Can We At Least Admit That DU Does Not Represent The Majority Of Voters

[phrenzy]

Please?

I believe that we are all much more informed on the issues, and life in general than most of the 'mushy middle' people. But, let's face it - we really do not decide elections.

That said, you may not like it - but the F A C T is that Clark appeals to that part of the population that gets people ELECTED. Regardless of your problems are with him. I had tons of problems with Clinton - But, FUCK - look at the alternative!

I don't understand why other idealists (like myself) can't see that sometimes you have to build toward your ideals in steps. If Clark does get nominated and then elected - THEN we get to work from a different vantage point to move toward our ideals. At that point, they are at LEAST on the table for us.

With Bush in charge those ideals are so marginalized they are not even being discussed!

In any case, this is not to say that Dean is not electable. I don't feel that way. I DO feel that the planets will have to align JUST RIGHT for Dean to get in - whereas Clark can appeal to that EXISTING broad block of sheep that we need to get in.

Think strategically people. Think forward. In order to arrive at our ideals we need to understand how to get there.

[XanaDUer]

1. I once broached that subject

and got attacked and told I was being put on ignore for saying that, that I was not committed to the cause, that I was not an activist...yadda, yadda.

[MODemocrat]

31. I see that you support John Kerrey

and today when I saw a photo of Kerrey and Dean together in Newsweek, I was so overcome with pride. Wouldn't they make a good team?

Marian

[oasis]

49. John Kerry, not to be confused with Bob Kerrey.

[joeybee12]

2. Sorry, but you're projecting your views onto people

I believe both are electable, simply because Dumbo is so bad.

Dean can win quite easily.

The problem I have with Clark is mainly that people think he's the Messiah, and he's not, and I really resent the DLC and other Dem leaders telling me he's the most electable guy out there--he isn't. And if you viewed his performance the past couple days, you start to wonder if he's ready for prime time yet.

I won't buy into that electable/not-electable crap.

The coronation begins after you you win the nomination, not on the day when you say you're running for it.

[phrenzy]

7. Agreed

Clark is NOT the Messiah - but he CAN become one. And if you REALLY know the American people and how they decide things (what to buy, what to wear, what to listen to and who to vote for) - You would know Clark is **VERY** marketable to those people. That's all I mean.

To me it is a bonus that he seems to reflect my views on many things (and on several things he seems to NOT reflect my views)

But the fact is - I can say the same thing about Dean - but I see much more potential mass-appeal in Clark based on my understanding of the American consumer.

[Upfront]

21. Would Clark bring

the same positive things to a democratic ticket as a VP?

[Eloriel]

57. Oh, GAWD

The poverty consciousness we've sunk to: Clark is marketable.

Puh-leez. I've avoided this thread all damn day and finally got sick of looking at it. Now I'm sick (nauseous, actually) reading it.

Go vote for Clark. I don't care. But I DO care that you insult Americans -- including me -- to the extent you just have.

:puke:

Eloriel

[sandnsea]

13. Clark the messiah? lol

Shit this is getting to be so goddamn funny. Deannie's getting in a twit because Clarkie's think their guy is the messiah. rotfl I'm going to do my best to take the George Carlin approach and just enjoy the show!

[ComerPerro]

3. So go, convert, appeal to the masses

If Clark is the one who can appeal to Joe Sixpack, then please go talk about him to Joe Sixpack.

Or why not try here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=108

Clark, Dean, Kucinich... These are not GD topics.

[bearfartinthewoods]

16. sez who?

whatever makes you think the candidates shouldn't be discussed in GD?

[ComerPerro]

17. Mainly, because there is a forum for it

And I think some people are abusing their posting privelages. These threads on Clark have to go. Pro, anti, I don't care.

Can we start a "Clark" forum?

[janekat]

36. Where were you when this was the "Dean" forum? n/t

[ComerPerro]

59. Same place I was when it was the Kucinich forum

Because it happened at mostly the same time. But this Clark shit is relentless. He has been in the running for just a few days, and already he is the "only one who can save us"??

