Rockstar games and GTA

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok, Ok we have had some rants started by those who play the game who see this as censorship. What exactly did RockStar do to get them into this pickle? Lets examine this.

They released a game, Grand Theft Auto San Andreas which was turned over to the the Rating Board before release where they asked and subsequently got an M rating. This means that 17 year olds can buy it, but most imporntantly it also means that Wally Mart and other stores will carry it, when they will NOT carry the Adult games... which are sold to 18 an over.

Some background, the Rating System was created under pressure from the usual suspects some years back as a way for consumers to have an idea of what the content in the game happens to be. The M content describes vilence (yes) language and sexual situatins. All of thise are in GTA:SA. The description for adult just raises the bar for this. Not by much, but enough where some may think this is pornographic. The game was submited, and reviews by the team and slapped with an M rating... all is well

Now the developers left in the distribution disk a MOD, Hot Coffee... which when unlocked raises the bar and pushes this game to the Adult Only side. Now it does not matter whether the content was lef there accidentally, or it required a third party to develop the electronic key to open this... the fact is they never informed the board that this, colloquially known, easter egg was there. These eggs are present in many propgrams, but this one actually changes the rating of the game.

Now some people are claiming that it is censorhip to ask a manufacturer to remove this from a distribution disk.... really, so what are people are telling me is that it is fine to lie? This is exaclty what is being justified. I don't need to play GTA;SA or any other incarnation to know the game has some violence and other beauties. As is these days I have barely time for work... but I do know the damage Rockstar Entertainment has done to the rating system is quite severe. In their little joke they have added some air to them sails that had basically had that air removed with the formation of the rating board. The industry, insofar as they are concered, cannot be trusted to self regulate..... by the way a similar problem was faced by hollywood until they fianlly decided to enforce the rating systems... and the Rating Board has two choices, fine Rockstar (and they will, severely) and push the ratings of ALL their games to Adult Only, I cannot trust them to tell the truth now... or face the wrath of Cngress.

Try to defend Rockstar now people.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

1. People pushing this are acting as though there are kids harmed.

When in actuality, it affects kids of one age, those 17.

I don't defend Rockstar, but Im tired of the "save the children" crap.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I am also tired of those who claim that the rating system is

censorship, that is BS.. for the record the politicos involved, them are chldren (from brain development I could say that for a 22 year old male that is another story), they are children... and Rockstar's little manouver just added hurricane speed winds to them sails

[dissent1977]

123. But it is an M rated game out of the package

It would only get the AO rating if you were to download the mod and install it seperately. There are all kinds of mods for many different games, but these are not considered in the ratings. If you can't even access this content out of the package then I see no reason they should have to change the rating.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. So you know for a fact that ONLY 17 year olds

and older kids play this game? No kids under 17 ever play this game??

[SemiCharmedQuark]

86. I know for a fact that the game says right on it it is not for kids under

17.

If their parents let them play it anyway and then are shocked because they thought they were letting their 8 year old play a game intended for 17 year olds and older instead of a game for kids 18 and older, that is absolutely ridiculous.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Parents are not shocked or maybe they aren't paying attention

because lots of kids play games rated for adults only.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. That my dear falls under parental responsbility

what I posted above falls under Producer responssibility

As a matter of fact I do not run any RPG session with any kid under 11, but hey that is just me. And when I do, I keep it clean and safe and I do not go anywhere adults may want to go

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. Well, my dear, I am hoping a few parents are

reading this thread. :)

[dissent1977]

144. Sure younger kids play it, but they are not supposed to

Young kids watch R rated movies too sometimes, but they are not supposed to do that either. This game was an M rated game out of the box, it could be patched to make it a game that would have earned an AO rating. The fact is though it is not an AO game unless you modify the code. It does not matter that the code was in there already, because it took a modification to access it. You can do virtually anything with mods, and to say this one is different because it uses actual game code as opposed to one that is made from scratch is a distinction that does not matter. The fact is it is a mod either way, and therefore should not fall under the ESRB ratings unless it is submitted seperately.

[Kraklen]

3. "Now personally I would love to see them slapped with fines"

-OP in the other thread.

How anybody's not supposed to see that as censorship is beyond me.

[SaveElmer]

5. If they don't follow the guidelines they agreed to.

They ought to be fined. They were free to provide that content as long as they disclosed it. Simple...not censorship.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. So yuo have no problem with them inserting this

easter egg?

You DO REALIZE the damage they have done to the Rating System, don't you?

[greyl]

23. It's not an Easter Egg, and it isn't a MOD included with the game. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Is it or is it not part of the distribution disk?

If it is part of the distrigution disk is in there.

[greyl]

27. Not really. Plus it violates their EULA to use the mod.

It's almost like saying that because one can download "un-censor" patches for under 18 characters in The Sims that EA games can be forced to change their rating. edit: or be banned completely for including "child pornography" /edit
The nudity is "included" on The Sims disks, but not meant to be accessible. - just like San Andreas.

[SaveElmer]

29. C'mon...

Then why include it...they knew someone would figure a way in...looks to me like they were trying to circumvent the rules!

[charlie]

33. Big assumption

Rockstar may not have known about the extra content. Really. Easter eggs have often been slipped into programs surreptitiously by coders.

[SaveElmer]

35. Still their responsibility...

However, given the disingenousness of their initial response I would say they probably did know!

[greyl]

36. What about nudity and nude children in The Sims then?

"Take-Two spokesman Jim Ankner acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that the questioned scenes were created by Rockstar programmers. "The editing and finalization of any game is a complicated task and it's not uncommon for unused and unfinished content to remain on the disc," he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050721/ap_en_ot/video_game_sex_25

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that Take-Two was hoping to temporarily get around the rules with the hopes that the mod would eventually be created. What would be their motivation for that?

and again, what about nudity and nude children in The Sims?

[SaveElmer]

39. I am not a game manufacturer or programmer...

But I am a computer programmer, and I know very well that any systematic and competent code review will find these kinds of things.

I have also seen posts on this topic from those in the industry agreeing that this easter egg should have been removed...and doubt the veracity of Rockstars claims of ignorance.

And of course, what would you expect a spokesman of the company to say?

[greyl]

43. What's their motivation?

To lose distribution and profits?

[charlie]

Or in Disney product?

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/rescuers.htm

These games are enormous code projects, managing them is like being mayor of a small city. Unauthorized content can and will continue to turn up in them, unbeknownst to their publishers.

[SaveElmer]

50. But why include the pornographic content in the first place...

Why would they have produced it at all...is some requirements manager sitting there saying..."gee...just for fun lets add some explicit sex to the game...I know we can't use it cause we will get an AO rating and be shut out of WalMart and Target, and I know it will take time and resources...but what the heck...lets do it anyway."

If programmers are doing this on their own and their managers don;t know about it, they are poor managers, and these employees ought to be canned.

ANd, once Rockstar found out what was on there, they should have immedietely taken responsibility for it...instead they hide behind technicalities after first denying it!!!

[charlie]

62. Why did Disney include nekkid boobies?

I doubt there's a company more concerned about their public reputation than Disney, but there it is. Your assertion that "any systematic and competent code review will (my emphasis) find these kinds of things" is wrong. Any code project of sufficient size has cruft, a lot of it undocumented, in spite of efforts to to adhere to best practices.

I have no idea whether Rockstar is telling the truth about its culpability. It's not implausible to me that they're not. But this situation will arise again (and again) and it won't be wise to assume that it's intentional.

[SaveElmer]

72. Exactly...

Disney did take responsibility for it once it became known...(if I am remembering the case correctly)

I know human beings are involved...and not everything can be accounted for...but a competent software review will catch most things..

And if something does slip through...take responsibility for it...an take steps to rectify it. It's not only in the consumers interest but the companies as well.

[Tux]

28. Yes

But with a few # those lines of code are ignored by the computer. It's not accessible. Rockstar isn't the first to do this. Lion Gates made Fable. Once hacked, there were plenty of areas of the game that weren't accessible since they were marked to be unread by the software. No big deal. What ERSB does is look for the material that IS accessible and nothing else. They are caving from weak minded parents who want everyone but themselves to raise their kids, APA who wants to ban all video games, and Hilary who wants to censor games "for the children". Is it dishonest? Not really. Microsoft Office 97 has a hidden knock-off of Doom in it yet it's not in the manual and hidden well. They weren't bitched at about it. Time to grow up and accept that all software does have code that isn't used in it. Windows, Office, all of it.

[SaveElmer]

34. I resent the slur on parents...

Trying to control what their kids see and play. Excatly how are parents supposed to know there is hidden content on a game if it wasn't submitted for review?

And of course, like all Hillary haters, you misrepresent her position. She is merely trying to get these manufacturers to abide by the rules they agreed to.

If you would like to see what her position actually is...here you go

http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=241138&&

[Tux]

45. Hidden content

And inaccessible content are 2 things. Without the mod, GTA:SA has no sex scenes that can be accessed through game play. The mod is required. If it was an Easter egg that is accessible through game play, I would understand. However, it doesn't change the fact that it needs a mod (modification) to access the content.

