Why Liberals Lose

[Mortos]

Last night on a right wing website, another thread devolved into personal attacks of which I was both victim and aggressor. Thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that the reason liberals lose is that we are unable to band together like right wingers. I was attacked by the right wing talk show host, again, and again his compatriots rushed to his defense, which I expected, while the liberals on this board (my philosophical brothers in arms), rushed, not to my defense, but to attack me for defending myself.

This is typical of our political voices on a grander scale. While right wingers speak with one voice, instigate devastating (though untruthful) personal attacks, use the echo chamber of the media to repeat hints, rumor and innuendo until it is accepted in the general population as truth, never apologize, never surrender and never admit defeat; liberals can't wait to turn on their own and criticize, condemn, withdraw support, apologize and beg for forgiveness. No wonder we are looked upon as weak.

The truth is right wing talk show hosts and those like them are doing irreparable damage to our country by siding with an ever secretive and domineering government. They truly wish for one party rule and follow a scorched earth policy to achieve it. They gleefully destroy opponents utilizing any means necessary and liberals help them achieve their goal by turning on each other and infighting while they take more control and power.

Those who dare stand up to the bullies of the right are beaten down by the sycophants who support them but also the people within their the same idealogical arena who can't wait to criticize one of their own with the idea that placating evil will somehow defeat it. We have become the battered wives of politics; apologizing for getting smacked by the abusers, because we shouldn't have angered them, while our family members secretly wonder what we did to deserve it or rush to defend the abuser.

"We are better than that", is the rallying cry of the placators. "We need to take the high ground", they shout while the right wingers dig holes under them and laugh as they fall. If we continue to take the high ground we will eventually fall off a cliff. We must challenge the wrongheaded ideas of the right and we must use harsh language and tactics to do it.

We have seen it happen time and time again on the national and local scene. We can't wait to tear down our candidates over any flaw, actual or perceived, and then moan and whine about losing. We are the greatest contributors to our loss of political standing. We allow the right to define, debase and, ultimately, destroy us and we do so without so much as a peep in protest.

The right wing of this country do not want to compromise, they do not want to work together; they want to destroy liberal philosophies and install their own bastardized brand of theocratical christian corporatism. The danger we face from corporations and the rich monopolizing and defining our system of government is greater than any threat from middle eastern terrorists.

In my opinion, there is not much difference between hard core right wing fundamentalists and hard core right wing muslims. They both want to install their version of religion based government wherein dissension is not tolerated and one religious view dominates and controls the masses.

Liberals should be ashamed of themselves for failing to fight the right wing menace with all the tenacity and anger it deserves. If you can't or won't fight, then don't turn on those who do. At least be an equal opportunity pacifist and refuse to fight those who fight your battles for you.

Right wingers don't win because they are have better ideas (they don't unless you are rich or a corporation) or even because more people support them (the majority of Americans support liberal ideas like higher minimum wage, reproductive rights, social security, conservation, etc), they win because liberals can't stop beating themselves up long enough to concentrate on the real enemy.

[masshole]

1. Well said

:applause:

[Mortos]

2. Thank you

I am so frustrated with "my people" right now.

[Crankie Avalon]

3. Yep...

...we act like we're "too good" to win. We're "above" winning. Always more concerned about "purity" than about doing the inescapeable dirty work.

[lvx35]

41. Liberals Lose because of threads like this one, sometimes

Look at this post, all the criticism. The point may be valid, but the post itself is no part of the solution, its another part of the problem. We can win. Sometimes the republicans win. But the key here is to keep our eye on the ball, not sideline ourselves over analyzing our failures till they seem like failure is all we do.

I'm not blasting the post, I'm 100% behind all of you, but I think really its about more work and less analysis at this point.

[zalinda]

4. Liberals seem to take the all or nothing attitude

you must think exactly like me or you're wrong. That's why I was so pissed at the Naderites. If there was ever a time to band together, that was it, but they couldn't, not even when it was so close. This is also what distresses me about DU, it's all the fighting. Not bickering, but fighting, people ready to slap you upside your head if you don't believe how they do. I guess they think it is good fun. I don't.

