Dean should be ashamed of himself- Face the Nation Appearance

[ignatiusr]

Howard Dean just sealed the deal- there will be no Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark ticket.

Saying Clark was a Republican until 25 days ago is ridiculous and misleading. <b>Dean forgot to mention that Clark voted for Clinton in '92, voted for Clinton again in '96, and voted for Gore in 2000.</b> The fact that on one occassion two years ago, after just retiring from three decades of non-partisan military service, Clark agreed to get up and say a few nice things about Republicans (long before the Bush admin. had royally screwed up the country) is more important. <b>It's misleading, Dean knows it's misleading, he doesn't care.</b>

Aside from his false statements about Clark, Dean also stumbled substantially on the other two issues.

Gephardt accused him of siding with Newt Gingrich on the Medicare bill in the 90's. Dean said that was "flat-out false." The problem is, he absolutely did side with New Gingrich on that Medicare bill. Dean's excuse for this lie is that he meant it was "false that he sided with Newt Gingrich." Democrats opposed it, Gingrich supported it, Dean supported it. If that's not called siding with Gingrich instead of Dems, what <i>is</i> it called?

Again he waffled on the statement about his statements on gutting Medicare, raising the retirement age and cutting veterans benefits. His excuse is that we were in a fiscal crisis at the time? What exactly does he call our current half a trillion dollar deficit?

This was just an ugly appearance by Dean. I liked him until now, and I hoped he would be VP if Clark won, or select Clark as his VP if he won. Now I just pray he doesn't win the nomination, and fades from view after the primaries. Because he's hurting the Democratic party.

That's my opinion, but I would love to hear how Dean supporters justify these statements. Because they just seem to me to be obviously illogical and deliberately misleading.

[Sweetpea]

1. Well, It will just pave the way for a Kerry/Clark ticket or a Clark /Kerry

ticket. I would even like a Clark/Edwards.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. Clark/Edwards Would Be Fantastic

I love Edwards, he's probably my new #2 after Dean's disappointing "just another politician" performance today.

Clark/Edwards would set up Democratic dominance in the White House for the next 16 years, IMO!

DTH

[soleft]

There's a reason why Hillary keeps getting mentioned in this thing

Look for Clark/Clinton.

[Sephirstein]

23. HELLLLLLLLLLLLZ NO!!!

We'd be fucked! The Pukes would (rightfully) call Hillary for task for not keeping her promise to New Yorkers.

[DemVet]

60. when it comes to...

...seeking higher office and saving the country, the American public will be forgiving.

[DemVet]

58. or Clinton/Clark

[bicentennial_baby]

5. I like Clark/Edwards!

There's a ticket I'd like to see!

[Copperred]

2. Dean is THE MAN.

Stop crying. Dean is going to to win the nomination and for very specific reasons he does not want Clark on his ticket.

[Romberry]

4. Clark should be ashamed of himself

FUND RAISING for Republicans. Praising Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Dubya.

You really don't want to play this game. If Clark can't stand the heat he needs to get out of the kitchen.

The Doctor is In!

[liberalnurse]

16. Clark sure did!

He was a republican the entire summer! He didn't want to identify himself until he had time to sneak in and change his party affiliation to a democrat just so he could run for President.


It is all too clear now!

[tjdee]

21. IS it possible he was...gasp...an INDEPENDENT?

There's nothing wrong with being an independent.

It doesn't even mean you're a wingnut.

[LWolf]

32. I've been an independent most of my life.

I just registered with a party last spring to participate in the primary.

I never campaigned for or did fundraising for a particular party while I was an independent.

And if I had been supporting republicans with my time and money, and publicly praising Bush Inc., I wouldn't call myself a democrat a few months later.

As an independent, I voted dem and 3rd party. So when I decided to sign on to a party, the dem choice was logical.

[tjdee]

39. Did anyone ask you to fundraise?

I'm not being fresh, LOL.
Clark fundraised for both Democrats and Republicans, not soley Republicans. After the now famous Lincoln day thing, he campaigned for Max Cleland.

Obviously, as an independent, Clark didn't vote third party, but switched his vote between the two major ones. He's not an ideologue, fine.

[caledesi]

41. Same here, LW.

[gully]

20. Here Here

:toast:

[Pepperbelly]

24. how many times will we have to endure these ...

rather addle-pated attacks without Deaniacs being willing to actually grapple with the facts?