Hilary can bite me. ERSB does work. It's based on what is accessible through game play. If they searched the source code, games would take years to be released just for a rating. The main problem of the ratings system is the fact parents rarely check it. They don't see what age group it's for nor the back to see why it has that rating. Parents are too ignorant and assume everything is made for kids since they now have kids. Am I harsh on parents? Yes. When I was a kid, my dad would check for violence in games before ERSB. He worked 10 hours per day, 6 days a week with a wife who had 3 strokes. He still had time to be around me and my mom. He didn't go to bars since his family was more important.

The essence of the argument, for me, is parental responsibility vs parental laziness.

[SaveElmer]

48. Obviously it became accssible or this would not be an issue

And exactly how was a parent supposed to know that a mod was required to get to this...or that it could be accessible with a mod.

I agree that parents need to take responsibility...which many do (including myself), but there also needs to be corporate responsibility..

Rockstar fucked up and should come clean!!!

[Tux]

67. Er

And exactly how was a parent supposed to know that a mod was required to get to this...or that it could be accessible with a mod.

Research it once it hits the news like: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=hot+coffee&btnG=Search+News

I applaude the fact that you do care for your kids as people and not see them as tax deductions only. But, parents have many resources they can use online. http://www.esrb.org/ http://www.gamerdad.com/index.cfm http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/esrb.html http://www.ign.com/ http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/reviews/bigkid/gentertainment/list http://www.commonsensemedia.org/ Plus, DU parents can ask gamers here about game content if they are still concerned. Don't say that parents are alone in this, they're not. I am hard on parents but damn it, raise the kids. I know that once the teens of today run for President, I'm leaving. I fear them more than Bush.

[SaveElmer]

73. It has to be a joint effort...

Companies have to take responsibility for what they are producing. If they fuck up, they need to fix it...and don't try to hide behind excuses and technicalities.

It takes a village man!!!

[Tux]

75. Village?

Hell no! As a stranger, what right do I have to raise another's kid? NONE. I want parents to have rights to raise their kids properly but they have to do it. I like M rated games. I want to keep them. I want to play them. But I have no right to determine how you raise your kid as long as they are cared for. You do what is best for the kid. No one else can do that. If needed, I can dig up more resources but that is all I can do.

As for Rockstar making a mistake, look at the game Fable. Half of the game isn't accessible at all. Players were mad once it was discovered with a hack but it never got to Congress. All software has hidden code that isn't usable.

[SaveElmer]

80. Bottom line...

Rockstar fucked up...plain and simple.

You want parents to be responsible for their actions, but exonerate these companies for any responsibility for their obvious incompetence and excuse making.

They need to be responsible for their own screw ups...or someone will do it for them!!! Just because they are a gaming company doesn't relieve them of this.

As far as the village thing I obviously wasn't talking about you personally, god forbid, but each member or entity in society must do their best to take responsibility for their own actions, including business!!!

As far as the hidden code or whatever...obviously if certain persons were able to gain access than it wasn't hidden that well...certainly Rockstar, who presumably has competence in this area would have known that. They should have taken steps to be sure it didn;t happen.

[Tux]

81. Fine

Rockstar made a mistake. Code wasn't accessible through normal gameplay. During the entire time I played the game, those sex scenes never appeared. Big deal. A modification to the code opened those scenes. Guess what? Don't use the mod! I'm not making excuses for them, I'm telling you how it is. Game companies have a deadline to operate with. Searching all code to be removed would take weeks and delay the release. By commented out some core code, those sex scenes were disabled.

Was it a mistake? Sure, those scenes aren't needed for the game. Will Rockstar correct it now that parents are now bitching about it? Sure, best to keep them quiet. Should video games be heavily censored or banned? No, that is something conservatives would do.

I do agree that each person needs to take responsibility for their actions or we'd be no better than Bush Inc. However, all of America shouldn't act as babysitters either. ERSB gave them the rating (based upon a group of non-gamers who evaluated the game) based on the content that is accessible. It'd take weeks to filter through the source code and ERSB uses the general public to rate games who also aren't programmers. I can't understand the code so who would rate it? I prefer the general public like ERSB does now. It's fair, it works, and this is just an excuse to censor something people don't like or understand "for the children's sake".

So far this week, conservative parents bitched about Harry Potter and liberal parents bitched about GTA. Seems like both sides are crazy and should be more concerned about children who lack healthcare in this nation.

[SaveElmer]

85. I have no problem with the ratings system

It works great when companies fully disclose their content...

Had Rockstar taken the time to review their code this whole mess might not have occurred...hopefully they learned their lessen.

Not babysitters... but if everyone takes responsibility for their actions, then everyone can have confidence that systems in place to help parents make these decisions is working.

And I really wouldn't compare conservative critics of Harry Potter, to critics of GTA. To my mind, criticisms of Harry Potter are an irrational fear of the content. Criticism of GTA is because of a lack of disclosure. As far as I'm concerned, GTA can put whatever they want on their games, I just ask that they disclose what is on there. If their procedures are at fault for this screw up I ask that they fix those procedures so it doesn't happen again...

[InfoMinister]

104. Have You Actually Seen What All of the Fuss Is About?

IMO even with the hidden code revealed it should have remained an M rated game. The sex scenes are so laughably lame it's absolutely ridiculous that I'm seeing parents make a big deal about it. The characters even keep their clothes on during the whole thing. Also, the mod makers did add some things of their own to it. They patched the female character with a texture to make them nude. Otherwise, the characters are fully clothed during the whole thing and no genitals are ever shown.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Yuo know wny they are making the fuss?

it is not about the parents, trust me on this one... Rockstar is paying a price for hidign this from the rating syustem... the message is... you kept this from us, so what else is in there that we should know and yuo did not tell us?

The Ratings people are trying hard to take them winds off them sails.. that is what is going on, and they should

[InfoMinister]

116. I'm Wondering If They Even Knew

What I'm wondering is if this was something that was supposed to be removed and one of the programmers on the game was just lazy and just didn't feel like removing it entirely. Do you think that from the beginning when the company submitted the game they intentionally deceived the ESRB?

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. here i s the article circulating

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Excuse me but it DOES TAKE A VILLAGE

to raise a child, this BS that the company is NOT reponsible is just that unadulterated BS. This is why we have many problems in this country.... it is not my fault or responsibitly, pass the buck... guess what it does take a village and Rockstar SHOULD take responsibity... but given teh attitude of they can't do no wrong, I see they will not

[Tux]

138. Yeah, sure

This is why we have many problems in this country....
America was never intended to be a nanny state. Just because I don't want the government to raise people's kids doesn't mean it's ruining America.

given teh attitude of they can't do no wrong
All companies do wrongs at times. Some far more severe than others. A video game MEANT for adults or mercury in water. Of course, parents go for video games since dumbasses bought an M rated game for Jr. and don't want to admit a mistake.

As for the village argument, it's lame. Hilary ruined parents with that. Now, parents are no longer responsible for their actions. A kid gets arrested, it's Rockstar's fault. If a kid jumps of the house, it's Marvel's or DC's fault. Time for parents to grow up and take adult responsibility like Americans. There was a time when going to the Moon seemed impossible and we did it. Now, asking parents to read a fucking label on a plastic box is truly impossible. What the fuck happened?

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. They don't teach no history at them fancy schools no more

It used to be a value in this coutry where everybody watched out for the nenighborhood kids. No this is not a mythical past, but reality... why the reasons are many including in lower class neighborhoods the fact that parents worked and children were at home

Was it ideal? No, but it created a sense of community. You should read some of that history, such as Hull House... maybe you will get what we have lost in this ME attitude you exhibit

[Tux]

145. Me attitude?

Who is advocating censorship so you never have to be a real parent?

Community is lost now days. I barely remember those days. Things changed and this is what we have but to bring people together as a community so you don't have to be a parent is selfish.

Oh, since you are so concerned about kids, aren't you worried about public education, CAFTA, Patriot Act, and such. I am. My Rep hears from me almost daily. What have you done other than demand I be your kid's eternal babysitter?

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. ah the Me and I attitude you exhibit is amazing

now let me tell you some consequences, since there is no longer a sense of community, you don't care what happens to your neighbors.

you also confuse censorship with requiring a corporation to follow the rules they promised to FOLLOW, as MEMBERS of a professional organization.

Nobody has told them to stop producing the game that would be censorship.. you bandy terms that you have no clue what they truly mean... those of us with a sense of history know what they mean.

By the way, I don't have children of my own, but in my non selfish ways I have helped raised a high risk kid, where we used Gaming to take him away from the gangs, he is going to college these days. If I had taken your attitude he may have ended up dead or in jail, how bout them apples? Two years from now he will be graduating, and he may marry soon after.

