America, the land of stupid motherfuckers.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

I started thinking about this when the Iraqi invasion began. Surely, I wasn’t that much smarter than the rest of my countrymen. Surely, they could see that there were no WMD. Surely, they heard Saddam back peddle and invite inspectors in.

Guess not.

Today at work, our HR director was bitching about insurance costs. I said, “It’s amazing, isn’t it. We pay through the nose for crappy coverage that will drop you like a hot potato as soon as they can if you get sick and need to use what you’ve been paying for.”

She knows my feelings, so her answer was “Yes, but we get to pick the doctors we want!”

Yeah. As long as they are listed by our HMO.

She, like so many others has drank so deeply of the Kool Aide that she doesn’t even hear what she’s saying and does not go past Republican talking points in her reasoning. Mindsets like this are damning in their pervasiveness and damning in their results. Every day, I drive by SUV’s and pick up trucks festooned with American flags, bumper stickers proclaiming they support Bush, telling me that ‘these colors don’t run’ and yellow ribbon magnets to inform the world that they support the troops even though they would quickly dismiss any suggestion that they actually go to Iraq and truly support the war effort up close and personal. If all these people feel so strongly about this war, why are the Armed services falling so far behind in recruitment goals?

I’m still hearing people damning the French… “Surrender monkeys.” When I say that we would most likely be a part of the British Empire if it weren’t for Lafayette (You know, that French guy… “Lafayette, we are here” guy?), the answer I got today was “probably not.”

Are these people trying to be stupid? They make Luddites look like the Manhattan Project. Stem cells? Cloning? Evolution? If Newton lived in America today, they would hang him from the nearest tree to disprove the law of gravity. And call it compassionate science…

Compassion? Not if you are poor. You chose to be that way. Not if you’re gay. You chose to be that way. Killing tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens? We’re spreading freedom and you know you have to break a few eggs. After all, we lost 3000 people in the Trade Center disaster, so I guess that figures, Iraq ought to lose 30,000… Even though the 9-11 attackers were Saudis and Iraq had NOTHING to do with it.

I’m sorry, America, 51% of the voters are not simply uninformed. They are Stupid Motherfuckers because they have taken the lies given to them by a bunch of power hungry men and women and have not just held on to the lies but have gilded them in gold and carry the lies a battle standards.
</rant>

[babylonsister]

1. Sadly, I agree. You express my feelings exactly! nt

[podnoi]

43. Pathological Narcisism

From living overseas that is what I see about our culture. We are like spoiled children. We do not establish boundries. And we are a very unhapy and depressed people as well because of it.

[Old sixties guy]

98. American know nothingism

Right you are,podnoi.And,people-lets be honest here.Its not just the right wing yahoos who perpetrate this anti-intellectual climate.I work for a large government agency where at least 90% of the employees vote Democratic.Yet most have a very shallow knowledge of world and domestic affairs.They rarely read at all and when they do its treacly romance novels that are completely cliched.Jerry and Montel are two of their favorite TV shows.PBS?Whats that?
Not trying to sound elitist but as a working class guy I hate to see my fellow workers so dumbed down.Sure,we can blame the terribly unfunded public school systems but no one is stopping anyone from going to the library!

[OldEurope]

104. Welcome at DU, though I´m not even American

or perhaps because I´m not:
persons like you and all the other DUers are the hope of the world.

Greetings from Germany

[ngGale]

139. Hi Old Europe...

I've found myself thinking about Germany a lot lately. Like maybe it's the only place left in the world whose people can see where we are headed. :blush:

Thanks for saying we at the DU are the hope of the world. Galloway liked us to, so we hear. If we all could just run for office and win!

I have to agree with the original poster, myself. Sadly enough too many have and keep drinking the Kool Aid. The most intelligent people with degree's out the ying yang, keep repeating the Repub talking points. Feels like we live in a parallel universe or the "Twilight Zone."

[Carni]

55. Mine as well

The SUV thing esp...is something I marvel at daily.

What I love is, looking in my rear view mirror at a big SUV (usually they are tailgaiting me) and then seeing some middle aged man or woman yakking on their cell phone -- once they blast past me and then cut in front of me (usually cutting me off) There are ALWAYS, the customary Jesus fish ribbon formations, as you said "festooned" all across the back of their vehicles.

Now what is an out of shape middle aged woman or man going to do in Iraq? Not a God damned thing of course which is why they are so supportive (ie THEY don't have to go and as long as there is no draft neither will their children)

[mopaul]

2. you are correct sir

my mom must've said this a million times

[AlinPA]

3. Thank you for this post. I agree with you. n/t

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

133. You're welcome and thank you....

It has surprised me how many folks here agree with the sentiment.

A couple have called it devisive, I call it cathartic. It's been going on too long and seems to be gathering strength as another poster put it, (I'm paraphrasing) they are proud of being dumb.

Intellectuals are maligned and portrayed as a danger to Democracy, free thinkers are shunned, and the propoganda machine cranks on. I'm afraid that we are living in the last days of America or that some sort of unpleasant upheaval is near.

[Tux]

137. True

A couple fundies hang out at B&N on Friday nights trying to convert people so they won't have to read anymore. Using God given reason is now evil. When I was in MI, working class folks had bumper stickers that read "Your college sucks" and hated college students, grads, and professors for not being working class.

Jefferson said that an informed citzenry is needed for democracy to function. I think it's shutting down.

[leftchick]

4. excellent rant

Thank you for that. Stupid motherfuckers who don't even recognize when they are the ones being fucked.

:applause:

[MeDeMax]

35. I concur, awesome pic of Galloway n/t

[EST]

5. Spectacular!

[bryant69]

6. Well even if you buy that theory

there's still a hell of a lot Americans who aren't stupid MFs - isn't there? I mean the popular vote was pretty tight. Seems like a lot of people saw through President Bush's BS, even if it wasn't enough.

Bryant
http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[MindPilot]

18. At least fifty per cent of the population are below average.

And average ain't that bright.

Great rant TYJ! I suggest massaging that into an LTE.

[FreedomAngel82]

90. Don't forget

those of us in "red" states who voted Kerry. You have to add that to the equation as well.

[Mnemosyne]

7. Well Tom, so many of them live

in Dumbfuckistan, it's no wonder!
Great rant!
:evilgrin: :hi:

[Clark2008]

45. Uhhh... there are stupid people everywhere

I'm tired of us blue voters in red states getting bashed.

[Mnemosyne]

53. Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you! Did not make myself clear.

I've been blue in red several times in my life.

I only count those voting for * as the "dumfuckistanians"! They live in ALL states. It's a STATE of mind, not location!!

:hug: :hi:

[Clark2008]

144. Thank you!

Yes, yes... I live amongst some "dumfuckistanians," I do, but we're not all idiots 'round these here parts!

:hug:

(Sorry, being overly sensitive. There is too much Southern bashing around this board at times. I love my Southern heritage - even the bad parts that I choose to learn from rather than ignore - and it gets a bit testy on my mind.)

You're sweet response is VERY much appreciated! :hug:

[Clark2008]

145. Thank you!

Yes, yes... I live amongst some "dumfuckistanians," I do, but we're not all idiots 'round these here parts!

:hi:

(Sorry for being overly sensitive. There is too much Southern bashing around this board at times. I love my Southern heritage - even the bad parts that I choose to learn from rather than ignore - and it gets a bit testy on my mind.)

Your sweet response is VERY much appreciated! :hug:

[earth mom]

8. They should put the blame in the proper place but they don't.

They're either stupid or brainwashed or sociopathic. :puke:

[bluestateguy]

9. American voters should have to sign a statement that says the following...

before you vote you should have to sign the following statement:

I the undersigned am aware that Saddam Hussein and the government of Iraq had no part in planning and executing the 9/11 attacks on America. I am also aware that Iraq had no relationship with the Al Qaeda terrorist organization.

[Moxygirl]

10. Actually they are

GREEDY stupid motherfuckers so brainwashed by the corporate media they cling to a vain hope that their "American Idol" moment is just moments away and then they can take their rightful place among the elite.

Stupid delusional greedy selfish motherfuckers every last one.

[Hoping4Change]

89. Hi moxygirl.

Welcome to d underground. Glad you're here.:hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

93. Hi Moxygirl you makea good point

When the whole SS ordeal was going on I'd listen to some progressive station's and a few rightwingers would get through and they'd talk about how they'd like to have their own accounts and all that and the things they'd say is so greedy! As James Roosevelt said: "is it me and mine or I and we?"

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. Sadly the majority of people in this country defer to........

authority and that their opinions, their baseball team, their company, their leaders and their country can't possibly do wrong. Impossible. All facts will be ignored, I guess because it would be too difficult to admit a mistake, any mistake. They need to be perceived to be on the side of the winner and it doesn't matter how.
This is also the same mentality that stood behind King George during the revolution because they could not envision England loosing.

[wtmusic]

12. Should be posted on FreeRepublic

Excellent. Nominated.

:yourock:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

100. LOL... I don't think it would last too long there...

[spooked911]

13. show some compassion-- many of these people are just too busy

earning a living and/or uneducated to really follow what's going on, so they are easily manipulated by greedy/unethical leaders.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. That's the point, though...they are too busy to spend ANY time....

...outside of the time necessary to take care of their own family. And their burdens will begin to increase as the NeoCons continue to shift the tax burden to the middle and lower income levels.

[spooked911]

29. yes, it's a vicious cycle. A downward spiral.

[Tomee450]

111. I don't buy that excuse.

I used to work two jobs and still found time to read the newspaper, magazines and books. I know people who never read a newspaper or a book and if you try to discuss current events they don't know what you are talking about.

[spooked911]

115. Yes, you are smart and educated. I'm just saying have some compassion

for people who haven't been blessed with education or brains or curiosity.

[Tux]

138. Busy?

Yes but an hour online or watching a PBS news show won't kill them. Uneducated? Yes.

http://www.edgetech-us.com/Map/EduLvls.htm

College educated people are a minority in this nation. We're in trouble. People think that we're elitist and will control everyone's lives by forcing reason, knowledge, and science onto them. They prefer fundie crap so they don't have to think and the world is less scary. They fear death and hate life..