[Brian Sweat]

4. No, you wrong

Really. The whole country is made up of far left extremists who want to impose a maximum income and go around trashing Starbucks.

:evilgrin:

[wyldwolf]

8. And making people listen to indie music...

... :)

[Brian Sweat]

11. There's nothing wrong with indie music.

Besides, they don't want to make people listen to indie music, they want the right to steal music from the big record companies.

[wyldwolf]

15. Didn't say there was...

..they're just fanatical about it and everything else is just evil corporate sell outs!

Kinda like how they feel about certain presidential candidates.

[Sterling]

32. Yes the corporate media has served us so well.

:eyes:

Don't you just love McMusic and McCulture, yummy.

[Brian Sweat]

41. So why are you so pissed off that they won't let people steal their music?

[Sterling]

46. They cant stop people from "stealing" music but they will try

To scare people into thinking they can.

The fact is the industry “steals” from the artists. It is inherent in the way the system is set up and contracts are structured.

The reason I am so against the current system is the corporate monopoly on methods of marketing and promoting music.

Much like the corporate news media the corporate music industry have miss-used a public trust for their own financial gain and have gotten fat while charging more for an increasingly inferior product.

I think you have to have had some career experience in the business to fully understand why the corporate music industry as it is today needs to be replaced. You need to have worked in the business in the past 15-20 years to fully understand how it has changed and how this affects the artists, consumers, and society at large.

The struggle going on now is the death throws of a bloated giant giving way to a more organic method of procuring and enjoying music.

When the dust settles artist will keep a greater share of the fruits of their labor and consumers will pay less for a larger variety of products.

This issue is multi-layered and very complex but one I feel strongly about. I base my opinion on 15 years of experience in the industry and my belief in a true free market system that provides the best service to the consumer.

I enjoy discussing the subject so if you are ever interested PM me and we can bat some different ideas around.

[Sterling]

47. dupe

dupe

[ulysses]

5. so let's start taking those steps already

I haven't written off voting for Clark in the general, but good goddamn! Vouchers? Wasn't a Dem until when? Sorry - I'm just not gonna swoon because he's a general.

It'd be nice to get someone in who challenged the country, at least a little.

[OKNancy]

27. Vouchers

On school vouchers: "We've got to protect public education," but "there may be times and circumstances on an exceptional basis where vouchering makes sense."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22452-2003Sep17.html

[ulysses]

48. right

I disagree with that last little part, to put it mildly.

[Eloriel]

58. You're not the only one

But you ARE the nicer one. :evilgrin:

Eloriel

[Patriot_Spear]

6. I completely disagree...

DU is a tapastry of differnt views which reflect broader America perfectly.

Bush* will fall; one way or another. His defeat in the election is inevitable.

[Brian Sweat]

10. I hate to harsh your buzz

but DU intentionally excludes a significant segment of voters. With good reason I might add.

[Patriot_Spear]

12. There are all kinds on DU...

Like I said, I think there's a gamut of opinion on here, which taken as a whole reflects the real consensus.

We just harken to the less timid soul here, that's all.

[quaker bill]

29. A wide range

of left of center opinion. I work in the south with the general public. I see few of their views here, perhaps because they were deleted by the moderators.

More likely they just checking out newsmax and hodrod sites.

[Sterling]

33. Not really there are plenty of right wingers here.

Some are far more right of Republicans I know.

[KG]

39. truth, sterling

i remember when DU was a liberal/progessive website. :(

[Brian Sweat]

43. I know

Now there are so many people on here who are ideologically impure. The other day there was a poster on here who actually thought that it would be wrong to execute all of the fortune 500 CEO's.

[janekat]

55. oh c'mon... it's "idealists" vs. "realists" here....

I'm close to being a SOCIALIST and I don't see many right-wingers around here UNLESS you're talking about the freepers who play games by slamming all of the Dem candidates.

