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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:06 PM
Original message
so, how's moving to the center working for you?
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. What move to the center?
If you're asking as a personal question - I'm not moving anywhere. :patriot:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. :) I meant the party.
:)
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Ah - I see
Nope. Not working for me. Thanks for the clarification. :hi:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
66. Now you've made me dig up that awesome thread...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=296x3890


Texas Dems explain to DLC what a centerist Dem really thinks.


as posted at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/houstonnorml/message/4061

The John Kelly (of Texasppc) open letter to the DLC was originally posted at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/texasppc but this Yahoogroup requires membership to read messages.

Apr 7, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: An Open Letter to Al From and Bruce Reed and others in the DLC

In response to the Article by Donald Lambro in the April 4, 2005 issue of the Washington Times, "Centrist Democrats Warn Liberals" and Al From and Bruce Reed's writings in Blueprint Magazine at
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=132&subid=193&cont...

An Open Letter to Al From and Bruce Reed and others in the DLC

As a bonafide working stiff out here in the heartland let me explain to you guys in D.C. what the heartland wants, and it ain't any of that hose job you sent up as a trial balloon to challenge the left to a duel for the party.

1. We want security all right; we want the security of not having multinational corporations control foreign policy for their benefit and using our government to sacrifice our children for higher corporate profits or the imperialist dreams of a bunch of megalomaniacs. We want a foreign policy that says we won't trade with you or invest capital wealth generated on the backs of working Americans if it is to be used to exploit some poor working stiff in another land, poison our environment here or there and generally piss off the rest of the world at us.

2. We want a foreign policy with projects like the peace corps that help people around the world improve their basic quality of life and teach Americans not to look through the narrow looking glass of 6% of the world's population, which in case you have forgotten is what we are. I'm not sure what you mean by the internationalism of Roosevelt (the adventurism of Teddy or the reluctant entry of Franklin), Truman (who brought us Korea and a nuclear arms race) or Kennedy (the forcing of Cuba into Russian arms or his planned withdrawal from Viet Nam). Maybe a multilateral approach that didn't consider the rest of the world our piggy bank or toilet might be a good start.

3. You want to get out of Iraq and make peace and democracy. LEAVE, Tell the Iraqi government that instead of using the 87 billion dollars we are going to spend bombing their country into the stone age we will allocate it as restitution and use it to fund infrastructure programs they decide on, as soon as they form their own government or governments as they see fit. You believe in free markets, divide the money up, it comes out to $4,142 for every man women and child in Iraq. Tell the Iraqis that and you probably will have peace tomorrow. If they want to be three countries, let them if your interest is really democracy and freedom. You guys would probably get the Nobel Peace prize, save a lot of American and Iraqi lives and it would be cheaper in the long run. What do we care what form their democracy takes, unless of course it really is about corporate profits and oil.

4. We want the security of knowing our children can get a quality education, that means elementary and middle schools with reasonable numbers of children in a classroom, well paid professional teachers, in safe clean buildings, high schools that prepare students vocationally or for college which ever they have the aptitude for and colleges and vocational schools that can help them be productive, educated and useful citizens of the world. We don't want under funded, crowded schools, with underpaid teachers, worthless testing, religious training or having our children risk death or injury in the military to get a higher education.

5. We want the security of knowing if we are incapacitated or die that our families will have basic healthcare, some income protection and retirement. We are tired of hearing you talk about responsibility. You people in Washington don't have a clue about responsibility. The Republicans and Right Wing (New) Democrats are interested in gaining and maintaining political and economic power at the working guy and poor people's expense. And while I'm at it you imply that poor people are poor because they want to be that way. A regular mistaken belief of those who have never been poor.

6. By the way we want the security of universal healthcare. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when you take all of the costs of duplication of health plan administration (federal, state, 50 Medicaid programs, Medicare, numerous private indemnity, HMO's, billing offices, etc.) that there is enough money to give everyone in the country basic healthcare if you have one system. Besides you and everyone else know that a majority of Americans support a single payer plan. You guys are gutless, talk about unifying issues. And one more thing, what about prescription drugs, you guys have taken money time and again to let pharmaceuticals companies make my great Aunt Mabel choose dog food to eat in order to buy drugs to keep herself alive, because she lives too far from Mexico.

