Popes:"We speak for God"

[Liberator_Rev]

The many DUers who commented on the thread "Bush: God has called us " at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=9020&mesg_id=9020&
objected to Bush claiming that God speaks to him, but lets see if DU flinch when Popes say the same thing.

When Bush calls himself a "Compassionate Conservative" or spouts some Liberal sound byte, Liberals and DU'ers who know the larger picture aren't fooled. Yet, when Pope John Paul II spouts the occasional Liberal words, or adopts a Liberal position on occasion, many Liberals and DU'ers see this Pope is one of US. But IS he ? (And are Popes any closer to God than a lot of other political leaders, like Jimmy Carter, for example?)

It's wonderful that John Paul II has been with us in opposing Bush's war and America's death penalty. But while he has made some Liberal noises relative to the poor, his longstanding and very vocal opposition not just to abortion, but to every practical form of family planning has compounded the misery of millions, if not billions of women and their families throughout the world. And his constant crusading against the recognition of gay rights by the STATE as well as the Church is one of the greatest obstactles to justice where gays are concerned.

While this pope makes a theatrical show of humility in kissing the ground at photo ops, he holds jealously to his absolute power within the church, ignores the policy established by the Second Vatican Council that Bishops retire (at age 70, if I am not mistaken) and has used his power to appoint all of the bishops and cardinals throughout the world to put in place a whole army of ultra-conservative CEO's, all of whom know they must tow his line, or else. When, for example, Archbishop Hunthausen of Seattle tried to flap his own wings, the Pope stripped him of his authority in five key areas: moral teaching, laicization of priests, marrriage annulments, liturgy and seminary training. If there are any Liberal theologians left in the Roman Catholic church, they know that they had better keep their mouthes shut and their pens still, lest they be fired, like Hans Kung and Karl Rahner in Germany, Edward Schillebeeckx in Holland, Leonardo Boff in Brazil, Charles Curran in Washington, D.C., and they had better not influence future generations of Catholic leaders to be more Liberal !

To the delight of some no doubt, I haven't been posting much at DU these past few weeks. The reasons are two-fold: I've been involved in a Federal Court case in which a poor black mother was suing my home town over the tragic DWB killing of her youngest son, 21 year old Malik Jones. Happily the 6 whites and 1 black on the jury decided in her favor and awarded her a $2.5 million judgement against my town, East Haven, CT. My other project was the reading of two books for the eventual enhancement of the "Liberals Like Christ" web site. One of those books was the eye-opening book by Peter De Rosa, a Jesuit priest who left the Roman Catholic priesthood the very same year that I did over the same disillusionment over the undoing of the Second Vatican Council. We were among thousands of priests and even bishops who couldn't stand to see our beloved church go backwards again, after the death of John XXIII, certainly the most lovable and most Liberal Pope of our time, if not of the whole history of the church.

My newest web page The many DUers who commented on the thread " Bush: God has called us " at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=9020&mesg_id=9020&

objected to Bush claiming that God speaks to him, but lets see if DU flinch when Popes say the same thing.

When Bush calls himself a "Compassionate Conservative" or spouts some Liberal sound byte, Liberals and DU'ers who know the larger picture aren't fooled. Yet, when Pope John Paul II spouts the occasional Liberal words, or adopts a Liberal position on occasion, many Liberals and DU'ers see this Pope is one of US. But IS he ?

It's wonderful that John Paul II has been with us in opposing Bush's war and America's death penalty. But while he has made some Liberal noises relative to the poor, his longstanding and very vocal opposition not just to abortion, but to every practical form of family planning has compounded the misery of millions, if not billions of women and their families throughout the world. And his constant crusading against the recognition of gay rights by the STATE as well as the Church is one of the greatest obstactles to justice where gays are concerned.

While this pope makes a theatrical show of humility in kissing the ground at photo ops, he holds jealously to his absolute power within the church, ignores the policy established by the Second Vatican Council that Bishops retire (at age 70, if I am not mistaken) and has used his power to appoint all of the bishops and cardinals throughout the world to put in place a whole army of ultra-conservative CEO's, all of whom know they must tow his line, or else. When, for example, Archbishop Hunthausen of Seattle tried to flap his own wings, the Pope stripped him of his authority in five key areas: moral teaching, laicization of priests, marrriage annulments, liturgy and seminary training. If there are any Liberal theologians left in the Roman Catholic church, they know that they had better keep their mouthes shut and their pens still, lest they be fired, like Hans Kung and Karl Rahner in Germany, Edward Schillebeeckx in Holland, Leonardo Boff in Brazil, Charles Curran in Washington, D.C., and they had better not influence future generations of Catholic leaders to be more Liberal !

