Nazis, and Fascists, and Hitler! Oh my! (long)

[Behind the Aegis]

3000 posts!!! So, I figured it should be a biggie!

Thursday night, on The Daily Show, Jon Stewart said it would be best if people, both sides, stop comparing people to Hitler. He also went on to say how using the terms “Nazi” and “Holocaust” detract from the meanings of the word. Now he is being called a “shill,” a “sellout,” and a few other things. He has been chastised for not being aggressive enough with his guests and now, wants to limit free speech. So, to some of you out there, GET A GRIP! He is, first and foremost, a comedian! He is NOT a pundit! If he gets a show like “Al Franken” and continues to ask “softball” questions, then, by all means, rip him to shreds. Jon Stewart delivers news in a comedic fashion, he rips on both sides, but mainly rips on the Republicans. The sad thing; he delivers better news than most of the mainstream outlets. So, if you feel he has “sold us out,” please do as we ask the right-wing when they are offended by educational shows or shows where minorities are portrayed in a positive light, turn OFF the damn TV.

I hear Jerry Springer got into the act and basically said the same thing. I can’t really comment on it, because I did not hear it. However, I feel that Jon is right! We need to think about the appropriateness of using terms like “Hitler,” Nazi,” and “Holocaust.” When those terms are used, sometimes the message is obscured because the focus is turned on to the aforementioned words. Then, the argument becomes about those words and what they mean or don’t mean, and the message is lost.

Is Bush like Hitler? I have seen some make a case for it, but it always falls short. I assert that NO ONE is Hitler other than Hitler. He is in a “class” all by himself! Yes, like Hitler, Bush has invaded a sovereign nation. Like Hitler, Bush has manipulated the media and national patriotism. Like Hitler, Bush is despised worldwide. Although a few more examples exist, Hitler was responsible for one of the most horrific genocides to ever take place in the history of humans. Therefore, Hitler stands alone. Bush may “aspire” to Hitler’s power, but he is not systematically destroying an entire group of people, in order to wipe them from the face of the planet. Even Stalin and Pol-Pot and their horrific regimes didn’t reach the level of evil that Hitler achieved. Does this mean the acts carried out by Bush, Stalin and Pol-Pot are any less evil or dastardly? OH HELL NO! But, why not compare Bush to Caesar? Napoleon? Genghis Khan? They are all examples of bat-shit crazy despots. Do you use Hitler for shock value or is there an actual comparison? When someone says “Hitler,” do you think of the struggling/failed artist? Do you think “the weasly, little nobody who could barely muster support, at first?” I bet you think “crazed madman, who sent 12 million hapless souls to their deaths!” So even if there are comparisons between Bush (or any leader) to Hitler, the only impression that people think when they hear that name is “crazed madman, who sent millions to their deaths.”

What about “nazi?” Fair game? Well, in some sense, yes. Nazis are a type of fascist. There are a few other examples. But, why use “nazi” instead of “fascist?” Could it be for shock value? I think it is. Because, like Hitler, Nazi, invokes a very particular image…the Holocaust. So the next time you see “fascist” behavior, call it out by calling it “fascist!” Nazi-like behavior is all over the world, but it is simply fascism.

The final word, Holocaust, is a bone-chilling word. However, I have seen quite a few uneducated remarks about this event. I feel some people really do not know what the Holocaust is. Some think it is “just another genocide.” It wasn’t! But, because the Holocaust was not “just another genocide,” does this mean it is any more or less important than other genocides? That is a highly debatable question. All genocides are horrific, senseless, and blights on our collective humanity!

At Passover (Pesach), Jews, during the sedar, ask: why is this meal different from all others? The answers are given in a straight-forward manner. So, I will attempt to do the same here. Why is the Holocaust different from all other genocides? It is the only genocide, to my knowledge, that “earned” a name. It is the only genocide where camps were built specifically for mass execution. It is the only genocide where half of the WORLD’S population of a specific group was destroyed. It is the only genocide used to ‘name’ other genocides (e.g. The Dafur Holocaust, the Native American Holocaust). The Holocaust, like Hitler, stands in a “class” all by itself. Despite some accusations, the Jews do not use the Holocaust as a way to “cherish their victimhood” (Yes, that was typed here on DU). The sensitivity to using the Holocaust as a term is because what it means to the Jewish people. I am not saying don’t use it, but realize that if you do, it does take much to prove another genocide is comparable to the Holocaust, not in numbers, but in rationale and intent.

This is the US; we still have free speech, who knows for how long. So by all means, use whatever words you desire, but if you use “Hitler,” “Nazi,” and “Holocaust,” be prepared to defend why you used those terms and not your actual message.

on edit: misspelled one on the "bat-shit crazy despots."

[AX10]

1. That is why we use the term "Facist". It is very accurate.

[Amonester]

2. With all due respect, and IMHO.

Quote: "Bush may “aspire” to Hitler’s power, but he is not systematically destroying an entire group of people, in order to wipe them from the face of the planet." End of quote.


