BBV: The question of ethics and morality at Diebold

[Kelvin Mace]

I felt that this deserved a separate thread to address the questions being raised.

As Diebold's email is combed through, we find indications that some employees did have qualms about the system and that some managers did recognize the danger of the system they were designing.

------------------------------------------------------------------
"People have concerns about black-box technologies. They are being asked to trust what they can't see. This is reasonable and must be addressed by having trusted experts review the system and expose its strengths and weaknesses. Eva's posting was claiming that it wasn't possible for any expert to do that."


"It is not the code that is the problem. Electronic DRE sufferes from one critical difference from optical scan or other paper based systems. Paper is a write-once medium. Memory cards are read-write."


"I think that we all agree that DRE auditing mechanisms that record each vote systems are artificial at best. They can perhaps be useful in tracking down some types of problems but if you can't trust the DRE system to start with, you can't trust any type of logging that isn't verified by the voter. And you can't have it verified by the voter without violating privacy (which of course applies to all voting systems).

Therefore you have to be able to trust the system."
------------------------------------------------------------

Some DUers are bringing up the view that Diebold employees were acting in good faith in putting this system together and this is proof that no conspiracy exists, just bad programming.

*Personally*, I agree with this to a point. Never ascribe to treachery what can be explained by stupidity.

Where I draw the line is that the people expressing these concerns never allow their ethical concerns to interfere with what they are being paid to do.

Arrogant groupthink pervade these discussions. The voters are viewed as some kind of different species, separate and distinct from the Diebolders. Many times voters are discussed in the condescending and/or disparaging terms the technically proficient reserve for clueless users. Users are the great brainless, unwashed masses who are at best pitied, and at worst held in contempt.

The point of divergence is always the same: empathy.

Even when they are bringing up valid concerns about the shortcomings of the system they are designing, they never take the ultimate step needed for empathetic enlightenment:

"Would I trust my vote on our machine, knowing the holes in security or the potential bugs that could wipe it out? Even if I trust my machine, would I trust my vote to a competitor's machine?"

The second point of failure is that even when they bring up issues of concern, they ultimately defer to management's lame justifications and do the wrong thing.

There is nothing more dangerous than good people doing evil because they just don't have the courage/desire/awarenes to NOT do evil. The cognitive dissonance sets in, but they refuse to think of the ramifications of their actions. To do so would mean challenging authority and potentially losing their job.

Thinking is hard, morality is harder. Much better to let other people think for us and decide what is and isn't right. This is the axiom that gets people like George Bush elected.

So, even though some Diebolders do bring up objections to the project they are working on, ultimately they proceed with the project and if faced with outside objections, will defend their actions in the face of the very same objections they themselves voiced.

The system Diebold has produced is defective beyond all redemption. The actions of Diebold employees, regardless of personal motiviation has, in my opinion, broken the law multiple times, affected the legitimate outcome of several elections, and is subverting our democracy.

The motivations of some of these people are apparent, and I see no deliberate evil intent in the majority of them, but I do see an arrogant disregard for ethics and morality. The end result is the same.

Of course, the motivations of those higher up the Diebold chain of command remains suspect, especially in light of their actions and statements.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[shirlden]

1. I concur

However, we do need to lift our voices in praise to at least one anonymous Diebold employee who leaked the e-mails.

I've been occupying a spot on this planet for 67 years now and I can tell you when it comes to business and employees the shit always comes down from the top. It does not start at the bottom and go up.

:hi:

[Kelvin Mace]

2. Absolutely...

I've seen the first few dissensions. But as usual, these people tend to resign when they are not listened to in order to avoid being part of evil. This leaves the evil in charge.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[peacetalksforall]

3. Well said

I have some experience with big projects from the user end. Though I'm limited in time to read everything that has been revealed, I'm astounded by what appears to be the lack of communication with a user group, with testing, security holes, and training.

This is an automation outrage.

Employees in the dark, murky-muddy task objectives, black holes, and all the shades of grey a project representing our rights should not have. We need perfection. We demand perfection. We are owed perfection.

The automation of our vote should reflect the epitomy of automation perfection by a U.S. corporation.

[TorchTheWitch]

5. yes, well said

The automation of our vote should reflect the epitomy of automation perfection by a U.S. corporation.

That seems to be much of the problem with using machines at all -- they WILL break down. No matter how carefully a system is set up and tested, it's still going to be vulnerable. No system is completely and utterly perfect, but the good old fashioned paper ballot is still the most reliable simply due to the fact that there are no bells and whistles... the more complex and intricate something is, the higher the potential for failure. We don't need to waste all this money on machines that are going to have a higher failure rate no matter how "perfect" they're made when the paper and pencil is vastly less expensive and more reliable (if the pencil breaks, you just get another damn pencil).

[peacetalksforall]

9. My sentence that includes the phrase 'by a U.S. corporation'

has been made into a joke now that we read Bev Harris's post - GES is a Canadian company with software written in English and Slovenian? My God!!!

It's bad enough that our corporations using their Arthur Andersons dump the money offshore and arrange for the corporations to pay no taxes, that our coroporations pay millions to lobbyists to get our politicians to hide poison and cancer, that our corporations are paying peanuts on the dolloar to employees overseas taking awayjobs from our needy in this country...........now we have a Canadian company who fools around with phoney companies and who writes precious code in English and Slovenian .....who pretends to give us a voting machine. I'm going to have a breakdown.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

44. since we're analyzing your sentence

I note that your sentence also includes the word "epitomy", which isn't even a word.

