Wonderful rebuttal to Bill Cosby's comments last year

[UdoKier]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/07/DDGQ0D3HF91.DTL

When lower-class blacks took a hit from Bill Cosby, author Dyson came out swinging in their defense
Jason B. Johnson, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 7, 2005

Comedian Bill Cosby sparked a impassioned public debate when he took low-income blacks to task last year for being bad parents and letting their kids run wild.

The story has receded from the front pages of newspapers and television talk shows, but author Michael Eric Dyson is determined to continue the debate. In fact, he's just written a book on the subject, "Is Bill Cosby Right? Or Has the Black Middle Class Lost Its Mind?" (Basic Civitas Books).

The sad thing is, I think Cosby could give valuable advice to poor blacks, if he wasn't so focused on negative stereotypes and a real willful ignorance of the challenges poor blacks face. The Huxtable kids on his shows had advantages most poor blacks (and a lot of poor whites) could never imagine. As a person who did pull himself up from rags to riches, it would be great if he would give free seminars in communities of color to give his insights on how to break through the barriers and succeed in what is still a very unfair society.

But until he can acknowledge the fact that countless black communities that once had healthy working classes, with well-paid jobs and homeownership have been decimated not by irresponsible blacks, but by American industry, which has abandoned them in favor of cheaper labor overseas, he probably won't be very welcome.

It's too bad. I genuinely like Bill Cosby. I only wish his wealth and fame hadn't made him so blind to the reality so many people in this country face. I once met him at the T Bar M Tennis ranch in Texas as a kid in the 70s. My dad played tennis with him. At the time, I thought nothing of it, but looking back on it, Cosby seemed quite comfortable in an environment that was upscale and decidedly all-white, for whatever that's worth.

[Warpy]

1. he had a point, as does Dyson

The fact is that if you go to a job interview looking ghetto and talking ghetto, you'll make sure somebody else gets the job. That's where the prejudice comes in, and Cosby was right about that.

Dyson also had a point, that there are far fewer jobs available even if you go in dressed like a banker and talking the Queen's English, you're not likely to get the job, either. American workers have simply been declared superfluous, unable to compete against third world labor paid in third rate currencies.

[UdoKier]

2. Cosby is right to a point.

But he's full of crap if he thinks all poor blacks act, dress and talk ghetto. A lot of people do everything right, follow all the rules, but still don't make it. That goes for poor whites too.

[bryant69]

3. It's one of those questions - how many people really fit a stereotype

At least a few people have to fit a stereo type for it to become accepted. But how many people ever fit that particular stereotype? Enough that it is an explanation? Or enough that people can use it as an excuse for ongoing racism?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[misanthrope]

33. I encounter people...

...constantly who try to emulate stereotypes of all sorts.

[H2O Man]

5. Since he never said

anything remotely like "he thinks all poor blacks ...", there would seem to be little serious to consider as a response.

[UdoKier]

7. He implied that that's the only reason poor blacks aren't getting ahead.

And that's just BS.

[H2O Man]

9. What you are saying

simply is not true. He never said or implied that.

[UdoKier]

14. Some of Cosby's comments...

"We got too many young girls who don't know how to parent, turning themselves into parents. Ladies and gentlemen, our little eight-year-old boys, nine-year-old boys, having erections and only acting out that which they see and hear on some CD. They're acting that out and they don't know the damage that they are doing when they rape some little girl nine years old and what they have done to her whole life. It's time to stop!"

This is a common occurrence?


"Ladies and gentlemen, it hurts, it hurts, because these children don't know about their poor mothers and fathers, they don't know about how there was no done deal ,"

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of them realize full well that the deal is still not done, by a long shot.


There was validity in a lot of what he said, but it seems like a slap in the face to all the poor black people who follow the rules, do the right thing and still get nowhere. There was no respect for them in any of his comments, leaving the impression that they must be bums too.

[Tomee450]

22. He qualified his comments later.

He admitted on Tavis Smiley's show that he should have said "some blacks." All he did with his comments was provide cover for racists.

[UdoKier]

24. Yeah, I think that's what galled me most about his comments.

It was an excuse for assholes like Hannity and O'Liely to come on and say "See! Cosby said the problem is with miscreant blacks, not our utopian capitalist society! Damn blacks! USA! USA! USA! Just get your asses in gear like all of us honest, hardworking, white republicans!" (paraphrased)

[Tomee450]

10. Cosby painted with a broad brush.

I strongly doubt if most blacks, even those in the inner cities, appear for job interviews looking ghetto. He said a lot of things that were just plain ridiculous. Most of the people I know put on appropriate clothing and have their hair done neatly when they apply for jobs. Unfortunately, Bill Cosby does a disservice when he makes ridiculous statements. Because he is a respected black celebrity, many people will believe the stereotypes.

[Just Me]

4. I still love Bill Cosby. He lost his son!!!

I give him a break because he has been thrown into a state of total turmoil. I also give him time to work through that turmoil.

Has his success had some impact upon his memory and his vision? Well, of course.

He is in a box.

Nevertheless, I'd rather reach out to the man who became blinded by elements beyond his control than beat him up.

Besides, there are few who wouldn't feel quite comfortable in being very fortunate.

If you believe hard times test strength of character,...you are wrong.

[Jersey Ginny]

90. Didn't his son get killed by a black man?

I think that is what I recall.

[Tomee450]

92. No, his son was

killed by an Eastern European immigrant, Russian I believe.