As to what I do every day to take this country back from the corporate fascists you are willing to give a free pass (as long as they produce games) you have no idea what I have done, where I have sent letters or who I have sent material too. Suffice it to say, I have done far more than JUST send letters to my reps... and the risks I have taken are very real. If Bush should win in the end I do expect to be in the fist wave of people arrested and no this is not paranoia... but I happen to know history, and I still took the risks.

Now when we have REAL censorship you may recognize this for what it is... and censorship it is not.

[Tux]

151. LOL

you don't care what happens to your neighbors.

So from my posts, you know how I live my entire life? Nice. Patriot Act is working. All I can say is, I no longer care. If you want Republicans to say "Dems want gov to raise your babies!" and lose more elections, have at it. I don't want parents to force everyone else to raise kids. Other parents would lose their ability to raise their kids as they see fit. It's not much to ask for. As for ignorance, try a spell-checker.

you also confuse censorship with requiring a corporation to follow the rules they promised to FOLLOW, as MEMBERS of a professional organization.
Oh those ratings that games receive based on content? Same ratings used for Do You Like Horny Bunnies? 1 and 2? They aren't following scripture here. They are making a game, not a poisoned apple. No guidelines except for what rating the game gets. Game made first then rated. That simple.

you have no idea what I have done, where I have sent letters or who I have sent material too
And you know everyone I cantacted? Nice.

I have done far more than JUST send letters to my reps
So do I. I boycott unethical companies (real ones), support my church's clothing charity, assist church kids with computers, and try to narrow the gap in the culture wars in my town as I look for a job. You don't know me at all. Assume all you want but I am more than a series of posts. This "me attitude" you accuse me of has no merit. If it is true, show one post from me where I said corporations can do as they will. I am not a libertarian.

[Name removed]

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[Tux]

163. But

I have to get the last word (I'll admit it) and I have coffee here too so you will fall sleep before me.

Anyways, we can agree that parents need to be more responsible, not jump on people's backs for having fun, corporations need cleaner code (more stable games), and focus on real issues like CAFTA (fucking Rep will vote for it, may run against him to remove free trade outsourcing shit).

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Really I have coffee too

and taht is not the point...

Corpopratiions also need to be more responsible, like it or not we need to resotore a sense of community wehre we all are working for the same thing... that is where the repukes have succeeded beyonnd their wildest dreams... divide and conquer...

As to CAFTA, yes it is critical, but this is not a threat about CAFTA.

It has consequneces related to CAFTA (where the games will end up being produced) but it is NOT about CAFTA

[Tux]

168. Really?

So outsourcing isn't as important as a game?

I agree with the community part but as America fragmented into smaller sub-cultures, it's harder to integrate people. Just on religion alone people are divided. It will not happen over night and EVERYONE must do it but demanding everyone to be babysitters won't unite people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. you are missign the point on purpose

by the way outsourcnig of the coding will happen, that is where CAFTA matters to this, in fact woudl not surprsie me if Rockstar starts outsourcing soon to India....

As to community, you are confisuing babyseating with actually participating in community... you confuse a rating system with baby seating... get over the baby seating and try to see where you can improve your community locally.

As a student of history this country has only been divided this badly once before, the hot summer of 1859... not even the hot summer of 1776 was this bad.

[Tux]

173. Sociology 101

A sub-culture is a smaller group within a larger group. Evangelicals are a sub-culture within Christianity. Same with Goths, punks, jocks, geeks, etc. We have been divided sub-culturally since the 1960's when the counter-culture appeared to go against the Vietnam war. Once that was done, it spawned other sub-cultures like New Age, libertarianism (fascism), black culture (lead to hip-hop culture), rock/metal, post-moderns, distinct Northern/Southern cultures, Confederate culture (stupid lag for a non-existent nation), etc. It is only getting worse.

I do like community. I am active in my UU community. I just don't want participation to mean to babysit other's kids. That is what you are saying. Ratings do help parents but only if parents are willing to be parents which isn't happening. As for helping my local community, I do. This town has less gap between the fundies and liberals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

175. Thanks for the class prof

but most of them divisions are actually quite artificial, and partly forced by a corporate structure that needs it

marxism 101, once the working class realizes it is under pressure by the bourgeoisie it will put aside all these artificial divisions and work together. Now Marx had many problems, chiefly execution sucks, but one thing he was correct on, these divisions benefit the power elites.

And disclaimer here I am no marxist, just happen to know Marx as well as a couple others ... including the father of sociology himself, who saw this as well.

[Tux]

178. True

But as long as people buy into it, it won't change. There were posts that games waste their lives and are losers. We now that isn't true...generally. But that perception exists and one among many such views. Until people see Americans, we can't get past it. ID is big right now due to consumerism. People need ID based on interior qualities, not material crap.

If we let any politician start to question video games, it will lead to censorship, banning, and move to other mediums.

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. What this ugly politico wants to do is make sure the rating

system as it exists works... that is what she wants.

now Johnson and Focus on the Family want to ban them altogether, which IS censorship.

I actually am capable of seeing both sides.. try it for a change, but this stunt, whether on purpose or not, will make my life more difficult.

[Tux]

181. Ban

Ratings do work. But as I have shown, parents are the weakest link in this issue. We can require ID but kids can easily trick parents into buying the game anyways. We can censor them and reduce income for these companies so they can lay people off but hey, games are kids only again. Then, if a kid slides a digital car into a wall and cries, ban them all. Slippery slope. I do see it from several angles but I have chosen the angle of freedom. Parents have freedom to raise their kids, I keep my games, companies can make the games, retailers can sell the games, and people are employed. No that hard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

184. You keep going back to the parents

I keep gioing back to Rockstar which lied, and due to their lie they got a lower rating than they would ahve otherwise.

This is the core of the matter

Keep arguing about parents, please. And do not see the problem here... I know you like your games, but you need to hold them responsible

[Tux]

186. Responsible?

Your making excuses why parents shouldn't have to monitor their kids activities. let everyone do it. Rockstar isn't the problem. The problem is any parent that would allow a kid to play the game in the first place. Most games aren't made for kids as you know. However, if parents can't do their job, why even bother? Again, that content wasn't enabled. Much like your appendix, it does nothing till altered. The 3rd party mod isn't made by Rockstar. That simple. The hacker isn't the fault either. It's the parents who bought JR. the game after NOT reading the label, NOT reading reviews, NOT asking the clerks about the games and rating, and NOT doing their duty as a parent. If the kid used the mod, parents need to do their job. If an adult used the mod, who cares? If Rockstar left the code in, big deal. I can find sexual references in the Bible. Should we censor that too or blame God?

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. I have not said at any moment that parents should not be

responsible but in this case parents don't matter, the company lied, the company got caught, the company is paying a price. And this has NOTHING do do with censorship

You are the one who wants to give Rockstar a free pass... hey they should not be held responsible for their actions... well they are.. they should and they have done some serious damage... there will be some fallout and this has NOTHING to do with parents, so STOP PASSING THE DAMN BUCK!

[Tux]

190. OK

I'll stop with the crazy idea that this isn't Rockstar's fault. Let parents stop being responsbile. You do promote the village to raise the child afterall. Can't have parents doing their job.

Rockstar did make a mistake but hell, what company doesn't? It's not like this content is serious. It's not causing birth defects.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. Again why do you insist on black or white

look this is an error Rockstar did... the fallout will be with the board and the wind in the sails of certain social conservatives, which by the way Hillary is not the one that should worry you.

Parents are part of the formula in raising children, but that is not the issue here... and that is what is so maddening here... you want one or the other.

Parents have a role, society has a role, and corporations have a role in society... social responsibility starts at home, but continues at the company and society in general, Working societies know this. Why is this concept so alien to people today I don't know, but yes, Rockstar will pay its price.... as to the damage will see... Dobson has been chomping at the bit for something like this.

[Tux]

194. Shit

I've been around parents to know that this means they no longer will have to check ratings since government will do it for them. path of least resistance.

Yes, corporations need to be responsible but they never will. When I was a temp computer tech at a PC company, I overheard their sales trainer tell them to say ANYTHING to sell stuff. I do mean anyting like free shipping (lie), we'll send a tech to run defrag (lie), we'll help them use Word 5 times a day (lie), and so on. Laws can't change that. Only the leaders there and the stockholders. People must change their views.

Same with social conservatives. They have a hard time dealing with socio-cultural change. Why else would they want to go back to a "golden age"? They are nervous over the Internet, feminism, non-Christian religions, philosophy (not my thing but still there), and a host of changes especially with video games and other electronics. At least from what I seen of them.

To raise a child, it needs parents that care. I don't see that. Corporations don't care. No one does. All people care about is money and material crap. I want to change things but it will take more than a game. It needs a redefinition of society both socially and spiritually.

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. But it all starts when we hold them responsible

I don't shop at wally mart, because of their practices, I take my truck to the local mechanic, not the dealership... I don't shop from companies that put money and profit ahead of ethics... every step I take is a small glimmer of change.

I try to shop at local places, not the big stores. I try to shop blue... for obvious reasons and when a company does something they should pay a price I don't come up with excuses. whether this is Enron or Rockstar that is unimportant...

