What yo and the DUers don't get about Rangel and the Draft.

[xultar]

Until the RICH KIDS start going to war nothing will be done about the lies.

That is why we need the DRAFT.

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. What makes you think the rich kids will get drafted?

ETA: I'm not being snarky, it's a legitimate question.

[xultar]

25. Rich and middle class will go this time. I can feel it.

[H2O Man]

29. Zero chance of it.

There is absolutely no chance of rich kids going to Iraq, unless they volunteer. The Issue Paper from the administration, which has been covered on DU numerous times, explains what a draft will look like if it occures. There is zero chance -- none -- that rich kids would ever be sent to war.

[Orsino]

30. I don't think so.

The rich will find it much easier to continue squeezing the underclass, killing off enough jobs that the poor will continue to enlist.

*No* draft will make if through a Congress composed largely of the rich unless it exempts the rich.

[BattyDem]

2. Rich kids will get deferments like they always did

I understand what Rangel is trying to do, but there's no way a Repug congress will enact an draft that doesn't include an "out clause" for rich kids. It'll never happen. :-(

[Midlodemocrat]

3. I agree completely.

There is no way the rethugs are going to chance that their children are put in harm's way.

[Orsino]

32. Yep.

Not even back in the Sixties could such a thing have passed.

Big Money's grip on the government has tightened eightfold since then, so I don't see any chance of Big Money's children going off to war now.

[LynnTheDem]

10. What deferments would that be, seeing as how bush killed off most

deferments back in 2000.

[BattyDem]

21. Do you honestly believe ...

a Repug congress would reinstate a draft without reinstating the loopholes for rich kids?

[KansDem]

22. Of course. This is the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave...

...with Liberty and Jusssssssssssssss...with Liberty and JJJUUSususssss...damn, I can't the the keys to work. With LIBERTY AND JUSSSSSS...USSS..JJUSSSSTT.....JJJJ....

Oh, never mind!

[elehhhhna]

17. Don't see many Dem Politicians' kids in the mil, either. Just saying.

[ComerPerro]

23. Why should they be? Its not their war

[elehhhhna]

39. Got ya, but IIRC, some of them voted for it, then funded it. Repeatedly.

[ComerPerro]

40. Yeah, but I can't blame them for funding it

Especially in the house.

Actually, just recently a Democratic State Senator from MN lost her son in the war.

[H2O Man]

31. "deferments" by another name ....

The Issue Paper that came from this administration that advocated a draft, first reported on DU:GD by "Dems Will Win," shows that rich kids will get cushy, non-military jobs here in the United States.

[Lars39]

4. A draft will enable the PNAC plans.

[fob]

5. "Rich kids" don't get drafted, they get cushy spots in champagne units

and cover gigs in Senate campaigns. You are correct however, once the Senator/Reps kids get caught up the lies/wars will end.

[Atman]

6. But the republican-controlled Congress will make sure their kids don't go

Rangle can say anything he wants, do anything he wants, make all the points he can make, but when the rubber meets the road, it will be the republicans calling the shots on who will get drafted, and somewhere, somehow, at some time late some evening, someone will slip in a few vague loopholes big enough to drive their kids through. Guaran-freakin' teed. I think any parent would do the same. Even lying, hypocritical, money-grubbing, in-it-for-themselves Congressmen.

[davsand]

7. Rangel creeps out the chickenhawks.

I can't get too mad a Rangel either, xultar.

All he's doing is laying out there for the chickenhawks that THIS time if they put a draft in place they are gonna have to send their kids too. Maybe if they realize up front that they can't BUY Jr. a deferment they'll stop and think before they draft the rest of our kids.

Charlie Rangel is ok in my book.


Laura

[goclark]

12. I agree with you, Rangel

is much too smart to fall into a trap.

He is always out there on the tough issues.

[BurtWorm]

19. That's my reading, too.

He's my Congressman, by the way. Wouldn't trade him for almost anyone else's. His position on the draft changed my mind. I don't believe one should be introduced for this war, but I think the reason Rangel keeps bringing it up is to raise the question in people's minds: do I want my child to fight Bush's war?