Also, I don't recall seeing any code written in "Slovenian" anywhere in the stolen code archives. As far as I'm concerned it's more of the usual BBV hearsay... expect it to be quietly retracted on an obscure thread when things slow down a little. ;)

JC

[Zhade]

45. Just remember this phrase: "You can't hack a sheet of paper."

NT!

[BevHarris]

4. BULLETIN: ----- NEW INFO -- Secret Corporate Culture at Diebold

I am a great believer that people hire in their own image, and along those lines, when we see the origins of the Vancouver Global Election Systems group, we know we DO NOT want them hiring in their own image.

Diebold bought Global Election Systems in Jan. 2002.

It took a long time to dig out the origins of Global Election Systems, which is always said to be out of McKinney Texas. That is not so, it turns out. Global Election Systems was always out of Vancouver, Canada; the McKinney operation was a wholly owned subsidiary incorporated in Delaware, which went under the same name.

Most of the employees were out of McKinney, but the finance and programming was in Vancouver, and the programming still comes out of Vancouver.

DemActivist and I tinkered around with the ownership chain in July, finding that the company was Canadian but pretending it was Texan.

I was unable to get much information before 1996, which is when Global Election Systems, Vancouver Canada, bought Bob Urosevich's touch screen company, I-Mark Systems, which was based in Omaha.

Recently, I uncovered a report that opened up the history of this company. It also opens up some strange financing transactions -- In their 2000 financial statement, DemActivist noticed (if I am remembering right), it shows $5 million in loans on $3 million in receivables. I don't know any banking organization that will lend 166 percent on receivables.

I also found, in SEC documents, a $500,000 loan made to Global Election Systems using a wrong name. Robert J. Urosevich is listed as Robert S. Urosavech on the Compass Bank documents, which lent the money to an entity called Global Election Systems New Mexico. He has a bankruptcy on his record; I wonder if there was also an error in his social security number?

But then it gets even more interesting: The original owner of Global Election Systems was North American Professional Technologies, Inc. which was a wholly owned subsidiary of MacroTrends Ventures Ltd. (also listed some places as MacroTrends International Ventures, Ltd.)

What happened was that MacroTrends pulled in an entity called Racer Resources, Ltd. and with it, created a new entity called North American Professional Technologies, Inc., whose wholly owned subsidiary was Global Election Systems, Inc.

Are you with me so far? Here's where it gets very interesting. They had this stuff on the Vancouver Stock Exchange. (Say what? What is the Vancouver Stock Exchange?) Well, the reason you don't know much about the Vancouver Stock Exchange is that it is now defunct. It was written up in Forbes magazine as the Scam capital of the world, and the folks behind MacroTrends etc. became famous for something called "The Vancouver Maneuver" in which they pulled in a worthless publicly held company that was losing money, often a mining company -- enter Racer Resources, Ltd. -- and then they folded in another moneyloser that was not a publicly held company and sounded exciting. That way, they could take the nonpublic moneyloser and make it a public company without going through scrutiny or normal due diligence procedures required to take a company public.

Then, they would change the name -- enter "North American Professional Technologies" and start pumping up the price, selling the inflated stock in the United States and Europe. While they engaged in this pump and dump, the key players were laundering millions in the Cayman Islands and elsewhere.

Articles about these guys and the "Vancouver Maneuver" were published in Barrons in the early 90s. One of the key players in Global Election Systems was Charles Lee, who came from MacroTrends. He was also mentioned by the financial media a few years later in connection with indictments for some bad acting with Vinex Wines -- and these indictments were in the United States. I don't think they got Mr. Lee, but they got his partner, Mr. Graye.

I find myself powerfully curious as to when, exactly, Charles Lee stepped out of Global Election Systems and whether Sophia Lee, the tech mentioned in San Luis Obispo, King County and Volusia County memos, and/or Whitman Lee, who is one of the Vancouver programmers, are related. As in, are they his kids?

The worst of the Vancouver Maneuver stuff was going on in the early 90s. Talbot Iredale, the head programmer in Vancouver, has been with the company since 1991. Another key player, I think he is now deceased, is Clinton Rickards, who was also with North American Professional Technologies.

I am a great believer in corporate culture. It's healthy or it's not, and I think we now have good reason to wonder whether the origins of Global Election Systems fostered a healthy, honest corporate culture.

One other thing I have noticed: They seem to go out of their way to hire people who are not only not U.S. Citizens, but not even Canadian citizens. Some of these people seem to be entrusted with the most sensitive programming. According to the staff list, there are fewer than 20 people working in Vancouver, but they include:

Dmitry Papushin (Russian)
Tomas Capek (Czech)
Greg Poloczek (Polish)
Sophia Lee (notes on an IRQ personal profile say she is from Hong Kong and speaks Chinese and Slovenian)
Another reference in the memos is to a person named Boetzkes, who apparently did the "clockfix" patch used in Georgia.

I just find this interesting. According to notes in one of their compiled files, Global Election software is created in English and Slovenian. I have no conclusion drawn as to what this means. Just "hmmm."

Bev Harris

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Agreed, the rot appears

to have been considerable at the top, tapering off as your go down the chain of command. Still, it would seem the problem self-corrected to the dark side as time went on, since people who voiced strong objections tended to resign. Those that stayed raised questions, but ultimately "went along".