[foo_bar]

100. Ukrainian

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94100&page=1

[redqueen]

6. I'm curious...

Did anyone crucify Bob Herbert for pointing out the significant difference in the amount of books different races of children have access to at home? Does that make him a racist?

If there really is a problem there, what does it help to ignore it?

[H2O Man]

8. A rational point.

Malcolm X made the same points that Bill Cosby made.

[spindoctor]

12. Beat me to it

Of course Cosby has a point and this debate is worth having.

[redqueen]

13. Qui Bono?

What benefit is gained from keeping this discussion stalled with hastily flung claims of racism?

[spindoctor]

23. Precisely

We could discuss the racial aspects of his comments on a side note, but first I'd like to see his argument debunked that non-conformance to the common social denominator will work in your benefit when trying to get ahead of the game.

[misanthrope]

35. Bingo!..

...Does that mean Malcolm was a shill or a pawn?

[H2O Man]

39. It's funny that the whiners

don't attack Malcolm, who addressed the same basic issues that Cosby did. Or Muhammad Ali, who says that the ghetto isn't the neighborhood people live in, it's the people who live in the neighborhood. The Nation of Islam brought the same message as Cosby. It's a good message.

[redqueen]

42. That's interesting.

I wonder why they don't attack Malcom X or Muhammad Ali.

How bizarre...

[H2O Man]

43. Many, many Americans

find it more comfortable to define their lives as being miserable as a result of being a victim of circumstances beyond their control, rather than taking responsibility for making things better.

[Tomee450]

49. Would you ask that question of poor whites

or is it only with the failings of black people that you are concerned. Millions of whites live in poverty, are in jail, taking drugs and engaging in other deviant behavior. Millions are on welfare, Medicaid and food stamps. Why don't you accuse them of not acting responsibly and taking control of their lives? There are whites in this country who have the same failings as black people yet certain people only focus on what blacks do wrong. White people do not have to overcome obstacles such as racial discrimination. What is the excuse for the whites of Appalachia to continue being in poverty for decades. Are they also irresponsible? Why is it that you and others never comment about the crime in the rural areas,sometimes involving gangs. Why don't you express equal disdain for residents of small towns who become involved with drugs such as meth and cocaine.

For your information, racial discrimination against black people is real, they face it everyday. Yet, even as they protest against racism most black people get up ever day, go to work, abide by the law and try to make a decent life for their families in a country that has always been hostile to them. Most blacks aren't sitting around saying,"poor me, poor me." There are thousands of black students in colleges and universities. There are millions of black people who own their own homes and other assets. The government did not give them those assets, they earned them, overcoming obstacles not faced my members of the majority community. Some people love to brand black people for what a few do. They don't apply that same standard to the majority community. Their deviants aren't considered the measure of the entire population. I know a lot of poor people who do not fit the picture Cosby painted. He has made a lot of enemies. They are so outraged at his comments that they no longer watch him on television. If Cosby is going to talk about deviant and irresponsibility behavior, he should direct those comment to all of society, not just to the African American community.

[H2O Man]

55. Wow.

No kidding? Thanks for the "information."

[Tomee450]

57. No suprise at your response.

Typical of a person of a certain mindset. The true character of person often comes out when the subject involves black people.

[H2O Man]

61. Right.

That's why I'm saying that Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali have said exactly what Cosby is saying. Malcolm and Muhammad are people of character.

[Tomee450]

63. True,Malcolm did have character

but the same cannot be said of the person who can always be counted on to side with people who attack black folks while dismissing informaton that clearly shows others deserving of the same criticism. Malcolm lost his life fighting for blacks. While he may have preached to blacks(and from him that was acceptable) he never let the powerful of this country off the hook. Neither did Martin Luther King, who said America handed the black man a check marked "insufficient funds." A red flag is raised when I encounter people who never fail to join with those ready to criticize black people. They even adopt the words of the right wingers, calling those with whom they disagree, whiners. Says a lot about such an individual.

[H2O Man]

67. Amazing.

Please document that "whiner" is a right-wing word.

[Tomee450]

81. It is a word in great

use by the right wingers when discussing minorities. Surprising to see so called progressives adopting that tactic.

[H2O Man]

87. This is your proof?

It's also a word used by the democratic left to describe right-wingers. Whining is their language.

[jeffrey_X]

68. This always reminds me of one of Malcolm's quotes....

At least I think it was one of his quotes...."If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

[H2O Man]

71. Indeed it is.

Malcolm said the same thing that Cosby is saying. It's amazing that anyone could sincerely call Cosby's statement anti-black.

[jeffrey_X]

75. Not sure I follow you here....

Is Cosby part of the solution? If so, what is he doing besides calling out a portion of the poor black community? If so, what is his solution?

[H2O Man]

78. I think Bill

has invested in the poor black communities in many ways. I would think that should be considered part of the solution. I do not think that he has a moral obligation to avoid telling the truth. Do you?

[jeffrey_X]

83. Not sure...but what is his motivation?

I mentioned in earlier posts, that I doubt his comments really hit home with anyone he was talking about.

[H2O Man]

85. I don't think

that it is safe to assume that. For instance, it requires one to believe that this was the only audience that Cosby has ever discussed this with. That's thin ice to be standing on.

Does it give racist people something else to whine about? Sure. Big deal. The racist republicans are going to whine about poor blacks with or without Cosby. Thus, I do not see them as a significant part of the discussion. If others here do, that's their bag.