7. We want the security of not being preyed upon by giant banks and financial companies who no longer have to abide by any usury laws. You guys want to talk the need for a constitutional amendment, there's one. Prevent credit card companies and banks from taking advantage of people when they are at their most vulnerable. And what about bankruptcy, you allowed and many of you joined in on the fuck fest of called bankruptcy reform where regular Jills an Joes who are already victimized by the healthcare system, the temptation of easy credit, divorce, college expenses or other tragedy in their life get sentenced to indentured servitude while giant corporations and fat rich fucks like you guys and your supporters walk. Then you turn around and take their excess profits in campaign donations and shift their tax burden to us. DO YOU GUYS HONESTLY THINK THAT YOU ARE THE ANSWER TO THE MIDDLE CLASSES PROBLEM?? YOU'RE EITHER SMOKING BAD STUFF OR TOTALLY DELUSIONAL.

8. We want you to support our values, that means that you reverse the trend of income degradation of almost 30% since 1970. You want to help family values and protect our children, make it possible for a family to live on one income again, don't allow "productivity" to make the work place a sixty hour a week toil for both parents in order to make it. And those folks at the bottom who are working two or three jobs at minimum wage or a little better in order to fall behind even more and watch their children fall into the criminal justice system. Either pay them more or help them more, but don't undercut what little support they get now and tell them to join the great world of capitalism. They already know about that, but their view is from under the outhouse looking out the hole, and they know an asshole when they see one.

9. We want the security of not having the boss take the money he earns off from our labor and start a factory in China where he can make more money off some other poor mook's labor, send me cheap plastic shit that I give him money for from my unemployment check which is financed by treasury bonds that the government sold to China, which they bought with the money that my boss stole from me. GET IT!! I don't want the poor mook in China to not have a job, I just want him to get the same decent wage as me so we can all make a living.

10. Speaking of cheap plastic shit, you want to do something about TV, do something about the advertising, I don't need more cheap plastic crap, a newer bigger SUV (ever hear of CAFÉ), pecker hardener drugs to beg my Dr. for, an attorney to sue somebody's sorry ass or most of the other junk that passes as a poor substitute for a real happiness and joy in life. And while you're at it could you ban those damned TV preachers too. And you wonder why half the adult male population is hooked on internet porn (which by the way has probably saved more marriages then Billy Graham), their children are on medication and the women who aren't just totally worn out are trying to figure out who they have to blow to get a tit job so they can escape their miserable lives. You want to restore morality to America, give us a decent wage, some time off and less distraction from real life.

11. And for GOD'S SAKE BAN CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS. I would gladly pay tax money for a 30 day (THAT'S RIGHT 30 DAY) campaign race. The candidates could have a debates four times a week at different places around the country, where real people not some snot nosed, suck up, laughingly referred to as a journalist ask real questions like "WHAT THE HELL YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT GETTING MY STREET FIXED". Any thing more then that is just bull shit any way.

12. And open up the system for other parties and candidates, my junior high social studies teacher would have been a better legislator or president then most of these dumb asses we have had lately and that includes Clinton. Every dumb ass cracker in the country knows you don't get blowjobs from some girl who has everything in the world to gain by telling your wife.

13. Now you say where would we get the money for all of this. It ain't hard Bubba. First you get rid of all of that high tech military crap and secret agent stuff and train every man and woman in America how to defend this country incase those screaming ass chinamen come charging over the hill in the back yard and organize them by communities. Of course that would be dangerous since they would figure out that they might be able to accomplish all kinds of things by themselves without depending on your blood sucking asses. The terrorists in my life that I have to watch out for are the electric company and the bank. This ain't rocket science Bubba, (or as Dumsfeld said maybe it is) but it don't take a genius to figure out that when just the military budget that you know about, is more then almost all of the other countries in the world IT IS NOT FOR DEFENSE.

14. You want to pass laws, pass some that tell a corporation they don't have the same and in many cases more rights then me. I read the bill of rights, it don't say nothing about no damn corporation having more rights then me. You want to help society become a bunch of entrepreneurs, pass universal healthcare, strengthen disability and retirement programs, Most corporate employees will be out the door by 8:15 to start their own business. WE DON'T LIKE BEING SLAVES TO HEALTHCARE AND RETIREMENT SO WE CAN LET SOME MIDDLE MANAGEMENT PSYCHO WITHOUT A DIAGNOSIS PISS ON OUR SHOES EVERY TIME HE FEELS LIKE IT.