Changing your name every few years is the hallmark the of con man.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[TorchTheWitch]

7. sniff, sniff

anyone else smelling three day old dead mackerel? yep, something smells decidedly fishy.

Wow, just when you think it couldn't possibly get anymore evil. I swear, at this point, I doubt I'll be surpised if the next thing discovered is that they're running planes filled with kilos of herion out of Afganistan as well.

GREAT research there, Bev!

[MGKrebs]

8. Hats off to y'all.

Looks like a LOT of work went into the info described in that post. Very interesting.

It feels like the pot is starting to boil.

[shirlden]

19. On the 5 Mil loan

This may have come from Diebold. See here:
http://www.newswire.ca/releases/September2001/07/c5884.html

Also, I noticed a strange thing on e-mail memos in the "salestalk" archive. I need to go back and double check every entry, but as early as 30 July, 1999 there is an e-mail from "Ingrid" <ingrid @dieboldes.com> to Larry Emsinger <[e-mail]>.
06 Jan 2000 <[e-mail]> This is a long e-mail, but they (Guy Lancaster and a Mickey G. Martin) are discussing domain registrations. Lancaster says, "In the future, accuvote.com would be easier to market as an Internet voting site than globalelection.com or dieboldes.com"

My big question.......how is Diebold involved with GES in 1999-2000???


:think:

[BevHarris]

23. Sharp eyes -- that was vetted on a private BBV.org forum

blackboxvoting.org did some analysis of these memos out of the public eye.

The salestalk and the announce lists appear to have had a global replace done where all gesn.com web and email addresses were replaced with dieboldes.com.

After looking at a bunch of things, it appears that these lists had a mass search & replace done -- other lists, like the support list, did not have same thing done. The memo you refer to would have originally read "globalelection.com or gesn.com"

They didn't bother to replace the globalelection.com, the less-used address, but the gesn.com was in all the emails and anything with gesn.com in it glommed over to dieboldes.com

I don't think Diebold was involved before January 2001, but we did look into that. Couldn't find any evidence of it. By 2001 they were clearly talking about acquisition, and by June had loaned a bunch of money, and by fall 2001 had an offer on the table. The deal closed in Jan. 2002.

Bev

[shirlden]

34. The 5 mill loan

was dated 29 June 2001. Along with that loan Diebold was going to produce 500 units for a GES contract. So, the question here is, when did Diebold come into the picture ? Though it may not be important, I think I will try to track down any previous contact between Diebold and GES . Have my eye on Brian W. Courtney. Probably nothing here to see, but can spare a couple of hours of research just in case.

Trivia note; Robert Urosevich attended Coe College in Cedar Rapids, Iowa 1966-70.

:kick:

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

22. well done!

I'm shocked to read the latest developments in the BBV case. Since it's a slow Sunday afternoon I thought I'd contribute a little extra research to the cause:

Here's a list of people with surname "Lee" in Vancouver, BC. Unfortunately the results stop after the first 500:

http://www.canada411.com/english/presults.asp?lastname=LEE&firstname=&citytown=Vancouver&province=BC&row=0



Here's a list of people with surname "Lee" in Richmond, BC, which is a suburb of Vancouver. Unfortunately the results also stop after the first 500:

http://www.canada411.com/english/presults.asp?lastname=LEE&firstname=&citytown=Richmond&province=BC&row=0


Here's a list of people with surname "Lee" in Burnaby, BC, which is also a suburb of Vancouver. Unfortunately the results here stop after the first 500 too:

http://www.canada411.com/english/presults.asp?lastname=LEE&firstname=&citytown=Burnaby&province=BC&row=0


I'm suspicious that the results cut off after 500. Did Diebold arrange this to hide the personal information of the evil Lee cabal?

Still, 1500 names and phone numbers is a start. Maybe someone should start calling all these people up personally and harrassing them on the phone... that seems like the next logical step after libelling some of them all over the internet.

I did a quick check of some http://www.consumerresearch.ca/demographic.htm>greater Vancouver demographics and it says greater Vancouver has a population of around 2 million people, with a total of 29% who report Chinese, South Asian, Southeast Asian, West Asian, Korean or Japanese descent -- that's nearly 600,000 people. Amazing. I'm still trying to determine what percentage of the 340,000 or so Chinese people in greater Vancouver use the surname "Lee" but it's rough going because (as it turns out) it's a pretty common name.

This Charles Lee character sounds especially shady. I'm currently investigating how many of the Lee people in Vancouver are his evil, bastard, computer-programming progeny. When I'm done I'll post a breaking news bulletin to various press agencies and fill it with a bunch of rhetorical nonsense that insinuates the worst. Hopefully this doesn't suck too much of my free time... I've been spending most of my waking hours in hiding, writing an expose on small companies that list themselves on their local stock exchange.

Cheers,
JC

[BevHarris]

24. Tinfoil, you are quite right about the very high Chinese population

and the surname "Lee." One reason Vancouver has a particularly high Chinese population is that it did a sweetheart deal when Hong Kong was about to revert back to China. Can't remember, it was something like "if you bring $100,000 to invest we'll give you a visa," some deal like that.

While it is very true that there are thousands of people with last name "Lee" in Vancouver, the statistical probability that three of them would be working with the same outfit, when less than 20 people work there, without having any relationship is open to question.

Also, as you surely know, it is part of the Asian culture to bring family into the business, and both Charles Hong Lee and Sophia Lee say they are originally from Hong Kong.

