Prove to me that Jane Fonda got US Troops killed and tortured..

[devilgrrl]

Thank you.

[jobycom]

1. Can't. I can prove that the Viet Nam war got US troops killed and tortured

and that Jane Fonda opposed the war, and that the war did no one in the world any good. That would make her a hero in my book. But I can't prove the opposite.

[samsingh]

2. well put Joby.

[LincolnMcGrath]

32. The US Government got troops killed in S E ASIA

The only ones in this argument "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" are those to the left of center (vets included) who gave any credence to this TOTALLY MANUFACTURED MYTH. You are helping bury the truth of the horrors of Nam for the dark side.

P.S. I am a vet of the US Army.

[Cha]

96. I'm just curious, Lincoln, has

Malloy said anything about Jane going on this tour?

For the record again..I'm not against it..if she has the guts to get out there and speak out against the Manufactured Iraqi War then I say .."Do it".

[Sparkman]

83. The quickest way to win a war is for one side to quit. Millions saved by

the peace movement pressuring the US war profiteers through public opinion to cut our losses. The military wanted to nuke Vietnam, carpet bomb and public opinion was the only deterent to an even more horrific slaughter of innocent life. imo

[brainshrub]

3. Jane Fonda tortured every vet who saw her giving comfort to the enemy.

I'm not old enough to remember the Vietnam war, but the footage I've seen was enough to make me so mad I could spit. I agree that our govts involvement in Vietnam was a huge mistake, but that didn't justify what she did.

Jane Fonda's visit to the Vietcong was a stab in the back of every American who had to sacrifice themselves to support government policy.

IMO, Jane Fonda should work behind the scenes to support the peace-movement. She is an attention-whore who will do nothing except make it harder for real patriotic Americans to oppose the Iraqi quagmire.

[BikeWriter]

7. Vietnam vet here saying thank you.

[K-W]

8. It was only a stab in the back if you supported the war.

And if you supported the war you have no moral credibility.

The vietcong didnt start the Vietnam war, the US government did.

[Caution]

14. you forget that most of the soldiers in Vietnam were conscripts

When a draftee is sent to war, basically against their will, and they are our children, well let's just say Fonda's actions were a mistake. One to which she now admits.

[K-W]

16. And that was the Vietcong's fault how exactly? EOM

[Caution]

22. What does that have to do with Fonda's actions as they relate

to our soldiers who weren't there of their own freewill?

[K-W]

25. You are the one who brought it up.

I dont think the draft has anything to do with the issue.

[Caution]

53. If you don't think that drafted soldiers are less liable for the policies

of their government then you are just plain wrong. Fonda's actions in visiting the vietcong were absolutely atrocious when you consider the people who were forced by the US to be involved in that war.

Speaking out against the war and going up against the government in an attempt to change policy are one thing. Providing aid to the enemy (regardless of whether or not the war is right, they were the enemy at that time) is another. And if you don't think that her actions provided aid then you don't understand how powerful a piece of propaganda her visit was to the vietcong.

I have huge problems with the current Iraq policy, but I don't think I should go over and sit with insurgents and tell them what a great cause they are fighting for. Do you think our soldiers should have body armor for protection? If so then according to your logic you are supporting the war effort because that armor will better enable them to kill the innocent iraqis.

Her actions in vietnam were deplorable. Our government's actions in the war were deplorable as well. Just because one's actions are contrary to bad government actions doesn't make one right. If this were the case then it would be OK in our country to simply kill those who we disagree with.

It's a damned shame because prior to her visit to the vietcong she was really doing good work. Since then the right has latched onto that one mistake she made and now regardless of how some may feel about her all of her future actions politically have been colored by this incident.

[K-W]

56. And the vietnamese forced into that war? What about them?

I am not saying anything bad about US troops. I am just refusing to accept that supporting US troops and calling vietnamese troops our enemy is morally legitimate. Niether draftees or VC chose to be in that war. The US government made that choice.

[Caution]

59. Tell that to the conscripted soldier on the ground being shot at.

When someone is shooting at you they are your enemy. No moral ambiguity there. If someone is actively attempting to kill you they are your enemy. Government policy may have forced this issue but that is meaningless to Joe Gonzalez on the ground being shot at. He didn't make that choice and when you say that a soldier's view of this is morally wrong you are most certainly saying something bad about US troops.

[K-W]

65. I thought the war was over.

I understand that when they were on the ground they had to fight the vietcong. I have no issue with that. But we arent talking about that.

[Caution]

77. Huh? We are talking about Jane Fonda's actions in vietnam

and whether or not they were appropriate. You made the assertion that her actions were a stab in the back only to those that supported the war. I made the assertion that her actions were a stab in the back to those conscripted into the war (and to their families and friends). Her actions were deplorable.

Please don't attempt to change the subject here. We are very much talking about the men on the ground in Vietnam and how Fonda's actions affected them, and continues to affect them as has been shown by some of the posts here today (i'm not referring to you here, but rather to the Vietnam veteran who has posted in this thread and who most definitely was affected by her actions).

[K-W]

81. I was responding to your post

You are the one making the argument that because american draftees were forced to fight vietcong it means Jane Fonda had to consider the vietcong her enemies.

Only someone who values American life above other lives would draw that conclusion.