15. I want security from crime too, and I know how to do it. Change the economy so people can get a decent job that doesn't make them so hopeless that they drink or drug themselves daily to cope or have to sell drugs to get by. "Let me see I can work at McDonalds with my high school diploma or I can sell drugs and buy the American dream". Watch MTV, dude it's a career plan. Hell if my local drug dealer would agree to just sell cocaine and heroin to rich bastards, sell pot to everyone else and contribute some money to community projects, I'd let him put up a sign and a drive through.

I love it when you guys talk about the multibillion-dollar war on drugs like its some battle against evil. It's a joke, cocaine and heroin are cheaper on the street then in the 70's, Rush and the rest of you rich assholes are getting your good dope from your doctors, we're using it as an excuse to let corporate America invade other countries, more people die every month from alcohol related causes then in Iraq and you guys are busting grandmas for using pot to deal with their arthritis because they can't afford prescription drugs. The average American doesn't realize that the war on drugs has produced a full employment guarantee, tribute collection (confiscation laws), and prison industry that keeps people of color oppressed and provides jobs to lawyers and white bubbas as prison guards and cops. I know communities that are terrified of changes in parole laws because it threatens their economic base, prisons.

16. If I missed anything else about security, just come down here in the heartland and work at Wal-Mart, clean someone else's toilet for minimum wage, get your ass out shoveling pig shit, working pulling the guts out of cows all day, be chained to a desk in a 5X5 cubicle in some meaningless go no where "career", buy student supplies and needs out of your own pocket for kids who are growing up alone and anxious, cull shrimp all night bouncing on the gulf, all the while watching tv images that tell you what a loser you are while the people who are supposed to protect you tell you to be very, very afraid. All of the time you get to think about what if that one thing happens to push me over the edge financially into that hole that I will never get out of. Then maybe you will know something about what would make us secure. UNTIL THEN KEEP YOUR SILLY ASS OPINIONS TO YOURSELF.

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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. WOW! Thanks for posting that., I had never seen it before.
I need to spend more time in the Texas forum. :hi:
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Who, me?
I'm still dangling way out here on the far left end of the spectrum, waiting for other people to join me in trying to move the mushy middle our way.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. see #3.
Should have been more specific. :)
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why didn't Nader win the election?
Too far to the center?

:shrug:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I asked first.
;-)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
62. "Nader" - The DU Equivalent of Clinton's Penis
It's easier than taking responsibility, I guess.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Too bad the center has moved to the right of Attila the Hun.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. SHHHHH!
we can't talk about that!!!
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. just fine, thank you...go Joe!!
Bill Moyers RULES MY WORLD
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. LOL!
:hi:
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. it's affecting my waistline.
from all popcarn i've been eating watching the dems get their asses handed to them by the repooks even while their trying to BE repooks!

it's like a a car wreck, i can't look away! :popcorn:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. you're becoming a centripotato.
;-)
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. I haven't moved a damned bit ... and now I find myself
on the left fringe.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. join the club.
:)
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
59. BURN, UBER-LEFTY! BUUUUUUUURRRRRNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!
:D

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. I do NOT know WHAT you are talking about.
Did someone poke you in the eye today?

:shrug:
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. no, no.
I'm well, thank you. :)
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. Oh, thank goodness. I was worried you lost sight of,...
,...the target.

I confess that I am quite the "worrier" these days. They say only women bear such worries. But, I think "they" are full of shit!!! }(

Yep. Carry on. :bounce:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. I first read this and snickered. I keep coming back to it and
snickering.

I know I shouldn't snicker - merry peals of laughter - but I just love this question.

It deliciously needles and I do so enjoy a good tweaking.

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. uly has learned how to deliciously needle in the past five years
i envy his needling abilities!
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. it's the gift of snark.
Actually, I'd really like to hear from someone for whom the move to the center is working, but they probably all have me on ignore. ;-)
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
60. Why does that sound dirty?
Man, this is turning into a Lounge thread...!

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. "you have to mess with people, day and night!"
- Utah Phillips

:D
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Life could grow dull otherwise

:)
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. I am as Liberal as they come but nothing is perfect
Every single Liberal Program that has been established can be made better, even Social Security. I am for doing what is right and best for humanity and America. Sometimes doing what is best means making some changes. That is how we all evolve. If center is better for regular people then I am for it if it is only better for political purposes then I am against center. I lean (hard over) left but still try and apply common sense. I am not sure what center proposal or issue you may be referring to but I address each on it's merits. That is why I am classified as an Independent and not a Democrat.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. of course that's true.
Social Security, Welfare - anything can be improved upon, and *must* be adjusted according to current circumstances. There is, however, a difference between that and abandoning the central idea wholesale.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. Help me understand.
Moving further to the Left would have won us the election...how? Put another way, how many people on the Left decided not to vote for Kerry because he was too_____?