To the delight of some no doubt, I haven't been posting much at DU these past few weeks. The reasons are two-fold: I've been involved in a Federal Court case in which a poor black mother was suing my home town over the tragic DWB killing of her youngest son, 21 year old Malik Jones. Happily the 6 whites and 1 black on the jury decided in her favor and awarded her a $2.5 million judgement against my town, East Haven, CT. My other project was the reading of two books for the eventual enhancement of the "Liberals Like Christ" web site. One of those books was the eye-opening book by Peter De Rosa, a Jesuit priest who left the Roman Catholic priesthood the very same year that I did over the same disillusionment over the undoing of the Second Vatican Council. We were among thousands of priests and even bishops who couldn't stand to see our beloved church go backwards again, after the death of John XXIII, certainly the most lovable and most Liberal Pope of our time, if not of the whole history of the church.

My newest web page http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist has been designed to give people a taste of the book, "Vicars of Christ", in the hope that people (and especially Roman Catholics) will read the whole of it and come to the same conclusion that Cardinal Baronius did centuries ago:
In his sixteenth-century Ecclesiastical Annals, which the famous Catholic Lord Acton called 'the greatest history of the Church ever written", Cardinal Baronius was understandably embarrassed by events he recorded with remarkable honesty. The pontiffs of this period he described as "invaders of the Holy See, less apostles than apostates". On the Chair of St. Peter sat not men but monsters in the shape of men: "Vainglorious . . . filled with fleshly lusts and cunning in all forms of wickedness governed Rome and prostituted the Chair of St. Peter for their minions and paramours."
And this is the lesson he drew from all his observations :
"The chief lesson of these times is that the Church can get along very
well without popes. What is vital to the Church's survival is not the pope
but Jesus Christ. He is the head of the Church, not the pope."

Roman Catholics who believe that such popes were the rare exception are operating on blind faith. What the history of the papacy actually shows is that it was the saints and the luminaries who were the very rare exceptions.

[noonwitch]

1. One of the cool things about being american, liberal and protestant

Is that you don't have to recognize the pope as God's mouthpiece. I can respect the pope when he pushes for peace, apologizes for the holocaust and the burning times, etc., but don't have to obey his edicts about anything, especially women's rights, contraception and abortion.
I actually like JPII because he is a pope who, even in his infirmaty, gets out of the Vatican and sees the real world once in a while. I respect him for staying with the job despite his Parkinson's disease, when so many are calling on him to step down.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

2. The only truly moral pope

in my lifetime was John XXIII, who was a saint.

[Blue_Chill]

3. And that is why you aren't Catholic

Thanks for sharing with us. Now go read your edited bible and leave us to our Mary worship.

:D

BTW - what is this your 900th catholic bash? Be careful we Catholics have special powers, don't make us guilt you to death!

[Liberator_Rev]

4. Responsibility is accepting the consequences of your actions.

If you didn't have so much to hide, Blue_chill, you wouldn't be afraid of the light of truth. It's such a shame that Catholics like yourself are more concerned about protecting Popes than Jesus Christ, whom they falsely claim to represent.
When a former Catholic priest such as myself criticizes the church, Roman Catholic apologists think that they can escape the truth by smearing the messengers with names like "anti-Catholic bigots" or "defrocked priest" (neither of which is true of me -- not that that makes any difference to them --). But sincere Catholics have to think twice when Catholic popes and even saints are the ones delivering that same message:

"One of the most intriguing conversations ever recorded in Rome was between the English Pope, Adrian IV (1154 -- 59), and his plain-spoken compatriot John of Salisbury, later Bishop of Chartres. "What", the Pope whispered, "do people really think of the Pope and the Church?"
"People are saying", John answered boldly, "that the church behaves more like a stepmother than a mother: that in it is a fatal vein of avarice, scribes and Pharisees laying grievous burdens on men's shoulders, accumulating precious furniture, covetous to a degree. And " he added, " that the holy Father himself is burdensome and scarcely to be borne."