Yes draftees were forced to fight or die, which means they arent fully responsible for thier actions. It doesnt however mean the guys they were fighting were enemies of Americans.

[Caution]

88. BS. I said no such thing. Maybe you should read what I said.

I said Fonda was wrong to visit the Vietcong. Doing so put the lives of innoncent americans in danger and insulted the sacrifice they were being forced to make. I most certainly did not say that Fonda should consider the Vietcong her enemies. Only someone who steadfastly refuses to admit to that would draw the conclusions you have.

My contention has been and continues to be that Fonda was wrong to visit the Vietcong because her visit provided aid to the enemy of innoncent american conscripts. Can I make it any plainer than that? Jane Fonda had every right to do what she did. That doesn't make it the right thing to do. In what way did her actions help the vietnamese people or the united states? In what way did her actions help her cause? It was stupid and she herself will tell you this.

[K-W]

94. "insulting to the sacrifice that they were being forced to make"

I would hope she was insulting that barbaric sacrifice.

But that is exactly right, it was only an insult if you were glorifying the actions of our troops. Anyone with an ethical interpretation of the situation would not take her visit as an insult. The vietcong were not the villians, the US government was. The vietcong were just as much victims of American aggression as drafted Americans were.

Morally her actions were no worse than visiting US troops would have been.

[Caution]

99. We'll have to agree to disagree here

[AngryAmish]

114. She didn't visit the vietcong.

She went to North Vietnam and hung out with the North Vietnamese Army. Vietcong were irrelgulars in South Vietnam.

[Caution]

120. Quibble. Yes there is a distinction but this has no bearing on the point

But thanks for the correction just the same.

[hfojvt]

97. Did they not have the Ali option?

Goto jail. Rock or hard place, there is always a choice.

[Caution]

100. Do you then condemn every US conscript who didn't choose jail?

[BikeWriter]

102. I personally felt like many people did condemn us.

I took it personally, too.

[Caution]

105. I didn't and don't and I thank you for your service

Even if i disagree with the policy that led to it.

[BikeWriter]

113. Same here. Thank you for supporting the troops.

[BikeWriter]

101. Is that what you'd tell your kids to do?

[Connie_Corleone]

15. It was a stab in the back to the soldiers fighting.

Not all of them supported the war. Are you forgetting the ones who were drafted to fight?

[K-W]

17. No, if you oppose the war, you dont see the vietnamese as enemies.

I understand draftees, and that they had no choice but to fight, but that is a far cry from taking the stance that the vietcong were our enemies.

[BikeWriter]

33. They were shooting at me. They were my enemies.

[K-W]

43. Edit: Nevermind.

If thats how you see the world, thats how you see it.

[Smarmie Doofus]

70. No offense, but if your gov't sends you somewhere to....

... in effect.... steal a country from it's inhabitants at gunpoint , are you going to be surprised when the inhabitants shoot back?

[BikeWriter]

78. No more than the troops in Iraq, but I support them!

Screw the politicians, support the troops! jane fonda called our POWs liars and hypocrites. Fuck her!

[RedCloud]

117. What about those who put you there in the first place?

Did you enjoy being a place that at the time was thought to hold a huge oil reserve in the Mekong Delta?

Did you ever think of turning your guns around? What if you knew Ho Chi Minh would have won a free and fair election?

I hear guys returning and quitting these days.

I said this many moons ago and was laughed at by those on the left at the time:

"Watch this. The right wingers will use POW/MIA sympathy to convert our massively popular anti-war movement into pro-war sympathies."

Who was right?

[annerevere]

18. Don't go there, please.

Most of the soldiers there were drafted, for God's sake. And who the heck are you to tell veterans that they have no moral credibility?

I am appalled that you would say such a thing about men and women who went to war and fought for this country, regardless of what you think about the war.

Geez, were you even born then? I was a teenager and got a heavy dose from both sides.

What do you suggest we do, spit on soldiers when they come back? Do our soldiers in Iraq have no moral credibility? Perhaps we should spit on them when they return?

[K-W]

20. I dont know what on earth you are talking about.

This has nothing to do with draftees and spitting on soldiers.

Jane Fonda was right. The vietcong werent our enemies, they, like the draftees were victims of the US government who pitted drafted soldiers against vietnamese people fighting occupation.

[annerevere]

26. Answer the question.

Do our soldiers serving in Iraq have no moral credibility?

And why did our soldiers in Vietnam have no moral credibility?

[K-W]

34. I said war supporters have no moral credibility, not soldiers,

so why should I answer your rediculous questions?

[annerevere]

44. Time to stop this conversation.

When you cannot justify your position, you attack the questioner. Very Rove-like, and very much a waste of time.

[K-W]

49. You are asking me to justify something I NEVER SAID

I never said soldiers have no moral credibility, you are making that up.

I said supporters of the vietnam war have no moral credibility.

[BikeWriter]

27. I supported my fellow troops and our POWs. jane did not.

[annerevere]

46. So did I.

[K-W]

54. Jane supported US troops AND Vietnamese troops

insofar as they were all humans who shouldnt have been caught up in that conflict because it was a war of aggression waged by the US government based on lies.

[geek tragedy]

Bullshit. She accused POW's who were tortured and starved of being liars.

She HATED the US troops. Just an upper class limousine liberal without the maturity of a ten year old or the decency of a rattlesnake.

