When old dogs learn new tricks....

[salin]

So the neocons are once again stoking the lets attack iran winds.

but the public has grown cynical. More today think that going into Iraq in the first place was the wrong thing to do.

even among those who may not believe that the admninstration intentionally manipulated intelligence to go to war (those folks have to fight off the cognitive dissonance, and can't yet accept that our government would "do that" to us - and choose to think it was a "mistake" - per "bad intelligence") believe that the intelligence we were sold at the time was wrong. That fact seems to be pretty well accepted by everyone - except the diehard neocons or the part of the evangelical/fundie right that believes bush was picked by God to be president.

Will the administration really push us into attacking/war with Iran or Syria? Clearly some within want that to be the case. They are so divorced from reality (eg we don't have the troops, etc.) that they are unfettered from reality when pursuing the policy.

But the old dog - the public - might just have learned a new trick. Not buying the trumped up intel. Either - they lied to us before and they will do it again; or (for some) the intel was wrong before it is probably wrong again... hence - not likely to get much public support.

If they (admin) do this, the harder that they push, the more likely more and more of the public moves from.... "they relied on bad intel" - to our camp... "they are pushing this.../lying to us..."

Are they really foolhardy enough - due to their hubris and addiction to the belief that they have absolute power - to push another military adventure?

Just as more and more news items are floating about that give the middle americans - who still want to believe that going to iraq was well intended, just based on bad intel - reason to shake through their cognitive dissonance? Do they really think that if they push this now... that the stories of the Downing Street minutes will continue to be underreported in the US Press?

What happens if they push full throttle (and they have shown us, time and time again that they are nuts enough to do so)... and the old dog has learned a new trick?

[salin]

1. Why I raise the question - two recent news items:

Thursday:

Rumsfeld warns against sheltering al-Zarqawi
Admonition was sternest yet by U.S.; appeared to be aimed at Syria and Iran.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050602/NEWS06/506020487/1012/NEWS06

Today:

Intelligence Sees Terrorists in Iran
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1521247&mesg_id=1521247

Are they engaging in bullying (eg bully Iran), or staging for another round of adventurterring?

[Toby109]

2. I think it's a bit of both.

I believe that 9/11 happened because Bushco(read PNAC)threatened the Taliban and bin Laden with destruction if they did not allow that pipeline-which was supposed to be Enron's savior-to be built. I also think Syria is a bluff move. Iran has always been the main target, both for oil and strategic positioning. The Saudis are next.

[me b zola]

7. Saudis next?

Bloodless coup?

Didn't the King's illness a week or so ago remind you of Arafat? Going to the hospital for tests, then end up in intensive care in critical condition. That came on the heels of the Saudi Crown Prince going to Crawford to hold hands with *.

Which reminds me, how is the King?? I haven't heard a peep about his condition.

[welshTerrier2]

3. Are "they" really foolhardy enough ???

my friend, this "they" you're referring to sadly includes many of "us" ... the Democratic Party's platform itself has hawkish language about not tolerating Iran's nuclear program and requiring "mandatory" inspections ... i recently heard Obama talk about Iran's "meddling" in Iraq (unlike the US of course) ...

we are being sold down the river by our own elected Congressmen ... before we point fingers ONLY at the imperialist neo-cons, let's understand that our own team has been fully complicit with them ...

show me leading Democrats in the Senate who have warned Americans about the pending disaster should we broaden the "war" beyond Iraq ... either Democrats are complicit in bush's imperialist schemes or they are political opportunists who think the best strategy is to show no leadership whatsoever and just go along with bush ... either way, i'm afraid we have a pretty sorry crop of Democrats in the Senate, at least as far as foreign policy goes ...

bush and the neo-cons are as evil as they come and their pro-corporate hegemony in the Middle East is a national and international disgrace; but just how good can we feel about the Democrats in the Senate in reaction to all this right-wing evil??? Democrats may not have the votes to change the direction but they would have the attention of the American people if they spoke out on the issues and cautioned against more militarism in the Middle East ... but "they" just aren't going to do that ... and therein lies the rub ...

[neweurope]

4. Applause from me. I've been shaking my head in disbelief reading about

the Dems... And as long as they behave as they do nobody in Europe will ever believe that there really is any kind of problem in the US.

As to the original question: They'll stage another 9/11 if they think that the dog has learned a new trick. THAT'll bring'em around. It really will...

------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to the Hague!