"St. Bonaventure, Cardinal and General of the Franciscans, likened Rome to the harlot of the Apocalypse, thus anticipating Luther by three centuries. This harlot, he said, makes kings and nations drunk with the wine of her whoredoms. In Rome, he claimed to have found nothing but lust and simony, even in the top ranks of the church. Rome corrupts prelates, they corrupt their clergy, the clergy corrupt the people."

Dante, a devout Catholic, not only gave hell to pope after pope, he dealt just as firmly with the Curia. Cardinals, who, according to a devout Durham monk, were once 'glittering like prostitutes', are stripped naked in the Fourth Circle of the Inferno.

"Bishop Pelayo, a papal aide in Avignon, suggested that the Holy See had infected the whole church with the poison of avarice. "If the pope behaves like this, people say, why shouldn't we?" On a quite ordinary day, his master, Pope John XXII, excommunicated one patriarch, five archbishops, thirty bishops and forty-six abbots. Their only crime: they were behind in paying the pope his taxes. "

"Petrach's friend, Machiavelli wrote: "The Italians owe a great debt to the Roman church and its clergy. Through their example, we have lost all true religion and become complete unbelievers. Take it as a rule, the nearer a nation dwells to the Roman Curia, the less religion it has."

"St. Catherine of Sienna told Pope Gregory XI that she did not need to visit the papal court to smell it. 'The stench of the Curia, Holiness, has long ago reached my city.' "

"In the 15th century, St. Antonino, Archbishop of Florence, disapproved of his city selling bonds at a profit: this was usury. When his critics argued, "The Roman church allows it", Antonino replied: "Members of the Curia have concubines. Does that prove that concubinage is lawful?" The sheer ordinariness of his argument is striking."

"One reason for there being more prostitutes in Rome than in any other capital city was the large number of celibates. The convents were often brothels. Women sometimes took a dagger with them to confession to protect themselves against their confessor."

The 16th centuries scholar Erasmus, one of the wittiest men of his or any age, said the tyranny of Rome was worse than that of the Turks. He wrote a sketch in which Pope Julius is trying to bluster his way past St. Peter at the heavenly gates. Peter screws up his eyes, unable to recognize a successor (of St. Peter) in this bearded warrior. Julius removes his helmet and dons his tiara. Peter is even more suspicious. Finally an exasperated Julius holds up his keys in front of Peter's nose. The apostle having examined them, slowly shakes his head. "Sorry, but they will not fit anything in this Kingdom."

The Dutchman, Pope Adrian VI, confessed to the diet of Nuremberg in 1522 that all evils in the church proceeded from the Roman Curia. "For many years, abominable things have taken place in the chair of Peter, abuses in spiritual matters, translations of the commandments, so that everything here has been wickedly perverted."

"The Jesuit scholar and papal defender, Robert Cardinal Bellarmine was later to admit: "For some years before Luther and Calvin there was in the church almost no religion left." The papacy, he said, had almost eliminated Christianity."

"Two years before he was excommunicated by Pope Leo, Luther wrote "It is a distressing and terrible thing to see the Head of Christendom, who boasts of being the Vicar of Christ and successor to St. Peter, living in a worldly pomp that no king or emperor can equal: so that in him who calls himself most Holy and most spiritual there is more worldliness than in the world itself." (pp. 119-120)

from http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist .

[Blue_Chill]

5. Nice examples, meaningless but nice.

1- You are anti-Catholic. I'm not saying you are a bigot, mean, or nasty but anti-Catholic is EXACTLY what you are.

2- You seek to have religion change to suit popular thinking. The church values life yet must oppose sin. Birth control is mostly used to allow sin without the risk of creating life, this is can not be endorsed by the church. This is a view the church itself has trouble with and one that is frequently debated in Catholic circles because of it's no sinful use in marriage.

How exactly do you deal with this moral issue? Do you simply think the church should endorse and in fact aid sinful behavior simply because it will keep people healthier? Are we not taught that sin leads to destruction of the sinner?