[Briarius]

159. Those maps are pretty depressing

but then again, I saw anti-intellectualism until I graduated high school (in southern Indiana). It seemed that people would hate you just for being smart, that they were proud that they were dumb. I never understood it and I've moved away, but it seems to be getting worse :(

[fujiyama]

169. Hell

Many of those WITH a college education are surprisingly ignorant as well. There are MANY Bush bots with college degrees.

[dejaboutique]

174. wow that map is cool

interesting that the highest density of B.A.'s are in Montana and Colorado...and overall they seem more educated. I would not have guessed those two but that is interesting.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

161. Wow. I thought you were being fascicious. Too busy not to be stupid?

[KitSileya]

14. Wonderful rant!

I especially liked this part:

"If Newton lived in America today, they would hang him from the nearest tree to disprove the law of gravity. And call it compassionate science…"

LOL!

[brainshrub]

15. The answer to "You get to pick the doctor you want":

If you get robbed, do you want to chose the policeman, or do you want access to good law-enforcement? If your house is burning down, do you want to chose the firemen, or do you want access to a competent fire-department?

Most citizens in countries that have universal health-care can chose their doctor... anyone who tells you otherwise is lieing. But let's pretend for a moment that you haven't been lied to, let's pretend that universal health-care would mean you would have access to good health-care when you needed it, but you couldn't pick your doctor.

The concept of "choice" in health-care is a crock. No-one chooses to be sick. The #1 priority is access to good care, not choice. The current system offers neither, unless you are rich.

Put another way: How many Porches do you own? Imagine that in order to live, you needed to buy two Porches a year. How many years would you be able to get by before your family was bankrupted?

If your LIFE depended on owning a Porche, do you want access to the car or do you want to quibble about the color?

[ghostsofgiants]

50. Thank you!

That bullshit rhetoric about not choosing your own doctor with a universal healthcare system has been one of the most annoying talking points from right-wingers I've ever heard.

[brainshrub]

68. When it comes to the necessities, access is more important than choice.

More important than choosing the topping on your pizza, is access to food. More important than choosing a brand of soda, is access to clean water.

In order to squeeze the most amount of money from the consumer, corporations have turned medical care in this country into a scarce commodity. They have turned life itself into a privilege instead of a right.

[pie]

16. It is almost asthough we live among aliens

There sure are a lot of stupid motherfuckers in this country.

[HughBeaumont]

17. All I got to say is bravo, man.

Living in Duh-High-Ah, I'm surrounded, even in true-blue Northeast, by these very same motherfuckers you speak of.

[dandrhesse]

19. I see more than that operating here

The domination of the MSM by WH propaganda, and a public that gets little else if they are not connected to the INTERNET or know how to use a computer contributes a great deal to this problem.

Some folks do hear conflicting opinions and choose not to believe it, you're right. But if you listen to the other sides arguments, unless you know the truth, they sound compelling. It is only because you know the truth that they sound ridiculous.

The other aspect is a much deeper aspect. The basic issue of trust and good faith. In order for you to accept the scope and magnitude of corruption you have to accept:

The President deliberately lies to Congress and the people all the time for any reason that is convenient for him

Those in power don't care about the greater good of humanity, and they sure don't care whether or not you have health care or die or are maimed as a result of one of their manufactured wars.

Those in power worship the almighty dollar not God Almighty

I know these things to be true. But it is an exceptionally difficult thing for some people to accept. How many people do you know that have kids that are drinking, doing drugs or are sexually active and the parents "don't have a clue"? I know lots of them and it isn't because the truth is not there or the signs or even people directly telling them, it is that they don't want to believe it because that means they have to deal with it.

There are some who will not allow themselves to believe the truth because they simply can not handle it.

It literally is beyond their coping skills to accept that everything they have believed in up to this point, and for some that includes their pastor, neighbors, friends, parents and grandparents is wrong. It is all based on lies and is a house of cards.

I don't have that situation. I am from a very liberal background and my family are all liberals so I easily accept the truth. But that is not true for everyone.

I hope this has explains at least in part why some don't "get it". I'm not excusing them, but merely trying to shed some light. I don't think that the public is stupid. And I don't think that 51% voted for Bush either , but that's another topic.

We just have to keep plugging away and not let the propaganda media convince us that the majority of the people in this country don't get it. The Presidents approval rating wouldn't be tanking if the masses weren't "getting it". We are in the majority my friend and we are gaining on them! Take heart and do not give up!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. You're right, and it reminds me of what Al Franken said about

how conservatives "love their country" like children love their mommy, while liberals love their country like adults love their friends.

People at a certain level of emotional development want to believe that their side is the Good Guys, no matter what.

As I was growing up, it was extremely hard for me to accept that America had ever done anything wrong. In the earlier days of the Vietnam War, when I was an early to middle teenager, I thought the anti-war protestors were "bad" or "crazy," because everyone knew that America was the Good Guys and Communists were the Bad Guys. And that was that.

I began to have doubts as I entered college and encountered people whom I truly respected, professors who were unmistakably intelligent and clear-headed, who opposed the war. If they were against the war, then I had to do some reading and rethink the situation.

It's as difficult to come to grips with the fact that your country has done evil as it is to come to grips with the fact that a beloved family member has done evil.

[dandrhesse]

34. Thanks for joining in. I feel that we are not doing ourselves any favors

by demonetizing our fellow Americans that do not have the emotional maturity to deal with it. My parents opposed the Vietnam war so early on I came to distrust our government and knew that we didn't always do what was best for the greater good.

The same with the thinking in terms of black and white or good and bad. My teenagers think in "gray" because of our attitudes and beliefs and among their peers they take a lot of crap because of their beliefs and their ability to articulately defend their positions.

It is "easier" to say, I'm right and you're wrong end of argument and the reason is because I said so.

This type of thinking that has gotten our country into trouble over the years, demonetizing the enemy even if last week they were our ally.

If we want to solve this we need to practice what we preach. We need to find the common ground and get these folks on board. If we believe that a more peaceful world with respect to other countries is possible then we should begin at home.

Diplomacy is not just for the UN and Heads of State. We need to find a way to connect with people from all angles of this issue, find common ground and build on that, it is the only way to forge a real coalition that will be able to turn the tide.

It's easy to criticize, I do my share of it, but it is difficult to come up with something that will work.

My husband works with a whole group of far right wingers who love Rush Limbaugh and he even trying to talk to them, because they don't hear anything he says about politics.

So how about it, anyone have any constructive suggestions as to how to build a coalition of Americans that want their country back?

[PassingFair]

74. Three Letters For You...

DFA

[dandrhesse]

118. sorry but I don't get it. I'm not being sarcastic I don't know the term

DFA

:blush:

[PassingFair]

128. Democracy for America

Small groups of earnest people all over the country get together once a month and swap stories, bitch, and generally provide for a grassroots underbelly in the dem party. DFA is a spin-off of the Dean for America movement of the last election.
Whilst your local dem groups are loathe to back certain dems in primaries, DFA will support progressives (both monetarily and in shoe leather).
Local groups are available in most areas.
You can go to
www.democracyforamerica.com or
www.dfameetup.com

All good, concerned, folks.

[dandrhesse]

156. Thank you , I am so glad I asked. It is information like this given in

spirit of hope that keeps me visiting the DU!
:yourock:

[PassingFair]

175. Always glad to pass along good info!

Welcome to DU and welcome to DFA!!

[Tomee450]

113. I have no idea how

you reach people who, when presented with the truth reject it and continue to spout the lies they have heard.

[Karenina]

153. You look them in the eye

count 3 beats, then scream, "YOU'RE A STUPID MOTHERFUCKER!!!" :evilgrin:

As I'm disinclined to handle a personal encounter in such a manner, this thread is truly cathartic. Kinda like Primal Scream Therapy :silly:

Too "busy" to get informed about the crumbling precipice we're all on?
TOO BUSY to have a look at the death and destruction being rained down by your gub'mint ON EVERYONE??? YOU INCLUDED??? :nopity::nopity::nopity:

S-T-U-P-I-D M-O-T-H-E-R-F-U-C-K-E-R-S!!! :argh: :argh: :argh:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

36. Great post and thanks for the thoughtful reply

And you are spot on. We can't give up hope. It's places like DU where we can come and get an infusion of it whenever we need to.

:toast:

edited because I'm a lousy typist

[dandrhesse]

38. so true, whenever I'm feeling like it is overwhelmingly hopeless I come

to the DU and get revived. I am so thankful to this community and the lively and honest discussion that takes place!:woohoo:

[leftchick]

49. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE

I believe you just defined it.

[suziedemocrat]

59. You NAILED it!!! The only explaination!

I have been substitute teaching. I had a conversation with a failry intelligent 8th grade science teacher. He complained about how Clinton was such a liar and at least Bush tells the truth. I said the Bush admin lied about the Iraq war when they said Saddam had weapons of mass distruction. He said "I'm not so sure that's ture - I still think they may find them." This was a conversation in late April or early May of 2005!!

Also - I have a very raid republican cousin who is a stockbroker, talking about the difference between conservatives and liberals in the stock market. When I mentioned that Warten Buffet was a Democrat - He said "I think you are wrong about that."

They simply CAN NOT process information that might cause them to doubt what they have always beleived to be true:
Republicans make us Safe.
Republicans make us Rich.
Republicans have better "conservative" values.

FOX doesn't help matters. Many of these people ONLY watch Fox news - and FOX never reports anything that would make these people uncomfortable with their current beliefs.

I think Republicans are bad for the economy, and slowly more and more people will be hurt by the bad economy, even republicans. I think they just might change their politics after they drop off the ledge of economic security.

[Tux]

140. Interesting

I had a debate with my fundie uncle who was upset that I believe in God based on scientific evidence (Deism) while he needs faith and evidence means nothing (Baptist). He kept going on about faith and that all that matters.