Charles Hong Lee was indeed associated with all kinds of shady deals. A Lexis-Nexis search on him will net you all you need on that. Look him up in connection with Graye and Cooper and you'll get all you need. Run "cooper and macrotrends" -- though the Barron's article doesn't mention it, Charles Lee was an officer with both the bogus entertainment company and the Beverly Development or whatever it was. He is featured in an article about stealing from immigrants, relating to a scam where they collected $47 million for an investment that never happened.

He was also listed as an officer with Global Election Systems. It's the same Charles Lee because the articles cross reference him into ownership of each of the entities.

[AP]

10. Bad intent -- is it present and who had it? Some comments.

I haven't spent much time reading the BBV posts today, but I've read enought so that I think this comment is warranted (and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the first to make it).

From reading the Diebold memos, people might get the impression that there was no bad intent within the rank and file at Diebold. This doesn't mean there wasn't a conspiracy, or that somebody, somewhere didn't have the intention of exploiting the loopholes.

In fact, if there were a conspiracy, the last thing you'd want to have is a bunch of employees at a big, publicly traded corporation to have some clue that there was one.

The bottome line is that they system is totally hackable. You could be acting, as an organization, as if you want to cure most of the flaws. You could act like a rational profit-maximizing non-conspiratorial organization by letting a few flaws slip through and using software you know is bad slip through to implementation, and still not have the interntion of stealing the election.

However, think of it in these terms. If you were the one person internally who wanted to make sure that someone, somewhere COULD steal an election. You wouldn't be making overt attempts to do so within the organization so that a lot of people could figure it out. What you'd do is steal information and give it to someone OUTSIDE the organization, so that person could figure out the flaws. In fact, posting all these memos to the internet is a very good way to let people know just how to hack the software, without, for one minute, letting it appear that Diebold, on an organizational level, intended that anyone steal elections.

In fact, curiously, BBV might (unintentionally) help that one evil person withing Diebold spread the word to people who want to hack their machines by letting those people know were the flaws are. In fact, county and state governments using Diebold stuff should be aware that they're running even bigger risks with this information out there. (And, if you were a real conspiracy theorist, it might explain why Diebold doesn't try harder to get this stuff off the internet).

Hmmm. Just a crazy theory.

[BevHarris]

13. Except that it was DIEBOLD and Global who had FTP for six years

wide open -- the flaws being discussed in the memos are the same ones you find when you look at what's on the FTP site. They match. The memos are important because they document that they knew the flaws existed and did nothing to fix them.

[Cocoa]

11. ok, so at least you see what I was saying

that's a start.

But then you go on to say this:

Arrogant groupthink pervade these discussions. The voters are viewed as some kind of different species, separate and distinct from the Diebolders. Many times voters are discussed in the condescending and/or disparaging terms the technically proficient reserve for clueless users. Users are the great brainless, unwashed masses who are at best pitied, and at worst held in contempt.

This might be a place where you would provide examples. The example you did provide is exactly the quote I excerpted in the other thread, as evidence of exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes, the overwhelming portrait of Diebold is basically an evil company, but I've just presented counter-evidence to this. And to answer the counter-evidence you just state an impression without the examples.

I don't doubt that you can find examples that could be interpreted as arrogance. As someone in the computer field, I can tell you that it's a huge part of the field. There's even an SNL character that personifies this attitude.

But BBV is not that Diebold is arrogant, BBV is that there is proof that crimes were committed, so I don't see the point in discussing Diebold's arrogance.

And to tell you the truth, they don't seem overly arrogant to me. Not just the excerpt I posted, but overall.

[AP]

12. Cocoa, of all the issues out there, why are you so forgiving of

Diebold, especially given the weight of the evidence?

I can think of 50 other issues which I am more skeptical of than this one.

It seems to me that this issue is way past the point of skepticism.

Is there something in your personal history which makes you so intent on trying to see this in a light favorable to Diebold?

Do you own stock in the company? Do you know someone who works there?

[Cocoa]

15. because I don't think there's much weight to the evidence

It's probably no secret, but I think a lot of what is said about Diebold is garbage.

I agree there are red flags, but what I'm disputing is that there are smoking guns. If you don't see the difference between red flags and smmoking guns then what can I say?

[AP]

16. I, pehaps vainly, think my BS detector works pretty well...

...and I think there's a lot to these claims. So I think you have some more personal reasons for coming to such a differnt conclusion.

So that we could guage the callibration of your BS detectory, I would love to hear some of the other things you do or don't believe are true among the things discussed at DU, or in the field of politics generally.

Also, are there any personal influences of the kind I asked about above?

[Cocoa]

17. Skull and Bones

I've tangled with seventhson about this.

Various false rumors about Dems, such as a rumor that Tom Daschle blocked the Sept. 11 investigations.

When I first came to DU, there was a DUers personal account of some event that was almost certainly made up. I first signed up to join the "skeptics" and got pretty viciously attacked by the "believers." Most of the skeptics were newbies, and they were accused of being Freepers or disruptors, even though the skepticism was pretty well-founded.

There seems to be a reluctance among long-time DUers to call B.S. on a popular story. Just not worth the abuse, I guess.

[Eloriel]

18. Well, there ya go.

Depending on what EXACTLY you mean by "blocked," Tom Daschle DID cave to Dick Cheney's threats to him in Jan. 2002, and didn't open any sort of investigation on 9-11.