[K-W]

62. Nothing in your post contradicts what I said.

She opposed the war and wanted the deaths on both sides to end.

Her opinion about POW stories doesnt contradict that, even if she was wrong.

[geek tragedy]

66. Do you think that people who call tortured POW's liars and war criminals

support the troops?

I sure don't.

[K-W]

73. It depends what you mean by supporting the troops.

She supported ending the war to save lives on both sides.

[geek tragedy]

76. People who spread malicious lies about the troops aren't supporting them.

It's Orwellian to suggest that she was supporting the torture victims she called liars, hypocrites, and professional killers.

[BikeWriter]

85. She said our POWs were liars and hypocrites. Fuck her!

[Deja Q]

9. Bingo.

Especially re: attention-whore.

[annerevere]

11. I'm not a vet, but I see your point, totally.

I've admired her for many reasons, but her Vietnam activities were atrocious and did great damage to our soldiers, regardless of whether you supported the war or not.

She will only provide ammunition for the Republicans if she goes on her bus tour. It's stunning that she does not see this or perhaps she does not care. Heaven help us when past-their-prime celebrities stretch for more time on center stage.

[ProfessorGAC]

13. Can You Specify The Damages?

I think not. That is a canard used by anti-Jane folks because nobody ASKS to have the damages enumerated.
The Professor

[annerevere]

29. Talk to any vet who spent real time in Vietnam

when Fonda was on her tour. I think they can tell you something about damages.

[BikeWriter]

36. Thank you.

[ProfessorGAC]

47. Thank Her For What?

I know dozens of vets from that war. I'm just barely young enough to have missed it. They stopped drafting 5 months before my 18th birthday. So, i've got LOTS of contemporaries who were there.

Not one of them believes that her visit, no matter how distasteful they find it, had any effect on their tours of duty. Not one. So, you thank her for tossing out some platitudinous nonsense without any factual suppport.

You were there. What damage did she do? I'm respectfully asking for specifics.
The Professor

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

60. Maybe you should ask the POW's who were tortured to prep them for her

visit where she would deny that they were being mistreated.

[Sparkman]

79. millions of innocent women & children bombed from B-52s, hi altitude.

Napalm covering villages, idescriminately killing impoverished jungle villagers for living in a battle ground of Russia & the US! peace to you geekT

[BikeWriter]

115. Exactly how does that justify jane's lies about POWs?

[Sparkman]

123. The totality of the truth, only gets outed in venues like this. Facet's

about Fonda's anti-war effort may not all be right because many powerful propagandists were at work. But the fault goes to the last one who could have avoided the accident. And invasion by the USMIL, in the 50+ wars since WWII, of millions of innocent women & children, is the MAIN FOCUS for those of us wishing to castrate the hegemeny campaign of the war profiteers. And Fonda was one long standing warrior in our camp. We can learn from her mistakes, BUT we should simultaneously praise her courage and public testimony!!!

[ProfessorGAC]

40. I Have.

Don't lecture me. Answer the question. I don't know one vet who actually thinks she had any direct effect on their tour of duty, even if they disapprove of what she did.

Your leaps of logic are not going to persuade me to believe differently, when i know dozens of vets who tell me the opposite of what you believe.
The Professor

[geek tragedy]

45. She committed legal defamation against POW's who were tortured there.

"Fonda also posed for pictures in which she was shown applauding North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners, was photographed peering into the sights of an NVA anti-aircraft artillery launcher, and made ten propagandistic Tokyo Rose-like radio broadcasts in which she denounced American political and military leaders as "war criminals." She also spoke with eight American POWs at a carefully arranged "press conference," POWs who had been tortured by their North Vietnamese captors to force them to meet with Fonda, deny they had been tortured, and decry the American war effort. Fonda apparently didn't notice (or care) that the POWs were delivering their lines under duress or find it unusual the she was not allowed to visit the prisoner-of-war camp (commonly known as the "Hanoi Hilton") itself. She merely went home and told the world that " assured me they were in good health. When I asked them if they were brainwashed, they all laughed. Without exception, they expressed shame at what they had done." She did, however, charge that North Vietnamese POWs were systematically tortured in American prison-of-war camps.

To add insult to injury, when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."
http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[ProfessorGAC]

50. That Doesn't Answer The Question

Nice try, but no soap. The issue here is whether she did damage to the troops that were there. The answer is that an insult may be inferred, but no damage can be established.

I'm objecting to the narrow view seen here that reminds of conservative "black & white" thought process. It's bugging me.

The Professor

[geek tragedy]

55. She was a willing accomplice to the goons who tortured the POW's.

She was an America-hating version of the nuts with the Club Gitmo t-shirts on.

She aided and enabled that torture by denying it.

[BikeWriter]

68. Thank you, and I for one will despise her when I'm dust ...

blowing in the wind.

[The Magistrate]

119. The Problem With That, Mr. Tragedy

Is that a person has to be aware something is going on to be a willing accomplice to it. Further, to be described as aiding and enabling, a person has to have made some material contribution to the thing. It does not seem to me, and did not seem to me at the time, that Fonda managed either thing.