What we are dealing with is pure emotional rage. They attach a belief to an emotion to form opinions. No evidence, no thinking, no anything. They felt angry about communism since it promotes the removal of ownership of their stuff, they connect anger to communists and become angry anytime they are mentioned. Try it some time. Same with everything.

Instead of reasoning with them, do what they do: create an emotion that makes them feel good and have them associate an idea to it. They feel good when a someone solves a PC problem. You drop hints you are a liberal and their hate would suffer.

I have no idea why or how they lost reason but we have to appeal to their emotions. Look at how Republicans used lots of banners, lights, colors, sounds, etc at each convention, et al last election.

[dandrhesse]

119. absolutely! And the other theory that comes to mind is Maslows heirarchy

of needs! People just don't get that in general. They ask why the violence in Iraq among the civilian population? The unemployment rate is 70%! They have no electricity that is reliable, no schools, hospitals, police force, we randomly arrest, detain and torture, men, women and children and also bomb the hell out of everything in site.

Now if that were happening right here in our own cities do you think there would be violence, YES!

If you don't have the basics, food, shelter, and clothing you can not think beyond that. So just the fact that we are engaged in a raging debate over issues dealing with moral values tells the world that we are all fat and happy. How insulting to the millions of people around the globe that we have the economic excess that enables us to sit around and type on our computers and comtemplate the woes of the world.

I think that people in general do not realize just how quickly we could be in the same place as the Iraqis. And for some, I fear it will take nearly that for them to be willing to look beyond their own life situation.

[Hoping4Change]

94. Great remarks. The current situation reminds me of a Star Trek episode.

Captain Kirk couldn't be seen even though he was on the bridge because got speeded up. At some point Spock realized that a buzzing he heard was Kirk. My point is that a large majority of people aren't up to speed so progressive voices like those found on DU only sound like buzzing.

ps My comments "great remarks" doesnt really do justice to how great I think all your remarks are through-out the thread:)

[Catch22Dem]

20. Each once in a while a post like this comes along...

A post that reads like it could have come from my own hand. Great stuff, Tom. Nominated.

[Zerex71]

21. I absolutely agree, and wholly despise most of my countrymen for their

willful ignorance and cheerful isolation.

[gulliver]

22. "Are these people trying to be stupid?"

I think so. That makes them more "foolish" or "insane" or "childish" than purely stupid. They aren't completely stupid. Their brains are just off. They want to shout and argue, not reason and plan. And there is a group of assholes in the GOP who want to keep people in that mood, the better to pick their pockets, dirty their air and water, move their jobs out from under them, etc.

Bush is the perfect vehicle for a tantrum of American mental weakness. The people have been thrown off guard by their own childishness.

[Karenina]

155. Willful ignorance.

I tell ya, Gulliver, that's where I wanna do my Cher impersonation, WHACK somebody upside da haid and screech, SNAP OUT OF IT!!!

It's particulary stressful when someone close, who you know in your heart to be a capable human being, does the ostrich number or guzzles the Kool-Aid...

Ignorance can be educated. STUPID is forever. ;-)

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cap]

24. what I think would be good..

is working on framing a message in simple terms that people can understand.

[Finder]

30. You are so right.

The most common response I get from the non political followers is, "does it affect my mortgage?" or "does it change the fact I need to work two jobs to pay the bills?"

The average american wants something tangible. Tax cuts they remember, high gas prices and heating costs they care about, layoffs they care about, etc.

Downing Street memos, Jeff Gannon, Valerie Plame and congressional infighting are boring and not worth their time.

Insulting them only confirms what they hear on talk radio and fox news about the other side.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

31. I'm glad you consider me a "complete ass." I would hate to be

thought of as "half-assed."

It's Saturday morning, I work all week and engage in all the activities that you mention and then some.

Divisive? I posted this on DU, a partisan board with the majority of members leaning farther left than center. DU has never struck me as being populated by moderates. If I wanted to be divisive, I would have posted it on a board populated by both Dem's & Republicans.

Lighten up and have a good weekend.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. This coming from a person who referred to others as being "Stupid....

...M_____"??? Very interesting.

I'm going to remind you that if you want to bring about REAL change you're going to have to reach more than the very, very small percentage of Americans that post on DU. You're going to have to reach a very large majority of Americans and cause them to want to take to the streets to make the change happen. Nothing...NOTHING...else will reverse the crap brought on us by the rightwing NeoCons. And a large block of the people you need to reach are the people you describe as "Stupid M_____".

Maybe you're the one that should lighten up and try using some small portion of your brain to review what you write before you post it.

Have a nice weekend and try not to think about all of those "Stupid M____" that you will unknowingly encounter over the next three days.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

78. I didn't type Stupid M______. I said Stupid Mothetherfuckers

Because there's a lot of Stupid Motherfuckers out there.

[BiggJawn]

33. Hitting too close to home there?

You gotta hand it to Tom... At least he didn't call the "stupid motherfuckers" "Sheeple"...

" Most people are too exhausted to do anything more than go to bed and be ready for the onslaught of the next day. "

Sounds like me. Know why I'm so busy? Because I have to bucket out gallons of the MSM Kool-Aid that half this nation guzzles greedily to find REAL news.

But you forgot a step in there for "most" people, the 3-4 hours of "Must-See Reality Teeeee-Veeeee" that they watch so they'll have something to talk to their friends about the next day.

"Onslaught of the Next Day"...Where'd you get that? "Good Housekeeping" magazine?

[bicentennial_baby]

44. 'zactly

"But you forgot a step in there for "most" people, the 3-4 hours of "Must-See Reality Teeeee-Veeeee" that they watch so they'll have something to talk to their friends about the next day."

Bingo...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. How many hours are spent asleep in front of the tube?

[NuttyFluffers]

148. i'm still trying to figure out the relevance from this statement.

according to the context provided from this little discussion all i get is, "people turn on the tv, but really just so they can close their eyes and fall asleep, before waking up and going finally to bed. they really don't spend 3-4 hours vegging in front of the tube, time which could be better spent keeping up to date with their challenging and ever changing world, because they really have absolutely no time to do so.... so people only turn on tvs so they have some time in their day to close their eyes before going to bed."

i'm still lost, perhaps this isn't what i'm supposed to take from this statement. it comes across as an easily spotted 'jedi mind trick.' perhaps i'm missing something.

[BiggJawn]

75. Yessiree.

Funny how people try to play-off that they watch that shit. Sort of like you caught them playing with themselves, or ran into them around the corner with a cigarette in their face...:7

Let's see now....BBC America? Listen to Shortwave? Surf for News?
Screw that! "Fear Factor"'s coming on! :bounce:

[bicentennial_baby]

82. I know...

but what can we expect when even the Senate wastes our tax dollars passing resolutions to congratulate the winner of Amurikan Idol...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Check my number of posts if you think I actually read anything by....

..."Good Housekeeping". And don't give me any of that "woe is me" "bucket out gallons of the MSM Kool-Aid". Except for a couple of weeks recently where I've had to travel to see my ailing 85 year old father, I contribute a pretty steady number of daily posts to DU. I also have school-age kids, and my wife and I hold down full-time jobs. I think you'll find that most DUers have a very similar mix of duties and responsibilities to those of my wife and I.

But, I know plenty of people that have to work more than one job, and are still falling behind the financial steamroller that the NeoCons have set in motion. Are these the "Stupid M____" to whom the original poster was referring?

I guess my use of such "big" words like "onslaught" keeps me out of the "Stupid M____" category. I'm surprised that anyone on DU would have a problem with the use such "big" words, but have no problem with someone that calls others "Stupid M_____".

[mopaul]

51. sticks and stones, no one called you personally a bad name

i have no problem with so called curse words. words are words, and they cannot harm me

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. IMHO, you don't drop a load on the people that you're going to need....

...to reverse the policies of the NeoCon Reich. Out of 70,000 registered DUers, how many do you think are willing to take to the streets RIGHT NOW in the same way that my generation took to the streets to protest the Vietnam War?

Normally I like what you post, but skip the day-care nursery rhymes...they're very unbecoming of someone who has become a DU icon against the NeoCons.

[mopaul]

62. sorry

[PassingFair]

77. You wake up on the wrong side of the bed today, Media?

You seem a bit testy today.
Sounds like you need a recharge.
Sounds like you need a little nature.
Take a walk in the woods.
Come back.
Don't let the motherfuckers get you down.
Don't let strong words on a message board get you down.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

99. I guess you could say that I'm a little testy today...

...and I'm getting increasingly more testy with each passing day that divisive and crude comments are posted on DU.

No, I don't need a recharge...because the people I'm dealing with provide more than enough fuel for the fire that's growing in my belly.

[NuttyFluffers]

149. so if they are *that* busy, what hope is there to reach them, then?

i think not only have you confused yourself who this original post was talking about, but you've talked yourself into a corner in a fit of rage.

yup, people are busy, some incredibly busy. but they are not *impossibly busy*. not so busy that they *cannot possibly* pay attention to things that *do affect* their lives. because obviously these people out there must know *something* more than work -- because you obviously know them, so somehow they weren't working in a disconnected state *every* waking moment. and if there's space enough for that, and they are tired enough to want a better life, then they have enough time to try to find out what's going on in their world.

you can't base an argument insisting huge swaths of people are in a hopeless situation (re: for them to become informed on their own) and then berate people for not offering hope, candy colored in the only permissable form you allow. you claim they are locked in an impossibly hopeless situation, incapable of the time needed to become aware of what's happening to their lives, but if you believe that then there's nowhere to move from there. it's hopeless and unchangeable.

unless you really don't believe it is hopeless and unchangeable, and then that means that those people's situations can be altered by not only us, but by them. and if so, then a measure of choice must therefore enter the equation. you can't have it both ways. otherwise you'd be asking us to move sisyphus' stone. helping others in hard tasks is one thing; claiming that they are helpless objects of their immobile state and demand we aid in the futile is another.

[BiggJawn]

71. Wellllll....

Hey, sorry if you took what I said as a personal attack. I really wasn't even IMPLYING that YOU were a "stupid M-F", NOR was I questioning your "DU Street Cred".