I also try to live my life clean and as an example to others... Trust me I don't hold these standards for others and except myself from them. Hell as a start up I don't have that much money hence I do all the work these days, with some help from good friends... I could have offered work for people to pay them later... and then never pay them (that has happened to me) and I will never do that.

This is how you change... you don't demand parents raise their kids... some will and if they ask for help give it to them... but you hold people responsible and you do not pass the buck... try to live by the golden rule don't do onto others what you would not want them to do to you...

Is this hard? absolutely, but you will be able to sleep at night.

[dissent1977]

124. It really doesn't matter if it is on the disc if you can't access it

You need the mod to get to this part of the disc, therefore there is no reason it should be rated. I am sure you could find all kinds of raunchy material in many different games if you looked at the code, but since this is not immediately accessable it is not rated. It also must be noted that this mod was put out by an independent programer, not Rockstar.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. read this

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd ...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[dissent1977]

139. I have read that, but it doesn't matter...

The fact is no one could access this bit of code without modifying the software. Rockstar's original statement was true, if you did not add the mod you could not see the sex scene. It really was accessed by hackers, whether it was in the games code already or not the fact is you do have to alter the code to see it.

[rman]

182. A "MOD" is by definition a *modification* of a game

Since this hidden content was build in the game from the beginning, it is not a mod. And since it is a 'hidden extra', it is appropriate to call it an "easter egg".

[stanwyck]

40. Not censorship. You're missing the point

perhaps intentionally.
The company is being dishonest. They know game players like all their little "secret squirrel" I know something you don't bells and whistles. Fine. But it's deceptive. You know it. They know it. And don't kid yourselves, this is marketing. You're being played. You buy because of this wink-wink stuff. It makes you feel like you're in a secret society of superior gamers.
Fine.
But just know this: you're being played. This is deceptive. Knowingly deceptive. Because it works. It sells. And your continued rants about "censorship" (when we're really talking about honesty) are exactly what these companies want.
You're falling right into line and being an unpaid promoter.
They know you. They know what you like. They know the buzz you'll create for their dirty little tricks.
Congratulations. You're doing just what you've been programmed to do.

[Tux]

84. hehehe

It makes you feel like you're in a secret society of superior gamers.
Yup. Gamers are the cultural elites GOP has been talking about. We plan to turning all children into atheistic gays who worship Satan aka Harry Potter. We have made great strides and will continue to do so. Beware the joystick! :sarcasm:

[SaveElmer]

4. Yeah I pretty much agree...

Consumers have a right to know what is in the products they buy...in this case the manufacturere seems to have deliberately hidden content in order to get a lower rating.

They deserve the criticism they are getting

[ixion]

7. gee, I hadn't really worried about picking up GTA:SA, but now

I'm going to have to run right out and buy it. :evilgrin:

I say this to make a point...

The only thing that censoring does is increase consumer interest in obtaining the item, despite the pleas of prozac security-moms with way too much time on their hands, IMO. The record rating system is a prime example of this.


Seriously, don't we have more important things to worry about?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Actually as a small RPG Company President

this will affect me...

By the way, why is it that asking a company to abide by guidelines they prmoised to follow is seen as akin to censorship?

[ixion]

17. I guess because guidelines are a form of censorship

and one might, when pressed, commit to following those guidelines then walk away and think "why did I say I would? To hell with those guys. I'm going to design the game I want to design."

No one likes to be told what to do, or that they can't create something 'outside the guidelines'.

My feeling is that if people are offended they shouldn't play/buy the game. GTA is already way violent without the mod...I think if someone was offended by violence they just wouldn't play the game in the first place. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Nobody told them they could not design that game with mod and

all, hell they can, just be honset about it and get the adult only rating...

[SaveElmer]

26. Guidelines are not censorship...

The only reason for not following the guidelines is to hide content because you believe certain people will not buy your game. That may be true, but it is a business and it is the consumers right to know what they are buying.

You are free to put whatever you want in the game, you are not free to hide that from the consumer before they buy the game!

[youspeakmylanguage]

38. So professional jealousy isn't a motivating factor here?

And how violent are some of these games?

As president of your company, I'm sure you are aware of every line of code being inserted into your game by your coders and designers. But if so, how do you find the time to hang out on DU?

EDIT: Sorry, it appears as though you play "Chaos Factory: A Place Beyond Hell" with cardboard and PDFs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. RLOL I have writtten for Louis Portier Desigts, this is funny

In fact I have, and Louis has a huge disclaimer as well, if you feel this is not apropriate for your kids, please keep it away from them.

We have the game at home, I have written (freelanced for him) and I will not play this game or run it with anybody under 18....

Ironic which example you chose to give us.

[greyl]

42. Is is a card deck RPG company?

Or maybe dice like D & D?

and speaking of the DSM...

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. RPG company

and when the novels come out, you can play a wonderful game of spot the actual news hidden in the fiction.

;-)

Hell go to the website and yuo can start playing that game with some of the background already there

deistgames.com

In the next 24 hours you will also find some photos of ComicCon international

[youspeakmylanguage]

44. BTW...

Why would you disable your profile but use your real name as your DU login?

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. I have not disabled a profile

but I do use my REAL Name in my online activities... all over the place, funny ain't it

[youspeakmylanguage]

202. ?

ERROR: No such user profile

The user has disabled his/her user profile.

[Payne]

9. This whole thing is BS

The sexual content doesn't even come with the game,you have to download a mod on the nets(where you could find much worse stuff)to unlock it.Anyway Rockstar will probably just make a new M rated version with the hidden sexual content taken out and a new mod with user created sexual content will come out in a week.In the end all this mess did was bring attention to a mod barely anyone knew about and it won't solve anything.Rockstar should have just put a label saying that the contents were subjected to change on the back of the box,kinda like what they do with games that have nets access.Also it pretty pathetic to judge people by the videogames they play Randr

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. No the Hot Coffee mod unlocks

an easter egg in the game that happens to be IN THE DISTRIBUTION DISK

[Tux]

30. Get your terms right

An Easter egg is accessible without a mod. Like some DVDs and other games. A mod alters some coding to add new feature like expansion packs and other cheap mods like the nude Sims mod. Two are completely different.

[SaveElmer]

13. The sexual content was on the disk...not the mod

It was included on the X-Box and PS2 versions of the game. The PC version is getting a patch, which is fine. Rockstar should have disclosed this content up front, or removed it if they wished to keep the M rating.

They agreed to these guidelines and the apparently, deliberately tried to circumvent them

[youspeakmylanguage]

41. How do you know Rockstar or anyone else "deliberately tried...

...to circumvent" anything? Do you know 100% of the facts in this case?

[SaveElmer]

46. No I don't...but their initial reaction was suspect.

FIrst denying, then making excuses. There is also the opinion of others posting in the industry who indicate that it is unlikely they did not know about it.

Even if you take the bast case scenario, and assume they did not know, their first reaction should have been to immediately fess up, offer refunds to those who had already purchased it, and to offer to relabel all the disks, or provide a mod free version to stores.

[youspeakmylanguage]

49. So lets get a mob together before all of the facts are known?

I want to know exactly what happened before I pass judgement, but hey, go ahead and rant all you want.

[SaveElmer]

51. Not a mob...

Just get them to take responsibility. Even if you believe it was an accident (still shows pretty shoddy project management if you ask me)

If they had come out immedietely and said "We apologize, we didn;t know this was there, we are immedietely taking steps to insure this doesn;t happen again." Offer refunds to those who have bought the game, and relable or replace existing ones...this would not be happening...

[youspeakmylanguage]

55. If this was content inserted by a third party without authorization...

...then why should Rockstar refund anyone's money? It isn't their fault!

Ask the Take-Two (Rockstar's parent company) shareholders if they feel it's their responsibility to sacrifice their money because of the actions of a European hacker.

[SaveElmer]

57. That's not the case...

The content was contained on the distribution disk...the mod allowed access to it apparently.

The same content appeardon the PS2 and Xbox versions.

If you take the position the company didn;t know about this, then we need to insist they take steps to insure it doesn;t happen again.

If they did know and were trying to get around the ratings, they should be fined.

[youspeakmylanguage]

60. How do you know this? (n/t)

[SaveElmer]

64. If you google the news story it has appeared on several news sites...

Rockstar has actually finally admitted it as well...though they claim they didn't know about it.

[SaveElmer]

65. If you google the news story it has appeared on several news sites...

Rockstar has actually finally admitted it as well...though they claim they didn't know about it.

[dissent1977]

127. Do you realize how much code is in Grand Theft Auto?

This could have easily been the work of a single programmer, or a small group of programmers who slipped it in without anyone in management realizing. To ask game manufacturers to go through every last line of code to ensure that there is nothing objectionable would be ridiculous. And honestly, if people can handle the rest of the content in GTA I don't think this little sex scene is going to do any harm especially when it can't be accessed without a mod. This is clearly labeled an adult game, and kids shouldn't be playing it anyways.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. O h I realzie it

millions of lines of code, I truly realize this... and the point again is? Management, good quality management

[GeekMonkey]

10. So, be a parent and don't depend on the 'rating system'

Has the thought of actually engaging with your children to KNOW what they are doing instead of having some third party rating system be the parent not occured ot you?