That was reported in the news. NYT in fact. By a reporter who was in Tom Daschle's office when it happened.

So much for your "false rumors."

Eloriel

[Cocoa]

48. continuing with the Daschle smear?

one thing that characterized the previous misinformation campaign against Daschle was that no one ever provided any links, and they all ignored the links I provided that proved them wrong.

It was like a game, imo. Not really about anything Daschle did, just an attempt to smear him. Why people wanted to smear him, I don't know. I did notice that it happened to coincide with a Rush Limbaugh campaign against Daschle.

[Kelvin Mace]

49. Cocoa, you're an interesting fellow...

You seem like a one man apologist for the right wing of the Democratic Party.

You are constantly questioning the posts of people with established reputation, demanding "proof" for every statement. When shown proof, you never admit error, you move on and attack a new person with a new set of allegations.

You accuse Eloriel of being a Rush Limbaugh accomplice, which she certainly is not, something patently obvious to anyone who has read even a handful of her posts.

The link you demand as proof can be found at:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/timeline/2002/reuters052702.html

"Both President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney urged Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle four months ago not to push for an investigation into the events of Sept. 11, Daschle said on Sunday."

The supposition that Daschle caved can be found in the fact that no investigation was launched until this year.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[Cocoa]

50. where were you last year?

How did you miss the Graham-Shelby investigation?

[Kelvin Mace]

51. Your response has nothing to do with my points:

You demand proof, proof is provided, you change the subject.

Damned if you didn't change the subject again.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[Cocoa]

52. your proof was "no investigation occurred until this year"

This year is 2003. The Graham-Shelby investigation happened in 2002, which was last year. Thus I've exactly addressed your point and your point is simply not true.

It couldn't be more untrue. You say no investigation happened, but it did, as everyone knows. The investigations were followed closely here at DU. Why would you deny this?

[Kelvin Mace]

53. Your pardon sir, my error.

The investigation still did not happen until well after Cheney called Daschle (almost eight months).

Daschle himself admits that Cheney called and told him "no investigation". No investigation took place at the time an investigation would have been most fruitful, immediately following the incident (no later than December 2001)

Daschle's craven counduct is legion:

Voted for unlimted power to wage war
Voted for the Patriot Act
Refused to fillibuster John Ashcroft

Democrats like Daschle we can do without.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[Cocoa]

54. standard operating procedure

"Blocked the investigation" has been refuted, so it's being morphed into "didn't start the investigation soon enough."

Again no evidence that the delay was caused by Daschle. Do you have any links to show what Daschle did to cause that delay? I remember being frustrated at the delay, and I didn't write Daschle, I wrote Bob Graham.

Please tell me why you blame Daschle for that.

[Kelvin Mace]

56. *sigh*

Jeebus!

You are the Senate Majority leader. In your hands rests the power to start these kinds of invetstigation. No one else in the party (in the Senate) can do this without your say so. Your colleagues call for an investigation. You don't start one because Dick Cheney told you not to.

You are blocking an investigation.

You seem to have a problem with patterns of conduct. I illustrated to you that Daschle has a record of collaborating with BushCo.

- Daschle was told not to investigate by Cheney.
- An invesitgation was demanded.
- No investigation took place until it came out the Cheney had demanded from Daschle no investigation take place.

But since Daschle does not stand up in public and say "I blocked the investigation!", he is innocent in your eyes.

Your logic is the kind that got O.J. off a murder rap.

- He had the motive.
- He had the opportunity.
- He had a prior historty of violent behaviour.
- He was overheard confessing.
- His blood was at the scene of the crime.
- He tried to flee the country.

BUT, since he didn't stand up in open court and say, "I killed them!", there is no *proof*.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[Cocoa]

57. evolution of a smear

Eloriel's original: "didn't open any sort of investigation into Sept. 11"

#49 "no investigation until this year"

#50 I point out the investigations last year

#51 You claim I'm changing the subject, lol

#52 I explain I'm not

#53 You concede this, then the smear morphs to "No immediate investigation."

#54 I ask for evidence of Daschle's involvement in the delay

#56 You repeat a variant of the smear in #53 "No investigation took place until it came out the Cheney had demanded from Daschle no investigation take place."



You're playing a game. I've played it before.

[AP]

59. If you are questioning the credibility of posters who do not post anony-

mously, it would only be fair if you explained why you are credible.

I'm not saying that you MUST tell us your name, but you should at least give enough information to make buttress your claims of credibility .

[Cocoa]

60. I'm not asking anyone to believe me

believe your eyes. The smearers said Daschle blocked the investigations. The posts are still there, in this very thread. Don't take my word for it, read those posts.

[AP]

61. I'm not really following this Daschle sub-text, but it's telling

that your entire problem with BBV is summed up in a tangential matter like this.

Projecting intentions on politicians based on their actions is something that happens every day here. It's a consequence of being a politician that your constituents project intentions based on your actions.

Personally, if anyone whom I feel is credible on BBV issues (ie, Bev and her publisher) cross the line into holding politicians accountable for their actions, I'm able to discern the vicissitudes of politics.

Now, let's get back onto the issues that matter.

When it comes down to writing software with holes in it, and using campaign donations to buy contracts with local governments, and corporate structures and ownership that do not result in a lot of confidence that these companies care about democracy, and politicians and companies which tell lies about certification of software, and obvious evidence of crappy product...let me get this straight...your objection is to something that someone said about Tom Daschle?