I have not always agreed with everything a candidate said, but I won't attack him/her. I could never understand why any dem would. This is OUR guy, the time to pick at him is AFTER he is elected, when he could actually DO some thing. If he never gets elected because our party is so fractured, it's a moot point on whether he agrees with CAFTA, or anything else you deem important. (Lieberman is another story, he's proved his worth.)

Even talking about the 2008 election is stupid and pointless, when there is so much work to be done before the 2006 election, that is little more than a year away.

zalinda

[Stevepol]

5. Liberals lose because of voting machines period. n/t

[Mr_Spock]

20. All 59,000,000 Republican votes are people who would have voted Dem?

I think it would be nice to have a bigger majority next time - thus making voting issues less significant.

[sui generis]

6. you are absolutely correct

sometimes we are total ninnies

I have watched countless threads get hijacked right here on DU by grammar police and PC police and attitude police splitting the finest of hairs thirty different ways and the point and the will to continue making the point gets lost.

We are every bit as bad about posturing like passive aggressive twits as the other side is, with the only notable difference being that we tend to shoot each other instead of lining up and firing on cue at the enemy.

However, in our defense, we do that BECAUSE we value individual opinion, including our own, and we largely think for ourselves instead of borrowing someone else's talking points. We do that because we are not merely "cogs" in the wheel responding to a central Führer to fire on command, and not anything at all like the kind of authoritirian dunderheads we rail against.

To bemoan the fact that we don't fight like republicans is to bemoan the fact that we aren't republican. We don't need to learn to fight like them - we need to learn to do what we do more effectively. We need to learn to distinguish what is relevant to the fight, i.e., grammar police are ANNOYING AS FUCKING HELL when there is a point to be made and discussed and in my opinion should be treated equally as rudely as they behave in hijacking a thread without contributing anything to the discussion themselves.

We need to get away from the other mindset that happens that berate us for being individual in our thinking, and that berate us for daring to depart from "speaking points" or having nuance of our own - they too hijack the conversation. There are points to be made in the limited time we have. To divert with posturing and schoolmarmism and oblique accusations of freeperhood mean that at the end of the day the only people who dare speak on any topic are the schoolmarms and grammar police, and they don't often a lot to say if it doesn't involve grammar or proper use of colorless, toneless speech.

Be yourself - that's what WE do.

[Finder]

9. So how do we fix it?

I agree with everything you and the OP are saying but in the past few months it is getting worse not better. With elections coming up in 06 and 08 the tensions will only rise not subside--I can't imagine any candidate feeling comfortable being aligned here with all the controversy.

(by we I mean DU)

[sui generis]

14. The controversy is manufactured

We're consistently described as nothing more than an "activist" site in an "ongoing flame war" with Free Republic, as if we're just yin to their yang.

The fact is that as long as we have "The Lounge" and a range of opinion and interaction that isn't related to politics, we have to be prepared not to be taken more seriously.

On the other hand, if we get rid of the fluffy stuff on DU, then we lose the support of the DU community, and the good that we can do as a community among people like ourselves - so the DU Elders are wise in the sense that they are supporting their "base", and not a potential candidate worried about having their image tarnished by association with DU.

That having been said, I suspect that DU is "scraped" for opinions, insight, and a pulse on the "activist" community by potential candidates looking to address issues that have been tempered in the forge here. I have seen remarkable similarities to phrasing that originated here months before a candidate used it in a speech or a letter addressing the same topics. I know for a fact that the staffs of certain candidates discuss the "perceptions" on DU and their impact, as well as take some of the insight here seriously.

We need tensions - it's what tempers the steel, provided it doesn't destroy it. We need to have our ideas challenged, adapted, hardened, because we sure don't want to wander onto a talk show or into a real town hall meeting and be caught unprepared. Think of some of the animosity here as necessary for firming up your thoughts, if you can get past some of the transient frustrations and dimwitted disruptors, and also trust in your alert button if things get too far out of hand.

Who knows, you may make a difference here yourself.

[Finder]

15. Maybe that is why Hilary went after the gaming industry...

since sex, misogynism, etc. have been such hot topics of late.