3- The Pope is the ONLY leader of ANY Christian church that has gone as far as commanding his fellow Catholics to view Muslims as brothers in faith.

[Liberator_Rev]

7. To oppose Bush is to be ANTI-AMERICAN

When are you going to stop the constant accusasions that I am "anti-Catholic" ? By YOUR logic everybody here at DU who has any complaints about Bush is ANTI-AMERICAN. If your going to insist on doing this then be consistent and accuse all of the following Saints, Bishops and Popes of being EQUALLY ANTI-CATHOLIC:

# "St. Bonaventure, Cardinal and General of the Franciscans, likened Rome to the harlot of the Apocalypse, thus anticipating Luther by three centuries. This harlot, he said, makes kings and nations drunk with the wine of her whoredoms. In Rome, he claimed to have found nothing but lust and simony, even in the top ranks of the church. Rome corrupts prelates, they corrupt their clergy, the clergy corrupt the people."
# Dante, a devout Catholic, not only gave hell to pope after pope, he dealt just as firmly with the Curia. Cardinals, who, according to a devout Durham monk, were once 'glittering like prostitutes', are stripped naked in the Fourth Circle of the Inferno.
# "Bishop Pelayo, a papal aide in Avignon, suggested that the Holy See had infected the whole church with the poison of avarice. "If the pope behaves like this, people say, why shouldn't we?" On a quite ordinary day, his master, Pope John XXII, excommunicated one patriarch, five archbishops, thirty bishops and forty-six abbots. Their only crime: they were behind in paying the pope his taxes. "
# "Petrach's friend, Machiavelli wrote: "The Italians owe a great debt to the Roman church and its clergy. Through their example, we have lost all true religion and become complete unbelievers. Take it as a rule, the nearer a nation dwells to the Roman Curia, the less religion it has."
# "St. Catherine of Sienna told Pope Gregory XI that she did not need to visit the papal court to smell it. 'The stench of the Curia, Holiness, has long ago reached my city.' "
# "In the 15th century, St. Antonino, Archbishop of Florence, disapproved of his city selling bonds at a profit: this was usury. When his critics argued, "The Roman church allows it", Antonino replied: "Members of the Curia have concubines. Does that prove that concubinage is lawful?" The sheer ordinariness of his argument is striking."
# "One reason for there being more prostitutes in Rome than in any other capital city was the large number of celibates. The convents were often brothels. Women sometimes took a dagger with them to confession to protect themselves against their confessor."
# The 16th centuries scholar Erasmus, one of the wittiest men of his or any age, said the tyranny of Rome was worse than that of the Turks. He wrote a sketch in which Pope Julius is trying to bluster his way past St. Peter at the heavenly gates. Peter screws up his eyes, unable to recognize a successor (of St. Peter) in this bearded warrior. Julius removes his helmet and dons his tiara. Peter is even more suspicious. Finally an exasperated Julius holds up his keys in front of Peter's nose. The apostle having examined them, slowly shakes his head. "Sorry, but they will not fit anything in this Kingdom."
# The Dutchman, Pope Adrian VI, confessed to the diet of Nuremberg in 1522 that all evils in the church proceeded from the Roman Curia. "For many years, abominable things have taken place in the chair of Peter, abuses in spiritual matters, translations of the commandments, so that everything here has been wickedly perverted."
# "The Jesuit scholar and papal defender, Robert Cardinal Bellarmine was later to admit: "For some years before Luther and Calvin there was in the church almost no religion left." The papacy, he said, had almost eliminated Christianity."

[Blue_Chill]

9. You avoid a serious question and instead

do exactly what you always do. Bash Catholics. This is why I called you an Ant-Catholic. You never miss a chance to bash Catholics. In fact in threads that are meant to unite us all you have been known to enter in and launch into attacks.

You compare yourself to liberals that seek to make America better? hehe. Motive is what seperates you from them. They seek a better tomorrow, you seek only to attack your former employer.

You take a liberal stance on every issue and point your finger at the pope in accusation. Yet when asked to justify your stance with your religion you ignore the question. What type of spiritual leader are you anyway? I have yet to meet another of you ilk that avoids question concerning faith and prefers to zero in on more attacks.