I believe that the differences here are between "realists" and "compromisers" vs. "idealists" The Idealists are concerned with idealogical purity and realists are basically concerned with winning.

I'm way far to the left but I now support the candidate that has the best chance of beating the Pubs. I absolutely DESPISE the current Republicans and will vote and campaign for whoever will oust them. I've never seen a candidate who even comes CLOSE to my beliefs. I've come to the realization that "You can't always get everything you want." (In my case, "you will never even come CLOSE to getting what you want so "suck up" and do the best you can."

[Seneca]

22. inevitable?

So you hope. We don't know. ANYTHING can happen in politics.

Anything.

A big year awaits. Polls and trends are not set in stone. Bush isn't done until either November of next year, or January 2009.

NOTHING in politics - or life - is inevitable.

[Patriot_Spear]

28. 'Nothing in Life is inevitable'? How about death, Lazarus?

Seriously though, Bush* is a disaster for this country on all fronts-the American public can be thick, but in this case I don't think they're that thick.

[HereSince1628]

9. Well sure, BUT its people like US who make the primary system work

The majority of people don't care about the primary or primary candidates.

People like us...the minority, the people who care, and who are the party activists are the ones that pay for the campaigns, donate their time, work their neighbors and co-workders, and actually bother to vote or stand in a caucus.

So the point is ALL 10 candidates must pass muster with the minority of Democrats before the general election.

Thank you, for the opportunity to make that clear.

[phrenzy]

14. Good Point

Good point. But I think as active Dems we need to keep an eye on the general at all times.

[joeybee12]

19. True, but I don't think the Dem leadership in Congress has a clue as to..

...what would appeal to the general voting population.

They are too busy trying to find the perfect candidate that they're missing the boat. People overlook a lot if they think someone actually stands for something. The Dems in Congress are too concerned baout being accomodating.

[LeahMira]

18. Half full or half empty?

I believe that we are all much more informed on the issues, and life in general than most of the 'mushy middle' people. But, let's face it - we really do not decide elections.

True. Most of the people who post on political boards don't realize that most of the rest of the world isn't as fascinated by politics and issues as they are.


That said, you may not like it - but the F A C T is that Clark appeals to that part of the population that gets people ELECTED.

So, there's the problem. What is it that Clark seems to be speaking to? Or what is it about Clark that makes the electorate feel more comfortable with him? The issues that people vote on are not always the issues that they talk about, but those are exactly the issues that a Democratic candidate needs to know and to talk about, right up front.


I don't understand why other idealists (like myself) can't see that sometimes you have to build toward your ideals in steps.

Maybe because it took over a hundred years for black people to get real legal equality, and maybe because even now they don't have that equality in fact. Maybe baby steps aren't the way to go? Maybe because once the people have visited an issue and dealt with it, however imperfectly, it's really hard to get them to revisit that same issue again real soon?


I DO feel that the planets will have to align JUST RIGHT for Dean to get in - whereas Clark can appeal to that EXISTING broad block of sheep that we need to get in.

I wonder if we don't alienate a lot of folks by referring to them as sheep? I wouldn't want to be called a sheep. Would you?

I'm not ready to talk about which of the ten candidates (it is ten now, isn't it?) that I'm going to support in the primary. I'm not sure about that, so please don't think that my mind's set against anyone (except Lieberman!).

I do think that any candidate can beat Bush IF s/he can manage to speak to the best in each of us, and even "sheep" can be good-hearted and decent if given a chance to be.

[Upfront]

30. Excellent post LeahMira

The American people like a candidate who is not to tightly bound to either party. May be good that Clark has voted rethug a time or two. We polital junkies may not be like that but lots of people are. You said the same thing, and much better. I will now clam up. lol

[DoveTurnedHawk]

20. It Doesn't, Not Even Close

There was a poll here recently, I think the socialists equalled the non-socialists.