What I was poo-pooing was your "Hey! Don't call people stupid mother-fuckers! We need their votes next time" POV.

That's annoying. Just like people who tell me "Oh. You're REALLY going to win their Hearts and Minds by calling them 'Sheeple', BigJawnn..." OK, so someone got the impression somewhere that I *WAS* trying to win hearts and minds? Sorry, they're wrong.

And I also fail to see what you are trying to say to me by waving your post count in my face. Go check mine, too. Somewhere upwards of 10 kiloposts, I think. Big Deal. You wanna know what *I* think that's a sign of, personally? I think that shows somebody who Needs a Life, and yes, that probably includes me. Since I'm an empty-nester now, having finished up my parental duties as a CUSTODIAL Single Father, I guess I really DO need a life, since I don't fall into bed exhausted , dreading the "onslaught of the next day". Yep, did what you do with TWO people single-handed. I think you'll find there also a LOT of DUer's who do it all by themselves, too. Not sure what THAT has to do with stupid mother-fuckers, but since you brought the subject up...

[NuttyFluffers]

150. no confusion. pain is needed as much as pleasure.

sometimes people need a helping hand and a pat on the back.
sometimes they need a punch in the face and a swift kick to the ass.
to each a season, turn, turn, turn.

i understand what you are trying to say.

[Karenina]

171. I do wonder what level of pain

will have to be visited upon the dear ol' U.S. of A... :freak:

[NuttyFluffers]

172. well, a good deal has been visited already... and we have 1/2 pissed

i guess bushco has double the amount of suffering left to visit upon "the land of the free" before people really have had enough.

[Tux]

141. Stupid

Is simply not using evidence and information to make decisions. You can have 1 job or 20, the fact you use information separates us from the fundies who run on emotion and nothing else. When people are more concerned about American Idol more than Muslims being pissed off about suspected Koran bashing (reports and evidence isn't conclusive to me) which will put our troops in harm's way, we're dealing with stupid people. What is more important; a show about singers or bringing our fellow Americans home?

[dandrhesse]

41. check out my post above, I agree with you, thanks for another reason!

My kids are now teenagers and thankful that when they were little, Clinton was in office.

I voted for Gore and was never in the other camp. But until I really started looking into it, I had no idea the scope and magnitude of what we are dealing with. Another aspect is fear.
I am a card carrying member of the ACLU, there are a good many people in this country that would be afraid to carry their card these days, and I am ashamed to say, with good reason. There are small business and large corporations that have no qualms about firing people for their political beliefs these days. And the smaller the town you live in the easier it is to intimidate people into keeping their mouths shut.

When I canvassed for Kerry, it was so sad that so many folks, like you said don't have time to "look into anything". And that is another thing that makes me hoppin mad at the right!They count on it. Let's make the average Joe and Jane so miserable and so fearful of losing their jobs and their crappy health care that they don't have time to think, they only have time to survive.

Way below the belt but that's Texas Oil for you, they don't know how to think any other way.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. But only a minority of households have children in them

so while some people may have that as a reason for their lack of time, most don't. For instance, in 2000 31.9 percent of Missouri households were occupied by families with children at home (source (in Google cache).

[Media_Lies_Daily]

57. That may be true in Missouri, but I'd like to see some national stats.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. In the census projections for 2005 from 1996

total households: 108,818,659
family households: 74,732,880
family households with children under 18: 32,699,092
which is 30% of households.

see http://www.census.gov/population/projections/nation/hh-fam/table1n.txt and http://www.census.gov/population/projections/nation/hh-fam/table5n.txt

[wtmusic]

60. Hmm

I'm not sure what's divisive about this.

Problem is, these people vote. And they shouldn't, if they can't take the time to find out what's going on in the world. I agree with Tom that if you are blindly following Bush (or anyone, for that matter), you are pretty fucking stupid. Period. You can't see the forest for the trees or you don't give a shit. No sympathy.

I've had enough of trying to placate these people. Hold them up, shake them, scream in their face. Won't accomplish anything? Not if one person does it. If thousands do you may start to see a change...

Although rants aren't particularly constructive, they draw people together with similar feelings. Nothing divisive about that.

[Straight Shooter]

25. "They make Luddites look like the Manhattan project."

OMG!

:rofl:

[Karenina]

70. Don't be dissin' the Luddites...

They were, in retrospect, 100% correct!

Interesting narrative:

http://www.gober.net/victorian/reports/luddites.html

A veritable font of links ;-) (I recommend checking out Jerry Mander):

http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mryder/itc_data/luddite.html

[SalmonChantedEvening]

27. Running on autopilot is easier.

Safer too. Also less time consuming.

Many know what they are told isn't true, but to think that liberals/dems/moderates/anyone but fearless leader might be right about any of this flies in the face of the basis of them drinking the KoolAid in the first place. That being that we (libs, dems) are born liars and we hate our country, we are to blame for all that is wrong with their lives, and the state of America. To tip that on it's head is to undo the bedrock they stand on.

They accept the lie as being What Governments Do, and that it's done For Their Own Good.

Some simply BELIEVE that W would never do them wrong.


And some are simply the topic of this thread.

[Thtwudbeme]

154. First time I have ever seen you

Gotta tell ya; Greatest screenname EVER on DU. Period.

Kudos!

[SalmonChantedEvening]

157. thank you *blush*

:hi:

[FloridaPat]

32. That would only be 51% of registered voters. Only around 40% of

eligible voters even voted. It's a real sad state of affairs.

[mike_c]

37. sheeple....

Somebody had to say it.

[smoogatz]

39. Great post. Two thoughts.

Going into the election, I couldn't help thinking of it as a gigantic national IQ test. The fact that the election was even close enough to steal means we failed--we are indeed a nation of stupid motherfuckers. What had roughly half the country voted for, after all? Lies, incompetence, astounding fiscal irresponsibility, humongous tax-cuts for the rich and the rest of Bushco's pro-corporate, anti-citizen agenda. Not to mention a whole lot of death--3,000+ dead on 9/11, almost 1700 dead Americans in Iraq, at least 100,000 dead Iraqis. Not to mention thousands of muslims tortured as a matter of US policy. What kind of idiot votes for a guy with a record like that?

Second--that reference to "picking your own doctor" goes all the way back to 1993, when Hillary came within a whisker of getting universal health care for all Americans. What we need to do is nationalize health insurance, not health care. Krugman has pointed out that the current system amounts to an enormous tax on businesses on the one hand, and is incredibly wasteful on the other, as insurance companies devote more and more resources to challenging claims rather than paying them.

[immoderate]

40. Well, it's not new.

H.L. Mencken is credited with saying something like, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public" in the 1930s.

I don't know if it is particularly American, but you get a hint from the commercials that are aimed at Americans. They assume we are stupid and lazy. E.g., "Burn fat while you sleep." Overworked can only partly excuse this.

--IMM

[personman]

42. A nation of Jar Jars...

Jar Jar was an unintelligent creature who allowed a dictator to rise to power via his gullibility.
So lately I've taken to referring to these people as Jar Jars.

-personman

[Jade Fox]

48. Our isolation makes us dense in the U.S....

Everywhere we look we see the reflection of our own interests, delusions,
and self-pity. The rest of the world does not have that priviledge.

I too am getting tired of feeling like I need to aplogize for thinking stupid,
deliberatly uniformed, and reactionary people are stupid, uniformed, and
reactionary. It is the media's fault, but damn: does it occur to these
people inform themselves in some intelligent way?

[leftofthedial]

54. Why do you hate Murkans for their freedom to be stupid motherfuckers?

Besides, Newton *should* be hung from the nearest apple tree because gravity is just a theory and Gawd's holy word doesn't say anything about Him creating gravity.

Our glorious holy stud macho leader is a man of Gawd and has restored morality to Murka and is just doing Gawd's work by bringing the one true religion to those evil non-believer hate-filled evil Muslins. If not in Iraq then where? Indianapolis?

It's people like you and all the other DUmmies constantly pointing out all these meaningless facts instead of becoming part of the solution.


;-) :thumbsup:

[daydreamer]

63. 51% of any nation is stupid

That's why leadership is so important.

[oasis]

64. 99% of the planet said the same thing after the 2004 elections.

:dunce: x 60 million.

[donsu]

65. in re: stupid motherfuckers/TV manipulation/stuffed bears

I've often wondered if the teddy bear madness was a construct. (not just a commercial construct)

In past times stuffed bears were just an occasional choice for a child if at all. then, it seems, everything steamrolled and stuffed bears of all kinds and sizes were everywhere. even on TV and in movies, comics, on clothing, etc.

when someone dies on the road, stuffed bears arrive. some mental health treatment give women stuffed bears as part of the therapy. (I kid you not).

and I look about in wonder as to why people are buying into it?

are stuffed bears big in the UK?

is it part of the dumbing down?

is it a pacifier in the mouth of the citizenry?

have I gone bonkers?

[mopaul]

69. teddy bears, & metallic helium balloons on graves are cool too

with dayglo colors and ribbons billowing in the wind, pinwheels too.

i guess it beats gigantic pyramids, that's the height of grieving.

and yes, you've gone bonkers.

[baldguy]

66. I Fascist America, ignorance is a virtue.

It makes it easier to kill people that way.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire

http://www.internationalist.org/fallujarape0412.html

[Itsthetruth]

67. So Are Anti-War People Who Voted For A Pro-War Candidate (Kerry) Smart?

eom

[sellitman]

73. In the primary....no.

But in the Presidential election we had no better choice or chance.

[mopaul]

72. I don't know Tom, maybe 'stupid' is a bit harsh

motherfuckers ain't though

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

79. LOL... Intellectually Challenged Motherfuckers just doesn't roll off

the tongue quite as well.

[Karenina]

81. America, the land of stupid motherfuckers

works just fine. Stupid Murikkkan motherfuckers who got NO DAMNED SENSE NOR EXCUSE for being so motherfucking STUPID. NO EXCUSE. Done got every advantage in the world. Kinda like their blithering *blivet dauphin.

