What do you say to people who think Real ID is no big deal?

[BattyDem]

What is your response when they say, "I don't do anything wrong so I've got nothing to worry about."

I've tried explaning why it's bad for democracy and privacy because we're supposed to be free from government surveillance and free to move about ... but that doesn't really seem to sink in.

What do you say when they just don't get it? :shrug:

[lala_rawraw]

1. I tell them to

Explain to me what they know of real ID. The usual answer is: "it stops illegal immigration" and then I get into the facts, which they do not believe. Then I tell them to go to hell. Simple and frustrating.

[tk2kewl]

2. You're a moron, usually

either that or just dismiss them. Unfortunately, that is my mother-in-law's feeling on the whole Patriot Act. She is not an intellectual giant however, so I simply dismiss her politics.

[HockeyMom]

3. Papers, Citizen?

I vant to zee your papers.

[AldebTX]

4. I Just Say....

To my Repub friends....

I thought you were for LESS government

To my Dem Friends.....

Haven't met one yet that doesn't GET it.

[seabeyond]

5. tell the women when they have to strip down and do the duck hop

at the airport watched by men, not to worry cause they wont get in trouble since they dont do anything wrong.

[dogday]

6. I asked them if they ever Fly?

then I tell them you won't be without that card....

[TahitiNut]

7. I tell them to get their forearm tattooed with their Social Security #.

Then I ask whether they'd let me look a their tax returns and check registers, tap their telephones, and install video cameras in their bedrooms.

[Lannes]

8. My favorite

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/pizzacall

Flash movie

[BattyDem]

27. This is awesome .. thanks!

:toast:

I know a few people that will finally "get it" when they see this. :-)

[tx_dem41]

9. Hey...at least "they" KNOW about it...

most people aren't even aware of it.

[phantom power]

10. I don't get it.

I bet you've heard this before, but... we already have IDs which are all but universal. Drivers licenses, social security numbers, etc.

We are already required to supply these IDs in all kinds of situations. We leave a trail whereever we go, via credit cards (unless you use only cash, I suppose).

What is actually the difference? Is it a change in legislation you are worried about? The "show me your papers" scenario could happen today, if they wanted, without a universal ID. That's a change in government behavior, not a new ID system.

[Ready4Change]

12. Those are based on specific abilities, permissions etc. Not ID.

Drivers licenses are for driving cars. SS cards are for paying taxes. It is possible (albiet awkward and unlikely) to live a life without having to have any of these. Without a drivers license you aren't supposed to drive a car. Without an SS number you aren't supposed to hold a paying job (because you are supposed to pay taxes on income.)

However, RealID is meant to be a validation of YOU.

[phantom power]

16. But my current IDs are, de-facto, used to validate "me" all the time.

I'm required to show my drivers licence to cash a check. I'm required to use my credit-card to validate my identity at the e-ticket kiosk in the airport. I'm required to give my social security number every time I apply for a loan, or validate a bank transaction over the phone.

Those are all examples of validation that are completely outside the "original" intent of the cards.

If our government wanted to require "papers" track our movements, they can do it any time. All they have to do is establish checkpoints, and station cops, military police, agents, etc, and have them require a valid drivers license to pass them.

Giving everybody a new id card isn't going to make that creepy scenario any easier, or harder. They might as well just use SSN. Every tax-paying citizen is required to have one anyway. How many citizens are there that don't pay taxes?

[SoCalDem]

18. Indiana USED to use SS# as DL number

I was shocked to see it when we moved there..(years ago)They probably changed that practice by now:)

[Ready4Change]

19. There are two ways for Tyranny to establish itself.

The first is sudden, such as in a military coup.

The second is by subtle degrees.

The Fed government, by REQUIRING you to have this specific ID, would be taking another subtle step.

You aren't required to have the other ID's, because you aren't required to drive, to cash checks, to take airline flights. It is possible for you to sit on your front lawn with no ID whatsover and just watch the clouds drift by.

If RealID becomes a reality, you'll need to have that ID in your wallet while you watch those clouds. While you eat lunch. While you walk on the beach. Why?

Let me ask you this:

Why should every single citizen be REQUIRED to carry ID? Not "would it be handy." Why should it be REQUIRED of every single citizen?

[phantom power]

21. No particular reason.

I'm definitely not advocating RealID. I just don't think that it would enable anything new, that the federal government can't already do, if they choose.

If people actually started running around, and randomly checking people's id, I would consider that very creepy. Regardless of whether that ID was my driver's license, or a RealID, or anything else.