Telling.

[Cocoa]

65. Everything I do, I do for you, AP

in post #16, you wrote:

I would love to hear some of the other things you do or don't believe are true among the things discussed at DU...


And I never got a thanks or nothing. :pout:

[AP]

73. It seems like you do it for money...

smile.

[Cocoa]

74. compare your posts #16 and #61

In #16, you ask me what else I'm skeptical about.

I answer the Daschle smear among other things.

You don't respond until post #61, where you find it "telling" that I'm going off on tangents, not related to BBV.

What does this "tell" you, other than I'm trying to engage in a normal discussion? You asked, I answered.

One thing it tells me, is that when you asked, you weren't really interested in the answer. I would call that dishonest.

[Kelvin Mace]

62. You are twisting my remarks....

#49 "no investigation until this year"

#50 I point out the investigations last year

#51 You claim I'm changing the subject, lol

I then admitted my error and corrected my statement, something I have yet to see you do in our Diebold discussions when you have challenged me to provide evidence of arrogance at Diebold and I did.

#53 You concede this, then the smear morphs to "No immediate investigation."

No, he blocked the investigation for over a half year. If you don't investigate and don't let other investigate, then you are an obstacle.

You know what? I think you have made it plain what your "game" is.

I have tried to be civil with you since I thought you were genuinely concerned about fairness, but it is apparent this is not your goal.

I will waste no further time on you.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[BevHarris]

14. Could you please quit defining Black Box Voting

You are telling the person who actually coined the term "black box voting" what black box voting means, and your definition is incorrect.

Black Box Testing: You run a logic & accuracy test, put some ballots through, see if it counts correctly, certify it as sound

White Box Testing: You examine the source code line by line

This is from an interview by Arnold B. Urken, the founder of the first voting machine certification lab. He objected to the refusal of ES&S (then called AIS) to allow white box testing, and he refused to certify them because of it.

Black Box Voting is a term coined by David Allen, which refers to voting on machines which we are not allowed to examine, that are not open source, using code that is considered proprietary.

You can tell us your own definition if you want, but label it as your own definition and for heaven's sake don't say it is ours. David Allen is the publisher of the book "Black Box Voting" and the owner of blackboxvoting.com, and I am the author of Black Box Voting and the owner of blackboxvoting.org, and we have a very clear idea of what we mean when we use the term that we created.

Next time you announce to others what "BBV" is, speak for yourself and identify it thusly.

Bev

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

25. absolutely

Cocoa has no right to define "BBV". (Shame on you Cocoa!) Sadly for you, Cocoa is right on the mark about pretty much everything else.

It would have been more correct for Cocoa to have pointed out that (bad grammar aside) "Black Box Voting is a term coined by David Allen, which refers to voting on machines which we are not allowed to examine, that are not open source, using code that is considered proprietary" and that it's a cause that's been taken up largely by a bunch of admittedly uninformed people, led by a few more-informed key individuals who have been shown to shamelessly lie and steal in order to promote their agenda and sell non-existent books.

JC

[BevHarris]

27. Mods, remove this when you remove the above

I know you'd love to have the thread locked, but a more appropriate response would be to delete your post. (And this, if mods want to)

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

28. sadly it's not libel

I honestly don't care whether this thread is locked or not, I actually think they're great. I'm sad that I haven't been following all the recent hilarity.

As you're well aware, I can quote various "inaccurate claims" (I choose to use the term "lies", so sue me) you've made on this topic in the past, some of which you yourself have quietly retracted after they achieved "meme" status in the ongoing BBV discussion. Pointing it out is assuredly not libellous.

You and your compatriots have taken to posting liberally from a set of stolen email archives. Pointing out the theft isn't libellous either (and yes, changing your original story to say they came from a patriotic Diebold insider instead of an outside hacker counts as lying too).


I'm aware that you like to try and have my posts removed because they embarrass you. Good luck with that, I'm sure you can find a friendly moderator without too much effort. But I haven't libelled you even the tiniest little bit, and moreover you seem pretty sensitive about the subject given the extent to which you yourself libel people like this "Sophia Lee" character on a daily basis. :shrug:


JC

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Would you like to specify who you are calling

a "liar" and "thief" sir?

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[BevHarris]

30. He just wants it locked.

Your thread is a good one, David, and worth considering. Don't give the ammunition. Just go back to the issue, which is:

Diebold: Ethics.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

31. to repeat

I don't care whether the thread is locked or not. You are (as is your practice) putting words in my mouth, which I've asked you time and time and time and time again to stop doing.

JC

[Kelvin Mace]

32. I excerpted your quote....

since I was addressing the questions you raised.

but I've just presented counter-evidence to this. And to answer the counter-evidence you just state an impression without the examples.

I was presenting an observation, not an impression. As to providing examples, I did not feel that it was necessary to establish my credibility on each such observation.