[MIMStigator]

34. That's no way to talk about your next president

:)

[MrTriumph]

6. Sorry you feel that way

Ignatiusr- Nobody is perfect.

Tell you what, I'll trade your disappointment with Dean for Clark's votes for Reagan and Nixon.

None of these guys are perfect. What would you expect?

On the other hand, Bush is FAR from perfect and he should the focus of your discontent, no?

[Hamlette]

7. I agree

I was starting to warm to Dean. His statements about Medicare were incomprehensible. I actually think Schiefer did a good job of trying to pin him down. He basically said: I supported what Gingrich wanted but I didn't support Gingrich.

Okay. :eyes: :+

The stuff about Clark was unfair.

We are all so happy here when someone tells a story of some republican neighbor turning on Bush and joining the Dems. But if they are smart and want to participate in the party we call them plants.

[Rose Siding]

19. Yeah, it's wonderful when they turn on Bush!

Should it earn them the presidency?

[AWD]

8. 25days ago...

....Clark announced he was a Democrat. Sounds like a fair statement from Dean to me.

Need a tissue??

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Don't Let The Facts Get In The Way Of A Good Argument

He voted for Clinton in 92 and 96 and Gore in 00... and campaigned for Max Cleland in 02......

[DoveTurnedHawk]

12. And He Donated $1,000 to Erskine Bowles and Campaigned for Swett

A NH Democrat.

DTH

[gully]

13. How do you guys know this? I'd like to see a link...

I dont disbelieve you, but if it's noted somewhere, it's worth a peek.

Thanks.

[ima_sinnic]

15. praised BushCo in 2003 . . . & wouldn't declare a party until

. . . 25 days ago.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. He Praised BushCo in May, 2001

before they lost their collective minds....

You're entitled to your own arguments but not your own facts....

[Cappurr]

18. The truth is....

That although Clark may have officially announced he was a democrat 25 days ago, he has been expousing Democratic issues on CNN since before the Iraq war began. He has been repeatedly asked for several months as to whether he is a democrat or not and has demurred. As a former military man, trained to be apolitical, that is not so damn unusal. And besides, who cares what his label is. What is is vision? That is what is important.

And as for Dean, I have spoken on his behalf on this board many times and intended to vote in the primary for Dean until Clark entered. Then I was between the two. Now there is no way I will vote for Dean.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Dean's Mean And A Hater.....

Those are fundamental flaws from which no man can recover.....

[Cha]

50. No Dean is Not! that's your perception...I don't see that at all.

Because he tells the truth..you call him "mean"...waaa waaaa

[Kira]

9. I respectfully disagree with you.

I am a Dean supporter. I thought that he did a good job answering Bob Scheifer( is that his name?) When Gephardt made that comment he was trying to paint Dean as a Republican lite. He wanted people to think that he shared all of the crazy garbage of Newt. I liked when Dean said he wasn't going to take any "guff" from the other Democrats. I don't have any strong feelings against Clark, but I do get the feeling that he could have either been a moderate Republican or a Democrat depending on who he wanted to run against.
I later saw Gephardt on Meet the Press and Russert asked him about siding with Reagan on taxes and something else and he said that yes he did but that now that he looks back on it and it was a mistake.
I believe that Dean feels and felt that Medicare needs some overhauling and that it's spending needed to be slowed in order for it to not self destruct. I think that it is a valid position. I also really liked when he said that he is a Doctor and when he has a theory that is disproven by facts that come up then he changes his opinion based on the new evidence. Unlike the Republicans who just throw out the facts.
I do agree that he put himself in a bad position for getting Clark to be his VP but he has mentioned that he probably would look to an insider like a senator or congressmen like Clinton did to help him figure out how Washington works. I thought it was a good job overall. I thought that Scheifer was out to make him look stupid and it didn't work.

[Justice]

57. Changing Opinion Based on New Evidence

"I also really liked when he said that he is a Doctor and when he has a theory that is disproven by facts that come up then he changes his opinion based on the new evidence."

I thought this was very well said by Dean.

At the risk of being flamed, could not the same principle be said to apply to Clark? Except for being a doctor of course.

Why is it so hard to believe that people and their views evolve, mature and development.

Edit: correct spelling

[w13rd0]

10. Maybe a run for Senator from AK or Gov of AK...

...before launching a Presidential bid would have made folks a lil more comfortable with his conversion.

[Pepperbelly]

27. why alaska?

Just wondering...