GEEZ, my kids (11,14,15) ALL play violent video games and none are any worse for wear. Of course, THEY know the difference between a video game and reality, so it's not a big deal.

YOU raise YOUR kids, I'LL raise MINE.

DEAL?

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Oh as a game producer I ENCOURAGE parents to get

involved,

Taht said, the reality right now is taht some parents out there are working two jobs each and don't have time to do this... the question woudl be, why did they have kids, but they have them, so they have to rely on third parties to make a decision at times.

And don't even try to tell me you screen EVERYTHING your kids watch, play and read.

[GeekMonkey]

19. I watch/play/read it right along with them, because its my JOB

as a parent.

If you are too busy chasing dollars to do that, that isn't my fault.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. My kids presently have feathers

taht said, if you do, I commend you, most parents DON'T do that

[Tux]

32. And that is the problem

most parents DON'T do that

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Has it occured to yuo that paretns do not have teh time

and NEED this rating system as an aide? By the way it came to be to avoid the feds getting involved, so what Rockstar did just gave them some wind to them sails

[Tux]

141. OK

Have parents ever used it? Rarely. I seen parents buy GTA for the kids. No problem for them. Time isn't as strained as parents say. They are just selfish enough to demand our society become a nanny state so parents can do as they please while the rest of us lose more freedoms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. I have also seen stores sell the game to kids who

are twelve, no adult present, and your point, what is your problem with a rating system? This is a libertarian attitude you have...

[Tux]

160. None with the rating system

I like it. I prefer it since it does help parents pick games. But why make it enforcable if parents aren't willing to use it? Require ID and a parent will buy it for the kid anyways. That simple. I have my dad buy me CDs with the label without question. Other kids can do it too. Simple trick: kid gets GTA, clerk says he can't buy it, run to mommy saying "bad man won't let me get kid's game", mommy mad and buys it for kid while yelling at clerk. Worked for me and same with other kids.

Until parents are willing to raise their kids, I want nothing to do with them. I am not a babysitter nor do I care to be one. All the parents have to do is parent.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Ihve seen stores sell the games with a nice little M

to kids, 12 and 14 no adult present, when raised with management, well they had to make their sales quota..

[Tux]

165. Sales quotas

Suck. I did temp at Dell and it doesn't work. I ordered a notebook PC and got stuck with shit I didn't want nor order. Took 14 hours on the phone to remove them. Quotas lead to questionable salepersons.

Best thing to do is to check my sig links, read reviews, and order online. Parents should never leave kids alone in public. Lazy parents can't even stand next to their kids or keep an eye on them. Grandparents would practiclly sit on me in stores.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. You ahve a problem with your paretns I see

Mine did not allow me to have a game machine at home, my first I got until I went to college... their reason, games are a waste of time... these days they will buy games for my niece, so I get stuck with the ever so popular what does this mean?

I think your problem is yuor parents, nothing personal... not all parents are like that by the way

By teh way see the ironacy what I do these days? Write games...

[Tux]

170. WTF?!

I have no problems with my parents. They played games with me. They did check for content BEFORE ERSB existed. They spent time with me. Parents nowdays refuse to do that....except when IRS comes calling. Again, you don't know me and your assumptions are wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. Re read your posts and you are also making huge assumptions

You are assuming all parents will not participate with their kids

What is your basis for this?

I work with parents on a regular basis. I have seen parents who are very involved... and in immensely involved, and i have seen the other extreme... has the so called liberal media gotten to you? Most parents are somewhere in betweeen... they need the ratings but they also try to spend time with the kids. But hey that is just me... I spend time around kids quite a bit, and by extensiion their parents, call it a profesional hazard if you will.

[Tux]

174. Sure they do

Local gaming store is nothing but free daycare. Parents drop kids off without knowing who is there. Not one concern. They pick them up later and all is good. Most of my neighbors don't look after their kids. If they did, kids wouldn't be jumping in front of cars, hanging around Wal-Mart at 1 am, sneaking boys through bedroom windows (I see lots of stuff when I smoke outside at night), and come home drunk on a school night. That is my neighborhood only. I overheard 2 women last Nov when I voted say that their kids were on drugs, arrested, and if courts can't help them, too bad. Sounds like community to me. Personally, I avoid kids because everyone excepts others to be free babysitters especially gaming stores here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. Yep that is why our local painting class

miniatures, includes parents and kids, sure you know what you are talking about...

As I said, soem parents are very involved, soem are not, and msot fall somewhere in between.

[Tux]

177. Shit

I go to play games with adults. I don't waste my time playing Pokemon or playing a kid that stacks his Magic deck. Hell, if they could let a game of D&D d20 be played without running off my players, I'd be fucking shocked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. That is why I recruit kids into gaming

and you scare them away... and your attitude, sadly, is very common... yuo are in college perchance?

I do show games to kids and we teach kids how to paint as well, pass on the hobby... and we run kids games as well (not under 11 for RPGs, child development and all that), But I am into growing the hobby, not chasing them away. I will also run games for adults, and if, and that is a big iff, if this game is held in a private space, trust me they turn adult very fast. Kids are present, we keep it clean

[Tux]

183. Joke

I graduated with a degree in psychology (experimental, not fluffy clinical).

Kids are the worst gamers. They cheat, they yell, they hate any game that isn't their favorite, and they disrupt any attempt at playing RPGs like hero System or D&D just because they can. Parents haven't taught them discipine and it's not my place to do so. Hell, most adults here act worse than the kids. Deity forbid I use magic missile instead of color spray since it's spell of the week.

Passing on the hobby is great but if kids aren't going to be respectful, why bother? Not my kids, not my responsiblity, and parents are the only ones that have the right to fix them. I can help if they ask but i will not be forced to do it over "the village".

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. Ah yes again the Me generation

fully personified.

Funny I have had some of the best games with kids and some of the worst with adults...

[Tux]

187. Get a clue

If the kids could act civilised for 5 minutes, I'd play with them. If they make howler monkeys appear civil, time to walk away. Again, it's not this "me attitude" you claim I have, it's me not raising the kids while mommy and daddy are ignoring Jr.

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. the me generation

it is not my job, it is somebody else... gee I am starting to fear that George Bush is the model of all future leaders of this country.

It is not my fault it is not my responsibility as long as I can get me and mine.

Oh and when I or my friends or those I like make a mistake, the buck stops somewhere else

How sad.

[Tux]

192. OK

So I should raise those kids, right? Screw how the parents want to raise them, I know better. Let me straighten them out.

Can't do it. Their parents are the ones who set the rules. Who am I to change that? I am not their parents. I am not willing to make critical decisions for other people's kids. Only the parent has that right. I can ask them not to jump in front of my car, not to throw my dice, and not to grab my gf's tits but I can't raise them. There is only so much that can be done without the parents.

If it was all about me, why am I trying to get my church to work with a local group that helps poor kids learn to read? Or set up a Linux PC with educational programs for the church kids? Or help donate and spread the word of a clothing charity for poor families? Sounds selfish to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. Actually you can

Example number one from a con, kid used brass dice, after being asked not to, kid was asked to leave the convention (He paid real consequence)

Example number two, kid came to store, hot headed and ready for a flight, punk and all. He sat at table we had patience, he is graduating college in two years (if he does not, we will have a talk)

Example number three, kid dropped paint and did not tell us, he was afraid, mom was present... kid was told, next time you drop it, you tell us and we clean it up,, by me, my husband and store manager... kid has subsequently changed behavior

Example number four, lid was bing a pain and even got into a fight, kid was expelled from the store.

See how this works? I just gave you a balance...

Oh and what is the common thread here? All actions have consequences. If I am the responsible adult present guess what I do have that authority.

[Tux]

195. Easier siad than done

I yelled at a kid for punching another kid in the ribs. I separated them and later mommy was upset that I touched Jr. So much for the other kid with bruises on his chest.

One grabbed my gf's tits and said that he'll fuck in the ass that night. When she screamed at him to leave her alone, she was asked to leave by the store owner. Nice.

When the adults do worse than that (throw rocks at stray cats, offer free all anal porn to kids, steal, lie, cheat, etc), it makes no difference. Not at all. If I become a villian from keeping a kid being beat in the ribs, I have no power of any of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. yes you do, how you choose to live your live

for the record, that store I woudd not shop there anymroe. Local store, they have similar attitudes, one day the owner asked why don't yuou play or shop here anymore?

I told him why, he was shocked... but it takes taking a stand. You have more power than you give yourself credit for... oh and as to the kid... next time... CPS and the local police... kid asasulted another kid, get my drift.

[Tux]

198. Cops

Could have but no cell phone and too concerned about his ribs. Slipped my mind. Other kid was arrested for trashing a guy's fridge he had stored outside. Karma.