Things have gotten tougher for poor people in the past ten years. Yet, if current trends appear to be an indication, it will continue to get a heck of a lot tougher ... and that's for all poor people. And the sad truth is, more and more will be put into penal institutions, which are becoming privatized forced labor camps. I'm sure you know, as well as I do, that more black men between the ages of 18 and 30 are either in jail or prison, than are in colleges and universities. And a huge percentage are on probation or on parole.

Is this in large part because of trends beyond their control? Neither you nor I are going to say, "hell no! it's something inheritantly black." But do blacks as a whole have any control? Any responsibility? Do rich blacks need to be aware of their relationship to those in prison? The middle class? How about extended families? Nuclear families? Individuals?

Where do you see the line being drawn? Is a poor person (any race) who sells cocaine a victim? A snake? Both? Is a poor person who abandons his/her offspring a victim? Does being a victim of systematic violence grant license for interpersonal violence? Is Bill Cosby a traitor for addressing this? Or would it be "better" to just remain silent?

[jeffrey_X]

86. Great points...

Those are some great points and some great questions....the right questions that need to be asked and answered.

Not sure he should have remained silent, but I do think he should have chosen a more positive approach. If he really wanted to make an impact he could have taken this message/concept and turned it into a grass roots effort, rather than shouting it from afar. I mean, if he really wanted to make difference you think he would follow through and see if his words have or have not resonated with his target audience.

[H2O Man]

88. I think it would be

short-sighted to think that Bill Cosby doesn't do more than give speeches. If people are really interested in what else he does, they can investigate for themselves. If they take a serious look, they will see that the complaints about him are not warrented.

Again, he did not say anything that Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali haven't said.

[eridani]

93. It's not just more comfortable, it's more functional--

--if you do actually suffer from sex, race and/or class prejudice. Stephanie Coontz had a secondary reference in her book The Way We Never Were about a study comparing black men who thought that racism had a significant effect on their life chances to black men who thought it was mostly about individual effort. The latter were more likely to abandon educational goals or leave their families in the case of unemployment. The authors concluded that accurately facing racist reality helped black men cope with it.

[H2O Man]

95. Only an idiot

would think that NOT "accurately facing racist reality" would be an advantage.

[eridani]

103. True dat.

However, Cosby is joining with the individualist crowd in dismissing that reality.

[H2O Man]

104. Not at all.

Cosby in no way dismissed that reality. He addresses it far more accurately than those who choose to twist and misrepresent what he said, especially those who enjoy victimhood. There are many people in America who find so much comfort in misery that they resent when a person like Cosby treats them with respect.

[eridani]

106. Accurate self analysis of their misery is not comfort

And it helps them stay in school and stick by their families.

[H2O Man]

107. Right.

It's the innaccurate analysis that is the problem. Advocating weakness never gets people ahead. As pointed out, under the leadership of Malcolm X, thousands of people made an absolutely accurate analysis of the prejudice in American society, and made great strides forward. They did that by recognizing their individual responsibility -- to themselves, to their family, and to black society in America. Malcolm spoke harshly, in fact much more so than Bill Cosby, about the social ills that were destroying so many black families. Malcolm wasn't mentally handcuffed by any silly study that may have suggested taking individual responsibility would harm black families. He confronted people with the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may have been for them.

[eridani]

108. Bottom line

Black men who see themselves as victims of racism are more likely to stay in school and less likely to abandon their families.

[Tomee450]

17. Bill Cosby engaged in racial

stereotyping. Just think about what he did. He criticized blacks for using African sounding names preferring that they give their children European names. Blacks have an African heritage, what is wrong with them wanting to give their children names they think sound African. Most white American are of European descent. How many give their children African sounding names? I would guess very few. Cosby also talked about blacks standing around on street corners. I would prefer they not do that but how is that different than white students who hang around at malls, are so disruptive, that they are banned unless accompanied by adults. He talked about black men and domestic abuse. Are only black men domestic abusers? I think not. What Cosby did was single blacks out as society's deviants. Everything he accused poor blacks of doing is also done in other communities yet he made the face of pathology a black face. Many people find that very offensive.

[UdoKier]

21. One point on the names...

There are many beautiful African-derived names, and they are great. Malik, Aisha, etc. I don't see what's the problem.

But there are a very few folks who give their kids weird names like Aquatrishalicious or something way out there. Probably not a good asset for your child's future career, but again, these are the rarity, not the norm...

But I'm sick of conformist white yuppie names like Aidan and Madison too. Why do they all copy each other?

[redqueen]

27. What Cosby did was give advice to blacks...

That doesn't mean that he thinks those problems are solely restricted to the black community. That's a logical leap that makes no sense whatsoever.

Ragging on the names is stupid. I see his point, but I still disagree.

[Tomee450]

28. What Cosby did was preach to blacks

in a demeaning manner. No one wants to listen to someone who thinks he is superior. The tone of his comments were appalling and he made it appear that the problems in the black community were all of its own making. The situation of poor blacks is complex deserving of calm, sincere discussion. How far to you get with people if you deride them for the names they call their children, you attack them for doing exactly what others are doing. If Cosby wanted to apply those criticism to the other communities, why didn't he do so. What he did is tell the whole world that poor blacks are nothing but deviants.