"We're just SO preoccupied trying to survive..." some whine as your *MIC, emboldened by your entertained-to-death impotence and IN YOUR NAMES, STEAMROLLERS HUMANITY (you know, those "others" around the world who jes' regular folks and be mightily affected by y'all's GIANT SUCKING OF RESOURCES) AND DESTROYS THE PLANET. (Errraaa... depleted uranium is seriously harmful to all sentient beings). :argh: :argh: :argh:

And PLEASE STOP with this "Well I... what did you... victim shit." If you're awake enough to see what's going down and be posting here, then you realize what's coming out of your nation is some SERIOUSLY STUPID, DESTRUCTIVE, DEATH-DEALING, MOTHERFUCKING, DISEASE-CONTAMINATED SHIT your individual efforts to the contrary, notwithstanding. Nobody meant YOU personally. YOU'RE one of the GOOD ONES! :evilgrin:

So, I respectfully request that we embrace each others' rants of outrage and frustration in the spirit in which they are intended.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

83. Yee Haw!

LOL. Sometimes it's good to let the demons out!
:toast:

[Karenina]

92. Demon, indeed!

:toast: You're a naughty one, TYJ. :spank: :spank: :spank:

I be a direct descendant from the Goddess. ;-) We be into life, nurture, sharing, understanding, acceptance, peaceful reconciliation of differences und so weiter und sofort. You hit a button and I am NOT YET finished.

HALLO, KIDLINKS!!!!

I learned everything I need to know in kindergarten.

http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm

American citizens have roots and dear friends ALL OVER THE GLOBE, many of whom are becoming increasingly 'annoyed,' shall we say, at the nassiness yo' gub'mint be spewing and exporting in defense of yo' great nation and all... American support of Galloway's little truth-telling session is not lost on this side of the pond. (Indeed, I LAUGH when I read people's fears about traveling and Yurpeen anti-murikunism). However, your inability within your oh-so-holy and vaunted democracy, to enshine your espoused "values" in your own lives (think: Universal Healthcare) and BEHAVIOURS (think: Guantanamo) has been duly noted. Stupid motherfuckers!

Off topic ;-): Anyone got anything on La Paz, Bolivia later than 5/24?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

108. You go, girl! and re: La Paz...

La Fiesta del Señor Jesús del Gran Poder

Protestors have agreed to call a temporary halt to their demonstrations demanding a larger state role in the country's gas industry to observe the annual celebrations of La Fiesta del Señor Jesús del Gran Poder, a huge religious event in La Paz.
Bolivia admiral denies coup plan (BBC News) as "road blocks cut La Paz off from the rest of the country and the city itself was again brought to a standstill by thousands of demonstrators demanding the nationalisation of the energy industry."
(from today)

[Karenina]

110. Thanks for that, Sweetiekins!

:toast: Searched earlier and couldn't find squat. I hate when that happens!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

122. "We're so preooccupied trying to survive.."

Oh yes, I heard a variation on that from college students when I was teaching. I was asking them why they didn't attend the foreign film series that was shown during January Term. (The only people who went were faculty, students who were required to be there, and a few townspeople).

The most common excuse was, "We lead such stressful lives that when we go to the movies, we just want to be entertained."

Stressful lives! This from affluent eighteen-year-olds who grew up in the suburbs and never lacked for anything. These were the students, who when asked, as part of the interview for going on study tours, "What is the most stressful thing that ever happened to you and how did you handle it?" would say, "I don't know. Starting college, I guess."

One of the colleges where I taught sponsored a program where foreign students were given money to put on a dinner made up of foods from their homelands. The first 30 members of the college community who signed up could get a free Indonesian or Guatemalan or Japanese or West African meal cooked by students from those countries. Do you know who went to these well-publicized events? Faculty and other foreign students. At none of these dinners (capacity 30) did I see more than two American students.

After a few years, I could interpret their attitude only as willful ignorance, an attitude that one of my former employers characterized as, "Dumb... and PROUD of it."

I recommend a book called Coming Home Crazy by a Minnesota writer named Bill Holm. It's about his time teadching English at a university in China, where the students were so eager to learn that they'd follow him home, wanting to talk more about the literature they were studying. He then came home to teach in a Minnesota state college, where he heard things like, "Do we have to read the whole book?"

I don't think Americans are inherently stupid, at least not more so than any other nationality, but our mass media have deliberately dumbed people down. They serve up increasingly stupid programs on the excuse that "this is what people want." Hmm, I missed the mass demonstrations in the streets demanding WWF wrestlilng and all those reality shows.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

125. Well said, Lydia.

"Dumb... and PROUD of it."

Boy, that seems to hit several nails on the head.

[expatriate]

135. Reminds me of when my father was still teaching

at a university in the south. Over the years, the intellectual curiosity of his students went down markedly (from 1964 until he reitred in 1989).

At one time, when he outlined the coursework for the semester and told his students what they would be doing in each class, he would be deluged with pertinent questions about the upcoming work, what would be required, what extra-credit projects would be accepted, what his office hours were in case someone had a question, what careers might be open in his field, etc. This was in the 1960's. By 1989, after doing his "beginning of the semester" spiel, he would only be asked ONE question by the class. Only one.

"Is the final exam cumulative?"

In other words, "do I have to bother to remember anything from before the midterm exam?"

Between that and the students who would skip class all through the semester and then show up the day before the final asking, "Uh, like, what do I have to do to, um, like, pass this class, man?" he finally started to call the students "the enemy". And retired early.

At a time in history when more information is more easily accessible than at any other time, people are appallingly dumb and complacent, and absolutely hooked on garbagey entertainment.

[progressive_realist]

136. "Do we have to read the whole book?"

lol

:rofl:

[Tux]

146. Can't make it up

I took a physiological psychology class at EMU (I got an A and working in the professor's lab who was also dept head). A girl decided that she didn't need to buy the book for the class since she could just take notes. It worked for a couple semesters before so why not now? Prof. Resuniak (can't spell it) taught the class in the same manner he did the graduate level class. She failed and was upset that work was required. Spoiled middle class kid. I was middle class but spoiled? When dad's union is on strike, mom needs medications and treatments for 3 strokes, I didn't worry about fashion and sports.

[dogday]

76. As long as it does not affect them and their reality, they will continue

to be unaware of the truth. To them, we look like a bunch of crackpots with conspiracy theories. It has not touched their lives but when it does, it will be too late to do anything about it and all they will be able to say is I wished I had listed to those crackpots..

[Catherine Vincent]

80. This newspaper cover says it all:

[Deja Q]

84. How about the COMPETENCY OF THE DOCTORS WE PICK.

What a fucking moron.

After being told by many that my condition was just anxiety, you can imaging how I felt upon getting the results of the MRI... those fucking quacks, had I listened and obeyed, wouldn't have been any the wiser and I'd have ended up paralyzed or dead. x(

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Bill Maher said

"I don't hate America, I am embarrassed by the cretins who have taken it over"

[Gyre]

87. Great quote!

Thx.

[Octafish]

86. Orwell said Newspeak was devised to stop people from thinking.

A Democracy Can Die of Too Many Lies

by Bill Moyers

EXCERPT...

This is always hard to do, but it has never been harder than today. Without a trace of irony, the powers-that-be have appropriated the newspeak vernacular of George Orwell's 1984. They give us a program vowing "No Child Left Behind" while cutting funds for educating disadvantaged kids. They give us legislation cheerily calling for "Clear Skies" and "Healthy Forests" that give us neither. And that's just for starters.

In Orwell's 1984, the character Syme, one of the writers of that totalitarian society's dictionary, explains to the protagonist Winston, "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought?" "Has it ever occurred to you, Winston, that by the year 2050, at the very latest, not a single human being will be alive who could understand such a conversation as we are having now? The whole climate of thought," he said, "will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking – not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

An unconscious people, an indoctrinated people, a people fed only on partisan information and opinions that confirm their own bias, a people made morbidly obese in mind and spirit by the junk food of propaganda, is less inclined to put up a fight, to ask questions and be skeptical. That kind of orthodoxy can kill a democracy – or worse.

CONTINUED...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/moyers1.html

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

88. I saw part of this on CSpan. Powerful stuff. I especially liked

"The more compelling our journalism, the angrier the radical right of the Republican Party became. That's because the one thing they loathe more than liberals is the truth. And the quickest way to be damned by them as liberal is to tell the truth."

[Hoping4Change]

96. Great quote. Thanks much octofish.

[noiretextatique]

91. indeed

the plain, ugly, sad truth of the matter.

[Guaranteed]

95. I wholeheartedly agree.

That's exactly what they are, with some causing factors and exceptions. The end result is the same, though.

[PowerToThePeople]

97. Universally Stupid Asswipes n/t

[Puzzler]

101. The answer to "You get to pick the doctor you want":

Yes... I've heard this from American tourists up in Canada. Many (or most) of them seem to think that we have no choice of doctors in our "socialized" medical system. There is no other way to answer this, other to say that this is completely false.

In Canada we can go to any doctor we want. The only thing that may restrict us, would be how booked up an individual doctor may be. There simply is no system whatever to channel us to particular groups of doctors... other than geography. I mean, I'm not likely to want to see a doctor hundreds of miles away, when there are others in my city.

The bottom line is that:

- In the US you cannot pick the doctor you want.

- In Canada you can.

So the whole statement is more than just false, it is a deliberate lie!!!



-P

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

103. *sigh* Here, the idea of our going to a "socialized" medical system

smacks of out and out Socialism!!!! Which rhymes with Communism!!! Which starts with a C
That rhymes with D
and that stands for Dumbya...

Seriously, so many Luddites here have been brainwashed to the point that they will gladly pay $5000 a year for medical insurance that won't cover many of the illnesses that would be unfordable to anyone except the top few percentiles of the economic ladder.

This nation is now running on the precept keeping the shareholders well heeled even though fewer and fewer people can actually afford to be a shareholder of any stock whatsoever.

Cheers!