The doctrinaire leftist view of the war at that time was every bit as much a propaganda construct as the doctrinaire rightist view. Both touched on reality only by accident. Each side claimed only the other engaged in atrocious behavior, and denied resolutely the committal of any atrocity by the side it opposed. There is no doubt in my mind Fonda was as certain there was no torture by the North Vietnamese as a modern "ditto-head" is convinced there is no torture at Guantanamo. In both cases, inconvenient evidence is simply ignored, or minimized through a variety of mental strategies. The fall-back position on the left was that atrocities by the Vietnamese Communists were justified and excuseable because of the atrocities committed by U.S. forces, just as the fall-back position of the right was that atrocities by U.S. and R.V.N. forces were justified and excuseable because of the atrocities committed by the Communists. The willful ignorance and moral blindness of both sides of the debate in those days was palpable.

Fonda's actions made no more difference to what happened in North Vietnam than a teaspoon emptied into it would make to the level of the ocean. The treatment of prisoners there was settled policy of the government long before she arrived, and remained what it was before after her departure. The fact is that both sides engaged routinely in atrocious behavior as a matter of policy, and it is a fact beyond that that atrocity is and always will be the method employed by both sides of any guerrilla conflict. Decision to support one side or the other of such a struggle cannot be made on the basis of the behavior of either side, since both will inevitably be sufficiently reprehensible to shock the humane conscience: it can be made only on the basis of the goals of the sides, and the possibilty those goals can be achieved. A moral position can only be based on the refusal to support atrocity commited by anyone, and unwillingness to see the mutual exercise in horror continue any longer, which will of necessity require that the side who's political leadership one can affect must be convinced to halt its participation.

Fonda was foolish and misguided in what she did in those days: in that, she is legion, for that same foolishness and misguidedness were endemic. She has always rated rather low in my regard for it, as did those in demonstrations against the war I participated in who carried North Vietnamese flags and chanted praise of Ho Chi Minh. It has never seemed to me that it was demonstrations and the opposition of the left in particular that brought about the retirement of the U.S. from that misbegotten conflict, but rather the spreading realization among the people that the thing was a futile quagmire to which they were unwilling to commit their children any longer, and the condition of near-mutiny that became endemic in the conscript ranks of the fighting forces on the ground there. The public, and a sufficient number of the soldiery, made in the end the moral choice that they would no longer participate in the wretched business, and would rather see it ended regardless of consequences to national policy in the question.

[geek tragedy]

127. As certain nefarious villains in the WH may discover regarding the Plame

case, willful blindness is generally not a defense. Refusing to look at reality does not let one off the hook. The Swiftvets and Jane Fonda probably share a lot more than either would care to admit.

I will concede that her efforts made no material difference to the war's outcome--but then again neither did Tokyo Rose's.

[The Magistrate]

131. There Is Something To That, Sir

My point is that the failure was hardly unique, and its elevation to near sacramental status is in itself an exercise in the same failing, for to assign over-arching importance to what is actually most distinguished by its triviality is just as much a falsification.

Disrasre in the matter, it seems to me, ought to be reserved to the leadership of the warring sides, who adopted atrocity as policy, and imposed ghastly suffering on millions for ends that would hardly justify the killing of a mouse. A trial of Gen. Westmoreland would hardly be complete without a trial of Gen. Giap....

[geek tragedy]

136. Indeed. However, Ms. Fonda posed for the cameras, and now

must live with that. Memories may fade, but pictures last a long long time.

Petty outrages often move us the most, for at least those we can grasp.

Insult soldiers? Outrageous. Butcher millions? Incomprehensible.

[ProfessorGAC]

132. How?

I'm not defending the torturers in any way. I just don't get how an actress aided and abetted anything. Seems awfully generalized and highly unprovable to me. You don't like what she did? Fine. I'm not defending her actions. But, this sounds suspiciously freeperlike, to make these broad statements with no evidence to support their veracity.
The Professor

[BikeWriter]

48. Don't speak for me, Professor.

[ProfessorGAC]

51. Show Me Where I Did

Don't attribute things to me i didn't write.
The Professor

[BikeWriter]

61. Don't attribute things to me I didn't write, either!

I said don't speak for me!

[ProfessorGAC]

129. What Are You Talking About?

I asked a question regarding specifics. Instead, you just got mad and told me not to speak for you. How is asking a question, speaking for you or anyone else?

Sheesh!
The Professor

[annerevere]

64. I'm not lecturing.

You might read John McCain's account of his times as a POW in his book, Faith of My Fathers. Coincidentally, I just finished reading it this month.

I think that a man who spent 7 years as a POW might have some credibility. It seems that on the speaker system in camp, the camp commander made quite a show of Ms. Fonda's statements, time and again. You might read McCain's take on it.

She sure was show-time on center stage for those in at least one major POW camp.

I don't see any leaps of logic here. I know I'm not going to persuade you of anything, but at least I can support those on DU and on this thread who see the damage she did.

You know, even when Fonda apologizes for what she did, perhaps she saw the damage that she did?

[ProfessorGAC]

133. You're Changing The Scope

She apologized for being naive and young and stupid. She shouldn't have gone there. There is no question about that.

But, the torture was already happening. I believe it happened. No argument from me.

But, we are still dancing around the issue as to how anything she said or did increased the damage. I know the McCain story. We also know that some POW's cracked under the strain and made statements that indicted the U.S. Did they do damage too? No.

