Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:15 AM
Original message |
Would you advise abortion in this case? |
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Would you advise any of the couples listed below to have an abortion?
A: A married, devoutly Xian couple are expecting their first child in Milwaukee, WI. The husband is considering attending seminary when his wife becomes pregnant.
B: A married couple have a difficult marriage. They are pregnant with their fourth child. Two older children have died of illness. The father has a steady, relatively well-paying job.
C: An upper-middle class family in Miami, FL is pregnant with their third child. They have two daughters. The father is an airline pilot and money has never been a problem. They are not particularly religious.
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demnan
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message |
1. I wouldn't advise anyone to get an abortion |
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It's an individual decision.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
7. Assume they've asked for your advice. |
Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
10. Under that assumption |
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My advise would be, "no, don't have an abortion."
That's what I would say if asked under all three scenarios.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #10 |
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You're partly responsible for bringing Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler AND American Terrorist Paul Hill into the world!
Yay!
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Terran
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
20. What EXACTLY is your point here? |
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That is if you have one? That these three people should have been aborted when they were fetuses because of what they did as adults? What a bunch of crap.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
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It's a parody of a very well-known anti-choice argument.
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Terran
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
27. Gee, thanks for the 'parody' |
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What a waste of time. The point is valid, but you might have saved me from clicking this thread if you'd just stated it up front. Look how many useless responses you've generated.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #27 |
31. No response is ever useless |
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Although some come very, very close.
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #27 |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #37 |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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beam me up scottie
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #44 |
58. I don't think I've ever seen anyone miss the point by |
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so much yet still feel qualified to criticize.
Egad, glad you weren't here when the "Is God Dead?" thread was posted.
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Terran
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #58 |
69. I missed the point (as did 90% of the people on this thread) |
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because the OP masked her very valid point in a pointless exercise in cleverness. I don't have any patience with such BS, it belongs in the Lounge. THAT gives me the right to criticize.
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beam me up scottie
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
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You evil disruptor, you...:evilgrin:
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #29 |
42. Oooh! Gold star for BMUS! |
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I honestly thought everyone was familiar with variations of the original argument, i.e., the abortion you have might be the next Beethoven, MLK, Jonas Salk, etc..
Oopsie!
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beam me up scottie
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #42 |
51. PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE, |
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and save this, you may need it.
It's a good argument to have handy to debunk the anti-choicers.
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Splatter Phoenix
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #51 |
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It's no better an argument than the one that asks "who would you elect" and gives you masked choices playing down Churchill as a drinker and playing up Adolph Hitler as a man who never cheated on his wife, etc., etc., it just doesn't work as an intelligent argument.
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blondeatlast
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
55. Don't call it a "parody." It's a counter-argument. |
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Either both arguments are parodies, or they are arguments.
Gotta admit, i didn't see that coming. Good work, MB.
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Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
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That's the biggest line of bullshit I've ever seen spewed on DU, and you damned well know it.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #21 |
25. Well yes, it is bullshit! |
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It is, in fact, a parody of quite well-known bullshit, illustrated here: http://www.biblecenter.com/illustrations/abortion.htm
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Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
35. Yeah, well their argument is bullshit, too |
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False ssumnpstions are false assumptions regardless of what POV is being presented.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #35 |
39. Maybe you should try decaf, Walt |
Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #39 |
66. Methinks you need to state plainly your point |
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The tone of your question was serious-sounding. And while I got the punchline, some folks are not. I think some people haven't seen the original "question" and that is causing them to incorrectly infer your motives.
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OmmmSweetOmmm
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:32 AM
Original message |
Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message |
47. Folks that are involved in the choice debate |
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Whether for choice or against choice. The argument is almost as common as Pascal's Wager (the idea that the only options are a Xian god or no god at all, the point being that you're better off worshipping the Xian god just in case).
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demnan
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #7 |
52. I would refuse to pursuade them either way |
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It's a bit of a touchy subject for me as I was accused by a former "friend" of helping her get an abortion. I did go with her to the clinic but only to provide support, not to make her decision for her.
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GreenPartyVoter
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message |
2. Are they actually asking my advice? Because if not it's none of |
Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #2 |
htuttle
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message |
3. I would advise them not to listen to anyone but each other |
Guaranteed
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message |
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I think it's up to them. I certainly don't know enough about their situation to give advice, and it wouldn't be right to do so even if I did.
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in_cog_ni_to
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message |
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It's their life, not mine.
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Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message |
6. I wouldn't stick my nose into their business |
Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
9. Assume you've been invited. |
Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
12. If asked, the asnwer would be no under all three scenarios n/t |
Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
15. Great! Now Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler and Paul Hill have been born! |
Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
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Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 11:24 AM by Walt Starr
because of a single word, ENVIRONMENT.