[Karenina]

106. Stop misrepresenting Luddites.

The stupid motherfuckers are NOT Luddites, nor were the original Luddites stupid motherfuckers. They, in fact, realized that all the consolidationg technology of the day was destroying their way of life and tried to do something about it. Today's American stupid motherfuckers EMBRACE the technologies that are doing us all in! Man, those touch screens are sure the cat's meow. Foolproof too!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

109. History has been unkind to the Luddites

especially in the way their nom has been transfered into a noun which denotes an individual who is against technological change. Luddite comes from Englishman Ned Lud, who rose up against his employer in the late 1700s. Subsequently, "Luddites" emerged in other companies to protest and even destroy new machinery that would put them out of a job. A neo-Luddite is a Luddite in the Internet age.

C'est la vie.

:toast:

[PowerToThePeople]

105. Not sure what you mean here.

If you think I was dogging on universal healthcare, that is a comepletely wrong take on my post. Take a look at my sig, I am a socialist at heart. What my post was saying is that most of us amerikan's are as stupid and ignorant as a people can be.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

123. Also, I think the insurance companies and their shills

have purposely conflated the Canadian and British systems (where one is assigned to a local GP, as I understand it), and the average ignorant American thinks that Canadians don't get to choose their own doctors.

[Puzzler]

102. The answer to "You get to pick the doctor you want":

Yes... I've heard this from American tourists up in Canada. Many (or most) of them seem to think that we have no choice of doctors in our "socialized" medical system. There is no other way to answer this, other to say that this is completely false.

In Canada we can go to any doctor we want. The only thing that may restrict us, would be how booked up an individual doctor may be. There simply is no system whatever to channel us to particular groups of doctors... other than geography. I mean, I'm not likely to want to see a doctor hundreds of miles away, when there are others in my city.

The bottom line is that:

- In the US you cannot pick the doctor you want.

- In Canada you can.

So the whole statement is more than just false, it is a deliberate lie!!!



-P

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

112. Darn, ya' got me... I'm one of those people living in the never-never

land of rural Alabama. There's a lot of us stupid rednecks out here who try to squeak by and post something subversive every now and then. You must know how tempting it must be to try and sound intelligent when you haven't a clue.

But dog gone it, you caught us again, you sly dog. I thought I got this one by the DU thought police, but you and another poster were really on your game today. Congratulations, you exposed me for what I am, a phony with only 9K posts. I was a phony when I protested against Nixon and the Viet Nam war as well. I was a phony when I marched for civil rights in Alabama as well.

I'm a redneck with an attitude at the moment and I'll call these cocksuckers the way I see them.

As to Stupid Motherfuckers?

If the shoe fits.

[CanSocDem]

114. It's really not my place to criticize...

...being Canadian and all, but I heard something on backgroundTV the other night that made me think of Americans.

Someone said "...makes behaving stupidly seem like a virtue."

I worry that Americans generally, aren't sufficiently outraged at their (and our) loss of human rights of which HEALTH, rather than "medical care" is but one fundamental right that is being bought and sold. Dis-ease isn't 'natural' or God's punishment....

How pervasive is a bad diet in America....????

[Fly by night]

160. Well, you got yours through, but I see that my post was removed.

But I am glad you got to read it before it was censored. (I don't blame the moderator for doing that. Any time I read something by someone ostensibly on my side of the political divide calling the American voters "stupid motherfuckers" when they voted to elect our guys (and had their votes switched or erased), it gets my blood boiling and my invective spewing on the screen. Plus, I chose other images and words besides "motherfucker" and "cocksucker" to make my point to you. My mistake. I'm better now.)

Your post might make you feel better and might draw similarly self-assurance-challenged posters to post their agreement here. But I would think that, living in rural Alabama, you wouldn't need a whole lot to feel superior to your neighbors to begin with.

(Couldn't help that last comment. As an 8th generation Mississippian who was working for civil rights there in 1964 as a 14 year old and someone who has lived deep in a southern Tennessee holler for four decades surrounded by credential-less but very astute neighbors for whom "motherfucker" is an unfamiliar but nonetheless nauseating term, we give thanks regularly for Alabama so we can feel superior too.)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

163. "living in rural Alabama, you wouldn't need a whole lot to feel superior"

Christ, you must be one smart motherfucker.

I don't feel superior to my neighbors.

You say: "we give thanks regularly for Alabama so we can feel superior too."

Frankly, I feel lucky I don't need to feel supeior to anyone or any state. We used to call that bigoted.

[Fly by night]

168. I'm Sorry -- I thought you would recognize sarcasm when you saw it...

... or am I mistaking you for someone else who started this thread: "America: the land of stupid motherfuckers"? Nothing bigoted or superior about that sentiment, now is there? (Note: sarcasm again.)

Since you didn't appear to recognize sarcasm (and your original thread was anything but), I am glad that my comments got a rise out of you -- just as your thread positioning yourself as superior to all Americans, not just Alabamians, got a rise out of me (unfortunately one that was a bit too blunt to be allowed to remain here in a thread filled with "motherfucker" and cocksucker" comments.) I just hope that we're only talking to each other this morning and that your words won't make it out to a broader audience and used to illustrate why we Democrats just don't get it, with our misplaced air of superiority over the rest of the country. See, I still believe that "our" values represent the majority values in this country, and that this country is not populated by stupid people, except maybe one or two (well, one) in rural Alabama who doesn't seem to have learned much from his neighbors, even after all these years.

Yes, I am pretty intelligent (and probably more than a little overeducated, with graduate training and/or degrees from Vanderbilt, Texas, Stanford and Berkeley). But, believe me, I enjoy the company of hardworking country people much more than the effete elite. Over the years, I've been taught (by Indian people from seven tribes and by my good Tennessee backwoods neighbors) not to wear my education or intelligence on my sleeve, or to use them to denigrate other people simply because I'm the one who doesn't understand what's going on at the moment (as in your case, with the theft of our political system and the rape of our real American values not appearing obvious to you.)

Of course, I may be just whistling in the wind. You can always tell a smartass -- you just can't tell them much. And by the way, do you know any other slur besides "motherfuckers"? If you have a compulsive need to be vulgar, how about broadening your vocabulary? After all "consistency (and vulgarity) is the hobgoblin of little ...".

One last point: Some of my best friends and family members are Alabamians. They just have their egos in check, their minds in gear and their mouths in neutral. I hope to keep learning from them every day to base my own self-worth on what I do for others and who I am at heart, not on how hard I work to position myself above others, here and elsewhere.

Now the hayfields are calling. Hopefully, we'll get rain this evening -- we can sure use it. Time for cooler heads to continue this thread. As for me, the zen of riding a tractor around in hayfield circles awaits. Thank heaven for that and for my very intelligent and mother-respecting neighbors, who taught me what real self-worth looks (and sounds) like. Peace, out.

[Karenina]

170. Well then, Nase hoch!

Denglische Meinung. ;-)

[Tux]

177. Yeah

misplaced air of superiority
Goes for both sides.

Some of my best friends and family members are Alabamians.
My racist aunt says that before launching nigger jokes.

Yes, I am pretty intelligent (and probably more than a little overeducated, with graduate training and/or degrees from Vanderbilt, Texas, Stanford and Berkeley)
Now the hayfields are calling.
Graduate training and/or degrees and the hayfields are calling? Unless it's in agricultural science, your major is as worthless as mine to be worrying about hayfields. I'd rather do tech-support for fools that can't tell the difference between a Microsoft Windows CD and a Microsoft Office CD.

You said that we shouldn't position ourselves to be supior to others yet you positioned yourself to be superior to those who attended college and have successful jobs. Bot sides believe they are superior but one thing is certain: critical thinking is at it's all time low in this nation.

[Fly by night]

185. An attempt at a reply (read s-l-o-w-l-y now)

"Some of my best friends and family members are Alabamians.
My racist aunt says that before launching nigger jokes."

Though I do have friends and a sister in Alabama, that phrase was used tongue-in-cheek. Slipped right past you, did it? As for me, the word 'nigger' would apply to my grand god-daughter in your aunt's world, so I try not to use it anymore than I use 'motherfucker'.

"Graduate training and/or degrees and the hayfields are calling? Unless it's in agricultural science, your major is as worthless as mine to be worrying about hayfields."

Some of us can multi-task and are happier for it. Some of us enjoy hard work, and don't believe it is beneath us. Besides being a public health epidemiologist with projects underway in a number of states (and besides having consulted with a half-dozen state legislatures and having had my work used in three other countries this year), I ALSO enjoy country living and the work that comes with owning a 190 acre farm. (And I also enjoy pursuing election reform work here in the Orange State, because it is more important than most other things any of us are doing at the moment.) What, are the (admittedly) over-educated incapable of doing a hard day's physical labor? My farm labor isn't for the cameras (a la Bushitler). When the hayfields need cutting, I am glad I have the skill (and lack your attitude) to be able to get the work done. And I am thankful I was able to listen to my country neighbors long enough to be able to pick up that skill. Jimmy Carter (the nuclear physicist/nail-banger for the homeless) is my role model -- who is yours? Is Habitat for Humanity 'beneath' Carter? Why don't you ask him yourself?

"You said that we shouldn't position ourselves to be supior (sic) to others yet you positioned yourself to be superior to those who attended college and have successful jobs. Bot (sic) sides believe they are superior but one thing is certain: critical thinking is at it's (sic) all time low in this nation."

I wasn't positioning myself as above college (or graduate school) educated people (after all, I don't hate myself) -- I just said that I enjoyed the company of country people much more than the "effete elite". That latter subgroup doesn't include all educated people -- just those who want to call all Americans "stupid motherfuckers".

And at the risk of sounding effete or condescending, the "check spelling" button is on the bottom left of the post box. Just a suggestion -- hope I din't offend ya. Peace out. (Say "hi" to your aunt, but keep her away from my grand god-daughter.)

[Singular73]

116. Red States are

Red states are socially homogenous. These people's world view extends nothing beyond where the next NASCAR rallies will be, and who is the best-diddly-yest Christian on the block, while they are banging their neighbors wife and cheating on their taxes meanwhile.