Seriously, the point you make is exactly what I am concerned about. If we degenerate into censor wars--who can get the most posts deleted--then it becomes a train wreck and our political credibility is lost.

[ihaveaquestion]

7. Democrats/liberals today have forgotten...

how dirty the politics game really is. Our politicians don't play dirty anymore (not that I want them to) and therefore don't seem to know how to respond to the dirty tricks of the right - who have no problem using dirty tricks, lies, innuendo and hard-core rumor mongering - whatever it takes - to win. Democrats used to be tough (think LBJ), focused and goal-oriented. They stuck together and they used to win elections. Now we're seen as a bunch of squabbling wimps and who wants to vote for that?

Let's get it together guys and start tearing the other guys apart - not our own (at least not in public).

[barb162]

25. a Rove type is needed for the left

The GOP has become far dirtier in the last ten or so years and the Democrats have to use the same tactics. When they fling crap against Democrats, the Dems should throw it right back and more.

[ihaveaquestion]

28. LBJ was this kind of Dem - and he was VERY powerful !!!

But, I'm not sure I agree that Rovian dirty tricks are the answer. His way is to use lies and innuendo and use under-the-table payments to unaccountable others who spread the smears.

A Democratic "Pack of Hounds" is what's needed, who can use the repukes own failings against them (these usually aren't hard to find) and defend against their attacks on Dem candidates.

[barb162]

29. Defense is what the Dems played the last 2 elections

and a monkey won as a result. GOP, Swifties, etc., made charges and the Dems sat around on talk shows defending themselves against scurrilous charges as Kerry's numbers kept dropping. That doesn't work. We need offense. When the Swifties came on, the Dems should have laughed in their faces, told them they were fools and liars (loudly and indignantly) and attacked: for each question or charge against Kerry, it should have been answered with the Bush "military" and drunken driving record or what was left of them. If they smear, then the Dems should have smeared bigger. The Dems have to learn how to play attack, take- no- prisoners politics.

[ihaveaquestion]

31. I agree

That's why I said to use the repubs failings against them. Hammer them - over and over again!

:nuke:

[barb162]

37. Yeah and we never really used their failings

If Kerry's team (Mary Cahill etal) had played it right, used attack politics, Kerry would have been prez and he would have won big. It wouldn't even had been close. I fear we will lose again and again because the Dem leaders wont change their style. Too much inertia? But then again maybe Howard Dean will change that.

[I Have A Dream]

36. Also, we need more "think tanks" similar to what the right has.

Do we have anything like this now? I think that the Wellstone Action League (or whatever it's called) has real value, but I don't know that it's the same thing as their think tanks.

[Lecky]

44. Fuck no we don't

We just need strong leaders who don't follow the Republican's lead and offer Americans a clear message, as well as a more coordinated PR campaign.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out the bad in our opponents but Rove takes it to a whole different level that I hope NO Democrat would ever stand for.

[barb162]

45. When the Rove team smears, you cannot be put in the

defensive position of responding to their idiotic charges. That is what we mostly did with the last two prez campaigns. And we lost because of it. It simply doesn't work. I am not saying I like that kind of politics because I don't. But that is what it has become. The Dems just won't win unless they start attacking hard. The Dems are playing gentleman politics and it's just not working against smear campaigns.

[Lecky]

46. I agree we should be more aggressive

but Rove does shit like making up bold faced lies and starting false rumors...we can at least be honest in our attacks, the Republicans do so much wrong that it shouldn't be hard.

[Amonester]

48. Yes, throw it right back and more, but avoid the lies,

the forgeries, the conspiracies, the robberies, the blackmails, the treasons, the murders (disguised into suicides or not), etc..

Yes, the same tactics but quite contrary to theirs in their essence.

[BeFree]

8. Nomi- fucking -nated

Liberals have done more damage to our cause than the nazi-rightwing could ever dream of doing. If it wasn't for all the eating of each other that we do, we'd rule this world.

PS... we need two more votes for the Greatest page inclusion. Just do it.

