Grandmother, 68, confronted by cops for accidental honk, is

[Mairead]

tasered twice, then jailed for 'misuse of a horn on a city street'.

And -however could we have guessed!- she's Black:



http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/3426924/detail.html

[formerrepuke]

1. There is even an opinion poll attached: at 18% feel that she deserved it!

What a crock of sh*t.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Read my post #6

This was not such a nice sweet innocent family.

I don't agree she should have been tasered, but there was a good reason for the cops to mistrust this lady.

[bloom]

11. that's insane.

Do THEY expect to get tasered if they accidentally honk THEIR horns. :grr:

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. I doubt it was an accidental honking

see my post #6

I have a good friend who is a cop in KCMO. She said they had been at this house repeatedly, due to the activities of what they consider the most violent street gang in the city, which was based in this lady's basement.

The cops believed she was honking to alert the occupants of her house that the cops were in the neighborhood. And the cops were there because of neighbor complaints of drug dealing from this house.

[bloom]

19. Ok - lets say that is why she honked

how do you get to tasering from that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Apparently she and her husband were verbally abusive

and threatened the cops. There had been several shootings in and around their house. Her husband came outside, started yelling at the cops and they thought he had a gun in his hand. It was night time.

No they shouldn't have tasered her but I can certainly understand why the cops felt threatened by this couple.

[Fescue4u]

27. Thats some pretty relevant info

So she was essentially a gang lookout?

She seems kinda old for that, but I really had the feeling that the news story didnt cover it all

[fishwax]

29. do you have a link for this info?

the AP story said that the police were there b/c of a disturbance call across the street. I tried to google the information about her being Fat Tone's grandmother, but couldn't find anything, nor any stories about past shootings in her house. Obviously you're in closer vacinity than I am, but I'm just curious if there's another place I could find this info ...

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Sure, lots of them

http://www.sfist.com/archives/2005/05/25/fat_tone_killed_in_possible_retaliation.php

http://www.dedicatedrecords.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=24

This link gives info about her being Fat Tone's grandmother. It's a long story, but interesting:
http://www.pitch.com/Issues/current/news/feature.html

Death Of Fat Tone Leads To Crime Spike, KMBC Reports

Recent Robberies May Be Connected To KC Rapper

POSTED: 9:50 pm CDT June 29, 2005
UPDATED: 10:23 pm CDT June 29, 2005

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- A new picture is forming on why crime may seem like it's out of control in the metro area.

KMBC's Jim Flink reported Wednesday that several recent home invasions, carjackings, street robberies and shootings may be linked to associates of murdered rap artist Anthony "Fat Tone" Watkins.

"A community in an uproar -- lots of confusions ... violence (is) on the upswing, to some degree," said Mark Porter, with Hundred Men of Blue Hills.

Investigators said they believe associates of Fat Tone are committing random crimes, such as home invasions and carjackings, and in addition, enemies of Fat Tone are retaliating.

Officials said the slaying of Watkins' aunt earlier this month may be connected, as was the murder of a man Monday at East 55th Street and College Avenue. Police said a Fat Tone associate may be the shooter in that case.

<more>

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/4668770/detail.html

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/entertainment/4538279/detail.html

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/4531096/detail.html

http://www.thekansascitychannel.com/entertainment/4527897/detail.html

http://www.rapnews.net/News/2004/11/02/Mac.Dre.Up/

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/05/26/BAG6QCUNG31.DTL

http://www.ballerstatus.net/print/86538296.html

[fishwax]

62. Okay, so the link mentions him as her grandson, but i still see no info

about wrongdoing by the grandmother or their house as the center of things. Thank you for the links you posted. The long article from Pitch was an interesting read, and it seems clear enough that Fat Tone lived a violent life. But as far as his grandmother being an accessory in that life or her house being a center of operations for it all, that all still seems to be just speculation, without any textual evidence.

You've said that the police were cruising the neighborhood b/c of the drug problem and they were immediately wary of her b/c of their past interactions with her. But the record indicates that they were called to the neighborhood for a disturbance across the street, and the officers testified that they initially thought when she honked that she might have called in the disturbance report and might need help, which doesn't quite mesh.

I don't know. Either way, it's awful what happened to her (as you've repeatedly agreed) and it's ceratainly tragic what seems to have happened to the neighborhood/community as a whole.

Also, I feel I should post this, which disputes the media stories about that the crime spike is related to retaliation for Fat Tone's murder:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/12070631.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Thanks

This computer I am on won't let me open links to The Star. So I will read that article later. But thanks for pointing it out.

