his virtues which many countries could use: the brutality saddam was guilty of was not unusual (consider syria, or iran before the revolution, or chechnya, or afghanistan, or kuwait, or saudi arabia) considering the circumstances...it is the 'christian' west mainly britain and US who set the standards of depraved brutality in the mideast (i had a friend once, an australian sailor, who spent time in indo china before the wars triggered by de-colonialization.... his hatred of the french stemmed from their destruction of societies in vietnam and cambodia/laos etc which terry described as manicured beauty; they even put flowers on their oxen)...being an iraqi, saddam hussein cannot be judged by us unless we use similarly harsh standards on our own leadership, which we in fact do the opposite of...(bush is a fukking joke compared to saddam hussein) it's highly unlikely saddam, his sons or anyone put people in 'woodchippers' that's just foxnews demonization imo...rumsmell and cheney are much more likely to personally torture people then saddam, as history has shown many many times...it's they who accuse saddam of being a monstrous thug...saddam's real failing to me was his trust in the cia, being one of their assets all along (see iran-iraq war)

[LynnTheDem]

47. It was a Brit, Ann Clwyd, Labour MP who started that bullshit and NO ONE

not even most rightwingnuts, would have EVER believed her bullshit if they knew the facts of how she got her story. And STORY it certainly was;

First her story, and then what happened when it was looked into;

Ann Clwyd, Labour MP for Cynon Valley and chair of Indict, a group that has been campaigning since 1996 for the creation of an international criminal tribunal to try the Baathists, wrote of the shredder in the Times on 18 March — the day of the Iraq debate in the House of Commons and three days before the start of the war. Clwyd described an Iraqi’s claims that male prisoners were dropped into a machine ‘designed for shredding plastic’, before their minced remains were ‘placed in plastic bags’ so they could later be used as ‘fish food’. Sometimes the victims were dropped in feet first, reported Clwyd, so they could briefly behold their own mutilation before death.

Ok, sounds "monster" and "evil-doer". But when she was asked for details, things get so stupid it's ridiculous.

Clwyd insists that corroboration of the shredder story came when she was shown a dossier by a reporter from Fox TV. On June 18, Clwyd wrote a second article for the Times, citing a "record book" from Abu Ghraib, which described one of the methods of execution as "mincing".

Can she say who compiled this book? "No, I can't." Where is it now? "I don't know." What was the name of the Fox reporter who showed it to her? "I have no idea." Did Clwyd read the entire thing? "No, it was in Arabic! I only saw it briefly."

:wow:

Curiously, there is no mention of the book or of "mincing" as a method of execution on the Fox News website, nor does its foreign editor recall it.

:wow:

Other groups have no recorded accounts of a human shredder. An Amnesty International spokesman tells me that his inquiries into the shredder "drew a blank". Widney Brown, the deputy programme director of Human Rights Watch, says: "We have not heard of that particular form of execution or torture."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/analysis/story/0,3604,1155399,00.html


So there ya have it, the "people-shredder" story.

Real believable, ain't it.

By the way, anyone know how many deaths Amnesty International attributes to Saddam's 30-year reign?

17,000.

Is that worth 1700+ troops' deaths, 1600+ ours (so far)? $300 billion of our money, and likely to be double that long before it ends? Is that worth the world hatred towards us and increased terrorism (to record levels 2 years running)?

[izzie]

5. If my grandson turns up looking like that I will feel bad.

Why do we have to sink to their level? Saddam was a nut case and just why do we have to show the world we are run by nuts also?

[BurtWorm]

7. OT: I can't believe that signature animation!

:rofl:

Excellent, dude!

[uppityperson]

9. Too funny, worth waiting to load.

oops

[Coexist]

12. uppity - your signature line - oh my gosh! I love it.

[Coexist]

10. No -I'm embarrassed that our Defense Department would release that photo

If that is their idea of a tactical move on how to win the war on terror(ism), they need to retire and make room for some new blood.
Really - to demoralize Saddam's supporters?!
Worst. Idea. Ever.

[ComerPerro]

11. No. But I feel bad for our soldiers

who may get captured, because if the US doesn't respect the Geneva Convention then we can't really expect our enemies to follow it when they capture our soldiers.

I know you understand this, I saw your other replies in this thread. But I am just saying that my concern is more for our reputation, because it dictates how American troops will be treated.

[lala_rawraw]

13. Another American "leaked" horror...

Don't you see this is not about Saddam? This is about Rove taking down the foreign press.

[GirlinContempt]

22. Ack self delete

replied to the wrong post

[GirlinContempt]

14. I feel badly

For anyone who is treated in an unjust manner. I feel badly that this even needs to be a discussion. I feel badly that the so-called moralists who so condemned the horrible things that were done by a person would promote the humiliation of another human being, no matter who that human is. I feel badly that the US is promoting hatred and intolerance all over the world, and that the US is providing fodder to and strengthening the extremists of the world. I feel badly that our idea of humanity only seems to apply to whites 95% of the time.