[xultar]

28. That is what I'm trying to say.

[Inland]

8. I can see the point.

Bush works hard to make sure that the vast majority of Americans, and all the ones with political power, don't feel even a pinch from his war. The cost is all borrowed to be repaid by future generations and the dead and maimed are volunteers from rural America.

[MuseRider]

9. Excuse me if I

go the other way here. I refuse to gamble with the lives of my two draft age sons. A good strategy it may be but my sons will have to deal with this and I am not willing to support anything that will cause them to deal with that. Having been old enough to have friends deal with the draft before I know what it does to them. Sorry, not this time.

[Extend a Hand]

16. as a mother

of a draft age son and soon to be draft age son, I'm with you.

While I understand what C. Rangel is trying to do, I think this would play into the hands of the PNAC folks. The kids with connections would still never see combat, and the PNAC folks would get all the poor and middle class kids that needed to press on with their evil agenda.

[wakeme2008]

11. I wish Rangel would close his yapper over this

IMHO, the last thing the RW needs is to blame a draft on the Dems. :grr:

[Lex]

13. "It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no FORTUNATE SON."

Even John Fogerty knew 3 decades ago that the sons of the rich don't get drafted.

--------


FORTUNATE SON Lyrics
Creedence Clearwater Revival



Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail To The Chief",
oh, they point the cannon at you, Lord,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no senator's son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no,

Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, don't they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman come to the door,
Lord, the house look a like a rummage sale, yes,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no millionaire's son.
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no.

Yeh, some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, how much should we give,
oh, they only answer, more, more, more, yoh,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no military son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no no no,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate son, no no no,

- John C. Fogerty

[Wind Dancer]

18. Fogerty has also written a new song I'm sure you will appreciate.

This is a bit off topic but your post reminded me of days past.

DEJA VU (ALL OVER AGAIN)

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio
Did you try to read the writing on the wall
Did that voice inside you say I've heard it all before
It's like Deja Vu all over again

Day by day I hear the voices rising
Started with a whisper like it did before
Day by day we count the dead and dying
Ship the bodies home while the networks all keep score

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio
Could your eyes believe the writing on the wall
Did that voice inside you say I've heard it all before
It's like Deja Vu all over again

One by one I see the old ghosts rising
Stumblin' 'cross Big Muddy
Where the light gets dim
Day after day another Momma's crying
She's lost her precious child
To a war that has no end

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio
Did you stop to read the writing at The Wall
Did that voice inside you say
I've seen this all before
It's like Deja Vu all over again
It's like Deja Vu all over again

John Fogerty
©2004 Cody River Music / ASCAP

[mcscajun]

14. Rangel knows he's not going to get a draft. He just wants the discussion

out there...so people remember Who is going, and Who Isn't.

[HockeyMom]

15. They got out of it before,

and they will again. I knew a kid back in HS who was the captain of the football team on a private prep school team. His Dad was a Attorney and his Mom was an OB/GYN. They had an apartment on the Upper East Side, a house in Greenwich, and a villa somewhere in Italy. He was never drafted because he had a "severe heart condition." Funny how that never prevented him from playing football?

[MadHound]

20. Sorry, but the rich kids won't go

No matter what wording is used, no matter what provision is put in place, the rich kids won't go, for their parents have the money and the juice to get them a pass on a 4F by a bribe doctor, or push them into a cushy, safe stateside posting ala Bush's champagne TANG unit.

Nope, it will once again be the children of the poor and middle class who go to war, who bleed and die all to make money for the priveledged few.

No a draft is not a good idea.

[xultar]

26. With all this patriotic right win bullshit. I'm sure a lot will get called

[MadHound]

35. They may get called, but extremely doubtful that many will actually go

The situation is much like in Vietnam, and as with that conflict, even though there is something of a groundswell of patriotic fervor, the children of the rich will have the resources and means of avoiding combat situations.