Are blacks responsible for the poor schools their children must attend? Are they responsible for many of those schools being overcrowded, in disrepair, without enough computers, current books, adequate lab equipment? Are they responsible for the fact that drugs have been brought into their communities, ravaging them? And whose fault is it that businessmen prefer to locate their businesses in the suburbs where there is often no public transportation to get the blacks to jobs. Whose fault is it that black children have a high infant mortality rates, that blacks are denied loans to repair their homes. Whose fault is it that city services often decline when neighborhoods become predominately black. There are many problems blacks encounter, not of their own making. Now those people who do not want any policies that would aid poor blacks can use Cosby's words to support their opposition. His remarks were mean spirited and unwise.

[redqueen]

30. Semantics.

Some of his comments were unwise.

Some were on-target.

What serves the black community more... self-pity and rigtheous anger about the unwise comments, or reflection and action on the issues that he correctly identified?

[Tomee450]

37. Just more right wing rhetoric.

One thing black people have never done is engage in self pity. Many have achieved a measure of success despite the obstacle they had to overcome.

All you do is engage in racial stereotyping. There is a vast difference between being preachy and just giving advise. Cosby could have given advise without demeaning people. And he could have helped his community without holding it to ridicule before the world. The comments you claim were on target could have been applied to members of every community. All have people who prefer not to work, commit crimes, and engage in other unsavory behavior. Cosby acted as if such behavior only happened in black communities. He was wrong. If he is going to give advise, give it to all poor people as they have similar problems. Certain people are deeply prejudiced against African Americans and are just delighted to see black people support their racist views.

[redqueen]

41. What right-wing rhetoric?

Where?

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that NO black people have EVER engaged in self-pity? Seriously... and you accuse Cosby of generalizing.

Look, there ARE problems which seem to occur MAINLY in the poor black community. That's not Cosby's fault. Do you also label Bob Herbert of the NYT a racist, for pointing out that poor black children have fewer books than their poor peers of other races?

I'm not defending all Cosby's comments. I'm saying there's a discussion that needs to happen about these issues. It's a pity more can't just ridicule and ignore the crap he said and then move on to addressing the real issues. You think these problems aren't unique to the poor black community. Cosby thinks otherwise. I'd have to see statistical data before I'd agree either way.

[Tomee450]

50. Black people don't have time

to engage in self-pity. They are too busy trying to overcome racism and make a living. Do you really believe that African Americans could have survived in this society if all they did was sit around feeling sorry for themselves? Jim Crow was hard but you found African Americans going to their menial jobs, having parties, laughing and dancing, going to church, visiting their friends. In other words, doing the best they could to survive under cruel circumstances. And even if there are a few blacks who do engage in self-pity, so what? Don't whites also engage in self=pity? Don't members of other groups do likewise? Sometimes even the wealthy feel sorry for themselves.

If there are certain problems that occur mainly in black ares, can that always be attributed to deviancy or irresponsible behavior? Blacks aren't responsible for poor schools, poor city services when an area turns black, lack of jobs. Poverty, after all, is a lack of money and poverty can cause a lot of problems. Some people want to blame blacks for many of the problems not of their making.

As Dyson said and with which I agree, Cosby attacked the vulnerable, the people who can't fight back. Why didn't he scold the black middle class for abandoning poor blacks? Why didn't he scold the former owner of BET for presenting the kind of programming that contributes to immoral behavior. Decent people don't even want to look at BET because of the vulgar videos. He won't attack because the former owner is of his class, a billionaire. Cosby is also a hypocrite. He talks about immoral behavior while engaging in same. He has cheated on his wife a number of time. If one expects to be taken seriously when speaking about immoral behavior, one should be relatively clean himself. Cosby is no role model.

Blaming the victim is an easy way out. It takes the responsibility off people who really have the power to change situations but do not wish to do so. As far as Bob Herbert is concerned, I greatly admire him, much more than I do Cosby. I don't know why he, or anyone else should be surprised that there are fewer books in the homes of poor blacks. Books cost money which many do not have. If it comes down to a choice of buying a book or paying your gas bill, I think most people will pay the bill.

[redqueen]

51. Why all the hyperbole?

Why do you assume every comment you read is about EVERYONE? Don't you realize that's nearly NEVER the case?

I ask very simple questions, yet they're continually ignored. I'll take that to mean you're not really interested in a conversation.

One point I do want to address is about books. There are these things called libraries, see...

Have fun with your victimhood.

[Tomee450]

58. I stated my facts which

you cannot refute. I guess many people are quite comfortable with their racial prejudice and will continue ignoring truth in favor of blaming the victim. That way nothing has to be done to correct problems, after all, those people brought in on themselves.

[redqueen]

64. No, you launched into a tirade, and attacked a bunch of strawmen.

Congrats.

[zanne]

45. I heartily, agree, Tomee450.

Reading alot of these posts, it all sounds so self-congratulatory. How many times have we heard far-right extremists say "I made it big; so can you if you try". This argument has the double effect of 1) Putting down millions of people as an "annoyance"
2) Making them feel VERY GOOD about themselves
And it's so easy to do.

[redqueen]

52. Agree about what?

Did I say "I made it big, so can you if you try"? No, I didn't.

Did I say ANYTHING that you would characterize as "right wing rhetoric"? If so, what?

What on earth are you talking about?

And will ANYONE bitching about Cosby's remakrs PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD address HERBERT'S?!

[Tomee450]

62. I don't care whether

it's Herbert or Cosby. If blacks are singled out as engaging in behavior not seen in other communities, I will object. Why single out blacks for not having books, a lot of poor whites don't bother to read, either. I know poor blacks who do read. If they can't buy books they borrow from others or get them from thrift shops. My anger at Cosby and others is that they made it appear that blacks are the only people having difficulties and that simply is not the case.
There are all kinds of gangs in this country,African American, Latino,Asian, white but whose is the face of the gang banger? It's the African American.