[ProfessorGAC]

10. I'm NOT Better Than That

I'm willing and ready to be a firebrand liberal who will call stupid people, STUPID! Enough with the kid gloves! Kid gloves is what got us into this situation. You know the old adage about neurosis.
The Professor

[Mortos]

11. I am not talking about being in unison on every issue

I am talking about taking the fight to the right wing hatemongers and using tough harsh language to condemn them and backing each other up for taking a stand. Every time one of our ninny representatives actually calls the right wing out using tough language, they then negate their criticism by backing down, usually prompted by those within their own party to do so. You never see an apology from the right even when they say the most vile hateful bigoted things. You also never see those within their own party demand it, quite the contrary, you see them defend each other.

When the right wing charges us with being weak on defense, I thought they meant militarily, but they mean we are weak on defending each other...and they are right.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. I Got It!

And, i'm with you. I will not take it from anyone. I know we're right and they're wrong. I will not let people live in blissful, and willful ignorance. I'll just call them selfish, hatefilled ignorant fools, if they act like selfish, hatefilled ignorant fools.
The Professor

[Mortos]

13. Glad to know you got my back

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hamlette]

17. thank you!

I've been seeing it here lately and it bugs me too. I myself am torn between "fight fire with fire" and "taking the high road" but those are not the only two choices. We can "take the high road" by being civil and STILL support each other. We must.

[dogday]

18. Nice guys finish last

When you are up against a source that believes anything goes, all is fair game and they will steal, cheat, lie to get what they want, playing Mr. Nice Guy is not the way to deal with them. Either we get tuff and stomp their asses or we are destined to lose again....

[ananda]

19. my response

I get the unthinking, patronizing, condescending "the left is full of losers" stuff too.

I usually point out to the attacker what s/he is doing as per above and then reframe the discussion to what the rightwing is doing, sticking with facts and then ending with the fact that I live in the reality based community.

The facts simply point in the direction of a living hell for everyone.

Sue

[radwriter0555]

21. liberals 'lose' because the gop fucks LIE, CHEAT and STEAL. We DON'T.

It's as simple as that. The GOP is chock full of liars, cheaters and thieves. They have no ethics, no integrity, so how do GOOD people like us beat them?

I honestly don't know.

[liberalismresurgent]

23. Moderates are the problem

Moderates just sit at home taling about the right strategy while private companies who fund the GOP are in charge of counting the votes. Screw strategy. this nation would vote any liberal OR moderate over the lying elitist racist GOP, if the votes were counted.
Moderates trust authority, be it right, left, center. If destiny has given us hackable optical scanners in Florida, it must be for our own good, they think.

[barb162]

27. Observe Rove, use the same tactics

He took a monkey and made him a prez twice.

[liberalismresurgent]

22. Liberals don't lose

Liberals don't reach the presidency because the conservatives steal teh elections.
Remember 2000. How can you both tihnk that Gore won and that liberals lose at the same time? and the fact that inauditable machines were used in 2004, plus exit polls were for the first time outrageously different than the official results. The fraud was even bigger in 04. Don't bother coming up with complex analysis on why liberals lose.

[PittLib]

24. I agree ...

To put this in context, I'll bring up the PA senate race yet again. The DSCC has decided that socially conservative Bob Casey, Jr is the best candidate. Many so-called progressives are rushing to support Casey, even though that means abandoning the concerns of their constituents. Instead of fighting for a fair primary (there are now 3 dems running) they are busy calling those of us, who continue to fight for our ideals, purists at best. They seem to think that compromise is the only way to win. I disagree. I believe that you win when you are consistent, resolved and unwilling to "take issues off the table". You have to believe in the candidate you are supporting. We need to show conviction. While most of us see Rick Santorum as a worst case scenario, Casey has not proven himself to be a defender of women, gays or progressive ideals (with the arguable exception of labor). With our ideals under constant attack, particularly by the religious right, now is not the time to compromise.

[YOY]

26. IMHO We often forget the one thing we have to battle the ignorance:

Experience.

I have mopped the floor with many a RW tard by citing the simple fact (usually on international issues). It was a "fun" debate (or as close as a debate as one could get with these knuckle draggers) about US International policy and debt forgiveness as well as our reputation in todays global economy.