[Karenina]

8. Also, meinst Du...

problem = active dissent? Das Wort "problem" ist D'englisch and Amis have no point of reference for the usage or sense. Aber guck mal hier!
Die alte Hündin, Tante K. hat etwas neues gelernt:

We the People...(Bevölkerung)... better DO/MAKE something...(machen) and fickin' QUICK!!! Sie werden uns ALLE UMBRINGEN. HALLO!!! Wir haben diese Scheiße schon mal gesehen!!!

[neweurope]

9. No, I didn't mean dissent. I meant "problem". That's

Denglish? The fascists is what I'm talking about. I see the Bushistas as a problem for the US - and the world. Most Germans haven't realized yet what is going on in the US. When I tell people I often hear "that Kerry hasn't said a word". As long as the opposition votes right along WITH the Bushistas people here think everything is fine. How else could I have expressed that?

As to those red moving phrases of yours: 1) You're right and 2) how did you do that?

---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to the Hague!

[Karenina]

11. Als Dolmetscherin

;-) Darf ich sagen that your expression is not the problem, sondern the Verständnis. What is happening to the U.S. is the most extensive psy-ops marketing scam EVER. The very perception here that Amis have no "problem" with their gub'mint is part of the *media spin. OUR press is also on a leash. Not NEARLY as short media in the States aber trotzdem...

My kidlinks here on DU taught dey ol' Tante a NEW TRICK!!! GEIL, na???

[salin]

5. valid point

per while not having the power to stop things - having the power to push public awareness. And I have to agree - I chalk it up to political opportunism - being sold on the idea that if they were to oppose, that then they would not be reelected. My senator (Bayh) is among the worst in this camp. but for him it is the false belief that he has a shot at becoming the party nominee for president.

But - if/as public sentiment shifts - so will the willingness to speak out. Sadly for many this would be due to political opportunism (now being on the side that would win with votes) rather than necessarily based on conviction. *sigh*

[welshTerrier2]

6. policies before politics

i wrote the following in a thread late last night in response to another DU'er who argued that we "have to gain power before we can change any policies" ... i thought it was worth repeating ...

i have been pleading with Democrats not to accept this view ... i think we will not be given a chance to lead if voters can smell politicians setting policy by reading the polls ...

and this will be made even more true, as it was in the last election, if the neo-cons are able to whip voters into a fearful frenzy that our nation is at risk of being attacked ... Democrats can't pretend this issue doesn't exist and they can't just "go along" ... if they do, we will be seen as weak ... we will be seen as not having the courage of our convictions ... and we will be seen as the "mommy party" that's good at tidying up the house but not good at protecting the family from outside attackers ...

Democrats need to be strong on defense but they still have to be Democrats ... and to me at least, that means that we emphasize national security by emphasizing alliances ... it means that when a war becomes an occupation with no progress at all after more than two years, we stand up and demand some accountability and set some kind of "not later than" date ... we need not demand an exact exit date but we do need to call for some kind of end point ...

anyway, it is my belief that Democrats are getting into deeper and deeper trouble because of their silence ... and soon, we'll attack Syria and then Iran ... what kind of people have we chosen to lead us who say nothing and provide no vision or guidance? i, for one, have no confidence they will choose the right path ... i worry that others will feel the same way ...

[Karenina]

12. When old dogs learn new tricks

THIS is the kinda shit that happens:

(:woohoo: See what da chilluns done taught this puppy today!!! :woohoo:)

A picture IS worth a thousand words. I've had this thing in the cyber cellar for YEARS, saved it as it so aptly describes *Shrubco. That thing the *dauphin be wielding been heated up red-hot in Iraq and used neo-liberally on folks worldwide. Anyone who pipes up gets BURNED. *Blivet is of negligible, albeit symbolic significance in terms of decision making. The PNAC players entrenched in the "American" *gub'mint he represents are the cancer that MUST be excised if we, as a species are to survive. IT REALLY IS ON US AMIS.

We the People... better DO something... and ficking QUICK!!!

The REAL question now is who's gonna take out the most Homo Sapiens first. The BFEE or Mother Nature? I'm betting on Mom. Shall we start a pool? ;-)

[Jose Diablo]

10. Yes, they are

"Are they really foolhardy enough - due to their hubris and addiction to the belief that they have absolute power - to push another military adventure?"

But it is not foolishness, it's part of their strategy. The globalists and corporatist think they can take the USA down. Then after the USA they will work Europe.

All this is a long term plan. It's not foolishness. If anyone is foolish, it is us as we watch them with disbelief at what they are doing thinking we are helpless.