Poor blacks are being unfairly tarnished. A lot of the problems in the black community stems from the fact that in many cases they are powerless to something to improve their condition.

[redqueen]

69. So if one accurately points out anything at all

that's indicative of a problem in the black community, that's unfair.

:shrug:

You keep bringing up all kinds of stuff in an attempt to avoid responding to people's questions. Herbert didn't "single out" anyone for anything that was not true. But you go right ahead and dismiss and ignore it, since that response seems to be the one you would choose.

[H2O Man]

72. Only the weakest of arguments

would take the stance that Cosby should go into other neighborhoods, but not black ones, and advocate responsibility.

[Tomee450]

79. Please don't distort

what I said. My point is that Cosby never indicated that the problems he sees in black neighborhoods are also prevalent in others. He gave deviant and irresponsible behavior a black face. I strongly object to him doing that. He also seems to believe that if blacks only behaved properly, their problems would be solved and that is absolutely ridiculous. He did not give those black people, millions of them, the credit they deserve for trying to raise families on very little and under terrible conditions. The problems confronting poor blacks are many and complex and not deserving of Cosby type of commentary.

[H2O Man]

82. I have no need

to distort anything you've said. I agree with about 90% of what you've said. The remaining 10% speaks for itself. I think that you make a weak argument on Cosby. And I do not think that poor people, be that black, brown, red, yellow, or white, have the luxury of being weak today.

[Tomee450]

56. It's rather disheartening

to see some of these comments on a forum supposedly of progressives.

[H2O Man]

60. I suppose it depends

on how one defines "progressive." For the sake of simplicity, I'd note the dictionary reads, in part: "adj:<1> of, relating to, or characterized by progress; <2> making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities; <3> of, relating to, or constituting an educational theory marked by emphasis on the individual child, informality of classroom procedure, and encouragement of self-expression; and noun: <1> one that is progressive; etc."

This country has a long and deeply ingrained history of mistreatment of non-white peoples. In particular, blacks and Native Americans are not playing on a level field today, despite some well-intentioned government programs. Yet the majority of non-white people, just like the majority of white folks, do work to try to make ends meet, and to try to make a better life for their children.

Yet there is still a large and growing underclass, which includes people of all races and ethnic background, who do not invest their energies in positive activities, either for their own benefit or that of their children. And the truth is, in the America that this administration -- and even the Clinton administration -- has moved towards, it is going to be very cold for poor folk. So every group needs a Bill Cosby to say get your shit together. That is progressive. It's not anti-black and it's not anti-poor. It is a realistic view of what needs to be done today.

[jeffrey_X]

84. Excellent....

"Many have achieved a measure of success despite the obstacle they had to overcome."

And most white people won't have a clue as to what the road was like to achieve that success. I'm not blaming them, because it's impossible to know unless you've done it yourself or can communicate intimately with someone who has.

My wife spent 6 years in corporate america because she was held to a different standard than everyone else and thought she needed to work harder than anyone else just to be on level footing. I'm glad she quit and went back to school.

[Tomee450]

89. Unfortunately

no matter how often one attempts to give honest accounts of what the black experience is like in America, certain people will continue to reject such information. They have a certain negative view of the black population and nothing will change that.

[Tomee450]

91. I have a friend

who worked for two large corporations. She resigned from both in disgust. All kinds of obstacles were put in her way. She was very bitter about her experience.

[patcox2]

53. Are blacks responsible for the poor schools?

Well, why don't you ask all the teachers why they don't want to teach in those schools?

Atlantic City New Jersey's education system has money coming out of its ears (taxes on the casinos have been a huge windfall). Dropout rates, test scores, violence, all the usual inner city problems are exactly as bad in that very very rich (in terms of per-pupil spending) school district as they are in "poor" inner city districts (like that euphemism, "inner city," like "urban," its a nice politically correct way to avoid associating "inner city" and "urban" problems with black people, as if what is really being said isn't "black problems." 69% graduation rate, 40% of students lack proficiency in basic english skills, 56% lack proficiciency in math and only 6% advanced proficency(there is a statewide High School proficiency test all students take, they have for years, good for comparison purposes). Nearby high school which spends $2,000 per year less on students, graduation rate 95%, 11% lack english proficiency, 22% lack math proficiency, but get this, 25% have advanced proficiency. Teachers get paid less, too.

So, those poor Atlantic City kids, its all because they go to a crappy school, is it?

How about its maybe because too many of the kids (not all, but too many) have embraced a thug-worshipping street culture in which doing things like studying and succeeding is denigrated as selling out, whereas hanging on the corner doing drugs is considered keeping it real?

[redqueen]

73. Culture.

What you're talking about is culture.

What's important at home? Reading? Studying? Those are what make a successful student.

Don't get me wrong... schools need money, too. But as your example above shows, it's not the only necessary ingredient.

[tblue37]

97. Do you remember Barak Obama's speech

at the Dem convention last year? He complained about how a Black kid with a book was accused of "acting white."

A former roommate of mine used to get pushed and slapped on the way home from school because she was an honor student, and the girls who slapped her around accused her of "acting white" because of that.