[Mairead]

34. How amazing. And yet she and her husband have completely clean records

...and their house hasn't been stolen by the cops under the 'admin forfeit' laws. I wonder why not--it's not as though the cops need real evidence or any of that old-timey stuff.

I wonder whether it's possible that you're listening too uncritically to the police? We do actually know that nothing is ever the fault of the cops, it's always that the victim 'asked for it' (the psychopath's excuse). So maybe that's the case here, too? That there's actually nothing wrong with these folks other than their skin color?

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. The cops were still investigating the drug ring

when the grandson was murdered. The facts are: He was one of the leaders of a very violent street gang. He was the #1 suspect in a drive by murder of a rapper from the west coast who was in KC last November. There has been a drastic spike in violent crime in the neighborhood where his grandma (the taser victim) lives. His aunt was recently murdered. Several members of this gang are now in state prison and have given detailed accounts of the criminal activities of this gang.

I know this neighborhood well. I used to teach in a nearby school. I have a good friend who lives around the corner from this house. The changes in this neighborhood in the past 5 years have been dramatic and alarming.

I am no defender of cops, trust me. I am adamantly opposed to tasering and don't think they should have tasered this woman. But she isn't all that innocent either. If we want to gather case stories in an effort to get rid of tasers, this just isn't one I would recommend we use. That's all. :)

[Mairead]

45. This sounds a whole lot like "trial by innuendo"

She and her spouse are not their (late) grandson or any of their grandson's friends. They're innocent. If the cops had anything at all besides smoke and mirrors, these people would be living in the street by now, their house snatched and sold out from under them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Did you read any of the articles I posted?

I guess not.

[Mairead]

49. Yes, I did: they're solid innuendo too.

The key fact in this case--which you seem to be ignoring--is that the record shows these folks to be upright citizens.

Many people live in dreadful areas without themselves being dreadful. You're putting out police propaganda as though it were objective fact, and I really can't see why anyone should take that at face value.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Upright citizens don't let family members

use their house to sell drugs. I saw that with my own eyes. I have worked in the urban core for 25 years now and I can tell a drug house when I see one.

I also think we can assume upright citizens don't have both a daughter and a grandson murdered within a few months of each other. That could be coincidental, but it is also pretty suspicious.

[Mairead]

60. Upright citizens don't work so hard at spreading innuendo and rumours.

Where's the evidence? How many people were convicted of selling out of that cellar? Who were they? What sentences did they get? And please don't give me any 'well Joey Jukes got busted and he was a friend of Bozo the Clown who once petted this woman's cat's niece when he and her grandson were hanging out in the cellar so that proves it.'

I'm having a hard time believing what I'm reading in your posts. Whether someone gets killed or not is a function of the environment, not of personal criminal culpability. If that weren't so, the biggest criminals in the world wouldn't all die in their beds of old age.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. I give up

You are just being obtuse.

I am not going to waste my time looking for crime stats that you will probably just label as 'inuendo'.

I have been nothing but honest and I posted links to ten articles. If that is not good enough for you, then too bad.

[Kraklen]

38. The most violent street gang in the city was in her basement?

What were the police doing in her basement without a warrant?

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. They have interviewed gang members who are now in

state prison. They used this lady's basement as a hangout. It was also obvious that something was going on in that house. I have driven by and seen the constant traffic. I have also seen the bullet holes on houses in the neighborhood and in car windows. My friend who lives nearby has been complaining about the gunfire coming from this area for a couple years now.

[jean]

2. we've got to get tasers out of the picture - every other day there's

some story of misuse and abuse of citizens with tasers.

This elderly woman is also recovering from knee surgery? The cop tasered her twice IN THE CHEST? What - was he trying to see how many times it would take to knock out her heart?

This is horrible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. The cops had dealt with this woman for years

see my post #6

[McCamy Taylor]

3. WTF! I hope she sues their sorry asses!

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Not me n/t

[getmeouttahere]

4. There are no words...

someone had a thread where they asked "are there any other bizarre headlines today"?

There are at least 20 BIZARRE headlines every day in this bizarro world of BushCo!

[Pirate Smile]

5. This is so outrageous.

"-snip-
Louise Jones (pictured, left) said it happened after she pulled up to her house near 50th and Euclid and saw a police car. She honked, and an officer got out of the vehicle.

"He said he could give me a citation ticket for honking my horn. I said it was an accident. It's not like I laid on the horn; I honked, right in front of my house," Jones said.

-snip-
Jones' husband, Fred, heard the commotion in his home of 40 years and confronted the officer. The husband and wife were both arrested and jailed. Jones was cited for misuse of a horn on a city street, and her husband was ticketed for interfering with an officer.