[Disturbed]

17. Why is Saddam still in a U.S. Prison?

WMDs were the reason given for the Invasion of Iraq. No WMDS. What is the charge against Saddam?

[GirlinContempt]

19. CNN - posted about 5 minutes ago

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/20/di.stefano/

"The other important issue, of course, is the whole question of when is this man going to be charged? This is what the whole world wants.

Never mind about photographs of Saddam Hussein in his underpants. That will be dealt with by the Pentagon and their aggressive inquiry. But I would suggest that Mr. Rumsfeld and President Bush's aggressive inquiry is into why no charges have still been laid against the president, Saddam Hussein, after 19 months in custody and only two legal visits within that 19 months."

[GirlinContempt]

23. And I LOVE this Blitzer quote

wherein it seems to me he not only excuses the tiny detail of charges not being laid for months, but uses other prisoners who's rights are also withheld to back this up! Because, if it's happening to a bunch of people, it MUST be ok! :shrug:

BLITZER: Well, there are a lot of detainees being held at the U.S. naval base in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, and detainees being held elsewhere that haven't formally been charged with anything either.

[LynnTheDem]

21. HEAR! HEAR!

I stand and applaud you; you are a TRUE LIBERAL. I'm PROUD to be on a board with someone who knows the TRUE MEANING of COMPASSION.

[GirlinContempt]

26. THANK you, and

your post was right on the money as well!

[JanMichael]

15. I'm indifferent to him. However I'm appalled that this country has sunk so

...low.

I see it this way...Either the rule of law, and humane treatment, is applied to all, or in my very humble opinion, there is no law.

[LynnTheDem]

16. YES. I do. It's called COMPASSION and a passion for seeing ALL PEOPLE

regardless who they are treated in a JUST and LEGAL manner.

To MOCK and RIDICULE and HUMILIATE a human being for NO PURPOSE whatsoever other than JUST FOR THE FUN of MOCKING and RIDULING and HUMILIATING a human being is DESPICABLE.

If BUSH were sitting in a jail cell for his war crimes, and someone took pics of him in his underwear & published those pics, I'd feel sorry for bush and BLOODY ANGRY at the bastard(s) who took the pics & who published them.

Anyone so stingy with, so lacking in, any human compassion for another human being treated in such a manner, I feel sorry for them, too.

I am the fortunate one to have enough compassion to feel sorry for ANYONE treated in such a manner as Saddam Hussein has been with these atrocious photos.

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. No

You see, you seem to care about human dignity. That's a big no no in contemporary America. We're a revenge society, which means dignity is only accorded to those judged (by whatever standard is currently in vogue) to be victims, while those judged to be perpetrators have no right to human dignity, since, by being perpetrators, they lose their status as human beings. It's all quite normal, I assure you. As a matter of fact, we'll probably see three to five responses to this very post arguing that human dignity is too good for this non-human, etc., all of which responses will be puffed up in the most remarkable spectacle of self-aggrandizing and hypocritical arrogance. 3...2...1...

[LynnTheDem]

28. Well I (and you, sorry to tell ya!) & at least a few others on this board

are going against the flow of Contemporary Revenge Society America, and standing by the teachings of a very great man, a true liberal, who also had compassion for ALL humans, a driving thirst for justice and dignity for ALL humans, and I'd PROUD to strive for the same level from myself.

It's EASY to be compassionate for sweet and fluffy. The TRUE TEST is being compassionate when it is NOT easy.

Most posters so far on this thread have failed that test.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. I think most people do have it

But they feel it in proximity. Very few people can stand real cruelty when it unfolds in front of them, even persistent mockery. The problem, as Zygmut Bauman and others have argued, is that our ethical sense is developed for situations of proximity, while we now have the capacity to observe and pass judgment at great distances. The physical presence and eyes of the other induces an ethical response that the photograph or even video often does not. The great photographs of history are those that cross this breach. This is a phenomenon attested to by even soldiers, who are trained to block certain ethical responses (in fact, their training is in large part made up of developing just this capacity for blockage); and - in a more cliched way - by executioners, who often report remarkable ethical pangs when putting to death even the most depraved and cruel murderers. I doubt even the most blustering blusterer on this thread could stand much infliction of pain on even Saddam Hussein were that blustering blusterer in the room with him, though said blustering blusterer will of course claim (from this great distance) to desire just such a thing.

The trick then, is to begin developing an ethical sense that comports more with our capacity to connect at great distance. This requires no less than an evolutionary leap in our ethical comportment to the other.

[LynnTheDem]

46. I was born with long-distance capacity I guess. I work with the

ICCC (Iraq Coalition Casualty Count) so pretty much daily I see pics of troops (US and non-US) crying, screaming, bleeding to death, dead...I see Iraqis crying, screaming, bleeding to death.

And I cry every time. And carry on to the next death and destruction.

There was one pic 2 years ago, when the UN building in Iraq was hit. A very old Iraqi man had been knocked off his feet by the blast. People around him were helping him up. He was in tears, and the look on his face...he was so confused and frightened and dazed and just totally not understanding why this was happening. All I wanted to do -still want to do- is hug him and tell him "I'm so sorry."