[QC]

44. ROFLMAO!!!

[Renew Deal]

52. Maybe if Dean came from a larger more southern state

would make me feel like he had a chance against Bush.

[Justice]

59. In Another Time Maybe Yes But Not Now

If we had the luxury of more time for that to happen, that would be great, but we don't. We have a compelling situation.

Remember Nader saying that democrats and republicans were the same (which made people think Gore and Bush were the same). Most of us knew then, and the majority of the country knows now, they weren't and aren't.

This bunch in DC needs to get out now, we can't afford another four years. I don't think we can wait for Clark to come up thru the ranks, no pun intended.

[Rose Siding]

14. So it's OK to revere the Bush team

pre- Sept 11 because that was "long before the Bush admin. had royally screwed up the country"? This was after the 2000 coup, right? And have you read up on Condi's past and Rummy's and the others?

As to Gep's medicare mischaracterization, Dean supported a 200 bil growth rate reduction, as did Clinton, which he got. Gingrich's package was 270 and was an attempt to gut the system. Why is that so hard to distinguish? Now who will argue that rising medical costs DON'T need to be addressed?

Re: your concern on "waffling". Consider Clinton's comments at the Harken Steak Fry:

"They believe in government by ideology, enemies and attack. We believe in government by experiment, evidence and argument.
We actually think we may be wrong once in awhile and have to change. Not them....When practical people get in a hole, they say 'Stop digging'."

Dems who don't want to wrest control of the party and the govt from the hands of the monied are a gas. That's what will "hurt" the Democratic party.

[JNelson6563]

17. I have seen much talk about

Dean being "intellectually dishonest" on various issues today but here's what I wonder about, and tell me if I'm just outta left-field here......

Ok, Gephardt says Dean "sided with Gingrich" on the Medicare thing, right? As it turns out it was something Clinton signed right? A Clinton thing was it then? So was it in fact Gingrich agreeing with Clinton's thing there? But since Gingrich falls into the "agree" column we can say Dean agrees with Gingirch? Help me along if I am mistaken on my take on this.

To me this whole excersize seems to be an intellectually dishonest on the part of Gephardt but again, I may be misunderstanding it.

Julie

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. The Whole Medicare Brouhaha Is A Tempest In A Teapot

imho....

But why did Dean have to pee all over Clark today....

That sealed the deal for me.....

[tjdee]

26. Howard Dean = punk ass.

I'd retired that phrase, because really, compared to Bush he's definitely not, but it's back again.

I knew Howard Dean was taking a swipe at Clark when he said that Gep was treating him like *he* was the one who just joined the Democratic party.

You know what? Dean was just a glowing and a beaming about Clark right up until he declared he was running. Now, he magically changes his tune.

I got Dean's number alright.

[Pepperbelly]

29. Dean did himself ...

a lot of damage today. A lot.

[MIMStigator]

36. So much for being Clark's VP

Too bad. Dean would have made a good vp attack dog

[union_maid]

38. S'OK

There are lots of good VP candidates. I'm liking Edwards very much.

[blm]

30. nods to you...

you nailed him with that one after the first debate. And you get more right every day.

[polmaven]

46. You're right.

Dean was speaking well of Clark right up until the time Clark rebuffed Dean's advances to join his campaign as a running mate. Suddenly, Clark is the devil in disguise.

I am supporting Kerry, and will support whichever of the Democrats is nominated, but this really was a little blatent. Will Governor Dean publicly support Clark if he is the nominee? If he intends to, maybe he needs to cool it a little on the accusation of not being a good democrat now.

[Cha]

51. This is politics ...not a "tea party"....

And you can call Dean a "punk ass" all you want...that does Not make it true just because you brought it out of "retirement".

[janekat]

31. Now watch - he'll issue an apology tomorrow - as usual.... n/t

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. Probably not a Republican, but not a Democrat either

Clark would be an Independent swing voter. I'm guessing that Dean is upset with Clark for not telling him these things when they were talking. Dean must be very dissapointed in him, because he really did want him to be his VP. Now he most likely won't want him. Dean is genuinely upset with Clark for those votes or he wouldn't have mentioned it.

[OneTwentyoNine]

35. IF Dean lied he should be ashamed,did he lie??? NOOOO n/t...

....

[Eloriel]

37. No, here's the guy who's hurting the party

ANd most of all, the people
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=423064

Eloriel

[carrowsboy]

40. DEAN/BRAUN

That's my dream ticket now.