How?

Since I believe the election was stolen, it really wouldn't have mattered who we had run. Kerry just made Bush's required margin of vote stealing larger. Instead of say, 1 in 15 votes, they had to increase it to 1 in 10.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. the burden of proof isn't on the left. it's on the center.
The centrists are the ones who proclaimed that our salvation lay with those who can't make up their damned minds.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Nice copout.
Lalalala...

You still haven't explained how we could have gained more votes by tacking to port. Cuz the answer is, you got none.

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. nope. no copout.
You still haven't answered the original question.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. I'll answer your question.
"how's moving to the center working for you?"

I'd say everyday the center is moving towards the Democratic position. So we are winning the battle for a real pluralistic majority. So it is working for me.

Now, will you answer my question?

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. "the center is moving towards the Democratic position"
I very much doubt that. If it's working for you, though, so be it.

Now, will you answer my question?

which was...

You still haven't explained how we could have gained more votes by tacking to port.

Issues on the left - health care for all, for example - are ones that will resonate with people if we give them a real chance.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. Oh, you mean like those DLC tools Hillary and BIll who promoted
a national health care plan in the 90s?

So please enlighten me and tell me who on the Left stayed home and didn't vote for Kerry? Or maybe Kerry was too far left for the middle?
But, you don't seem to think that the center is moving towards the Democratic positions...so you seem to be making a case that we should be moving more to the right.

Or maybe, the problem has nothing to do with left/center/right positions and everything to do with criminal rigging of election results.



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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. Ew,...you are so,...confrontational.
Forcing others to face reality.

But, please, do NOT destroy real-life "centrists". They are our friends. They seek balance in an unbalanced environment.

Seriously. Weigh constructive against destructive,...I ask of you.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
50. How many Democrats stayed home...
...because the party decided on a Repub lite platform trying to romance votes away from bush* instead of giving Working Americans something to get passionate about?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. I don't buy that our platform was "Repub lite."
On women's choice, on education, on civil rights, on the environment, on workers' rights, on urban renewal, on arts funding, on gun control, on stem cell research, on tax cuts for the wealthy, on Head Start, on renewable sources of energy, on national healthcare, on Social Security, on so many issues, there was and is a SHARP distinction between the parties.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. Yeah, and we had good, rousing debates on all those, didn't we?
Well, didn't we?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I think the debates made a lot of the differences clear.
They also showed that Kerry was waaaaay more articulate, informed and insightful on issues than Chimp (whose scripts and transmissions were showing).

They showed differences on every issue debated, except those where Chimp suddenly adopted the Democratic position.

I don't think there was any question that Kerry won the debates handily, and pointed out many major policy differences.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
24. Look, in the 70's I was a moderate, in the 80's a leftist, in the 90's...
I was left of center, and now I'm a raving left wing loony...

Funny thing is, I can't really see where my opinions changed all that much...
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. they probably haven't.
:)
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jmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'm loving it.
Being a Massachusetts liberal just didn't have enough of a stigma for me.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. got the "warm -n- fuzzies", do you?
;-)
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
30. Im a centrist on some issues
Doesnt make me and other like minded individuals repugs.Hope you guys and gals realize that.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. sure.
I'm more moderate on guns, not a happy position with some of my progressive fellows. You may fairly expect opposition on those issues, though.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Good Point
I just hope those of us with differing POVs on some issues arent branded as "republican lite".
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
75. Your right.


"Hope you guys and gals realize that"

I dont think many people here do.
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Michael_Bush Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
32. Moving to the left didn't help Nader, did it?
If selecting a fringe leftie politician was the answer to winning, then Nader should have won more votes than Kerry, not the other way around.

I agree we need to shift political opinion to the left on many issues. However, middle America is well, middle of the road. Until you change that fact, you have a rather stark choice. Play to win and change the country afterwards, or be pure and play to lose and whine about it.

I for one work to move the country to the left when I can but I vote for presidential nominees on the basis of who can win.

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. the question wasn't about Nader.
Care to address the actual question?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. you still there?
:hi:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. The corporations I used to work for are all doing fine.
A lot fewer people working there. But, heck! They sure are raking it in.