Police Capt. Rich Lockhart said it is the policy of the Kansas City Police Department "to use the Taser (gun) when someone is being passively resistant, refusing to obey verbal commands."

[getmeouttahere]

22. And why the citation for honking?

there would be an awful lot of people in my area getting cited if that were enforced here.

[Mairead]

36. "passively resistant, refusing to obey verbal commands"

Good thing they have the taser now, otherwise they'd have to shoot people dead with their Glocks for passive resistance.

Taser - the (mostly) non-lethal alternative to shooting dead trivial offenders and the innocent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. She was sentenced last week to probation

Her grandson, Anthony Watkins (aka Fat Tone), was also a member of the most violent street gang in KC. He was suspected of murdering a west coast rap star who was in KC last winter. The rap singer was killed in a drive by on a major highway. Watkins was murdered in Vegas in May. Police believe his murder was retaliation for the murder he most likely committed.

Not that this makes it okay to taser this lady. But the cops had been at her house dozens of times. It was a hang out for the gang her grandson belonged to. It was also a suspected drug house.

Nice to know the rest of the story, isn't it?

[Catherine Vincent]

10. You're right.

That doesn't make it okay to taser this old lady. It wasn't warranted.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Oh I agree she shouldn't have been tasered

But she isn't a sweet and innocent old lady either.

[bloom]

13. That story has nothing to do with it...

If the police tasered her for attacking them - THAT would be part of the story.

I don't see why anything that any of her kids or grandkids did should matter.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Her grandson and his gang sold drugs out of her house

If she didn't want the cops hassling her, she should have put a stop to the criminal activity in her house.

[Sequoia]

28. Mr. High and Mighty, how you go on.

She DID NOT have to be tasered! This cop would've shot her if he could. Seems to me it's those cops who are causing the trouble, harrasing the blacks as usual. Drugs, smrugs. Bet those kids can't even get a decent job in that city.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. I have repeatedly stated

throughout this thread that I agree she shouldn't have been tasered.

But she also shouldn't have allowed her grandson to let his gang use her basement as their headquarters. As I said earlier, this is considered to be the most violent street gang in KC. They are connected to dozens of murders. Several of the leaders of this gang are in prison. Some are dead. They turned this grandmother's once peaceful neighborhood into a bed of criminal activity. Neighbors who called the cops had their houses shot at in the middle of the night. This gang has terrorized this neighborhood for about 5 years now. I have a good friend who lives around the corner from this house and have personally witnessed the downfall of this area.

Grandma would not have been tasered if the cops had not been cruising her neighborhood. She would not have been tasered if she hadn't honked her horn to warn her grandson that the cops were cruising the block. She would not have been tasered if there was no criminal activity going on inside her house.

No, she shouldn't have been tasered. But there is also a lot she could have done to keep the cops out of her neighborhood and prevent them from watching her house.

I also don't think lack of decent jobs is justification for selling drugs and killing people.

[Sequoia]

43. Well, I guess you know more than I do about that place.

After living in El Lay for so long, I've seen too much police brutality towards anyone of color for no reason, just to be mean big shots. Peace.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. We have police brutality here too

Cops murdered a 13 year old kid a few years ago when he stole a car and led them on a chase. The city settled that lawsuit for several million and a couple cops lost their jobs.

Just a few weeks ago, 2 cops were fired for excessive force. They tasered a guy 4 times who was handcuffed.

I just don't think this particular story is about an innocent old lady who accidentally honked her horn.

Peace :hi:

[ninkasi]

61. I'm confused now...

When the old lady was tasered for honking, how could she have been honking to warn her grandson? Earlier, you mentioned that he was already dead. Is this a different grandson she was warning?

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. This incident with the horn and the tasering was a year ago

Last August, I believe. The grandson was murdered this past May.

[Mairead]

35. And yet the cops couldn't take the house by 'adminstrative forfeiture' ?

Sounds like the 'sold drugs out of her house' is rank BS.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. No I believe it

Lots of traffic and activity in that house. I saw that. And my friend the cop told me this house was high on their list of suspected drug houses. That's the reason the cops were cruising the neighborhood.

I am not a cop or a lawyer, but don't they have to definitively tie drug dealing to a house before they seize it? An investigation was on-going when this lady's grandson was murdered.

[Mairead]

42. "don't they have to definitively tie drug dealing to a house"

No, they don't; that's the whole point. They never have to indict, never have to take it to court, and the property can be taken even though the owner is factually innocent and the alleged (but unproven) crime was committed (if it was committed) without that owner's permission or even knowledge.