They distrust minorities (its their country, minorities are just guests), and basically NEED something to hate, so they can feel better about their own pathetic existance.

[yardwork]

117. Great rant! Do it again!

Best bumper sticker I've seen lately -

"These colors don't run.....the world."

[Zhade]

120. I replied to a guy on another thread who STILL supports the war.

So hey, yo, your thread is right on target.

[mopaul]

121. kick for the stupid motherfuckers

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

127. Love that graphic.... And, hey, it's kind of cathartic like the line from

Network "I'm not gonna take it any more!"

Wouldn't you love to be able to just stand up during one of the staged Bush love fests and scream in your best Sam Kennison voice: "YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!"

[La Coliniere]

124. Excellent Rant

Yep, you gotta point. A Saturday night Malloy type vibe.
Kick

[Orsino]

126. We want to enjoy the fruits of a global economy...

...in which we are top dog, without doing our homework so that we *stay* top dog, or without learning not to step on toes. We may not be stupid, but we are lazy and willfully ignorant--and that will have the same result.

[lectrobyte]

129. Yeah, that about nails it.

PS: Listening to this song has helped me stay somewhat saner than I thought I might have

http://bigego.com/WTFMFWTFAYT.mp3

[NuttyFluffers]

151. but i don't think we should change horses midstream...

even if the horse is on fire, and the stream is made of gasoline...

classic. thanks!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

164. Absolutely fantastic!

Nails it.

[sintax]

130. A Simple Truth

And many feel they are informed, that's the dangerous part. It's a deep psychosis you are dealing with here.

"That we are being propelled in the direction of Brave New World is obvious. But no less obvious is the fact that we can, if we so desire, refuse to co-operate with the blind forces that are propelling us.

For the moment, however, the wish to resist does not seem to be very strong or very widespread."

-- Aldous Huxley

[mitchum]

131. And that's why I DO hate America

[AuntiBush]

132. Same here but remember, many votes were stolen or tossed.

After much research and reading, especially on the last election it's obvious the "majority" of Americans did in fact "not" vote for Bush. So, we're not all stupid.

But know what you mean about those SUV folks; always 1 person driving it w/those ribbons. And, they're rude, arrogant but bet they'd never send their kids to war.

Hypocrites, everyone of them. Bet they were picked-on as kids. Bullies as adults w/a common theme: Fearless "W" their leader. So much nicer then being just that - nice!

[magellan]

147. Hey, don't pick on the picked-on

Just from reading their violence-ridden posts on the web, I think these stupid MF'ers were the bullies, not the picked-on kids. Every Repuke I know, family-wise, was always the one giving orders and belittling everyone else. (And besides, I was picked on in school, and I came away from it with a greater sense of compassion for others...After all, I know what it feels like! Who'd want to do that to someone else?)

I've heard Rove was picked on as a kid. His character suggests he's one of those rare individuals who deserved it. :evilgrin:

[RobbinsdaleDem]

134. I agree.

As much as I would like to think of Bush supporters as simply uninformed, I cannot think of them as anything other than just plain stupid. I despise those damned little W stickers I see on vehicles, and I find myself loathing people I don't even know. My daughter is a college student who is a liberal like I am, but many of her friends and acquaintances at school are Republicans. I don't know how she can stand to associate with them. And, of course, none of these young gung-ho Republicans are rushing to the recruiting office to sign up for this disastrous Iraq invasion. As things stand right now, I don't think I could be on friendly terms with any Bush supporter.

[DemReadingDU]

158. My spouse feels exactly the same

He doesn't even go to Friday Happy Hour anymore because of the Bush supporters. He doesn't want to be around anyone Republican.

[LuPeRcALiO]

162. Madison Ave + Wall St + 1600 Pennsylvania Ave =

scientifically engineered pandering to the basest instincts, selling terrible policies like they were bad cars.

It's the Harvard MBA way!

[Karenina]

166. W-A-Y B-A-C-K in the "hippie days,"

down on the Lower East Side, guzzling flavored vodka with some student dissidents from the U.S.S.R. I was told, "America needn't worry about the U.S.S.R. Harvard Business School will destroy her all by itself. :toast:

[LuPeRcALiO]

167. LOL

Marx is right again!

[Carolab]

142. The citizens of aMErica. n/t

[Swamp Rat]

143. "Surrender monkeys" and 'dictater' chimps.

"America, the land of stupid motherfuckers." - The title alone kept making me crack up so I just had to post something. :D

[WilliamPitt]

152. Recommended

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

165. Thanks, Will!

:toast:

[progressivebydesign]

173. I hear ya...

I had to pass by a well coiffed golf attired couple screaming at a hapless Libertarian who was handing out anti-Bush materials. They kept yelling that SOcial Security was welfare, and "YOU JUST HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF!!!" I did find it amusing that these same types write to the paper complaining about the Libertarians and accusing them of being "liberals" because they are against Bush.

So.. I walk by this scene and say to the woman, in passing, "let me guess.. you're republican?" She retorted sharply and proudly, "YES! We are, and YOU HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF, it's NOT the government's job". I just looked at her and laughed... shook my head.. as though she was an idiot.

[Just Me]

176. Harsh. But, I'd be lying if I said I haven't had the same thoughts myself

Most of the time, people seem to be playing a game of pretend: pretend like it's not happening, like it's not real, and everything feels so much better.

I hate it.

It's so surreal sometimes, like,...when you're watching a movie and know what's going to happen,...you can do absolutely nothing to stop the character in that movie from doing something stupid,...you have to sit there and watch the worst outcome.

[Vektor]

178. Too kind...but pretty damn accurate.

A few of them are starting to wake up, but way too many of them are still drowning in a sea of Kool-Aid.

[dethl]

179. Ignorance is a powerful weapon

Sadly, the republicans have learned to wield it and use it to their advantage. The important information that is put out there is washed away in a sea of irrelevancy. The sheeple don't seem to care about anything other than the crap the MSM feeds them, like American Idol and the MJ case.

I wish the uninformed masses would wake up out of their dream and realize the true nightmare they live in.

[OETKB]

180. Whoa

You happen to be right, but it will only sell among the converted. There has to be a way to sell what you are proposing to those who still linger with a "cold war" mentality. They do not accept any collective approach to our problems. As soon as this is mentioned, you are a communist. What needs to be pointed out as you have so ably done is that their life is being dictated to, by a faceless entity that takes no personal responsibity for the services they offer(An HMO is not a person). Worse it is being motivated by making profit rather than delivering a product everyone needs at reasonable cost and quality. I am a member of PNHP, an organization trying to educate the public on single-payer health plan(<pnhp.org>), but basically it has been catch as catch can. There is no unified action plan to pull constituencies together to put pressure on state or federal legislatures. This organization was recently responsible for the study on bankrupcy due to health costs as a major factor(50%). It has generated little immediate traction.

Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade. Our corporations and their tied in institutions(large insurance companies) are the communists. They dictate who, what, and where we use the services they offer, not the other way around, coming from the public. There is insufficient influence from the general public. We are poorly organized. Our problem is we do not want to become what we abhor and so we head off in a million or more directios rejecting what we need. So we are in a building phase. We must recognize those parts of our society that lend themselves to governmental payment with proper oversight and preservation of independence of those working and receiving services in the system. We must compromise, but work in the framework that we want to improve our individual and collective survival. This is a mean trick. I haven't yet seen any popular movement that is trying to pull this off.

I also find that we are lacking the proper leadership or we tend to eat our young because they are not the perfection we seek. If someone is intelligent, experienced, willing to listen, and understands our society rises and falls on our mutual survival, they should get our support. We can argue nuance later. In Vermont Dr. Debbie Richter(a member of PNHP0) and Cornelius Hogan(a Republican businessman) have joined forces to try to bring a single-payer plan to that state. They are beginning to have some success. DUers in that state, if so inclined, can lend their support. I live in Massacchsetts and universal health care is in the legislature. The bill we support is S755 and we certainly could use help in bringing this to reality. Mass DUers can contact their reps and senators in the state legislature <mass.gov>.

Mr. Kerry lost because he did not articulate this societal sense well. He did not come across as someone who would be a leader for all the people. Killing terrorists better than the other guy, using the same systems that are causing our problems, and not reaching out to disenfranchised citizens in language they could understand made the last contest too close. Even if it was stolen, again, it should not have been that narrow a victory considering what the other side was offering. We need to communicate more effectively that our economics and societal rules should be directed towards everyone's improved survival, not a chosen few.

I, myself, was thinking of bringing the message of universal health care to an evengelical group calling it "The devil in the details" using the Mark Twain device to get people to realize they are being silently manipulated in the wrong direction. If I am successful I will write about it here again. We have to start reaching out somewhere. It means all of us who want change will have to become activists by talking to those who are out of power but sadly believe their pot of gold is just around the corner in our present system. Wish me luck.

[OETKB]

181. Whoa

You happen to be right, but it will only sell among the converted. There has to be a way to sell what you are proposing to those who still linger with a "cold war" mentality. They do not accept any collective approach to our problems. As soon as this is mentioned, you are a communist. What needs to be pointed out as you have so ably done is that their life is being dictated to, by a faceless entity that takes no personal responsibity for the services they offer(An HMO is not a person). Worse it is being motivated by making profit rather than delivering a product everyone needs at reasonable cost and quality. I am a member of PNHP, an organization trying to educate the public on single-payer health plan(<pnhp.org>), but basically it has been catch as catch can. There is no unified action plan to pull constituencies together to put pressure on state or federal legislatures. This organization was recently responsible for the study on bankrupcy due to health costs as a major factor(50%). It has generated little immediate traction.

Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade. Our corporations and their tied in institutions(large insurance companies) are the communists. They dictate who, what, and where we use the services they offer, not the other way around, coming from the public. There is insufficient influence from the general public. We are poorly organized. Our problem is we do not want to become what we abhor and so we head off in a million or more directios rejecting what we need. So we are in a building phase. We must recognize those parts of our society that lend themselves to governmental payment with proper oversight and preservation of independence of those working and receiving services in the system. We must compromise, but work in the framework that we want to improve our individual and collective survival. This is a mean trick. I haven't yet seen any popular movement that is trying to pull this off.