My opinion is that he has the intention to wipe all the people who do not agree with his own dominionist theocracy (the fascism of the "have mores," his base, in his own words), and that is the reason why the civilized human race must do everything to stop him and his minions from ever succeeding in his criminal intentions.

Yeah, the dominionist hypocrit has just begun... He hasn't murdered 25 million innocents yet. He only "plans" to kill much more...

And if not, why would "they" do everything in their power to enrage more than a billion Muslims so far, hey?????


Wake Up Before It's Too Late.


:hangover:

[Cleita]

3. I agree with you. He hasn't had a chance yet. If he is given

the chance, he will make Hitler look like a piker.

[Cleita]

7. Maybe we should look at

the word holocaust, which originally simply meant a burnt offering to the gods or a sacrifice. It's obvious why it was adopted to define a horrible event in history known as "The Holocaust".

Hitler himself was not offering anything to God. He was killing people because he hated them. In this light we can view Bush's rampage through Iraq. "They tried to kill my father," he has said. So he is taking revenge and he hates all of them. Now his PNAC handlers intend to use his foothold in Iraq to pillage Iran and Syria. It's in the PNAC book.

I think he's very much like Hitler. To compare him to more distant historical figures dilutes the importance of who he is because the average American doesn't have a clue. They do know who Hitler is and who Stalin is. Now we could compare him to Stalin, however, Stalin was a communist and Hitler was a corporatist so again he is closer to Hitler than Stalin.

As far as the methods used to gain hegemony, they are the same among all three leaders.

[Amonester]

8. Agreed. And I often find myself (how I wish I would not...)

asking:

How many innocent victims would not have been massacred by the Third Reich (and for what?) if Hitler's barbarian regime would have been stopped before it was too late to do so by the German People themselves?

And the answer often comes in the form of:

Perhaps because the German media, big oil, and military industrial complex were all complicit at the same time...

:boring:

[Cleita]

10. England and America could have stopped him.

Instead Neville Chamberlain, the Prime Minister of England at the time, tried to compromise with him and actually allowed him to invade Austria and Czechoslavakia thinking then that he would be satisfied. The United States felt it was Europe's problem. Then Hitler invaded Poland and there was no stopping him.

The German people too, looked the other way. They had suffered from WWI and the Versaille Treaty demands on the Weimar Republic. Then the Reichstag fire caused every freedom they had to be signed away at the stroke of President von Hindenberg's pen, much like our Patriot Act. Hitler also made sure to provide them a scapegoat for their problems, the Jews.

The left wing parties became afraid to speak up. Also, Hitler's military economy provided jobs, so they thought they were better off than before. When they should have spoken up, they turned the other way.

So far we haven't done this, our half anyway the lefties. The freepers are, of course, in lockstep, and unlike the rank and file Germans, who where at least gaining some economic relief, aren't getting anything but a lot of bull shit. I can't figure that one out.

[Amonester]

12. Neither can I, but my hypotheses are that the freepers

1) kind of "recognize" themselves in the (my way or the highway) Chimperror. Lower than average IQ. Never traveled abroad. Narcissistic (~add your own here~). Believe the U.S. Constitution must rule the world. (~Add your own here also~)

2) are being (and have been...) effectively brainwashed by the media over the years, and believe all the "librul demoncrats" hate America.

3) think that their divinity is a real person (with a white beard?), and that the U.S.A. was given a mission to dominate the world, along side with Israel.

4) ~ add your own hypotheses here ~


OTOH, the only reason (IMHO) why any nation around the world will not declare war against *'s barbarian regime is because any country that would even just try it would risk to be just flattened down in fumes in a period of 48 hours (or less)...

Only the Civilized People inside America now can

STOP *

[Cleita]

13. There is another way, economic sanctions or just

refusing to do business with BushCo. It would have to be subtle of course. I already noticed some of that happening, like Airbus getting foreign airline's business instead of Boeing. There needs to be more of this.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. The best part of waking up...

....is realizing that some tactics are just stupid. They detract from the real issue. Like you said, Shrub has designs on controlling many things, but I doubt he is looking to wipe people out specifically, just those who get in his way. This is not the same as Hitler. Shrub wants OIL and military bases in the Middle East! However, calling him Hitler, just detracts from the monstrous things he does, because then we spend all our time and effort in "damage control" because of the Hitler reference, and the message is lost.

[Amonester]

6. The message is not lost (again, IMHO).

And also, I read that many freepers have a lot of "fun" name-calling all "librul demoncRats" (their "childish" words, not mine) "nazis" because, some say, their forever cherrished aWoLiar and mass murderer "protects" Israel! (Like if Israel cannot "protect" itself!)

[sam sarrha]

5. We had people "BOILED ALIVE" ..we sent them to Uzbekistan for TORTURE !

WE KNEW they would be chained in pot and given as much time to confess as it took the water to boil !!

WHAT was said was... if someone read the reports not knowing where they came from.. one would 'think'.. I would think that exactly.!!

WE HAD PEOPLE most likely entirely Innocent BOILED ALIVE !!