My winning line: "I have been there and seen it. What have you done other than bitch about it from your keyboard in suburbia/podunk."

The last idiot I challenged (who insinuated several ideas that were so rude that saying they were "attacking the opponent and not the issue" was an understatement) finally was foced to let out a whiny: "I'm allowed to have my opinion!!!"

My Reply: "Yes...you do have the right to voice your (or whoever you listen to on AM radio's) opinon but you also have the right to STFU and get some experience on the matter instead of voicing Bill O'Reiley's or Rush Limbaugh's idiotic drivel"

Has worked everytime I did indeed have the experience on the matter.

[I Have A Dream]

30. Amen, amen, amen -- mortos!

I absolutely utterly believe everything that you said. The right counts on us to always fight a "fair" fight regardless of what they do. I'm all for fair fights, but both sides have to fight that way.

Someone once said in a post here at DU that his/her parents said that they couldn't start a fight, but they were expected to finish it and win regardless of what they have to do if someone else started it. If they define the fight to be a knock-down, drag-out event, then this is the way that we also must fight. We can do this and still keep our integrity.

I'll use the analogy of the bison and hunters. It's my understanding that bison fight off wolves and other large predators by forming a circle around their young to protect them. Because they're so large, this has worked for them -- adult bison can hold off wolves. However, human hunters use this to easily pick off bison because they're just standing there. We are the bison and the right are the hunters in this analogy. The right pretty much knows how we're going to fight, and we're easily picked off because of it.

(On edit: Nominated!)
Thanks for stating this so well.

[Nevernose]

32. In the words of Will Rogers:

[VOX]

33. Yes. Discipline is the key. The factions of the left are undisciplined.

Broadly speaking, that is.

The right wing has been so damned successful because they have been willing to bide their time, and to take their victories in small measures. They are tenacious and disciplined. The U.S. didn't become right wing overnight.

The factions of the left will chew each other to bits over this or that issue. Not to open a hornet's nest, but Gore and Kerry voters vs. Nader voters is one prime example. Neither group was/is willing to make concessions and band together to defeat the common enemy.

IMO, discipline is the key, and a willingness to make some compromises along the way to victory.

[I Have A Dream]

34. Kick

:kick:

[julialnyc]

35. liberals lose because they don't run as liberals

They act ashamed of their values and feel the necessity to woo the opposite party. Liberals need to give the people the feeling that they are fighting for us and passion would be ignited in people. No more voting for a guy because he's better then the other guy....or voting for the guy who is "just acting like that to get elected, but will be much different when he gets in office".

Liberals need a back bone......... badly. Everyone would win (including the candidate)

[nolabels]

38. People that accept other's words to describe them and how the live

are subservient by definition. This to me this renders any other reasoning moot.

Yea, I am progressive (progressive to or for what?)

[xilet]

39. Why we lose

Keep in mind, I hate to admit it, but a large portion of the country are sheep. One thing repubs do is stick up for their guys no matter what. Regardless of how hypocritcal or illegal one of their guys actions may have been they will support them, and find some way to rationalize it.

Democrats on the other hand will rightly critize their members for inappropriate activity and listen to logical arguments rather then immediatly ignoring any critisim. Well as the last few elections have shown us, the constant unwaivering talking points, over and over again drill into the minds of the masses and will sway elections.

[nolabels]

40. The idea of ...........

"We don't know where we are going and don't know how we will get there"

The reasons for people being sheeples are multitude and blame is most Just when spread to all that could have done something about it.

Europe has long understood that the US and others were not innocent bystanders at the start WWII. They resent and are repulsed by some of corporatist turned fascist during that war.

Trying to figure out how people or other animals or things are trained to react might make for being less critical about the particulars or people and more attuned to the process. Try to find a point twenty steps ahead of them if you want to get the jump.

We are living in a fantasy world in the US, it will end soon enough

[Mortos]

42. kick for the evening crowd

[I Have A Dream]

43. Kick.

:kick:

[Tux]

47. That is what you get

When people think for themselves.