I had nothing to do with any of them. Your rheotirc is extremely flawed here because of a base assumption that the parents of those three considered abortions.
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Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #23 |
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Your missing the point. <g>
It was a staged question, the flipside of an old anti-abortion chestnut.
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Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #33 |
40. No,. I'm not. I call any flawed armuent a flawed argument |
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This argument is equally flawed as its anti-choice counterpart.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #40 |
43. Um, it's not really an argument, Walt |
Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #43 |
46. That's how you presented it. n/t |
Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #46 |
59. That's what you read into it |
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I certainly can't be responsible for that. Sorry.
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Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #59 |
62. A simple change would ahve corrected it |
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Just a simple thing could have taken away teh seriousness you presented.
:)
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #62 |
67. For you, but perhaps it would have added to other's confusion |
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Unfortunately, I can't please everyone...
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Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #40 |
45. That was the point and you are correct |
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it is a VERY flawed argument and wasn't offered seriously. It is the counter-point to people who offer the original argument, retooled for the left.
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Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #45 |
53. I contend that it WAS presented seriously |
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there was no humor or any indication that the OP was not absolutely serious about the presentation.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #53 |
56. And I contend that it wasn't. |
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Since I am the one who made the presentation, I should know.
Right?
;)
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Walt Starr
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #56 |
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Now, had you put the emoticon on the OP that you did here, you would not have been presenting it as a seriuos question.
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Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #53 |
64. The you will have to ask the poster |
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I thought the question was serious until I read the punch line. As I mention in another post, I did something similar to rebut the stup anti-abortion argument a while back. Of course, I was anything but subtle about it.
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ET Awful
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
30. Only if you assume that the only families ever to fit your descriptions |
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are those of the names you mentioned.
Do you really think that the Dahmers were the only family in history whose husband considered attending Seminary school?
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #30 |
Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #34 |
50. Correct me if I am wrong |
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You were re-tooling the anti-abortion argument as a means of showing the spuriousness of the original argument?
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #50 |
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The entire idea is completely ridiculous especially when shown from the other side.
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Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #54 |
61. Some folks are getting over-heated |
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I fear, so you may have to be more obvious. <g>
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #61 |
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People should get overheated. The very idea that the decision to abort could spare the world a Paul Hill or Jeffrey Dahmer is patently ridiculous, but then, so is the idea that an abortion could deprive the world of a Beethoven or MLK.
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Terran
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message |
11. You haven't stated any reason to get an abortion, in any case. |
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Therefore your question is non-operative, it cannot be answered.
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nothingshocksmeanymore
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:19 AM
Response to Original message |
14. I would force all three of them to get an abortion |
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Not really but there is no difference between forced abortion and forced birthing....two sides of the same coin where we the people interfere with other people's right to medical privacy.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
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Now the world will be spared Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler and Paul Hill!
Not really but there is no difference between forced abortion and forced birthing
Very, very true.
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MissB
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message |
16. Even if I was asked for advice |
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the advice I'd give in each case is that it should be a decision that should be between the couple and their doctor. Even as a friend, it wouldn't really be any of my business. As a friend, my job is to be supportive of their decision, not try to make it for them.
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MissB
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 11:20 AM by missb
must've clicked twice.
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Kaylee
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message |
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I wouldn't stick my nose in it. I'd be more than happy to listen, but I wouldn't want to be responsible for anyone's resentment one way or another.
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flyingfysh
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message |
19. it's none of our business |
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It is up to the people involved, no one else.
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Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message |
24. Methinks that Madame Butterfly is pulling our collective leg |
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She is re-casting a favorite anti-abortion "test" I did the same thing myself a while back: http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/mt/archives/000213.html
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Doctor_J
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message |
26. This thread is really, REALLY offensive |
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I don't know if there is a point to it, but advice on reproductive choices is supposed to be give by trained counselors close to the situation and the woman's physcian. That's it. WTF does the fact that Jeffrey Dahmer's dad was a seminarian have to do with anything?
Yikes,
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
28. Well, in the real world, people often ask others for advice |
Doctor_J
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #28 |
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Sorry, MB. I just now got your point. Ignore me I am having a bad day.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #73 |
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This sort of question is supposed to be provocative. The people in the anti-choice version are usually among the very best in history (i.e., Beethoven), so the people in the answer had to ve among the very worst.
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noamnety
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
38. Yes, that's the point |
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This is an argument that the anti-choice crowd regularly uses. They point to good people, conceived under difficult circumstances, as "proof" that abortion should be illegal.
The POINT of the thread is to demonstrate how offensive it is.
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Kelvin Mace
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
41. Read the entire thread |
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there is a point to her question.
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Tierra_y_Libertad
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message |
32. Yes. And, here's why. |
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If they are that uncommitted to having and rearing a child and seek my advice, I would surmise that they don't want a child.