WE paid warlords a Bounty on prisoners, ANY prisoners.. they gave us people they didn't like, they most probably stoled peoples land and wives by giving them up to us.. WE created AL Quita by torturing people in Egyptian prisons, they came out and got together and started a life of revenge.. it is said that the guy who is Ossama Benforgotten's second in command spent 2 years in a 6x8 cell with a crazed vicious dog.. the jailers threw food on the floor and he had to fight the dog to eat.. they beat him and cuffed his hands behind his back and hung him on the top edge of a door by the cuffs and put a pipe up his ass and a wire up his dick and electrocuted him on a regular basis. for years

it is most certian we created this situation through torture.. just type in "Torture in Egyption Prisons" or /..jails"

the right is pissed because he is RIGHT.. we have and contenue to to things only the Nazi's and Stalanists and simular ilk have done, they dont want to be exposed..

Link> CAUTION: contains photos of a Boiled human being.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3943.htm

want to "Upgrade" you rage at what that this Fucking Wet Brain Alcoholic Drug Addict moron pResident is capable of.. ?? there is a picture of Bush with the 'Boiler', President Karimov !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cleita]

11. I heard they were boiled in oil.

Think of a deep fat fryer that french fries are cooked in.

[Cats Against Frist]

9. What made the Holocaust so fucking terrifying

is how absolutely rational the whole thing was. I started thinking about this, while reading John Ralston Saul's "Voltaire's Bastards." We say the holocaust was "crazy" or something, but it was truly rationalized. The basis of what it was rationalized FROM, however, was occultism and magical thinking.

This, to me, is the real hallmark of fascism. Cultural or racial supremacism -- or even the divine right of Kings -- based on grandiose, superstitious, religious, all-encompassing or mystical claims.

I think, often times, the people who claim that the current American right (not only speaking of the universally recognized trimvirate of the corporatists, neocons and theocons, but the passive, fearful constituents, as well) are NOT like the Nazis, seem to be contemplating the DEGREE to which the actions of the American Right Wing -- in democide or genocide counts -- contrast with the DEGREE to which the Nazis terrorized, propagandized and basically, ritually murdered millions of people.

Of course, when comtemplating this, the actions of the American right do not stand anywhere near the crimes of the Nazis. HOWEVER, it seems that the basis for much of American transgression stems from the same place -- cultural and racial supremacism, the mythology, superstition and hyperreligiosity of the Christian Right, as well as nationalist domination and military force.

Hitler had his swastikas and giant eagle statues. The Christian Right has the gleaming spires of mega-churches and a blone-ed Christ; the imperialists, sea walls; and the corpo-fascists the slick, over-produced, plastic facade that is the American landscape. It's a little less creepy, because we're accustomed to it, but these symbols serve as signifiers, nonetheless. What they signify is cultural supremacism, consumerism, worship of wealth, an amalgamated Mammon Jesus, "core 'murican values," and nationalism.

I feel, deep down that what's needed is a new word. I thank Walt Starr for saying, shortly after the election, "we don't know what to call this, because it's something we've never seen." And honestly, I think he's right. "Naziism" should be reserved for the Naziis. "Gulag" should be reserved for the totalitarian regiemes of Eurasia.

The words that we're debating, however, particularly "Nazi," only got the connotations that they did, because of history and distance. I honestly feel that in fifty years, when all the ugliness of this chapter in American history are fleshed out, and analyzed, that the Republican party and George Bush will be remembered as a disgrace. I hope so.

The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to let them be their own terrible thing. They are rabid with the "style-over-substance" fallacy, and their reverse-PC "rules of discourse," and will call out the mic brigade on any slip-up, any chance they get. Metaphors and similes have no use, here, I think. They're "history's actors," remember. By providing them with potential distractions, they NEVER have to do what they don't want to do: address the question, or address the argument.

[justgamma]

14. The way he came to power

is so similar. The use of the Christians, the use of the fear. The first thing Hitler did was eliminate the safety nets and made people dependent on him. Gradually the only people who found work had to belong to the party.
The opposition tried to fight back, after all they were elected to serve their constituents. The Nazi's had the majority. They made it clear that they were not going to listen to the opposition. If the opposition spoke out, they were ridiculed. Eventually, they just gave up.
Don't ever forget the Nazi's were elected legitimately. It was after they came to power that the atrocities started.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Yes, it is.

And, Interestingly enough, both used scapegoats that go more attention than the actual actions they are/were taking. However, because the words are so charged, often the conversations turn to the "appropriateness" of the comparison, rather than the message itself.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Does that mean I shouldn't call my manager Hitler v2.1?

drats....

[moof]

17. Doesn't this all depend on if bush* is a real fundi or not ?

There was a segment on 60 minutes a while back about the fundis being so close with isreal and how basically this is in the "end" quite ironic.

the basic lines of the interview that struck a cord were along these lines
--------------
60 minutes : but your faith says that in the end the jewish people will either convert or perish, ... correct ?

fundi : well, .. only the christians are going to heaven so it's in their interest to convert.

---------

ok ,... and the ones that don't convert are going to parish from ... old age ?

Seems like a new take on the same old theme from this end of the net.
Nazis wanted all the jewish people gone, and the fundi christians need the same thing so where's the difference ?