That local store is out of business thanks to my gf and I. Owner had an attitude problem over paintball. I stopped going. Others joined once he bitched at them for not playing. Now he is opening another store and claims he won't let trouble makers in. We'll see.

[nadinbrzezinski]

199. There you have it, that was your power

[Tux]

200. At least

We're civil now. :freak: :argh: :freak:

[Hippo_Tron]

136. So why isn't Hillary concerned that parents have to work two jobs...

to make ends meet? John Edwards, on the other hand, isn't bitching about the content in a video game, but rather championing the idea that if people work 40 hours a week, they should be able to make ends meet and have enough time to be parents to their kids. Edwards isn't my favorite politican or anything, but he and others are preaching a real solution to the problem. Hillary isn't preaching a real solution to anything, she's pandering to a bunch of "values voters" that she won't win anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. Hillary has also mentioned the fact that pepple work two jobs

look this is mostly self inflicted by the board and this game compnay ...

[JNelson6563]

37. Personal responsibility

I agree with you. My son plays some games that are violent though we don't go for the more extreme ones. Some are far worse than others. The ones I consider to be trash we don't buy, easy-peasy.

While I have no problem dismissing some of these games as trash I like to think our Reps in Congress have better things to do right now.

If a gaming co. has not followed the rules let them pay their fine. As to the rest, well as long as people buy crap others will produce it and that's that. If parents don't want their kids playing certain games then don't buy them and keep an eye on the games that make it into the house. Congress of game manufacturers are not responsible for such things.

Julie

[gatorboy]

12. Is there a link to evidence that is was indeed embedded in the game

before the mod? From what I've read the only versions that work with the Hot Coffee patch are the Xbox versions and PC. The PS2 doesn't seem to have the option (Unless there's a code you can put in to open the HC option, which I haven't seen). I'm working on a Half-Life 2 mod right now. If I wanted to do something similar, it would be no problem.

On another note, it's funny that it's the sex aspect that's made people nuts. It's not like the game itself didn't already give you infinite possibilities in killing people. No, it's boobies, once again, that raises societie's shackles...

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Rockstar admited to it

that said, what makes me nuts is not the content iself... I could care less... it is that they lied to the board. In that they have done all sorts of damage to the rating system

[ender]

22. they took the call out.

what do you want, to submit source code for review?

no, you submit final product. like a film, some things end up on the floor, and not "in the game"... althought the scene was shot, it was removed.

it just happens that someone was able to find the scene on the flor and put it back in.

i dont understand your position at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. This was in the distribution disk

as such it was in the final copy. It was not an editors cut, copy of a movie which at times I will remind you are NOT rated.

What I want is for Rockstar to abide by the rules they promised to abide by, what is so hard about this?

[ender]

31. you're being obtuse.

you'r ebeing obtuse. you claim to be "in the business", and yet arent showing any technical acumen.

sure, "the code" was there, but the bit that let that function/object be called was removed. this is a 30 second fix.

how are you going to prove that there are no digital boobies in other games? require a source code review?

[SaveElmer]

56. Shouldn't companies be doing this one their own?

I'm not a game programmer, but am a computer programmer, and we do code reviews all the time to make sure there is nothing unexpected. I don't think this should be too much to ask here.

They just need to take responsibility for their screw up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. I am in the paper and pencil side of the business

this is the equivalent of final edit of galleys before they go to final press.. yuo are the one being obtuse and defending a company that produces something you like. This is why companies, large and small, do what they do...nobody is willing to hold them accountable.

[Occulus]

130. Maybe they just were told, "remove that" and a programmer

flipped the flag that locked it out, without thinking that people would mod the game on the consoles.

Come on. PC modding in other ways for GTA:SA is almost a given at this point.

So, they flip the flag, thinking to themselves "ok, it's removed, and PC users can just flip it back later on" (sort of the same thing with The Sims and the nudity patch in that respect), without thinking of the consoles and the fact that people can modify those fairly easily these days.

Then they give their happy approval to the build they're sending to the ESRB, and off it goes. As far as all concerned parties go, the nudity scene is gone.

One of the things that concerns me here is the fact that this could severely fall apart, and force the eSRB to require that games be incapable of easily adding user content to. Granted, this was added in the company, but it seems to me that it could occur to some that games with editors, such as Half-Life 2 and Doom3, could exceed the ratings label by the mods and character models and animations that can be added at a later date by the user and then downloaded off the internet free of charge.

The logic is becoming so twisted I can see someone coming to that conclusion...

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. Somebody who understands what is at stake

bravo

[dissent1977]

131. Paper and pencil gaming is far different than computer gaming

It would be much simpler to find something like this hidden in a book than it would be in the thousands of lines of coding that makes up GTA. I don't know if you have played GTA, but the game is enormous. It would take monthes to review all the code, and people would still not be able to access this without a mod. Mods are almost always unrated, if you add them to your game you can expect to see some things you would not see in a game otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. People who have been posting on the three threads who are

computer programmers disagree with you, and no it is not thousands of lines, it is millions of lines of code... it can be done... and most importantly it can be kept out of play testing builds of the game... they knew that would push them to the AO rating.

[Occulus]

206. not only that, but

animations, textures, and audio files won't come out in such a sweep in the code. The ESRB would, in effect, have to play back each individual animation clip and audio file, and review each and every texture used in the game, PLUS look at the code, in order to properly reference filenames to actual files in the media portion of the distribution.

People need to understand, when examining the media itself, when NOT playing the game, the files used in the game are not always named what you think they are. There's very likely no "gal_nude_titties.tga" anywhere in the directory tree. It's very likely named 01234.tga, or even stored in a compressed format with other textures.

It gets even better with animations, because then you need software costing a LOT of money to view the animations, and they must be viewed before the build is created! You won't find individual animation files in any game, which are also used by the game engine, that are viewable in any way without the game engine. Thus, the ESRB has no way whatever to actually review animation files prior to playing the game unless they actually go into the studio and watch (read, monitor the development process- NOT something any game studio will be willing at all to allow.

The ESRB must play the game in its finished form, and it simply doesn't have the capability to do what parents want them to do because the capability does not exist, and it does not exist because of the nature of the medium itself.

[dissent1977]

128. How do you know they lied?

It is very possible the management at Rockstar, and the ones who were responsible for bringing the game before the ESRB truly had no clue this code was in there. It could have easily been the work of a lone programmer or small group of programmers who put it in as a joke. There is so much code in GTA no one would take the time to go through and make sure there was nothing objectionable hidden in there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. They admited it,

look it up, I have oposted the news story on this thread repeteadly

[gatorboy]

18. Doh! I spoke too soon.

Just found the PS2 code :)

[ender]

15. oh, christ...

they probably removed a function call to make this fix.

i gotta tell ya, if the bits are already there, no one is going to go through and clean up every single trace of them. nope, they'll just remove the call to the code, and move on.

a 30 second fix vs. a couple weeks.

its "as good as gone"... especially on a console that is hard to mod...

[TecnoCrat]

54. Exactly.

The function call to the content was removed. The content was left in, I would assume, because removing ANY code that is put in invokes another round of QA and code analysis, and could present a whole new round of bugs. Best to leave it in, and just write around it.

This content was only found after the PC version was released, and people began to hack deeply into the code of the game.

I also agree with the comments about the Disney movie "The Rescuers". There was originally a photograph of a nude woman in a window in one sequence. Why did the government not come down on this, and the initial home video sales that included it?

Why do people want the video game industry to have such heavy handed regulation, but the movie industry has virtually NONE? This game should not have been sold to anyone under 17, the rating was M. So all this crying about protecting the children is worthless. All this does is prevent copies from being sold, due to a lack of stores carrying AO games.

Brings another question up though. GTA:SA got a M. Add a breast, and it's AO all of a sudden? Is America really that scared of a breast?

[greyl]

47. Sex is bad, violence is good...

ummm... eom.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. No, not eexactly

lying to the ESRB so they can get a lower rating is bad... it has nothing to do with violence or sex

[dissent1977]

132. Again PROVE they are lying

I have not seen one shred of evidence to show that anymore than a single Rockstar employee knew about this. There is so much code in a game, that it would be very easy to slip something like this in without raising an eyebrow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. here you go

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd ...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[dissent1977]

208. You keep posting that, but there is no evidence of a lie in there

Hackers did make the mod, even if the content was in the disc to begin with the fact was it was inaccessable without a hack. If you hack a disc then the ESRB rating means nothing anymore. There are mods for all kinds of games, and I can assure you many of them are far more raunchy than "hot coffee".

[DS1]

52. It's okay to blow peoples' heads off one by one with a sniper rifle

then toss a grenade at the cop cars that arrive on scene, get away in a tank while crushing all sorts of other vehicles and people, shoot the police helicopter out of the sky, all the while driving on the wrong side of the road at a high rate of speed.

Giving a woman an orgasm is what tips you over the edge?