When Cosby was asked if he made the comments because he was angry, he said no, he was tired. He has fought to help young Blacks find a way up out of poverty. He has donated millions to Black colleges. He isn't just someone who got his and then turned his back on his community.

Even in I Spy he insisted on breaking racial stereotypes and making his character be the classy, well-dressed Rhodes Scholar.

One reason for the way he set up the Huxtable household was to offer role models to young Black kids, to let them see that a Black man could be a doctor, a Black woman could be a lawyer. Too often on TV what the kids were seeing were only negative images of Black men and women.

He says he should have phrased his criticism less generally, and that is true, but he really does care about the opportunities that are available to Black kids, and he should be given credit for that.

[H2O Man]

102. Well said!!!!

You are hitting the nail on the head here.

[bpilgrim]

11. more 911 fallout from the MASSIVE PSYOP - Harry Belafonte smack down - MP3

shame...

Harry Belafonte knew what time it was...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/Harry_Belafonte/LarryKing-HarryB.mp3

peace

[forgethell]

15. This quote:

As a person who did pull himself up from rags to riches, it would be great if he would give free seminars in communities of color to give his insights on how to break through the barriers and succeed in what is still a very unfair society.

I think that was what he was doing.

[UdoKier]

18. I also said he should focus on positives not negatives.

Which was the main point. His criticisms may be valid for a certain group of people, but in general they are not the folks coming to listen to him, and they are not the folks trying to pull themselves up.

[forgethell]

25. I think he could

maybe mention the positives, but it is the negatives that have to be worked on and eliminated. Every piece of personal growth I've ever done was when I realized I was doing something wrong. Sometimes I figured it out for myself, sometimes somebody gave me some deserved criticism, sometimes reality gave me a whomp upside the head.

[Tomee450]

19. No ,Cosby

was demeaning. He showed no respect for millions of people. He berated people with huge problems in front of the entire world reinforcing stereotypes. He should have known better.

[forgethell]

26. Sterotypes

get to be stereotypes for a reason. I don't recall that he mentioned any names, so he demeaned no one. He pointed out destructive behaviours, which need not be respected.

Respect has to be earned, and Cosby was telling blacks to go out an earn it. Something a lot of white, Asian, and other peoples could learn to their advantage, too.

[Tomee450]

29. Baloney and I find your

comments disturbing. Those are the kind of comments I've heard from people who are quite prejudiced. Stereotypes earned? So the stereotype of the shuffling Negro is earned. The stereotypes of the lazy black man, of the watermelon eating Negro, of the black criminal, welfare queen are earned? Says a lot about you. Millions of black people in this country go to work every day. They send their children to college when they can afford it, they go to church, do not take drugs and lead moral lives. Cosby was wrong to single blacks out and just gave ammunition to those who do not have the best interest of black people.

[forgethell]

34. So they do.

There are also black criminals, loads of illegitimate children, drugs, young men in prison. These are facts, not prejudice. True, these curses plague other communities also. And the only cure is to stop shouting 'racism' and the people that they are happening to realize that nobody is ever going to care about their problems as much as they do.

As for stereotypes, yes, they are formed because of observations. 'Earned' is not, I think, the correct word. Certainly, no 'stereotype' applies to all, even most, members of a group, black or otherwise. But they do apply to a sufficient number that people notice. This is not 'prejudice' but the kind of mental shortcut that is necessary to cope in a complex world. People willmake the observations and draw their conclusions. It may not be ideal, but there's no use to complain about it. Instead concentrate on what is important, your own situation and how to improve it.

[Tomee450]

38. Just more stereotypes.

There are criminals in every community. I don't for one moment buy the lie that African Americans commit more crime. The reason why so many are in prison is because the authorities target black areas for crime, something they fail to do to white areas. There are whites who commit murder, who rape, embezzle, beat their wives, abuse their children. They commit the same kind of offenses that blacks commit yet white are not stereotyped. This is true of other communities as well. There are more whites who take drugs than blacks yet is is the blacks who are arrested, convicted and sent to prison for long periods. White and black drug offenders are given different sentences for having the same drug, cocaine. Whites are not subjected to racial profiling so the drugs in their cars are unlikely to be discovered. Blacks are pulled over all the times and their cars searched. If there are drugs,the blacks are arrested and prosecuted. They become a statistics unlike the white who committed the same crime. Both violated the law;one was caught, the other was not.

I don't buy the out of wedlock statistics, either. Many white girls get pregnant before marriage, many when they are engaged. They later get married prior to the birth and when their child is born, he is listed as legitimate. The black girl may not get married before the birth and thus her child when born is listed as illegitimate. The fact is that both girls were impregnated before marriage but only the black woman is recorded as having had an out of wedlock birth. White parents are more likely to have private health insurance for their children and are able to have the birth take place at a private hospital, unlike the black woman who may have to use Medicaid. Her out of wedlock birth becomes part of a statistic. Also, white social workers will sometimes make every effort to protect the white mother, even going so far as to enter a fictitious name for the father.

I totally reject your assertions. I have heard those same kind of comments from virulent racists. Each criticism you and Cosby have hurled at the black community can be made of other communities. Of course prejudiced individuals will always seek to find something to support their prejudice.

As far as your contention that stereotypes are formed by observations,I have observed that the men who lynched black people were white. Shall I stereotype white men as potential lynchers because of what some have done? I have observed that most Catholic priests who abused little boys were white. Should I then stereotype white Catholic priests? Shall I brand most whites as racists since I have experienced so much racism from whites. To each of the above questions, the answer is an NO. Your assertions are absurd as are Bill Cosby's.