She did something foolish in her youth, but i still don't get how this can be directly correlated to the actions of the camp operators. They were wrong, but they were wrong YEARS before Janey went over there.
The Professor

[ElectroPrincess]

116. Here here ...

Sometimes people do fuck up so bad that AMENDS should be made but the offending party needs to step away from the fray. THAT offending party is Jane Fonda.

For whatever reason younger people (<45 y.o.) cannot fathom, Jane Fonda will always be resented by many Combat Vietnam Vets as well as the vast majority of family members who lost their loved ones in that war.

Gee, consider it from THEIR family and previous life experiences before you "pooh pooh" their sentiments? Yes, they have the right to not forgive her without me trashing their character.

Bottom Line: Albeit unfair, those scars remain. Please just go away Jane?

[Jacobin]

19. Interesting

So, how do YOU propose to end an illegal invasion and occupation that is killing and maiming thousands a week?

I AM old enough to remember exactly what the fuck happened and it took BURNING DOWN draft centers, protesting by the millions, kids getting shot on campus, and massive civil disobedience to FINALLY end it.

Crocheting anti-war themes on potholders does not stop imperialistic, neo-con, war machines. It takes over the top actions to do that....to make people stop, and talk and fucking think.

With attitudes that have no taste for responding to the warmongers in kind, we will NEVER leave Iraq.

[manic expression]

28. A few things:

She visited North Vietnam, the Vietcong were the guerrilla organization in the South who supported Communism and North Vietnam.

She was opposing disgusting US policy, and if people supported that policy, then they were already stabbed in the back by the US Government. Not to mention, it was a justified stab in the back of people who would get behind such a sick cause.

Don't let the RW tell you what's acceptable and what's good for the US. Ultimately, she has nothing to be ashamed of.

[Smarmie Doofus]

31. Footage can be lined up in such a way as to mislead.

I think this is the case here.

Paragraph 2: Actually she visited Hanoi, the capital of North Vietnam, the country with which the executive branch of our gov't was waging a bloody, undeclared war under pretenses that were eventually exposed as false.

The Viet Cong were a separate... albeit related.... entity that was "homegrown" in the southern portion of the part of VN that the USA called "South Vietnam" and that most of the rest of the world called the disputed southern half of Viet Nam. Fonda, far as I remember, did not visit the Viet Cong.

Lot's of US civilians went to Hanoi, during the hostilities, not just Fonda. Many of them talked with NVN gov't officials. Some were anti war; some were not.

Paragraph 2: Some can choose to see it that way. Many of us did not see it as a "stab in the back". It was definitely an effort to hasten a peaceful end to the war... so if that's a stab in the back... it's a stab in the back. But the real stab in the back came from the US gov't officials who misled the troops into danger and death under false pretenses.

Stylistically, she made mistakes. She shouldn't have gotten on top of tha anti-aircraft gun and gotten her picture taken.( Although thousand of VN civilians ... and later Cambodian... civilians were killed in the US air raids.) She was also a bit brash in her tone.

Hindsight is 20/20. I think she deserves an immense amount of credit for putting her career on the line by speaking up and speaking out.

[geek tragedy]

35. Well said. There's patriotic dissent, and then there's disloyal

dissent. Fonda belonged in the latter category, and I don't blame the Vet who spit in her treacherous face.

[Sparkman]

72. Questn: Is a soldier who diobeys an illegal, immoral order a hero or a ...

traitor?! How many times did villages get napalmed, killing men, women & children, because of J.F.!? BUT, the USMIL did kill a few million vietnamese kids. Can you imagine B-52 bombers, at hi altitude, dropping 1000 LB bombs in jungle. What a way to conduct a war on a poor undeveloped country. ANY celeb. opposing that war got tons of crap. ANY of us denouncing it got job discrimination, lost promotions, and more. Many were jailed for protesting. Genocide her in good old USA, from Columbus to Bush puts native people's down under the ruling class...Peace to you.
Do you know of the policy by our police state, when one cop shoots, all cops shoot to kill a perceived criminal? Thats not right, and agreeing to kill for a corporate class of war profiteers need special attention when judging a visit by J.F. to Hanoi. How many innocent women & children's lives were saved by the work of J.F. in bringing attention, more attention, to the injustices of that halocast against the Vietnamese people, by the USMIL arm of the empire. Peace to you.

[Smarmie Doofus]

80. Plenty, probably. Your last point should be everyone's...

bottom line on Ms. F.

[jobycom]

110. Bull. The vets and the Viet Cong were both Victims of blind patriotism

The torture was being done by those who started the war, and the victims were those fighting ON BOTH SIDES.

The war was wrong. It doesn't get made more right by supporting one side over the other, but only by supporting peace over war.

[Kraklen]

128. Those vets must be some assholes.

They were fighting for Jane Fonda's right to free expression, and they're going to have a problem when she uses it? Sounds like hypocrisy.

[Booster]

4. Politicians in Washington (on both sides) got US troops killed

in Viet Nam. Jane Fonda brought attention to it - pretty much end of argument. She was right, they were wrong.

[jackster]

5. never made sense to me...

I've had military men say they KNEW men who were tortured because of Jane Fonda, but they could never explain WHY!

It seems sorta bassackwards to me - if she was speaking out AGAINST the Viet Cong wouldn't it be more likely that they would torture their enemies due to her stance? Why would they torture someone based on behaviour that supported them?