They can simply confiscate whatever it is (up to the value of $500K these days), and the owner is the one who must go to court to get it back by proving that it wasn't involved in any crime.

The forfeiture laws are a complete trashing of the Fourth and Fifth Amendments: they presume guilt and permit seizure without due process. The theory behind them is just a step or two removed from the mediaevalist lunacy of charging non-human creatures and non-living things with human crimes.



Maybe you should spend less time listening to your 'cop friend'? He's not doing anyone any favors except maybe the racists in the audience.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. My cop friend is a woman

and one of the most decent people I know. In fact, I called her when my friend who lives in this neighborhood was afraid to go out on his front porch. She went over to his house (in plain clothes and in her own car and on her own time) to talk to him and hooked him up with an anti-crime group that formed in this neighborhood because of the spike in criminal activity.

I have no idea why the house has not been confiscated. I would imagine they were still investigating when the grandson was murdered. One article I read said the cops had been getting more and more info from the gang members in prison since the rapper's murder last November.

[Mairead]

57. Thanks for clarifying, not that it's germane to the main point, namely

that your cop friend is doing nobody any favors apart from the racists.

Do you know how cops tie drugs dealing to a location? They bring in some narcs of the right color from out of town, let them infiltrate the scene, and make a buy or sale. And if that doesn't work, they endlessly roust people coming out of the house and send them to prison if they have drugs on them. And once they establish a pattern, they invoke the forfeiture laws, steal the house, the car, the whatever, and sell them.

Obviously, none of that happened with this house or it would already have been snatched and sold. Because that's how the cops do it! The fact that it hasn't been snatched and sold means the innuendo about it being Drugz Central is rubbish.

You've been working awfully hard in this thread to be a spokesperson for the cops. I have to wonder why.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. I believe the cops were doing just that when the kid was murdered

LOL - a spokesperson for cops :rofl:

I am adamantly opposed to tasering. But I just wouldn't recommend this particular story to be one we use to prove the evils of tasering. A good attorney could pick it apart in a courtroom. That's all.

Peace :hi:

[jean]

17. yes it is... but still, if she just pulled up and honked the horn - the

story made it sound like the cop was goading either her or someone in the house. Not good if he's there alone and there's a load of gansta's who might pour out of her house.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. The cops think she was warning the gang members in her house

that the cops were cruising the street. She didn't just pull up into her driveway, she was on her front porch, (as a lookout?) and went out to her car and honked the horn when she saw the cops. Her husband came out, a verbal altercation followed and the cops tasered them.

[jean]

25. thanks for the inside info - what a nest of crime

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. You are welcome

It is really a messy situation. I am one of the first ones here to speak out against tasering, and I agree this elderly woman should not have been tasered. But she also should not have allowed her grandson to run a gang and sell drugs out of her house. If she had done that, the cops would not have been there in the first place.

I feel sorry for the lady now. Her grandson was murdered a couple months ago.

[Catherine Vincent]

7. Reading this story is just pathetic.

If this is what really happened, that cop was like very anxious to use his taser. The woman was in front of her horn and explained it was an accident. The cop goes back to her house later and writes her a ticket for that, I don't blame her for getting upset. That was ridiculous.

Did you see the poll asking if it was the right thing to do? 885 voted that it was. What a crock of sh!t!

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. It was no accidental honking

After reading many articles about this and talking to my friend the cop who knows all about this family, I believe she was most likely warning the gang members in her basement that the cops were in the neighborhood.

[indepat]

8. Welcome to Amerika

[jody]

16. The article suggests the taser was used as a conventional "stun gun" and

not to fire a projectile.

One type of stun gun:



A taser is another type of stun gun:

[Obamarama]

30. If KCMO Police hadn't failed to respond to gay bashing I might question

A Kansas City lesbian was beaten in the head with a baseball bat, and when it was phoned into 911 and reported as a gay hate crime, the KCMO police took half an hour to respond.

I'd be more apt to lean toward giving them a little more benefit of doubt on this issue, but I'm really left wondering what the hell the police are doing in KCMO.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. I agree

That gay bashing also got about 1/10 of the press coverage this tasering incident did. :cry:

[WI_DEM]

39. Absolutely outrageous

My God! I've accidentally honked a horn too. That cop couldn't accept that explanation? And why did he go back to her house? it must have pissed him off that he didn't have enough time to give this black woman a ticket that he just had to make sure he did it so he could feel like a big racist scum. He should be kicked off the force and charged with assault.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Read my posts in this thread

I don't think the horn honking was accidental.