Unfortunately, for some people the problem is not really what black people do or don't do, the problem is that black people exist. And in the mind of such people, if blacks are to exist it should only be under the control of others not of their community. Their existence should be to the benefit of those others. It's unfortunate that today,the attitude of some people towards African Americans is no different than those held by many Americans during the nineteenth century.

[forgethell]

40. There is some truth to what

you say, but not that much.

Of course all communities have criminals. So what? These communities somehow manage to keep the crime in tolerable limits. As for your counter-example stereotypes, I can't speak for you of course, but many people do brand the groups as you have said. For instance, some feminists consider all men to be potential rapists. Many people brand all conservative Christians with the Jim Jones label. I won't even mention what I hear about Catholic priests on this discussion board. Many blacks on this discussion, and elsewhere, seem to think all whites are guilty of racism, unless proven otherwise. Stereotypes exist, and are based on observations. That doesn't mean that we should let them rule our thinking.

One such stereotype is the one of American society that says "blacks are kept down by white racism". Discrimination is against the law. Affirmative action exists. Yet blacks still do not manage to get ahead. Why? I don't pretend to know. But, as I said, this is their problem. Others can help them, but nobody cares about it as much as they do. So regardless of the rights and wrongs of their situation, if they want it fixed, they've got to fix it. This is what I think Cosby was trying to say, and he was correct.

So go ahead: whine, scream "white racism", feel sorry for yourself all you want. But it will get you very little. When your life is over, are you going to look back and say, "Whitey kept me down"? Or are you going to look back and say, "I had a hard road, but I persevered and overcame all obstacles and I WON!!!"

It's up to you.

[zanne]

44. Not all who "persevere" make itj.

And it sounds like you're a bit in the closet about racism. If you simply choose to think that alot of black people are poor because they're just not trying, you get to put down alot of people and make yourself feel good at the same time. Racism sneaks in when we're not paying attention.

[forgethell]

47. It is not

I who am thinking racially.

No, not all who persevere make it. It also takes a little talent, some smarts, maybe a little luck. So what. There is no 'right' to success for any of us. All who don't try, fail. It also takes education and interested parents, something I believe Cosby mentioned.

Not everything is about race, and not everything bad that happens to a black person is due to racism. Yes, it exists, but it should be considered just another obstacle to overcome. It can be done. But you have to get up off your butt to stop losing.

Good luck to you.

[zanne]

59. It sounds like you already had your luck, forgethell.n/t

[forgethell]

99. Well, after 50 years

of relatively hard luck, and a lot of striving, I finally got a break about 6 years ago, yes. Thank you for asking.

[Tomee450]

54. You can be in denial all you wish

but racism is rampant and it certainly negatively effects the lives of black Americans. I find it hard to understand why you would deny this.
I totally reject all of your assertions. You are living in a fairyland if you think Affirmative Action, Civil Rights Laws have somehow eradicated racism or lessened its effect. The people who have benefited from Affirmative Action most have been white women, not black people. Millions of African Americans have never benefited from that policy which is currently being rolled back.

As far as other communities being able to handle deviancy, what a load of baloney. Other communities still have the same problems but they are not singled out, not prosecuted. Their problems are not given from page coverage. Crime is rampant in some white areas, but the authorities sometimes fail to report it. I've worked with white people who went home to find their homes ramsacked and everything of value taken. I've worked with others who have come out of their homes in the morning to find the winshield on every car on one side of the steet broken. I've talked to whites who had to hire lawyers to get their children out of trouble. I know others who have had domestic abuse in their households, who were followed home by strangers when they went jogging. I know of whites who have embezzled thousands of dollars yet were given a slap on the wrist.

If the authorities really went after whites who took drugs, we'd have a boom in the building of prisons. Bill Bennett, the former drug Czar, said most of the drug offenders in this country are white. Why then, are most of those imprisoned for drugs, black? Why is it that black women who are known to be least likely to carry drugs singled out for strip searches at airports? Sir/Madam, you have your head in the sand.

How have Civil Rights laws protected black voting rights, discrimination in loan applications? How have those laws prevented
the applications of individuals with black sounding names from being discarded thereby denying those people the opportunity to make a living?

Your comments are just outrageous. So what if discrimination is against the law, people still engage in it. Blacks are still discriminated against in housing and employment. Discrimination being against the law did not stop Nissan and other companies from charging blacks higher interest rates than whites. And even if blacks complain to the EEOC, their chances of getting their cases heard is remote.

Furthermore, you really should refrain from being condescending. It's obvious that what you know about black people is based on the usual stereotypes. The truth is, and of course you will never admit it, racism plays a major role in the lives of black people and is greatly responsible for the condition many blacks find themselves in. Most blacks still strive for the good life though,despite having to encounter the evil that is racism.

[H2O Man]

98. Speaking of stereotypes .....

Out of respect for your request that I not twist your words, let's look at a few quotes:

Post 38: "As far as your contention that stereotypes are formed by observations...."

Post 38: " I have heard the same kind of comments from virulent racists."

Post 29: "Those are the kind of comments I've heard from people who are quite prejudiced.."

Post 37: "Just more right wing rhetoric."

Post 63: "They even adopt the words of right wingers ... Says a lot about such an individual."

Post 57: "No surprise at your response. Typical of a person of a certain mindset."

Post 49: "Why is it that you and others never comment about crime in rural areas, sometimes involving gangs?"