:eyes:

[SaveElmer]

53. Red Herring argument...

It's not about content it's about disclosure. What parents do with the information is their business not ours...but they should at least be given information on what they are buying

[youspeakmylanguage]

58. It's their business, not "ours"?

Do you work in the gaming industry as well? If so, do your products compete with Rockstar's games?

I wish there was more disclosure on this thread.

I do not work for Rockstar. I do not work in the gaming industry.

I am simply a fan of their games and I feel the pummeling they are now receiving is undeserved.

[SaveElmer]

61. Nope...

I work for a non-profit in DC....

By ours I meant everyone who is commenting on what content parents should screen their kids from. It's nobodies business but the parents. If they view sex as worse than violence, that is their business. All I am saying is that all information needs to be disclosed so parents can make up their own minds...that's all.

[DS1]

59. Right, but when the "Kids" get on the "internet" to download and install

a modification while unsupervised I find it implausible to blame the game manufacturer regardless of what the content they never intended to be seen is.

Unsupervised internet access is the issue. Watch what your kids are downloading like the good parent you're suggesting you are and this goes away.

[SaveElmer]

66. Ok...

So I am supposed tomonitor for something I do not know exists...

I'll give it a try!

[DS1]

69. You know of every adult website that exists? They double every month

you know.

[SaveElmer]

74. Yes, but there are no good adult websites...

FOr my kids (for myself..another matter ;-) )

There are video games that I allow my kids to play, and I really don't want to spend endless hours looking for content that may or may not exist.

Companies need to take steps to fix this.

[Tux]

82. Problem

Companies need to take steps to fix this.

Who do parents insist that everyone else babysit their kids while the parents aren't required to do anything? I hear this from Harry Potter haters to video game haters on both sides.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Was this in distribution disks?

yes... should it have been included? NO

Look this is not just about paretns doing their job... they should.... but companies also have a role to play...

Now you are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to Harry Potter and this... Rowling is not hiding content in books or movies, and if the parents don't want the kids to read or watch, FINE... but here they tried to circumvent the ratings baord to get the M rating which allows them into welly mart and target...I am shccked you cannot see the problem

[TecnoCrat]

63. OK

If your child is smart enough to go on the internet to find a not-too-easy to install software mod for his console game, has a modded console, and the proper equipment and knowhow to install the Hot Coffee mod, why wouldn't they just get on the net and search for porn that way?

And since they would, they would be smart enough to search for, implement, and circumvent any blocking or filters you have in place... why still have a computer in your house? Your child is too smart for his own good!

I think the amount of latent code in software out there would shock and amaze you.

[DS1]

68. Exactly

Let's see, your kid can either google hot-coffee mod and watched highly blocky characters get it on in a computer environment after all sorts of fiddly little steps, or google hot teens fucking and watch as many free sample vidoes as he wants.

[SaveElmer]

70. Once it became public...

It apparently became very easy to find...

I of course do not speak from direct experience as there is no way I would let my kid anywhere near this particular game...I would hope it is not on games I do let my kid play!

All I am asking for is a little corporate responsibility...these companies are responsible for what is on their products...if they didn;t know about it...they should have...and should take responsibility for it

[distantearlywarning]

71. Hear, hear!

:applause:

That's exactly what I think is so stupid about this whole argument. It's not like this mod was created for "Barney Goes To the Circus" (or whatever lame-o kiddie game is hot right now). This is Grand Theft Auto we're talking about here. If your teenager can't stand to see a little adult content, what the hell are they doing playing this game in the first place?

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Nope the fact taht they lied about the mod,

and did not disclose it to keep an M rating instead of an adult only rating.

Waht part of lying here are you missing

[greyl]

120. How could they lie about the MOD? It didn't exist. nt

[dissent1977]

134. I understand that you have to prove they are lying

I honestly don't think the Rockstar management went through every line of code to make sure this did not show up in there. What I do know however is that they put out a product which was exactly the same as the one the ESRB saw, and you can not get anything more explicit than that unless you add an additional patch.

[DS1]

205. The rating is based on available content

as sold on the store - shrinkwrapped and all that.

Someone found the mod and put it on the internet, once you start tinkering with games, the ratings no longer apply. If I went through a Disney movie frame by frame and drew nipples onto Snow White Disney wouldn't be responsible. The point is the game once modded isn't the game that was sold off the shelf.

[DS1]

76. On a different note: Mods have had some HUGELY successful

movements in the past, but NONE of these were brought up by parents because they were typically computer based. The XBOX, Playstation are also computers, but the second someone sees some tits and ass after going out of their way the parents call bullshit?

Well bullshit on those parents for repressing sexuality and promoting violence, because that's the distinction YOU are choosing to make, and you're shitty parents for making it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. No the distinctiion I am makign is the mod is

part of the program and should have been revealed to the people giving the rating... regardless of the content

I guess ethics 101 is not really something we want to apply to those we consider the "good guys."

[charlie]

100. The trouble is

is that you say in your original post that if the content was accidentally included, they still lied to the board. How could they have lied if they thought the sex bits were gone? Not saying that they didn't know, it may well turn out that they did. But by your measure, Rockstar is guilty whether they really are or not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Actually by their own admision they lied

here you go

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

*************

Oh and for the record, as a game producer this may make my life hell... and teh only way to avoid the feds getting involved the industry will need to act FAST.

Does congress have better things to do? Yes, should they do them? Absolutely... but for social conservatives on both parties this is a gift in a silver platter

[charlie]

105. No, that's after the fact

I agree that it's weasel-worded and obvious that they're loathe to own up to having the content in the game, whether intentionally included or not.

But, your argument has been that Rockstar has jeopardized the industry's ability to self-regulate without gov't interference by not disclosing the existence of the racy content when they submitted the game to the ESRB for review. It might turn out that they did lie at that time. But it hasn't been demonstrated that that is true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. You are right, and the reaction should tell you I am onto someting

they were weasels and they have caused a problem. We usually like the weasels who lie to pay a price, why shoould this be different? Oh just because they produce a game you like?

[charlie]

109. Save your standard-issue snark for someone who likes the game

I don't. Because I disagree, however politely, I have dishonest motives?

I'm not the one making unsupportable claims, like all easter eggs are included intentionally, and tracking a mondo code project is like doing galley proofing. And Rockstar lied to the review board, case closed. I'll say it again, they may well have, this may be a scandal of their own cynical making, but it's not certain that that's true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. read this

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/hidd...

As late as last week, Take-Two had insisted that the sex scenes were "the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game." Hackers, the company said, created the scenes by "disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's code."

The scenes prompted an outcry from game critics, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who last week called for a federal investigation into "Hot Coffee."

The Entertainment Software Ratings Board began a review to determine whether the scenes were part of the game's original code and warranted a re-rating of "San Andreas," versions of which play on Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2, Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox and personal computers.

"After a thorough investigation, we have concluded that sexually explicit material exists in a fully rendered, unmodified form on the final discs of all three platform versions of the game," said Patricia Vance, president of the ratings board. "Clearly the rating was incorrect, and it needed to be corrected."

[charlie]

112. Right

And the ESRB President quoted above understands what you refuse to acknowledge:

"Game developers have been known to deactivate parts of their code without removing them from the finished products. Oftentimes changes are made toward the end of development, and they program workarounds."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/14/hillary_clinton_gta/

In other words, there may not have been intentional deception at the time the game was submitted for review. The weasel-speak since then could be typical CYA stonewalling from corporate suits who were as surprised as anyone that the game included sexual content.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. I am not refusing to aknweledge anything

but it does look to many that this could be a problem, includign the company now.

But hey, corporations can do no wrong and we never hold anybody accountable... this is what is wrong right now... a person, we will hang them, but corporations, poor corporations, they never do any wrong.

[charlie]

114. You've got to be kidding

Is that soliloquy for my benefit? If so, you're preaching to the already converted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. sorry but seems the prevailing attitude with some is

they cannot do no wrong, they are a corporation...

Benito Musolini would be proud.

Any how I see this as somethign that may affect me personally, since I do work in the entertainment industry, but I also see it as a microcosm of the current fascit environment... Enron and Rockstar are just in a continuum...

[charlie]

117. Frankly

I think GTA-SA should've carried an AO rating from the git, could've saved us the trouble of this brouhaha.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. It was a bidenss decisiion

the M allows them into wally mart, and Target, the AO does not...

[dissent1977]

142. And it WAS the work of hackers

Even if this code was in there originally, it still took a hack to access it. The code that they presented to the ESRB was M rated, if that code is modified then the rating no longer applies. The fact is you can not see the sex scene without modifying the code, and therefore Rockstar's original statement was correct and they should be able to keep the M rating. They did not lie to anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. They ahve admited othersise, the company has

look the post up, I am tired of repteatidly posting the news story with the company statement

[dissent1977]

207. And I was referring to the company statement

But it was still the work of hackers. You need to hack the code to get the content, and as soon as you do that the ESRB rating means nothing anymore. The ESRB rating rates the content of the code submitted, not a modified version of that code.