[Contrary1]

42. They weren't tortured because of Fonda...

Jane's visit to Vietnam was used as additional psychological torture for those who were captured. Just like John Kerry's
appearance at the Senate hearings was used. The prisoners would have been tortured, no matter what.

[Teaser]

6. Of course she didn't

But her trip to N. Vietnam was crass, and many Vietnam vets are rightfully pissed at her for it.

To her credit, she apologized for that. About her anti-war record, she has nothing to apologize for.

[K-W]

10. Why are they rightfully pissed?

The vietcong werent the aggressors, we were.

[geek tragedy]

39. She called POW's who had been tortured "liars" when they discussed

their experiences upon returning to the United States.


She's lower than the Swiftvets.

[K-W]

58. OK, but I was commenting on the visit. Not statements about POW's nt

[geek tragedy]

63. She was there as part of a propaganda effort. Part of that effort was

a photo-op with POW's who had been starved and tortured into making statements against their own government.

Jane sat there and denied that they had been mistreated, and repeated that lie when she got back to the United States.

[Teaser]

107. Using a laser beam

to split hairs.

I bet they shave real good too.

[RetroLounge]

122. So could she have made these statements

without visiting NV?

Without the visit, would you hate her just as much?

If so, then her visit is not material to your argument.

RL

[iamjoy]

12. Absence of Evidence Is Not Evidence of Absence

The anti-war movement stated the U.S. military was committing war crimes. Many returning POWs claim the VietCong tortured them to try and get them to confess to war crimes.

I can see where some may draw the conclusion that Jane Fonda, expressing sympathy for the VietCong and telling them that the U.S. was wrong, and then U.S. prisoners being tortured for participating in this "wrong" war would lead them to blame Jane Fonda & the Peace Movement.

In my opinion, such blame is misplaced. Why not blame the leaders who sent you into this wrong war? Even if you can't accept that the war is wrong, why not blame the "monsters" who did the torturing?

But, their frustration is understandable, because if they saw the VietCong as monsters, then in their view anyone who sympathizes with them is awful.

Pesonally, I blame the government for getting us into a wrong war on false pretenses. But I don't excuse torture by the VietCong. Defending yourself and your home is one thing, shoving bamboo sticks into people's ears and under their fingernails is another.

[Jacobin]

23. Funny how people blame Jane Fonda for sending them off

to get their asses shot off and killed.

You would think that soldiers could figure out who sent them over to Viet Nam and Iraq Nam, but.....naaah, that involves thinking with the part of the body that is on top of the neck

[iamjoy]

37. They Believed In It

They are fiercely patriotic and loyal to this country, so they willingly drink the Kool Aid our leaders offer on every armed conflict.

Because they are so loyal, they can't blame our leaders, their whole world would fall apart.

But, it is easy to blame Jane Fonda.

I don't totally understand the psychology behind it, but to dimsiss them as not thinking is a bit too simplistic.

[annerevere]

21. Umm, I don't think we need to prove anything to you.

Do your research. And step down off that pedestal.

[BikeWriter]

24. I can prove she told the world North VietNam was treating our POWS...

decently and providing them with medical care, and we were not.
I can prove she called our returning POWS liars and opportunists about the torture and mistreatment they received.
I can prove she advocated communism and the defeat of our political system.
In my opinion she is a liar and a traitor.

[geek tragedy]

38. She was a left-wing Swiftboat smear artist. She can go straight

to hell.

[BikeWriter]

52. I'll second that. Go to hell, hanoi jane!

[geek tragedy]

30. Jane Fonda was a troop-hating piece of shit.

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

<snip>
Fonda also posed for pictures in which she was shown applauding North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gunners, was photographed peering into the sights of an NVA anti-aircraft artillery launcher, and made ten propagandistic Tokyo Rose-like radio broadcasts in which she denounced American political and military leaders as "war criminals." She also spoke with eight American POWs at a carefully arranged "press conference," POWs who had been tortured by their North Vietnamese captors to force them to meet with Fonda, deny they had been tortured, and decry the American war effort. Fonda apparently didn't notice (or care) that the POWs were delivering their lines under duress or find it unusual the she was not allowed to visit the prisoner-of-war camp (commonly known as the "Hanoi Hilton") itself. She merely went home and told the world that " assured me they were in good health. When I asked them if they were brainwashed, they all laughed. Without exception, they expressed shame at what they had done." She did, however, charge that North Vietnamese POWs were systematically tortured in American prison-of-war camps.

To add insult to injury, when American POWs finally began to return home (some of them having been held captive for up to nine years) and describe the tortures they had endured at the hands of the North Vietnamese, Jane Fonda quickly told the country that they should "not hail the POWs as heroes, because they are hypocrites and liars." Fonda said the idea that the POWs she had met in Vietnam had been tortured was "laughable," claiming: "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed." The POWs who said they had been tortured were "exaggerating, probably for their own self-interest," she asserted. She told audiences that "Never in the history of the United States have POWs come home looking like football players. These football players are no more heroes than Custer was. They're military careerists and professional killers" who are "trying to make themselves look self-righteous, but they are war criminals according to law."
<snip>

Jane Fonda deserves every single insult coming her way.