Those are pretty good examples of stereotyping. The last one, which was directed at me, is an outstanding example of ignorance in action. If you knew who you were talking to, you would be embarassed. And for good reason.

[ReverendDeuce]

16. The Cos is absolutely right...

I am as progressive as anybody else, but let's be realistic. What Cosby has said is right on target.

[Tomee450]

20. Cosby's

comments were mean spirited and racist. If a white person had made such statements, there would have been widespread outrage from the leaders of the black community. All of the defects he sees in the black community can be seen in other communities also. There are a lot of problems in poor communities but comments like Cosby's are not helpful, they just make people angry. A lot of poor people go to church, try to raise good children and do the best they can with what they have.

[pnb]

31. How were they racist?

He never said the defects didn't occur anywhere else.

And of course many people try their best but it was obvious to most anyone that he wasn't speaking to those people...he was speaking to those he didn't try. And if those people get angry at his comments, so what? It doesn't make them less true.

[zanne]

32. Some people hate to admit they were lucky.

Some successful people will never acknowledge any luck they might have had in making it big. And they'll never admit that alot of poor people didn't "choose" to be that way. Bill Cosby has a huge ego.

[forgethell]

36. Nobody choose to be poor.

The question is what are they prepared to do about it. Because nobody cares about their situation as much as they do.

[jeffrey_X]

66. Some people are more prepared than others based on...

their current environment of which they have no control.

Because nobody knows more about their situation more than they do.

[erpowers]

46. How About This

I know some people may not like my comment, but this is my response. Maybe a man who raised two children, one of which was on drugs for a time and the other who got shot on the highway under unknown circumstances should not be trying to tell other low income people how to live their lives. In addition, this is a guy who had one affair, paid the woman to keep it quiet and then had the daughter of this women black mail him because she thought he was her father. Finally, this is the guy that had to recently admit to fondling a woman. I do not think he is the guy who should be criticizing poor people.

[formernaderite]

48. Cosby's comments while directed to blacks...

could have been directed to any portion of Americas underclass, regardless of race. That said, he was lecturing a black audience....that's who he's concerned about.

Go into any walmart, and watch what the fools shop for, black or white.
Over the last few years I've worked mainly with blue collar guys. Most are white or hispanics, a few blacks in the contracting business. I've fronted money for a couple of guys who had to make truck payments, only to find out later that they'll pay the cable bill before the truck. These days I just roll my eyes...and if they need to pay a bill, I offer to pay the bill DIRECTLY to the company. Their trucks always look perfectly buffed with every bell and whistle...it's a class thing I guess.

[jeffrey_X]

77. If his comments were really directed at poor blacks....

He would have traveled to their neighborhoods across the country and delivered the message in person rather than at some high profile events and through the MSM.

Otherwise they are not going to get the message. And if not, what was the purpose in the fist place.

[iwantmycountryback]

65. Cosby was right

I go to high school with a lot of lower-class kids of all races, and most of them care more about getting the latest G-Unit or Jordan sneakers than getting a good grade on their Math test. I experience this everyday, and the apathy of these kids would really shock you.

[Tomee450]

70. I know a lot of poor people too

and my experience is quite different. I know parents who are very concerned about their children getting a good education and some of those children are on the honor roll and are not trouble makers.

[Deja Q]

74. Rags to riches also depends on luck.

With 350 million of us, and as the population grows, finding that area that can propel you gets increasingly difficult.

And while people think that American Idol (tm) is there to help them, when's the last time you heard from any of those 'winners'? Never. They were discarded just as quickly too.

Fame and wealth also blind people to reality. Most politicians, who also happen to be wealthy,are just as blind. So are our 'corporate leaders', who see short-term wealth only. and now even they fear the economy's demise, made in part BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTIONS, INDIRECT OR OTHERWISE.

[jeffrey_X]

76. The biggest problem with Cosby's message is....

Who is receiving Cosby's message? White people or the target audience he is trying to reach? You guessed it. It's white people who are going around praising Bill Cosby and his message

Poor black people aren't listening to his message. If in fact they are, they don't realize it's them he's talking about and if they do, they are probably uttering "fuck you" under their breath.

In my mind Cosby's remarks have no redeeming value or positive effect on the community he is targeting. IMHO.

[Tomee450]

80. Exactly!!

[ValentinoM]

96. I'm not sure what other value Cosby had in his message ..

.. but it created one of the most fascinating threads and more food for thought than I have ever heard on this all important subject. I have never encountered such well reasoned, well stated, thought provoking sides of this serious, sensitive, and yet civil argument.. Thanks to all of you..

It just occurred to me maybe this is what Cosby had in mind.. to at least start the dialog.. Just a thought..

[B Calm]

105. You are right! The only people who want to listen to this dribble

are white folks. Some white people (not all) like to look down on a class of people. Cosby should stick to comedy...

[candy331]

94. Cosby first should remember who he is because DWB at night

could land him in the same spot as the poor blacks he was torching. I remember Oprah Winfrey telling the story of being in one of the large department stores without her intense make up on and so was not recognized and she got the DWB treatment. Who would have thought it, I tell you I was shocked to hear it, shocked I say. lol Cosby needs to get a life. Preaching to people, tearing them down will never cause them to change. He should follow the example of the greatest man on earth (Jesus Christ) who spoke in a kind positive way to people, looked for the good in folks rather than the bad. Why step on the backs of people who are already down.

[Tomee450]

101. Thank you.

Great post.