I get pics across my feeds of dead troops. One such photo was of 4 US soldiers who'd been killed together in an ambush. One soldier's helmet was lying a foot or so away from his head, rolled away when his body hit the ground. It was just so sad. Another soldier was lying with his left hand upturned, fingers slightly curled in. I so badly wanted to hold them and rock them in my arms and croon to them that everything was alright now, they were safe now.

Between the God-awful photos from Gulf War, and the God-awful photos from Iraq and Afghanistan, I only worry over my capacity for feeling compassion for all people, regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done, running out. THAT would, to me, be a tragedy.

[Jack_Dawson]

50. That's horrible

My heart goes out to you.

[LynnTheDem]

51. Thank you, Jack_Dawson.

My heart goes out to so many every day, I appreciate the replinishment! :)

:hug:

[Just Me]

31. Seriously, though,....when did that happen?

It must have snuck up on me. Oh, I remember,...it happened the moment the neoCON regime took over this country!!! They are excellent leaders for fascism. Superb! They would make Goebbels blush in complete humiliation.

[johnfunk]

42. Hear, hear! See my comment on FRepers above...

... and here's a thought:

Wouldn't it be something if the Saddam pix touch off riots?

Riots that cause loss of life?

Do you think that Chimperor George W. Bunnypants XLIII will call Rupert Murdoch to task the way his acolytes and handlers did Newsweek for a story that appears to be pretty much spot-on, reported in numerous other periodicals, apparently from multiple sources?

[CarefullyLiberal]

44. Thank you, thank you!!!

I agree with you 100%!!

After all, everyone knows Saddam Hussein is a boxers man, not a briefs man.

Sheesh!!

Saddam in him underpants. That is just so wrong. Where is his dignity, his compassion, his caring for the suffering? Those effing Bushite moron lamebrains with cameras, I curse them all.

Thanks again for that great post. You hit the evil dictator on the head.

-Fergus

P.S. - Per your request, you can feel sorry for me now. I am clearly without human compassion. You are indeed the fortunate one. I envy you. :crazy:

[Just Me]

25. "Feelings" aside,...are we a nation of laws or men?

Uh,..oh,...nevermind.

[LynnTheDem]

33. *squeek*

Oh wait, never mind. Was thinking of a different question.

:D

[bigwillq]

29. Nope (nt)

[liberalhistorian]

32. HELL NO!

But I DO feel bad for all those he and his diabolical sons murdered and tortured over the years.

[Disturbed]

41. Here is the essence of a principle.

We have a stupid poser as a Pres. He has said that Saddam should get the Death Penalty but what are the freakin' charges and where would an actual fair trial take place? Amerika is supossed to stand for justice isn't it?

Under this principle is the following; I ask the readers to actually think about the notion of justice for all.


Rumsfailed Admitted to Violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public on TV that when CIA Director Tenet requested that an Iraqi prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so. After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act. Rumsfailed then ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graihib but the prisoner was purposefully not listed at that location, also an illegal act. Rumsfeld also admitted to signing orders for tougher interogation methods which violated the Geneva Conventions.

Rumfailed has commited at least three violations of the Geneva Convention thereby also violations of The Constitution of the USA. Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfailed and Tenet have not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfailed and also proscecute Ex. CIA Tenet.


Does the US, Govt., Congress, and the Justice Dept no longer abide by the Geneva Convention or the Constitution of the USA?

[GirlinContempt]

45. MLK, Ghandi, Weisel & Berrigan disagree, I'm afraid

"I swore never to be silent whenever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." -Elie Weisel

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it... Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate.... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Ghandi

"The death of a single human being is too heavy a price for the vindication of any principle, however sacred." -Daniel Berrigan


"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace." -Albert Schweitzer

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

Of course, I'm basing that on the assumption that you meant your post to imply that because he and his son's did bad things, you don't feel badly for injustice toward him.

[Mugweed]

34. It's a dtstraction.

Just something else to keep the corporate media from focusing on the Downing Street memo. Leaked at just the right time.

[Just Me]

37. Backfired, as usual,...not that they care.

They LUST for perpetual conflict 'cause they are empowered by it, make huge sums of money from it.

It's a damn shame that violations of U.S. laws has become the norm.

[VOX]

38. Feel bad? No. Should he be sideshow material? No.

For all its self-promotion regarding freedom, the U.S. should be held to higher standards when it comes to treatment of prisoners, and that includes prisoners of war.

And that area has been a *serious* miserable failure in a series of miserable failures. :grr:

[Qanisqineq]

52. I'm with you

Don't feel bad for him but don't think it should have been done. I haven't seen the pictures but I hear he was in his underwear. Doing what? Just standing there? If so, he'll get over it.

[cry baby]

49. NO! But we have to learn to play by the geneva convention rules

or else we will lose the last little bit of respect there is out there for us. We are blatant, arrogant, pious, and stupid when it comes to foreign policy in this admin.