[BikeWriter]

41. Precisely. She betrayed our troops.

[Ron Green]

67. I disagree that she "deserves every insult coming her way."

As has been pointed out, she was right about the Vietnam war, as were many of us who served then. The "FTA" movement was running strong near the end of my hitch, in '68 and '69. Many of us other than lifers knew what a bogus war it was, and even some of the lifers were full of cognitive dissonance.

The fact that Jane Fonda, theretofore a "babe" about whom any troop would have pleasant thoughts, became a high-profile spokesperson for what most thoughtful troops already knew, should not give her the status of one to be permanently unforgiven, especially since she has apologized for the most egregious of her indiscretions.

Many vets who had a tough time of it in Vietnam have had a hard road back, and for some of them on the low end of the Kohlberg scale, Jane Fonda became a simple target. Those of us who have learned that the divine nature in us demands forgiveness have indeed forgiven her. The ones who hang on to the "Hanoi Jane" appellation ought to look more deeply into the causes, not only of the Vietnam War, but of their own hard-hearted attitudes.

[geek tragedy]

71. She was the original Swiftboat smear artist. 'Nuff said.

She may have been right about the Vietnam war, but she was wrong in just about every other way.

[VOX]

103. Self-delete.

Posted in wrong spot in thread! :grr:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

111. Jane was/is a true American hero.

She opposed a genocidal war that killed millions. Calling pilots that bomb civilians "war criminals" is merely speaking the truth.

Read some history before you start waving the flag.

[BikeWriter]

118. I lived some history, and I say she enabled the torture of our POWs...

by telling the world they were being treated well and had medical treatment. She then ridiculed them when they were freed and could tell the truth!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

125. How many troops did she get killed or tortured.

As opposed to the politicians and generals, who also lied about them.

How many of the same politicians and generals lied about our treatment of Vietnamese POWS?

"We're aren't going to let a bunch of yella' dwarfs with switchblades defeat the greatest country on earth" LBJ

"There are no American combat troops in Cambodia. There are no American combat advisers in Cambodia. There will be no American combat troops or advisers in Cambodia. We will aid Cambodia. Cambodia is the Nixon doctrine in its purest form...." - President Richard M. Nixon, November 1971

"Throughout the war, U.S. officials claimed the cages did not exist. Frank E. Walton, Director of the U.S. Public Safety Program Vietnam said about Con Son Prison: "This place is more like a Boy Scout Recreational Camp."

An exchange between then Congressman Tom Harkin and a prisoner who hollered his testimony up from one Tiger pit abyss best explains why the world, conditioned by Naziesque brutality, is wary of bland American assurances that our violations of international law will be mild mannered. "I am a Buddhist monk and I spoke for peace in 1966. I am here for no reason except wanting peace." The date of this exchange was 1972 when the war was almost over."

[BikeWriter]

134. jane fonda is the topic of discussion. What others did doesn't excuse...

what she did. She told the world our POWs were being treated fairly at a time we were negotiating International Red Cross inspections of their facilities. She also said our POWs were "liars and hypocrites" when they claimed to have been mistreated. Nothing excuses that.

[Catherine Vincent]

69. There is no proof.

The only reason Jane Fonda apologized over and over about her role in the Viet Nam war is so that whiners from that era can shut up about it. But we see it didn't help. Her only mistake is opposing that war the way she did. It will follow her to her grave unfortunately. And that sucks.

[BikeWriter]

74. What sucks is she lied about our POWs!

[K-W]

84. Can you prove she knew she was lying?

Isnt it possible that she believed what she was saying, and was thus wrong but not a liar?

[BikeWriter]

91. She called the POWs liars when they got home. When they were free...

to tell the truth. It was cover your ass time for her!

[K-W]

95. You didnt answer my question.

If she sincerely believed thier stories were fabricated, it wasnt a lie, so can you prove she knew her stated beliefs were false?

[BikeWriter]

108. I'm saying they proved they were not lying when they were freed!

They collaborated each other's stories. She was still calling them liars and self-serving hypocrites!

[geek tragedy]

75. Do you think the tortured POW's she publicly insulted are "whiners?"

She had a lot to apologize for--and to be honest no amount of apologizing can ever set right what she did.

[Ron Green]

82. I think the "whiners" to whom the poster referred are not the tortured

POW's, who are relatively small in number, but the many thousands of Freeper-types who just have to have an easy target and a simple-minded world view.

I wouldn't deny a man whose torture was made worse by her actions the right to hold a grudge against Fonda, but the massive amounts of vitriol for her are carried mostly by Right Wingers and others who believe Curtis LeMay should have had his way in Southeast Asia.

[geek tragedy]

87. Well, how many people were offended by what the Swiftvets did to Kerry?

Same difference, though one can make a strong case that what Fonda did was worse.

Morally repugnant behavior should offend everyone.

[Ron Green]

90. The result of Fonda's actions, however repugnant to some, was probably

a shortening of the war and therefore a saving of lives. The result of the Swiftboat smear was the re-election of Bush.

[geek tragedy]

93. The ends justify the means? Eeks, I'm not going to go there.

And her comments about them after the war were only meant to cover her own ass.

[Ron Green]

98. Well, you may sit in judgment of whomever you wish, of course.

I've chosen to forgive her. I'm still having difficulty forgiving Right Wingers.

[Sparkman]

89. He's the universal soldier, & he really is to blame. His orders come from

far away no more. They come from here & there, and you & me, and sister can't you see, this is not the way to put an end to way. Dylan

[bribri16]

86. Unless she gave the orders to send them to Viet Nam, she is not

responsible for anything that happened to the troops there. BEING THERE is what got troops killed and tortured.