But, since you insist:

------------------------------------------------------------------
Here we find posted a joke ridiculing the elderly, Cuban-Americans (described as "banana boat bums") who are told to "learn freakin' English."

http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/salestalk.w3archive/200011/msg00002.html


"Is there a way to have a "demonstration loop" that does not allow a user to "go back too far" and end up outside the demonstration area? Something really simple and idiot-proof."

http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/rcr.w3archive/200205/msg00025.html


"I've threatened to put a password on the .mdb before when dealers/customers/support have done stupid things with the GEMS database structure using Access."

http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/support.w3archive/200110/msg00122.html


"I just hope that the actual voters in PA are as stupid as the people giving us this information on how to vote, so they are not confused."

http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/rcr.w3archive/200005/msg00043.html


"The suggestion, from Duval County, is that the on a two sided ballot, it would be nice to reject a ballot that was not voted on one side or the other, presumably inserted by the ignorant, uninformed, or elderly voter, that only voted one side of the ballot."

http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/support.w3archive/200110/msg00099.html


"We have too many politicians in Maryland. Their job, in their opinion, is challenge whether or not the sky is blue. Once they have enough excitement over the debate, they request money to create a new government agency to study the issue."

http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/bugtrack.w3archive/200206/msg00000.html

Here they are defending TS voting machines:

"Isn't the county full of senior voters?Social Security and Medicare are big issues there, right?Is the county all retirement communities?Is the typical voter there an elderly white female liberal?"

http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/support.w3archive/200203/msg00041.html

---------------------------------------------------------------

Shall I go on? I can provide dozens more.


But BBV is not that Diebold is arrogant, BBV is that there is proof that crimes were committed, so I don't see the point in discussing Diebold's arrogance.

As the person who coined the term "black box voting", I believe I am the one who gets to define what it means, which is:

Any voting system in which the mechanism for processing and/or tabulating the vote are hidden from the voter, and/or the mechanism lacks a tangible record of the vote cast.

BBV can be used to facilitate fraud, but it has nothing to do with any conspiracies. Of course, I have no control over how others use the term.

And to tell you the truth, they don't seem overly arrogant to me. Not just the excerpt I posted, but overall.

ar·ro·gance (noun): a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims.

I think Diebold certainly qualifies as arrogant under the "presumptious claims" part.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

35. you people crack me up

Your first example ( http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/salestalk.w3archive/200011/msg00002.html ) also states that Congress unanimously voted to eject Florida from the United States of America, and attributes the "banana boat" comment to Senator Hillary Clinton. In a sane person, this really has to raise a few suspicious flags.

For the pathologically stupid (and I'll let each reader choose whether or not to include him or herself in that category) the post to which you refer is clearly some kind of JOKE. It's most likely some piece of spam that the person thought was funny and posted to the support list. How sad is it that this requires explaining? You people really hurt your own cause with your total lack of critical thinking.

Your other examples are pretty weak, there's nothing really offensive there.


JC

[Kelvin Mace]

36. You don't read, do you?

For the pathologically stupid (and I'll let each reader choose whether or not to include him or herself in that category) the post to which you refer is clearly some kind of JOKE.

I specifically identified the posting in question as a joke. I used it as indicative of the attitude toward users/voters.

The test of integrity here is whether you admit error and apologize.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

38. no apology forthcoming

You posted what was an obvious re-post of a spam joke and used it as example and evidence to support your original contention that Diebold is both amoral and unethical.

No apology is warranted, and none will be forthcoming. You should apologize for a) trying to deceive everyone, and b) doing such a poor job of it.

JC

[Kelvin Mace]

39. Again, you deliberately ignore the truth...

to support your original contention that Diebold is both amoral and unethical.

Wrong again. the contention under discussion was:

The voters are viewed as some kind of different species, separate and distinct from the Diebolders. Many times voters are discussed in the condescending and/or disparaging terms the technically proficient reserve for clueless users. Users are the great brainless, unwashed masses who are at best pitied, and at worst held in contempt.

Where in the paragraph above do the words "amoral" or "unethical" appear.

Folks, I think Fredda is back. I ask the mods to check into this possibility.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[hunter]

41. Who or what is "JC?"

I'm just curious, before I go to bed...

Heh, no, it's not "Just Curious"

I'm pretty sure of that.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. I suspect it is our friend Fredda

a disruptor who was also impervious to logic, reason and fact and also, I begin to suspect, a paid shill.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

43. impervious to logic?

The entire BBV conspiracy theory you espouse is utterly impervious to logical analysis. As per standard BBV operating procedure you refuse to even consider anything except your own pre-conceived conspiracy theories, and you dismiss anyone expressing even the slightest hint of doubt as a disruptor and/or a paid shill. It's impossible to engage in any kind of intelligent discourse on the subject... you're posting stolen spam to support your case for god's sake. :eyes:

JC

[Kelvin Mace]

47. Now I know you are a fake...

you're posting stolen spam to support your case for god's sake.

No real programmer would ever misuse the term "spam" in such an assinine fashion.

You are just the latest in a line of shills who show up attacking posters critical of Diebold.

Of coursem you will protest your innocence, so let's get that out of the way now. Post your real name and address and state who you work for and we'll verify your your claim.

Until then, my suggestion to all is ignore this poster from now on.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[AP]

55. Posters like THP and Cocoa make me more likely to believe BBV is right

If BBV were so wrong, it would be ignored. If it's on the right track, it would make sense that people like Cocoa and THP pop up to try to discredit it. The tone of their posts is exactly the tone you'd expect that kind of discrediting to take.

Incidentally, the "stolen spam" is EXACTLY the kind of evidence used in courts every day to establish the evidence to prove elements of claims every day, all over the world. And characterizing it the way THP tries to is exactly the sort of thing the person hurt by it would do if there were no other way to deal with the truth contained with it.

[peacetalksforall]

20. I think everyone should be listened to

whether they are techies, politicos, citizens, or those who are freaked out by this.