[Endangered Specie]

77. So a particularly poor rendition of sex and a BJ...

is enough to get it an Adults rating, but the killing hookers, cops, anyone on the street, jacking, drugs, hookers etc isn't?

Seriously, if people think their <18 teenage boys havent seen pornos yet they are sorely naive.

[charlie]

79. That's life in the good ol' USA

A BJ brought us an endless summer teetering on the brink of a Constitutional crisis... then we installed a blood-spattered "action hero" as governor of our largest state and nobody blinked. There just isn't a word to describe how absurd we can sometimes be.

[Hippo_Tron]

137. Ken Starr and Newt Gingrich are such great Americans

They did their very best to protect us from the horrors of the Clenis.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. I fear the rating of M was closer to AO, and that is what pushed it

over the ege, but the point here is... they lied to an industry body... I don't care if they lied over sex, violence or the easter bunny... they lied.

[Taverner]

78. There should be NO ratings board

And they should not police themselves.

Personally, all of this creates a chilling atmosphere, and limits our freedom of speech.

Fuck congress, fuck the ratings, fuck censorship.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. You have never seen censorchip or you would not be making this

silly argument

As is you are defending a company that lied and is now making excuses... why don't you hold them tot eh same standards you hold bush? Oh you don't becuase they are a bidness producing something you like?

[LibertarianVoice]

103. Rockstar didn't lie.

It was leftover content from an earlier build of the game.
While the information itself was on the disk, there was no physical way to access it using the distributed version of the game.
It was only when the computer version came out that software modification was possible. At which point someone started to dig around in the game files and uncovered this leftover tidbit.

Should Rockstar have removed this before distributing the disk, in hindsight? Yes.
Did they purposely hide this with the intent that someone would uncover it? No.
Was it something that had to be disclosed to the ratings board? Realistically no, because the intention was never for anyone to actually access this leftover content.

Conclusion: Rockstar is getting unfairly hammered and the issue is being blown out of proportion by moralist blowhards who are on the usual crusade against the entertainment industry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. I WORK in the entertainment industry

trust me I have an insight into how this will affect it.

This is worst than usual story of kids who play games and commit murder... but whatever trips your trigger

Oh and this has absolutely nothing to do with morality.. they did something they should not have done... and unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your point of view, this is not going to involve a court of law. But the did lie... they left the content, and it was there...

Was the content lame? yes.. but they are getting punished for general idiocy... mostly.

and no, this is not censorship, nobody is telling them you cannot produce this. We are saying, go ahead and be honest though... what is so hard about this?

[greyl]

121. Appeal to authority is no argument. Limbaugh works in entertainment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. So tell me how will this not affect the

gaming industry?

start first with the Computer side

then follow that with the Paper and Pencil

Finally end up with the hollywood studios who will be the least affected.

[greyl]

209. It most probably will affect the gaming industry.

I'm sure it already has.
More top > down oversight during production; more money and time will be spent making sure any vestigial code is removed from distributed disks.

And if the new AO rated San Andreas sells well, there will be more AO but not X releases.

I think some of the political and social responses to this situation have been rash and short-sighted over-reactions, however, that beg attention to our culture's bedrock hypocritical valuation of violence vs sex.

When this is called "Explicit Sex" first of all. C'mon. Animated dry-humping? Maybe a repubs definition of explicit sex, but... Do you think any of the people raging against Take-Two have seen for themselves the content that was hacked into?
etc

And all this to supposedly protect the virgin minds of persons in an age group comprised of one age, 17?!
Only to be drafted next year, or sign up on their own, possibly to escape from/help pay for children they had too young.

Iow, I can't help looking at this issue holistically, while you see it from within the industry.

Final positive note for feminists: When sex scenes are finally achieved (after much diligence) the goal is to make the female lover happy with your rhythm.

edit: clarity

[upi402]

125. next thing, they will be masterbating

even more.

[Hippo_Tron]

140. And that's a sin, just ask Rick Santorum

[Champ]

126. Geez all this talk over a video game?

I've played Grand Theft Auto games since I was 15 and I grew up just fine. It's just a freakin' game. :crazy:

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Ok so you have no problem with the people putting this out

lying...

By extension when enron lied there was no problem

And when we all get cancer from pollutants, well there is no problem either

Yes the game is a game... that is not the issue... but I guess ethics 101 is what is lacking these days... this is why we are in the picle we are as a country, this thing called leadership by example, atarts at the top.... bush has been a fine example

[Champ]

135. It depends on the lie

Of course I have a problem with Enron and Bush lies. I don't much about the background behind all this but from what I understand there is some type of modification that can be added onto the game which is already rated for 17+ and now rated "Adult"

Now whatever they possibly lied about hasn't killed anyone, gave anyone cancer, or harmed anyone in any way. I remember a line that went similar to this a few years back 'Clinton lied, no one died' 'Bush lied, thousands died' again it has been years so I could be way off, but my point is it's just a video game with a modification that everyone has created alot of fuss over. I could think of countless violent movies and hardcore sex videos on the internet that can easily be accessed by minors but a video game with cartoon graphics has created alot of stir.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. It is a matter of degree

but this is just giving the social conservatives on both sides of the aisle waht they need to go at you.. and regulate your games... this is what bothers me about this... it is the conequences of this, the board was created as a self regulating body. If this is not taken care off, mark my words their fear of censorship (basically asking for a company to follow the rules) will beocme the real deal

[JohnKleeb]

201. same

Actually I played the 2D ones too when I was like 11. Anyhow my biggest problem with this is that they(the congress) arent focusing on more important issues at hand.

[Democat]

146. Democrats should not support censorship

If our party loses the high ground on free speech, we lose the young vote and that means death to the party.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Ok lets put this in context,

they are not asking for censorhip, but for the rating system to wrork... and by the way, if the youth votes for repukes because they hate their games and music having a label, they deserve the draft, endless war and real censorpship coming down the pike

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Gee more adults coming to the party

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Rock_bollocks]

203. Rockstar isn't to blame.

The elitism I’m reading on this thread is almost as disturbing as the problem at hand. Rockstar had a portion of a game DISABLED for whatever reason. Not removed but DISABLED in the source code.
All versions of the game include this source code.

A Hacker reviewed the code and discovered the disabled Hot Coffee Mini Game. The Hacker produced an installer/hack/MOD that altered the source code that is on the game disk to re-enable the Mini-game.

This is possible on all systems if you have the suitable Mods installed.

The important fact to remember is whether Rockstar’s management knew the mini game was included in the source code or not, it was disabled and a modification to the code has to take place the enable it. It is against the software EULA to alter the code so by installing the Hack/MOD you are going against the EULA. After the Hack/Mod it is no longer the same software you purchased and it has not been altered by an authorized update.

This is not an Easter egg.

Please do not post the Link to Yahoo news again. Read it, understood it, and discarded it as not being applicable.

Remember Fight Club, R rated movie. Had pictures of erect penises inserted into the frames of the film just like in the scene in the projectionist booth. I can’t remember that movie receiving NC-17 and any kind of hullabaloo about it.

Most cars are controlled by computers that restrict air intake and fuel mixes for environmental reasons etc. It is also possible to modify the chips on these cars to gain horse power. Say I crash my car after this after market modification; do I get to blame the manufacturer because I enabled what they disabled at the factory?

Rockstar should have removed the code, but I’m sure someone thought it was just as well disabling it. They did what they needed to do so it was not visible to game purchaser. Are you saying that they knew the game was going to be hacked and the mini game was going to become visible again? Whatever you want to say they are not responsible for the Hack that enables the Hot Coffee mini game. So why should the game be rated again?

Feel free to ignore the facts and me due to my lack of elitism. As you can tell I don’t post much (or at all) and pretty much just lurk but video games are quite important to me. I was one of the lucky ones that got to see them grow from the very beginning until now and have seen them get the blame for many things. So I wanted to get the facts out because it seems that many of you are ignoring them.

To quote a recent movie character “Flame on”.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

204. Movies have had ratings for years to signify content

I really don't see what the fuss is about if all that is being asked for is a rating consistent with content. I think gamers are making much ado about nothing. We have to sell motor oil in a can marked motor oil, and if we advertise DECAF on the coffee can then it damn well better be decaf.

[greyl]

210. San Andreas is marked "Mature 17+" - what that means...

Blood and Gore
Intense Violence
Strong Language
Strong Sexual Content
Use of Drugs"


Seems accurate to me.
It wasn't deceptively marketed to be some Echo the Dolphin.

You mean to tell me there are parents of 17 yr olds out there who would allow M17 but draw the line at animated dry humping respectful of the woman's desires?

The much ado about zip isn't being perpetrated by gamers.

But maybe this issue is shining the light on an only somewhat effective ESRB and the taking up by Hillary of Tipper's "let's appeal to the Victorians and Puritans to get their money while fucking with the artists" legacy.

[Moderator]

211. Locking

This one has gone on long enough.

DU Moderator