[Sparkman]

92. rite, being there AND not disobeying illegal orders. Fragging ramped up

towards the end, killing a squad leader in the jungle for killing kids and innocents frivolously.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. Here's what she did.

Here's what we did.



You decide which is the "crime".

Bravo for Jane Fonda. An American hero.

[VOX]

112. Powerful stuff.

Well done. :thumbsup:

[BikeWriter]

121. She's a traitor.

jane fonda abetted and enabled the torture of American troops by telling the world they were being treated well.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

126. Horseshit. eom

[BikeWriter]

130. Thank you for showing us your IQ.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

135. Show me your proof that Jane Fonda was a "traitor".

Or, perhaps you consider the guys who did this "heroes".

[RedCloud]

106. Prove to me our soldiers aren't tough enough to take that.

Aren't they supposed to protect our Constitution? Doesn't it have some shit in it about freedom of speech? What if Jane would have discovered Bushco running North Viet-Nam? or worse, Ho Chi Minh sought US aid first and if we hadn't intervened would have easily been elected President! (Last two parts are true!)

And why can't wing nuts forgive her when Standard Oil and many other companies had deals with the Nazis. Remember those nazis? They actually killed our troops by shooting at them.

Barbarella also helped our troops "stand at attention"! I guess that is why. Be some ugly conservative man and you get instant forgiveness. Be a sex idol and it's curtains.

[VOX]

109. Her act should be viewed in the larger context of the late '60s-early 70s.

First off, what Jane Fonda did was a lousy, lousy thing -- it was a bit of weird guerrilla theater, but it was self-indulgent and insensitive, it helped no one, and of course it was hurtful to the troops. She has apologized for this this act repeatedly, but apparently she will not be forgiven. That's the bed she made, and that's her fate.

All that said, her being photographed on the anti-aircraft gun, as weird as it sounds today, wasn't all that strange at the time. Those were extremely **insane** days, and were far more volatile and revolutionary than today's slow insanity. Every day, every week, some bit of outrageous business was going on in the world. There was a steady diet of red violence from Vietnam on nightly TV news; by the early 1970s, the larger number of Americans were in opposition to the war; there were massive protests occurring in every corner of the globe; riots, assassinations, revolution and near-revolution. Remember, this was the first time that the world had ever experienced events like these on a global scale, and in such compressed fashion and with such rapid succession.

Recall some of these early 1970s world-changing events, and the unspeakable turmoil of that time:
1970
4 students killed at Kent State University
May 4, 1970: National Guardsmen opened fire on a group of students, wounding many and killing 4, on the campus of Kent State University in Ohio.

Canadian October crisis
Two Canadian leaders were kidnapped by Front de liberation du Quebec, a Quebec separatist movement. This resulted in martial law being declared in the Quebec province. One of the leaders, Pierre Laporte, was killed by his captors, the other freed.

Charles Manson convicted of murders
Charles Manson, leader of a bizarre cult, and 4 of his followers were convicted of the murders of several people including actress Sharon Tate.

1971
The Pentagon Papers are released to newspapers
Despite an attempt to conceal the evidence researched by the government, the 47 volume study was given to the New York Times and The Washington Post who printed excerpts from the study. It revealed the Eisenhower had been warned against involvement by his generals, Kennedy had approved the overthrow of the South Vietnam president, and Johnson's covert operations had sparked the Tonkin Gulf incident.

Native Americans forced out of Alcatraz
Citing an 1868 treaty which allowed them to live on unoccupied land, they were protesting the US government's poor record of handling treaties. Alcatraz became a national park in 1972.

Attica State Prison riot in Buffalo, New York
1200 inmates took the 30 guards and other employees prison in an attempt for reforms. It ended in bloodbath four days later with 28 inmates and 9 guards killed, all by police gunfire when they took the prison back.

1972
Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland
13 protesters were shot by the British Army, touching off riots which led to the suspension of the Northern Ireland Parliament.

Israeli athletes taken hostage/killed at Olympics
The group Black September broke into the Olympic Village and killed two coaches and took nine hostages. It ended with the deaths of the hostages and their captors.

George Wallace shot while campaigning
While campaigning for the presidential nomination, he was shot and permanently paralyzed. He was well known for physically barring black students from entering the University of Alabama in 1963.

Watergate burglary
The act that felled the President two years later was committed in June of 1972 by five men, among them ex-FBI man G. Gordon Liddy and ex-CIA man E. Howard Hunt.

Attempts for Vietnam peace fail
In October, North Vietnam offered a compromise. If Communist troops were allowed to stay in South Vietnam, it wouldn't expel the South Vietnam government and would try to forge a new agreement with them. The US agreed, and declared that peace "was at hand." Once Nixon was re-elected, Kissinger reversed himself on the issue of troops remaining, and bombing of Hanoi resumed.

- - - - -
These events represent just *some* of what was going on back then.
None of this excuses what she did, but in the broader canvas of the era, what she did didn't seem like any big deal -- *at that time.*

[RetroLounge]

124. Wow, the hate here looks just like Free Republic...

Get help and get over it...

RL

[Moderator]

137. Locking....

This thread has run its course.


DU Moderator