[IndianaGreen]

42. I don't believe that Clark voted for Gore, I think he voted for Bush!

Could a man that voted for Gore in November 2000, say the following in March 2001:

we've got the great team in office: men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condolzeezza Rice, Paul O'Neill--people I know very well--our president, George W. Bush. We need them there...

Only a Freeper would make such a statement in March 2001!

[Renew Deal]

55. Actually him and Colin served together.

I believe they worked on the Powell doctrine together. I don't think it's a problem to be respectful of your colleagues.

[Shanty Oilish]

43. We don't doubt that Dean is a Democrat. Can you say as much of Clark?

My doubts increase daily. And Clark's saying nothing to ease them.

[ignatiusr]

45. Yes

I can absolutely say as much for Clark. This is very simple, look at the issues. He's Democratic on all of them. You can make broad accusations all you want, but at the end of the day, his values are Democratic, both socially and internationally. Pro-Choice, Pro-Environment, Ant-Bush Tax Cut, Pro-Affirmative Action, War critic, etc. etc.

If Clark is doing nothing to change your mind about his party affiliation, then I can't help but think that you're not paying very close attention to him.

[Shanty Oilish]

54. I'm paying attention all right. I just don't believe everything...

...that proceeds from the man's mouth. The same mouth that delivered effusive praise of the Bush regime. And its predecessors.
He's Dem on the issues? What evidence do you have for that, aside from his words?

[WyLoochka]

47. I want someone who knows what it

means to be a Democrat as the Democratic nominee.

We have 8.5 who have that qualification (Lieberman is an 0.5 and Clark a 0.0 the way I see it).

[QC]

48. My parents voted for Reagan.

Should I tell them that we don't want their support and they should just vote for Bush this coming November?

Am I tainted by their having voted for Reagan, even though I always vote Democratic? Is there some sort of generational requirement to be an authentic Democrat? Is it matrilineal or patrilineal? Is there some sort of ritual purification I can undergo to remove the stigma of my parents' actions in 1980 and 1984?

[Cha]

53. Your parents aren't running for Prez...that's a Vast difference.

[Larkspur]

49. I didn't think it possible, but I have more support for Dean now than

before today. Glad he called Clark a Republican and cut off the illusion of a Clark VP.

I've never trusted Clark. There's something about his mannerisms that makes me very suspicious of him. He can spew all the Democratic lingo he wants, but fundraising for Republicans is a big NO-NO for a future Democratic presidential candidate.

Even when I switched to the Republican Party because I got pissed at the CT state Dems 10 years ago, I never fundraised for the Republican Party and except for voting for John Rowland the first 2 times, I always voted Dem on every other ticket. I actually was going to switch to Independent 10 years ago, but a friend of mine who was Independent said that his ownly regret about being Independent was that he couldn't vote in the primary and that was the main reason why I went Republican, and it paid off in 2000 when I voted for McCain in the Republican primary. I knew that McCain would get slaughtered in South Carolina, but wanted to make Bush spend some of those millions he acquired. Last year I switched back to the Democratic Party so that I could help resusitate it from the ground up and that was BEFORE I joined Dean's campaign.

[Sean Reynolds]

56. So let me get this straight.

Attacking Dean on his past is ok? Attacking Clark on his past isn't ok? Attacking Dean because he flip-flops on something he said 10 years ago is ok? Attacking Clark because he flip-flops on something he said a few years ago isn't ok? Bah. I've liked Clark and will continue to like Clark, whether or not Dean feels he's a Democrat or Republican. BUT this is a battle and before Clark entered the race he should have known that his past would play a part.

You just can't vote Republican from the 70s to the 80s without it coming back to haunt you. You can't just praise Republicans in 2001 without it coming back to haunt you. Well unless you're RUNNING as a REPUBLICAN. Yes people change their mind and that is all peaches and cream. But how long did it take Clark to finally say he was a Democrat? To me Clark very easily could have played the Republican against a Democratic incumbent. THAT is not someone this party needs.

Just because he MAY have voted for Clinton, doesn't mean he voted for Gore. As IG stated above, if he truly did vote for Gore and didn't support the coup of 2000 - WHY in the very next year would he drool over the Bush administration and their policies. It also doesn't help Clark was coaxed into running BY the DLC because they saw the Dean camp GROWING. God knows the DLC worked so hard to get into the White House in the 90s, can't have an outsider get in. That'll throw 'em back another 10 years.......