I also find that we are lacking the proper leadership or we tend to eat our young because they are not the perfection we seek. If someone is intelligent, experienced, willing to listen, and understands our society rises and falls on our mutual survival, they should get our support. We can argue nuance later. In Vermont Dr. Debbie Richter(a member of PNHP0) and Cornelius Hogan(a Republican businessman) have joined forces to try to bring a single-payer plan to that state. They are beginning to have some success. DUers in that state, if so inclined, can lend their support. I live in Massacchsetts and universal health care is in the legislature. The bill we support is S755 and we certainly could use help in bringing this to reality. Mass DUers can contact their reps and senators in the state legislature <mass.gov>.

Mr. Kerry lost because he did not articulate this societal sense well. He did not come across as someone who would be a leader for all the people. Killing terrorists better than the other guy, using the same systems that are causing our problems, and not reaching out to disenfranchised citizens in language they could understand made the last contest too close. Even if it was stolen, again, it should not have been that narrow a victory considering what the other side was offering. We need to communicate more effectively that our economics and societal rules should be directed towards everyone's improved survival, not a chosen few.

I, myself, was thinking of bringing the message of universal health care to an evengelical group calling it "The devil in the details" using the Mark Twain device to get people to realize they are being silently manipulated in the wrong direction. If I am successful I will write about it here again. We have to start reaching out somewhere. It means all of us who want change will have to become activists by talking to those who are out of power but sadly believe their pot of gold is just around the corner in our present system. Wish me luck.

[OETKB]

182. Whoa

You happen to be right, but it will only sell among the converted. There has to be a way to sell what you are proposing to those who still linger with a "cold war" mentality. They do not accept any collective approach to our problems. As soon as this is mentioned, you are a communist. What needs to be pointed out as you have so ably done is that their life is being dictated to, by a faceless entity that takes no personal responsibity for the services they offer(An HMO is not a person). Worse it is being motivated by making profit rather than delivering a product everyone needs at reasonable cost and quality. I am a member of PNHP, an organization trying to educate the public on single-payer health plan(<pnhp.org>), but basically it has been catch as catch can. There is no unified action plan to pull constituencies together to put pressure on state or federal legislatures. This organization was recently responsible for the study on bankrupcy due to health costs as a major factor(50%). It has generated little immediate traction.

Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade. Our corporations and their tied in institutions(large insurance companies) are the communists. They dictate who, what, and where we use the services they offer, not the other way around, coming from the public. There is insufficient influence from the general public. We are poorly organized. Our problem is we do not want to become what we abhor and so we head off in a million or more directios rejecting what we need. So we are in a building phase. We must recognize those parts of our society that lend themselves to governmental payment with proper oversight and preservation of independence of those working and receiving services in the system. We must compromise, but work in the framework that we want to improve our individual and collective survival. This is a mean trick. I haven't yet seen any popular movement that is trying to pull this off.

I also find that we are lacking the proper leadership or we tend to eat our young because they are not the perfection we seek. If someone is intelligent, experienced, willing to listen, and understands our society rises and falls on our mutual survival, they should get our support. We can argue nuance later. In Vermont Dr. Debbie Richter(a member of PNHP0) and Cornelius Hogan(a Republican businessman) have joined forces to try to bring a single-payer plan to that state. They are beginning to have some success. DUers in that state, if so inclined, can lend their support. I live in Massacchsetts and universal health care is in the legislature. The bill we support is S755 and we certainly could use help in bringing this to reality. Mass DUers can contact their reps and senators in the state legislature <mass.gov>.

Mr. Kerry lost because he did not articulate this societal sense well. He did not come across as someone who would be a leader for all the people. Killing terrorists better than the other guy, using the same systems that are causing our problems, and not reaching out to disenfranchised citizens in language they could understand made the last contest too close. Even if it was stolen, again, it should not have been that narrow a victory considering what the other side was offering. We need to communicate more effectively that our economics and societal rules should be directed towards everyone's improved survival, not a chosen few.

I, myself, was thinking of bringing the message of universal health care to an evengelical group calling it "The devil in the details" using the Mark Twain device to get people to realize they are being silently manipulated in the wrong direction. If I am successful I will write about it here again. We have to start reaching out somewhere. It means all of us who want change will have to become activists by talking to those who are out of power but sadly believe their pot of gold is just around the corner in our present system. Wish me luck.

[OETKB]

183. Whoa

You happen to be right, but it will only sell among the converted. There has to be a way to sell what you are proposing to those who still linger with a "cold war" mentality. They do not accept any collective approach to our problems. As soon as this is mentioned, you are a communist. What needs to be pointed out as you have so ably done is that their life is being dictated to, by a faceless entity that takes no personal responsibity for the services they offer(An HMO is not a person). Worse it is being motivated by making profit rather than delivering a product everyone needs at reasonable cost and quality. I am a member of PNHP, an organization trying to educate the public on single-payer health plan(<pnhp.org>), but basically it has been catch as catch can. There is no unified action plan to pull constituencies together to put pressure on state or federal legislatures. This organization was recently responsible for the study on bankrupcy due to health costs as a major factor(50%). It has generated little immediate traction.

Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade. Our corporations and their tied in institutions(large insurance companies) are the communists. They dictate who, what, and where we use the services they offer, not the other way around, coming from the public. There is insufficient influence from the general public. We are poorly organized. Our problem is we do not want to become what we abhor and so we head off in a million or more directios rejecting what we need. So we are in a building phase. We must recognize those parts of our society that lend themselves to governmental payment with proper oversight and preservation of independence of those working and receiving services in the system. We must compromise, but work in the framework that we want to improve our individual and collective survival. This is a mean trick. I haven't yet seen any popular movement that is trying to pull this off.

I also find that we are lacking the proper leadership or we tend to eat our young because they are not the perfection we seek. If someone is intelligent, experienced, willing to listen, and understands our society rises and falls on our mutual survival, they should get our support. We can argue nuance later. In Vermont Dr. Debbie Richter(a member of PNHP0) and Cornelius Hogan(a Republican businessman) have joined forces to try to bring a single-payer plan to that state. They are beginning to have some success. DUers in that state, if so inclined, can lend their support. I live in Massacchsetts and universal health care is in the legislature. The bill we support is S755 and we certainly could use help in bringing this to reality. Mass DUers can contact their reps and senators in the state legislature <mass.gov>.

Mr. Kerry lost because he did not articulate this societal sense well. He did not come across as someone who would be a leader for all the people. Killing terrorists better than the other guy, using the same systems that are causing our problems, and not reaching out to disenfranchised citizens in language they could understand made the last contest too close. Even if it was stolen, again, it should not have been that narrow a victory considering what the other side was offering. We need to communicate more effectively that our economics and societal rules should be directed towards everyone's improved survival, not a chosen few.

I, myself, was thinking of bringing the message of universal health care to an evengelical group calling it "The devil in the details" using the Mark Twain device to get people to realize they are being silently manipulated in the wrong direction. If I am successful I will write about it here again. We have to start reaching out somewhere. It means all of us who want change will have to become activists by talking to those who are out of power but sadly believe their pot of gold is just around the corner in our present system. Wish me luck.

[OETKB]

184. Whoa

You happen to be right, but it will only sell among the converted. There has to be a way to sell what you are proposing to those who still linger with a "cold war" mentality. They do not accept any collective approach to our problems. As soon as this is mentioned, you are a communist. What needs to be pointed out as you have so ably done is that their life is being dictated to, by a faceless entity that takes no personal responsibity for the services they offer(An HMO is not a person). Worse it is being motivated by making profit rather than delivering a product everyone needs at reasonable cost and quality. I am a member of PNHP, an organization trying to educate the public on single-payer health plan(<pnhp.org>), but basically it has been catch as catch can. There is no unified action plan to pull constituencies together to put pressure on state or federal legislatures. This organization was recently responsible for the study on bankrupcy due to health costs as a major factor(50%). It has generated little immediate traction.

Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade. Our corporations and their tied in institutions(large insurance companies) are the communists. They dictate who, what, and where we use the services they offer, not the other way around, coming from the public. There is insufficient influence from the general public. We are poorly organized. Our problem is we do not want to become what we abhor and so we head off in a million or more directios rejecting what we need. So we are in a building phase. We must recognize those parts of our society that lend themselves to governmental payment with proper oversight and preservation of independence of those working and receiving services in the system. We must compromise, but work in the framework that we want to improve our individual and collective survival. This is a mean trick. I haven't yet seen any popular movement that is trying to pull this off.

I also find that we are lacking the proper leadership or we tend to eat our young because they are not the perfection we seek. If someone is intelligent, experienced, willing to listen, and understands our society rises and falls on our mutual survival, they should get our support. We can argue nuance later. In Vermont Dr. Debbie Richter(a member of PNHP0) and Cornelius Hogan(a Republican businessman) have joined forces to try to bring a single-payer plan to that state. They are beginning to have some success. DUers in that state, if so inclined, can lend their support. I live in Massacchsetts and universal health care is in the legislature. The bill we support is S755 and we certainly could use help in bringing this to reality. Mass DUers can contact their reps and senators in the state legislature <mass.gov>.

Mr. Kerry lost because he did not articulate this societal sense well. He did not come across as someone who would be a leader for all the people. Killing terrorists better than the other guy, using the same systems that are causing our problems, and not reaching out to disenfranchised citizens in language they could understand made the last contest too close. Even if it was stolen, again, it should not have been that narrow a victory considering what the other side was offering. We need to communicate more effectively that our economics and societal rules should be directed towards everyone's improved survival, not a chosen few.

I, myself, was thinking of bringing the message of universal health care to an evengelical group calling it "The devil in the details" using the Mark Twain device to get people to realize they are being silently manipulated in the wrong direction. If I am successful I will write about it here again. We have to start reaching out somewhere. It means all of us who want change will have to become activists by talking to those who are out of power but sadly believe their pot of gold is just around the corner in our present system. Wish me luck.