The Future, or the "flat earth" playing field
the turd Thomas Friedman bloviates about.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
41. It's not.
I'm still way out here to the left. It's starting to feel lonely.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. you're not alone.
:)
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
42. welfare and Iraq - has it been worth it?
Think about it - Nader caused the demise of western civilization and all that is good and true, as we've been told over and over. Yet the move to the center was what gave the impetus to Nader's campaigns.

Therefore, the move to the center caused the invasion of Iraq.

Was the opportunity to cut huge holes in the social safety net worth it?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
45. Uly....I thought you used to be a "centrist? You've been here before
me, I think and I've been here since '01. :shrug:

When did you change?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. LOL!
No, KoKo, in my 36 years I've never been a centrist. :D
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Okay...
Edited on Fri May-20-05 08:16 PM by KoKo01
all this time I've been posting my Left Wing blather have not seen you but I do remember posting some of my Left Wing stuff on one of your posts and getting sort of a negative brush off.

Oh well...perhaps my "blather" just was what I say: "Blather" :D you were maybe way ahead of me and felt I needed to catch up or ignored it.

:-)'s Anyway glad to see you are in the camp "for change" whatever my mistinterpretations were.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. or maybe
you shouldn't read too much into my lack of reply in a thread.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
48. Moved me to vote Green in '06.
My senator Cantwell(D) voted for the IWR. My congressman Baird(D) voted for more funding for the occupation and voted with the pugs re: Terri Schiavo.

I've notified both that their votes cost them mine (and, my wife's).
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. well sure,
but you're one of them leftist freaks. ;-)
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
51. NOT!
Ever more leftward....
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
52. We shifted past the CENTER a long time ago
But since most Americans lack the political education to understand that our little Democrat/Republican 2 party system doesn't set the Boundaries on political systems....it's a moot point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#Left_and_Right

Wikipedia is everyone's friend :D
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
54. I would LOVE to be a centrist,
but the Democratic Party is going to have to come back to me.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to be a centrist Democrat because you support:

*Universal healthCare

*Strong Labor Unions

*Corporate accountability for Environmental Damage

*Corporate responsibility for Safe WorkPlaces

*Fair Trade and Labor Practices that allow Mom & Pop to compete with Wal-Mart

*Education available to ALL who want it

*International Respect

*Fair Elections

*Proportional Representation

*No Corporate Money buying legislation in Washington

*A reformed Judicial System that provides EQUAL JUSTICE to all

*Fair wages for a days work

*A functional Safety Net that can help those who need it.

*A Country that values Humanity above Profits

*A country that spends MORE on Education, Health, Infrastructure WORLDWIDE than it spends on War and Destruction


I would LOVE to live in a country where those who support the above are centrists!
Wouldn't You?
Why not?

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. indeed I would.
Fact is, in any real accounting and speaking only for myself, I'm not an especially wild-eyed radical. It's only the current environment in which ideals like these seem to be so.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. Those are my CORE beliefs.
Those were the principles that my Democratic parents told me were the reasons I should vote Democrat in elections. My parents weren't wild eyed radicals and none of the above were considered fringe left positions. What happened?

If you asked ANY American (Republican OR Democrat) about those individual issues, most would agree that they would be good for America. Why are these beliefs marginalized and dismissed by the Policy Setting Leadership (the Money guys in the smoky back rooms who issue that talking points) as too idealistic, ideological purity, loony left, fringe (DLC)???

I don't INSIST that we have ALL these things today. I do insist that our Country MOVE in that direction instead of AWAY from those positions (last 25 years). I do INSIST that a Political Party that asks me for money and votes at least acknowledge those as goals instead of insulting me, ridiculing and marginalizing those goals, and telling me the Democratic party doesn't want me, need me (DLC), or BLAME ME for the Democratic Party's problems, problems which began when the Democratic Party invited Corporate Management into the Steering Committee.


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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
56. You mean, moving to the "center" which used to be the right?
Pretty lousy, I think.

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. well, yeah.
:) :hi:
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
61. If I've moved, it's to the left!
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
68. what the hell are you talking about?
All the party is doing right now is bailing water out of the rowboat to keep from sinking.
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-20-05 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
69. Huh?
To the left, to the left.
To the left, to the left..

Isn't that how the song goes?
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-21-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
72. The party has left me.
Now I consider myself more Green than anything - but there aren't any Green people to vote for anyway.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
73. Gosh Zell Miller claims we've moved too far left?
Hmmmmmm, who to believe? :eyes:
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