[Liberator_Rev]

14. Who's avoiding the issues.

I keep presenting unassailable historical FACTS, even quoting Saints and Popes, and all you Catholic apologists can do is to continue attacking this one messenger. All I am saying is exactly what Cardinal Baronius said:
In his sixteenth-century Ecclesiastical Annals, which the famous Catholic Lord Acton called 'the greatest history of the Church ever written", Cardinal Baronius was understandably embarrassed by events he recorded with remarkable honesty. The pontiffs of this period he described as "invaders of the Holy See, less apostles than apostates". On the Chair of St. Peter sat not men but monsters in the shape of men: "Vainglorious . . . filled with fleshly lusts and cunning in all forms of wickedness governed Rome and prostituted the Chair of St. Peter for their minions and paramours."
And this is the lesson he drew from all his observations :
"The chief lesson of these times is that the Church can get along very well without popes. What is vital to the Church's survival is not the pope but Jesus Christ. He is the head of the Church, not the pope."

[JohnKleeb]

12. Its his 1066th

and lets go worship the saints too blue chill. He is picking a fight with at the least 1 out of 10 DUers.

[Droopy]

6. I can feel the flames already

And their not the kind from hell. Lol. Now you're going to have the Catholics after you as well as the atheists. I think I'm going to head out to the lounge or somewhere before I get burnt!

[Loonman]

8. I like the Pope

But I don't like some of the Bishops and Cardinals.

JPII is a good man.

[JohnKleeb]

11. me too

I hate Opus Dei for the record. I am a mainstream Catholic you could call me Uniterian or Agonstic if you talked to me. I will defend agonstics against right wing Catholics who like the rev here use unfair tactics to dismiss those they disagree with. JPII may not be the best pope ever but he has done much good. Rev why do you always have to delibertly pick fights with the Catholic population here. You realize we were mistreated when we came here and were called pope lovers I bet you would be on the side of Bill the Butcher in Gangs of New York instead of Amnsterdam and Priest and the Irish Catholics. You realize that the right wingers hate us too they would probably not like you because of your "liberalism" but your hatred of Catholics you two would be like two flies on shit. I dont agree with the pope on all things but I respect the man. I am critical of the church's policies some of them but unlike you I present them normally and I am not a ass to those who disagree.

[Tigermoose]

10. I'm not Catholic, but you need to chill.

As one Christian to another, your biggest stumbling block is your pride, and possibly you need to pray regarding that. You seem to think that you've stumbled on "the truth" of a religious institution that has been around for like 2000+ years. Take a deep breath, admit that Catholics are your Christian brothers and sisters, and work towards Love rather than negativity and ideological propaganda of your particular interpretation.

No offense, but I'd rather read Augustine, Acquinas, St. Paul, Montaigne, Pascal, and any number of popes before I granted you the level of respect I give them.

Again, I'm not Catholic, but I respect the Catholic church in its service to Christianity. Perhaps it got too dogmatized and focused upon negativity rather than the positive application of Christ working through us, but it can be seen as an institution that is of 2 parts -- divine and mortal, like the human being. Thus, although it will strive for the divine, it is often corrupted by the flesh. Leave the judgments to God.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. Thank you for a wise and charitable post, Tigermoose. There are

no perfect human beings or human institutions but fortunately there are also few humans or institutions that have no redeeming qualities. We all choose whether to look for the good in others or to look for the bad. I think that Jesus gave us a strong suggestion as to what is best when he told the men who were about to stone the woman caught in adultery "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

Then there's the verse about removing the log from your own eye before worrying about the mote in your neighbor's eye. ;-)

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blueseas]

15. Locking

This is offensive to many of the Catholic Faith and as such is against DU rules


http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#bigotry

Thanks cluedin
DU Mod

[cally]

16. I'm locking

This thread has deteriated into personal attacks.

[Crowdance]

17. Rev, I admire your courage!

You are constantly here challenging people to truly THINK about what they advocate, and to analyze whether the message they continually strive to deliver is a distortion of the original.

I admire your ability to withstand the flood of insults that come your way, always responding with a cogent argument against absurd emotionalism.

You are a man who has given thought, not just rote memorization, to the great questions. You haven't offended this DUer at all. In fact, I wish I could find within myself the courage you seem to own, contantly willing to proclaim the truth you have found.