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bleedingheart
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message |
36. I would be there to talk to but I would not advise them... |
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they need to make their own choice.
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pitohui
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message |
48. don't advise anything unless asked |
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in all cases, if you have to ask, i advise you not to have the kid, kids should be wanted, not something you have because you were too lazy to update your "to do" list
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blondeatlast
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message |
49. I wouldn't advise it in any case. It's entirely up to those directly |
gollygee
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message |
57. IF they asked for advice |
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Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 11:38 AM by gollygee
A: No I wouldn't because if they're very religious they're more likely to regret it in the long run.
B: Bringing a baby into a difficult marriage isn't always a good idea. If she's seriously considering abortion I would think it might be a good idea in this case, unless the grief from the death of the other two children would make her have emotional issues. Maybe an unbiased psychologist to help her sort out her grief and feelings would be a good idea.
C: Unless they want an abortion for some reason, no.
I would not advise abortion for zero population growth reasons. I would advise birth control for that reason, but if someone unexpectedly becomes pregnant then I think they should make the choice based on their emotional state, whether they are likely to have serious regrets about an abortion, on their financial situation, and on the state of their marriage, or whatever of that seems relevant to them. It is too personal and emotional a choice to be made for political reasons.
I choose to only have one child, but if I found out I was pregnant I would not have an abortion unless there was some health problem. I wouldn't have an abortion even if I found out I was pregnant, and had another baby, and then found out I was pregnant again. I would be a mom of three in that case.
Edited because I should have read the whole thread before I answered . . . I have half a mind to delete my response.
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Modem Butterfly
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #57 |
71. A thoughtful, serious answer is the point. |
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The original version is phrased so that most folks would, in fact, advise an abortion and would be aborting everyone from Jonas Salk to Jesus Christ (seriously!).
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gollygee
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #71 |
75. I thought it was about zero population growth again |
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Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 12:07 PM by gollygee
But I see where you're going with it.
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beam me up scottie
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message |
60. Are atheists so much better at this |
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because we've had to debate religious pseudo-logic our entire lives?
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demgurl
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message |
65. I am just a person and simply can not adivse. |
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The great thing about choice is everyone gets to choose what they will do, not that someone will do it for them.
If a friend cornered me and asked for my opinion on her case I would simply tell her that I understand what she is feeling because I have been there myself, but in life we are adults and we do have to make our own decisions because we are the main ones effected by those decisions. If the person is asking me then I assume it is something they are seriously considering so I would ask them to think it over and look deep within their heart and mind as to what is the right decision for them. I would also offer to take them and be with them afterwords. Having experienced the procedure myself I would also offer to answer any questions they may have.
I think it is important in any situation, regarding abortion, not to act judgmental toward the person asking the question because quite honestly it really is none of your business what they do.
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ComerPerro
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Mon Aug-01-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message |
70. A: Hell no. B: no, but depends. C: No, why would they? EDIT: I get it |
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Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 12:00 PM by ComerPerro
EDIT: I see where you are going with this.
I love it!
Great way to frame this!
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Solly Mack
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message |
Greyhound
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message |
77. Anything that get 'em off the 101. n/t |
Splatter Phoenix
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message |
78. I'd rather go back... |
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Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 12:19 PM by Splatter Phoenix
And stop that neighbor who molested Dahmer, maybe make sure his parents didn't break up, send him in for professional help...
Get Adolph a job as a mediocre painter...
And maybe try to convince Paul Hill that religion in itself is a fallacy, but if you're GOING to listen to it, you might as well listen to the thou shalt not murder part of it, and not the Christ's "I come bearing a sword" or whatever he said part.
EDIT: *sigh* I kind of missed the point myself. I thought you were being serious. v_v I'm pro-choice, not pro-abortion, so I don't go around saying "KILL YOUR UNBORN PARASITES THAT FEED UPON YOU IN YOUR WOMB", and I suppose a dumb argument (like killing off Beethoven) deserves a dumb counter-argument, because maybe that's all fundies and the like understand. Apologies, everyone.
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Ysolde
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message |
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I just recently (last week) received the anti-abortion e-mail here at work. I do hope I kept it so that I can send this to the person (and the entire list) that sent it to me. It is a PERFECT reversal of their stupid "argument" against abortion.
I know a lot didn't "get" your post (and, to be honest, I did not until I read further and saw the "punch line"), but it is a valid "rebuttal", and I hope to get to use it myself.
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radwriter0555
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message |
81. Sure, why not? What's wrong with abortion? |
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It's no big deal, just another form of birth control.
Don't like it? Don't have one.
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Mon Aug-01-05 12:20 PM
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Thu Apr 18th 2024, 01:02 AM
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