While I think some elements of socialism are laudable, there are still many more self-described socialists here than there are in the general population.

DTH

[Sterling]

35. Many people are socialists and just don't know it.

Most socialist poicies are quite popular with Joe Six pack. The right wing goes to great lengths to convince Joe that socialism is bad for them.


I think DU allows a wide range of views. You for example posts opinions here all the time that my Bushbot mother would consider far right wing fringe.

As long as you claim you will vote Dem you are welcome at DU.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

44. Oh? Please, Enlighten Me.

You for example posts opinions here all the time that my Bushbot mother would consider far right wing fringe.

Name one.

DTH

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. Typical, Weak Post-and-Run

You've got nothing. I can't think of a single position where I'm right of mainstream. Next time, try libeling someone else.

DTH

[Brian Sweat]

45. Name a socialist policy that Joe Six Pack embrasses

that the average Democratic politician does not.

[janekat]

56. I'll bet plenty would go along with redistributing wealth - a 60% tax

rate for anyone who's worth over $2 million.

[Terwilliger]

23. oh great...so we should stomach the idiocy of the American voter?

OOPS! Never mind...the DLC has already deone all that!! :nuke:

[WilliamPitt]

51. Until you come up with a viable alternative before next year

yes.

[MisterP]

60. and what good would that do?

Bush can out-stupid us every day; "stomaching" it would only further the pattern of lying down instead of standing up, putting both short- and long-term goals further away. If we crawl, we lose. (My strategy: educate and set up a political infrastructure; a Wellstone-dedicated Progressive Leadership Council would help--an anti-DLC).

[Terwilliger]

24. oopsie

double your treasure, double your fun!

[JVS]

25. I've yet to see any support of clark outside of DU

So far I've seen a couple Dean and Gephardt bumper stickers

[Sterling]

37. I see a lot of Dean signs in NYC

He is very popular here.

[WilliamPitt]

52. Check the poll in LBN

[Cheswick2.0]

26. Who? Most of america has never heard of him

Clark who?

[disgruntella]

34. I don't think it's a "FACT" that Clark will win the election

But NO ONE can convince me that DU represents a well-balanced political spectrum of America. Sure, we're correct on most things, but ... :evilgrin:

[jbm]

38. I read somewhere..

(and to be honest,I think I read it at DU)that the majority of people vote based on an impression. Facts,truth and policy are all irrelevant as long as the impression is positive. The repubs figured this out several years ago and have made millions by selling positive impressions of their guys,and negative impressions of our guys.

I wish that the candidate with the most substance would also be the candidate most likely to win,but I'm afraid that we have to take into account the impression/electability factor..and that may mean making concessions.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

40. Bill Clinton said...

that it's about the "meta message", that this is the most important thing. Next is likeability. Last is issues.

Repubs have been good about getting out their "meta message"; for Bush it was that whole "compassionate conservative" crap. (Bet some people feel silly about falling for that now...heh.)

Dems have to get their message out, and it can't take 500 or even 50 words to explain. And no, I don't think "Bush Lied, People Died" counts as a meta message, though I sure wish it did. Needs to be something positive, I think.

[KG]

42. not it does not represent majority of voters - and that's a good thing.

:)

[Cat Atomic]

53. I disagree completely. We DO decide elections.

Look at the last one. If every person who's registered on DU had convinced just one person to vote Democrat... well... Clarence Thomas still would've given it to Bush, so nevermind.

;)

[MoonRiver]

54. I agree. I actually don't care much whether the nominee is

Dean, Kerry or Clark. It's just that I believe Clark can :kick: Selected's arse, big time. All these Dems are good people, espousing solid Democratic principles. Clark has the ability to draw many non-traditional Democratic votes, however. Let's just face facts, he's awesome, and he can win. Plus he can bring this country back to economic, social, and foreign policy normalcy. :kick: :kick:

[Isome]

61. foreign policy normalcy?

What's your definition of a normal foreign policy?