[Mairead]

48. Your posts in this thread are solid innuendo.

Given that the cops never admit error, I don't think what they have to say about a situation constitutes 'information' within the meaning of the Act.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. My posts are based on these articles I linked

and what the cops and my friend who lives in the area have told me. If I couldn't back it up, I wouldn't have posted it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4242474&mesg_id=4243044

[jody]

52. Thanks for your contribution. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. You are welcome n/t

[Mairead]

53. But you haven't 'backed it up' -- there's no substance, it's all innuendo

There is nothing to tie that woman or her husband to any wrongdoing. It's all speculation and 'people believe' and 'police allege' and rubbish like that.

[Kraklen]

54. Of course we have to realize...

that she's got the most violent gang in the city living in her basement.

Just look at her.

[Mairead]

68. I was just thinking about that

Either she's got a helluva big cellar, or that's an awfully small gang.

[Kraklen]

71. They're small but they're wiry.

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Yes, too bad I never took pictures

of the criminal activity I personally witnessed. :eyes:

[stevans_41902]

63. Thanks for the background info proud2blib - while i dont think the

tasering should have happened in the first place, i dont think this lady is as innocent as some are making her out to be. I think you know your lady cop friend better than anyone on this forum, and if you say that she is an open minded person who is giving you legit info I think we should be open to hearing why the cops might have been there in the first place. I'm not saying that black people are not unfairly targeted, just that there may be more info behind this story than a sweet lady minding her own business.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. Thank you

There are so many unjust tasering stories, we don't need this one. That is the only point I have been trying to make here.

[Mairead]

67. Yes, too bad. Then you might, unlike now, have something.

A year or so ago, over in Dennis Kucinich's fora, there was a cap-libber who swore that, some years earlier, he had personally witnessed a Black woman in a fur coat buy $600 worth of prime steaks, roasts, and similar plus another $100-200 in liquor and all sorts of other high-price goodies, pay for them with food stamps, and have them loaded into her brand-new Cadillac, which she then drove off.

Several of us gently suggested to him various reasons why his story didn't seem credible (e.g., meat markets wouldn't have had $600 worth of expensive cuts of meat available for purchase) or could be accounted for more reasonably in other ways, but he continued to assert that he'd seen it.

Eventually I got fed up and pointed out to him, with cite, that his story was a re-telling almost word-for-word of Reagan's discredited Welfare Queen fable -- Black woman, fur coat, Caddie, and massive, ritzy purchases paid with food stamps. Do you think it made any difference to him? Nope. He seemed to feel that we should all immediately accept his assertions as evidence, and became quite angry and sullen when we didn't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. And what would that story have to do with this one?

You are really starting to piss me off.

I have been nothing but honest and you have been nothing but argumentative. And unlike this ridiculous little story you just mentioned, I posted links to back up most of what I said.

Don't bother to reply. I am putting you on ignore.

[Mairead]

74. The relevance is that you expect us to accept innuendo as evidence

just as he expected us to accept his assertion as evidence.

It doesn't work that way.

[Kraklen]

70. Yes.

Maybe if you had photographic proof of criminal activity I might believe you.

And by "criminal activity" I don't mean young, black, and wearing baggy shorts.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. How about bullet holes in houses and cars?

Would that be proof or would you want me to gather gunpowder residue from around the holes?

[Kraklen]

73. What about bullet holes in houses and cars.

The only thing that's proof of is that it's a bad neighborhood.

Given that the cops are going around assaulting people they could have been the ones who shot it up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. Is there a full moon or something?

I would think that if the cops were shooting up the neighborhood my friend who lives there would have told me. I also imagine the local media would have reported this. There have been several bad cop stories here lately and I can't imagine the media ignoring one about cops shooting up neighborhoods.

I am done with this debate. It has gone beyond silly.

[Kraklen]

76. Well we know the cops are bad.

The OP proves it. What you've failed to show is that this woman did anything to deserve it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. No she did not deserve to be tasered

I believe I said that many times.

But let's review the facts. She was sitting on her front porch. A cop drove by. She walked out to the driveway, got into her car and honked the horn. Her husband came outside. The cop heard her horn and stopped in front of her house. As soon as the first cop got out of his car, the woman and her husband started yelling at him. The cop called for back up. The woman and her husband continued to yell at the cops. The cops thought the husband had a gun in his hand. They (unjustly) tasered the woman. And they gave her a ticket for honking her horn.

From the first time I heard this story a year ago I have never understood why she and her husband were yelling at the cops. I also think that if there was really nothing to this incident, a judge would never have sentenced her.

[SouthernDem2004]

79. Just a little aside about the horn honk...

It was probably used to signal the people selling dope in the house or area that the Police were in the area. That is a common reason for citing for such an offense.