These people simply have the means, money and power at their disposal to insure that their sons and daughters won't go. They will be able wrangle a 4F classification on the slimmest of circumstances, like Rush's father, a judge, was able to do for Pigboy. Or grease the skids with stupendous amounts of cash to place their child in a unit guaranteed not to see combat, as with Bushboy's placement in TANG.

A draft isn't the answer, and I hope that we don't go there, no matter what the reason. The best answer at this point is for the troops to become so depleted that we're forced to withdraw. Throwing more men into the fray, no matter who makes the proposal, simply plays into Bushboy's hands, and will guarantee this illegal, immoral war will stretch out for years and years, with death tolls in the millions. Do you really want that to happen? Because that is what you're backing when you support the return of a draft.

[pie]

24. Every Dem should be raging to get us home

Rangel is focused on the wrong thing.
Besides, rich kids will not be sent to danger zones.

[July]

27. Agree and disagree.

Rich kids who have other options aren't going to join the service in large numbers without a draft. If they are drafted, their parents are in a position to make some noise (and they will) or do things to get them out that less wealthy parents can't do, which doesn't seem fair.

On the other hand, I'm one of those fortunate parents with some wealth. My whole family, including the young men, opposes Bush's war and has from the beginning. I'd make myself poor again to keep them out of IraqNam (have already had this discussion with my husband, who agrees), and I wouldn't have any regrets about it. I wish I were so fabulously wealthy that I could do the same for others, but I'm not.

Coming from my perspective, I see it more as an issue of war supporters vs. war opposers. A lot of the gungho for war types aren't sending their kids, and some even actively discourage them from going. Their hypocrisy will end with a draft. And I do think that when the war supporters' kids get called up, whether they're from wealthy families or not, things will change.

I wouldn't wish a draft on any young person today, when I know that their lives will be risked for nothing by people like Bush and Cheney who don't waste a fraction of a second worrying about those lives. I'm not ready to gamble anyone's life -- not a rich kid's, not a Bush supporter's kid's, not a poor kid's, not a war opposer's kid's. The war is a mistake, and more warm bodies will make it last longer, with more death to kids in all of those groups.

[IrateCitizen]

33. What xultar doesn't get about Rangel and the draft...

Rangel's bill offers up absolutely NO EXEMPTIONS from military service. And as such, it steps on the neck of one right that was fought for over a long time -- CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION.

Why does this matter to me? Because I am a conscientious objector myself, having applied in Dec 2002 and discharged for other reasons with a still-pending claim in Sep 2004 -- and my experience compelled me to seek out other CO's and help co-found www.peace-out.com, a CO support network by CO's, for CO's.

Now, I'm all for some sort of legislation that provides for compulsory national service. Personally, I think that it is a good thing, because it FORCES people to see others who come from very different backgrounds. However, such a program should not be installed at the expense of conscientious objection.

[H2O Man]

34. Good point.

The draft, should it be re-instated, will not be that advocated by Rangel. It will be the one detailed in the 2-11-03 Issue Paper promoted by Charles Abell, the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness, which is supported by Lewis Brodsky, of the Selective Services. The format is already in place. The plan is more extreme than Rangels's.

[Inland]

36. Is Conscientous Objection an exemption to the draft?

I think CO still get drafted and are put in a non-combat role somewhere under current law. Maybe the status is in a different statute than the laws on concription itself.

[IrateCitizen]

37. It can be...

There are two categories of CO -- a 1-O, which is an objector to all forms of war, and 1-O-A, which is a refusal to serve in a combatant role. The former simply do not serve in the military, and the latter can perform roles that do not require them to carry a weapon.

Look up AR 600-43 for a more detailed description on conscientious objection. You can access it through our website -- www.peace-out.com

[H2O Man]

38. There is no draft.

The last time there was a draft, CO was for an exemption. The most famous case was Nation of Islam Minister Muhammad Ali. Though he would be stripped of his boxing title, and not allowed to earn a living for three and a half years, the US Supreme Court would eventually rule 8-0 that Ali was indeed a CO, exempt from the draft.

If the draft returns, CO will not be a reason for exemption.