I'm rather more creeped out by the patriot act, and the patriot-II, since they actually change what the government is allowed to do, and worse yet, what they are allowed to do in secret, without any oversight. I'd spend my energy fighting that, instead of RealID.

[Kellanved]

11. yup, I agree.

:shrug:

[eallen]

13. They're right, but not for the reason you think...

It is a big deal that people are now required to maintain and present a verified identity for much of their day to day business. The thing is, that is already the case. The last time I renewed my driver's license, the DPS took my thumbprints. Even though I walk to the bank, they want a driver's license to open an account for me. And a tax ID or social security number. Those tie me to every credit card I hold, and the banks' databases trace my every financial step. Both credit card and driver's license are required to rent a car or board a plane.

I'm puzzled by the people who scream and shout about having to "show your papers" at every turn. Are they never asked for the driver's license? Or do they simply think that that isn't a more rigorous ID check than anything that was done a half century past?

I hate to say it, but that ship has sunk, and you're worrying about the fact that a cowl vent is left open, when the iceberg already has torn open the hull and the water passing through that vent is coming out.

[Gormy Cuss]

17. Why the "papers please" yelling

If you're over 40 you remember when you could go about your business most days without anyone asking you for an ID. Driver's licenses were used to verify who you were to law enforcement only. They were available as ID verification for the government but not required. In many states there was no photo, only a physical description. Your Social Security card said explicitly that it was not to be used for ID. You could refuse to supply your SSN to anyone who wasn't involved in an income relevant transaction (paying you wages or interest, for example.) You could rent an apartment and sign up for utilities without supplying an SSN (you may have been given a choice of placing a deposit or allowing a credit check, but it was your choice.)
You remember when VISA and Mastercard touted that one of the advantages to using credit cards over checks was that it was simple, just present the card without further ID. In fact, both VISA and Mastercard had provisions in their contracts with vendors requiring this. Here's the thing: ID theft was quite rare.

The ID phenomenon became bad with the proliferation of computerized recordkeeping in the '90s and the relaxing of banking and lending rules. Advantage: small to consumers, huge to private business. It became disturbing when the government chimed in with the PATRIOT act.
The government used to have very stringent confidentiality rules for its own data. For example, individually-identifiable program data maintained by one agency (DOL, for example) could not be shared with staff at another agency (HHS, for example) without extensive review and sign-off straight up the chain to the Secretary, and consent was rare. As is often mentioned these days as a failure, the FBI wasn't required to share info with the CIA either.

The lack of privacy safeguards under the PATRIOT act is something you know if you're here so I won't waste the space. The major limiting factor in the PATRIOT act were the sunset provisions. Without them I'd like to think that most congress members would have had the spine to say no.

Are we safer with the current level of intrusion? No. Are we less safe because of the greater availability of machine readable data on everyone? Probably.

As to the pea brains who repeat that silly "I've got nothing to hide" argument, see Tahiti Nut and other posters here. I always say, good for you, but don't make the choice for me.

[Ready4Change]

20. There's a difference.

There's a difference between needing ID for services, and needing ID, period.

It may be a subtle difference, but frogs can be cooked by subtle differences.

[eallen]

23. Where is THAT difference being proposed?

[Fleshdancer]

14. They hate us for our diminishing freedoms

Seriously though, I usually just start ranting about how insane it is to blindly believe that your government is looking out for your best interest. How can you keep the government honest if you don't remain a skeptic? Suddenly it's ok to be viewed as guilty until proven innocent. Insane.

Once again, I can't help but think that if it was Clinton who came up with this crap...

[Ready4Change]

15. 2 responses, depending...

If they are extremely religious, I would ask them about Revelations 13:16-18.

If they are "patriots" I ask them to read the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independance, and then ask whether a RealID would more likely serve or oppose the intentions of our founding fathers?

[realFedUp]

22. They should talk to someone who has had his or her identity stolen

that should do it.

[DireStrike]

24. Doesn't a standardized ID make it harder for ID thieves?

?

[lonestarnot]

25. LOL DMV controlling... they employ rings of id theives!

[BattyDem]

26. Thanks to everyone who replied

It looks like most of you have encountered the same thing I have:

Dems and/or open-minded people will listen to the facts and get angry and scared.
Republicans and/or close-minded people will say, "So what?"

I guess some people will have to learn the hard way. :-(

[MountainLaurel]

28. Ask them what they'd do

When the Department of Homeland Security shoots at their car because they accidentally turned down a one-way street in DC and claims the car was a "security threat". There will be no recourse, no judicial review, no congressional help, because Real ID had made DHS accountable to no man, with no oversight from any other government agency.