What is never consistent is that some never want to believe in conspiracies and some believe too much.

We can never know both sides of the story even under oath, but a person can place the event within historical and behaviorial context and make an initial judgement to determine whether they want to be suspicious. If the right wing of the supreme court (I can't spell it with capitals anymore) went to the length they did to crown a king for our nation and if they hadn't been moving to where they are today for over 40 years, then we could pooh-pooh everything. They set themselves up for suspicion by their history. Why should they come off their arrogant throne and do something clean after all these years?

It is true that what stinks won't stink to those who have the power and the need to place a real or imaginery clothespin on their nose.

It is true that the right wing media is the target audience in exposing all of this and even though the right wing is a propaganda machine, they are going to pull the old journalistic lingo out of their mouths and are going to demand facts - the thing they disregard most of the time in their propagandist role, the things they are too committed to avoid the rest of the time.

Regrettably, these discussions are going to cause these companies time to create their excuses, possibly phoney documents, and their strategy for defending or lying their way out.

Everyone should be heard.

[peacetalksforall]

21. It is ironic that the right wing media can

hang and burn an indicted or unindicted citizen on worldwide television without knowledge of any facts. They can drum their Murdoch and GE drums without regard for anyone's rights, but if the story is about them, they are going to demand facts. There is no one more expert at dismissing as irrelevant anything critical of their cabal leaders, beliefs, and war strategy.

[Kelvin Mace]

40. Agreed...

whether they are techies, politicos, citizens, or those who are freaked out by this.

I am prepared to listen to any number of learned opinions. But I will not stand by while people are called liars by disruptors.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[ComerPerro]

26. The Question at Diebold: What are morality and ethics?

eom

[Resistance Is Futile]

33. Interesting

"It is not the code that is the problem. Electronic DRE sufferes from one critical difference from optical scan or other paper based systems. Paper is a write-once medium. Memory cards are read-write."

Haven't these guys heard of OTP EPROMs? Hell, haven't these guys even heard of CD-Rs?

There are ways to make electronic audit trails that are intrinsically resistant to tampering. No one in their right mind should trust their vote to a machine designed by people who are either too ignorant to know how this is done or to arrogant to think that it is important.

[Kelvin Mace]

37. Agreed,

but the problem of people being able to see their vote recorded in a non-digital format must still be addressed.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[uhhuh]

46. kick

nt

[Cocoa]

58. how are the ethics and morality at Plan Nine Publishing?

hey, a kick's a kick, no such thing as bad publicity, even if you have to smear a dem senator.

Kick for the patriotic book sellers/cigar salesmen. :kick:

[Kelvin Mace]

63. If you have an accusation....

state it plainly, sir.

I am not hiding behind a false identity, safe from being held accountable for my remarks, you are.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[Cocoa]

67. I think it's obvious

I have always thought that much of this discussion about an otherwise valid issue has been pretty badly unethical and dishonest, particularly the reckless smear tactics.

Now I'm pointing out the irony that you are talking about ethics.

[Kelvin Mace]

69. I re-iterate

it is easy to hide behind a false identity.

You will not reveal yourself, thus you make my point.

Folks, I suggest wasting no more time with the Fredda.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

68. If you spam them, they will come

I don't think anyone's accused you of hiding behind a false identity, sir... you spam the forum with your real name and a link to your comic book publishing empire several times a day.

Here's a kick for all the patriotic comic salesmen/publishers/janitors!

JC

[Kelvin Mace]

64. Cocoa appears to be following the Fredda clones pattern....

Start of friendly and reasonable, become more belligerant as time goes on. Waste people's time. NEVER reveal your identity.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
1237 Elon Place
High Point, NC 27263
http://www.plan9.org

[Gordon25]

66. Yeah, and here's...

...a :kick: for unpatriotic skeptics who don't care about the integrity of our vote or the future of our country, but prefer to argue on the side of foreign corporations writing secret election software our elected officials can't examine; who run uncertified code in elections; and who know their GEMS program can be hacked and the audit log changed to hide any evidence of such hacking and don't want to fix it.

Thanks for all your help, Cocoa.

Gordon25

[Cocoa]

70. that's a poor descritption of me

You're describing me that way because you don't like me.

And your thanks is sarcastic, I can tell. You're not really thanking me at all are you.

[Gordon25]

72. Thanks for explaining my motives to me.

Sure glad I finally met someone who can tell me why I do things.

And all this time I thought I was describing you that way because that is the way you act.

Foolish me.

But my thanks are real. Every time I check and find out a BBV post is no longer on page one, I can count on you having put something in the thread that demands a response. So I really do thank you for your help. Honest.

Gordon25

[DWright]

71. kick

Here's a kick to the top for all the brave patriots who are trying to stop these machines. As to the trolls and naysayers, it seems obvious to me that there is an agenda at work that has nothing to do with counting our votes. The scroll bar is very helpful sometimes.

[PATRICK]

75. Agree

And it is more evidence of the controversial comparisn to Nazi Germany and the collusion of the populace, although you don't need that extreme example to see human nature manipulated toppdown. We have vast numbers of smart educated people who don't see the cliff we are approaching, won't though it is there in the open, dismiss those who disturb their blindness.

I was struck by details about the Warren Commission concerning all the young professionals whose FIRST or foremost concern was their career advancement potential in this high profile case. That about summed up the skew for me. The concern for justice was assumed or not there. They trusted the authority above easily.