Dr. Atkins weighed 258lbs when he died?

[smbolisnch]

This was posted in an LBN thread about the Atkins bankruptcy. I can't believe it is the first I had heard of this.

So much for that "diet".

[Fiona]

1. There's more to the story

he was hospitalized, on strong steroids to deal with a severe head injury.

Have you seen how extreme the swelling and water-retention can be from large amounts of steroids?

[smbolisnch]

5. Yes I have.

And it would not be enough to have him considered obese.

Are you seriously suggesting that the man was carrying over 60 pounds of water weight?

[Fiona]

12. In a sense, yes

Do you not think Jerry Lewis is carrying 60 extra pounds in that pic?

[smbolisnch]

15. I don't think he put it on in a matter of days

as Atkins would have had to.

[Fiona]

23. ok...

He was hospitalized for 9 days. Between steroids, IV fluids and organ failure causing fluid retention, I think it's quite possible.

I watched an episode of SuperSurgery called 200 lb. tumor. A woman was hospitalized to have, obviously, an enormous tumor removed. Over one day they put her on IV and some drugs that caused swelling and she was unrecognizable. Her eyes were almost swollen shut. That makes me think it can happen pretty quickly.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

202. I think you are right. He certainly could have gained enormous amounts

of weight from steroids, and very quickly too. More importantly, he may have had a statue which was fit at that weight, or near it. Personally, though, I don't trust any diet that limits the amount of fresh fruits and vegetables you can eat. That just isn't right.

[Bark Bark Bark]

214. Misinformation about Atkins--Corrected Here

There is a two-week period starting the diet off wherein all forms of sugar are severely limited; this is the "no-bread no-fruit" part that gets people who don't have a clue what they're talking about screaming about how "bad" it is.

After that two-week phase, the dieter begins re-introducing fruit (and OTHER carb sources) into the diet, up a "ladder" until the dieter reaches the point that weight loss stops or reverses. In other words, you'll be eating strawberries again soon, perhaps even certain breads--but pizza crust is unlikely, unless you fall off the wagon (been there, done that).

Vegetables are encouraged throughout--with the exception of the ones heavily loaded with carbs such as potatoes and carrots. The books explain the system, where fruits and veggies that give you more "bang for the carb" are preferred over the ones that offer more starch and sugar than anything else.

In the joint press conference held on Wednesday, January 12, HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson and USDA Secretary Ann Veneman announced the release of these guidelines. The secretaries noted that this revision was the “most rigorous” and contained more scientific evidence than any other report in the past. These guidelines will ultimately lead to a new U.S. Food Guide Pyramid or similar representation.

At the press conference, Veneman said, "...if you really look at these diets, whether it is Atkins or South Beach..., and if you go further than just the first two weeks, and look at the maintenance program in many of these programs, they are very consistent in many ways with the dietary guidelines—eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, eat whole grains, keep fat low and more and more you will see these very consistent messages coming out of the popular diet programs. And I think that the consumer is searching for the answer, as Secretary Thompson said, ‘the answer isn’t in a pill. It is how you make your food choices and how you exercise.’”

The text above is quoted from Atkins.com, but easily Googled for confirmation. (Atkins also insists on the importance of daily exercise.)

This is the worst sort of thread. It began when someone took a piece of anecdotal information and didn't bother to look into it before laying out some snark based on pure ignorance. It's as dumb as saying the Atkins Diet must not work because the Atkins company was mismanaged into bankruptcy. The airline I work for is in bankruptcy--yet the concept of manned flight remains sound.

[LeftyMom]

22. I rather doubt he had 7.2 extra gallons of water weight.

From my comments on the LBN thread:

Dr. Robert Atkins was 258 lbs at the time of his death. According to his postmortem examination records he was 6 feet tall. That's a BMI of 35. 25 is officially overweight and 30 is considered obese.

Yes I know that his devotees (if he still has any?) say that sixty pounds of that was waterweight. Anybody who really believes he had 7.2 gallons of excess water in his body is an idiot. That's twice the weight wain of a typical pregnancy- if he'd gained that much water in two weeks he'd have ruptured! Even if he was carrying 60 lbs of water, that puts his BMI prior to his injury at 26.9, meaning the man who was the country's most prominent diet guru was overweight.

Why anybody used a diet that didn't even work for it's founder (BTW, he also had a myocardial infarction aka a heart attack- did the heart attack cause his fall and head injury or vice versa?) is beyond me. That half the country thought that the most fattening part of a triple bacon cheeseburger is the bun just proves that Americans are the most gullible people on the planet.

[Fiona]

27. Where did you hear

he had a heart attack?

He did have a viral heart infection in the past, but as far as I know, he never had a heart attack, and I've never heard his fall linked to his heart. He slipped on ice.

on edit:

Downthread is a link to Snopes, which says his medical records showed him to weigh 195 lbs when admitted to the hospital 9 days before his death.

So yes, he had a lot of water weight. I don't know how much in gallons, though.

[jobycom]

29. He had a heart attack while in the coma. As for his weight gain, it's

already been posted down-thread, from Snopes. He weighed 195 when he fell, according to medical records.

On edit: heart attacks are not unusual after extreme trauma.

[LeftyMom]

34. Even if one honestly believes that he put on 7 gallons of water weight

His BMI would have been 26.something prior to the accident.

The diet guru was overwight.

[jobycom]

44. I'm not arguing whether he was "overweight" or what his BMI was

I don't even know what a BMI is, aside from what the initials stand for. The post asked if he was 258 pounds when he died. Yes, he was, but he was 195 pounds when he fell. Whatever you want to make of that weight, I don't know, nor care much. My point wasn't whether he was a perfect specimen of health. It was simply that he gained a lot of weight while in a coma.

You seem to have some ax to grind. I have none. I'm just stating facts.

[Touchdown]

105. It's a standard thought up by skinny doctors.

The crusaders (most of which do not really understand his diet and do nothing but reduce it to a "Bacon cheeseburger without the bun" have very little knowledge of how different body types evolved from cavemen...who did not have processed grains as a daily staple. In terms of evolution, we still are closer to caveman physiology than the Wonder bread political lobby would wish us to be. Everybody is supposed to be an ectomorph (skinny twerp). Mesomorphs (perfect men) and Endomorphs (prone to getting fat, but easily builds muscle) don't really exist according to US health standards. 5'11" should be 165lbs. PERIOD!

Most of these people have been prayoing for him to have a heart attack for 35 years, just so they can rub it in his face. He cheated them out of his because he slipped on the ice and cracked his head open. Now they're trying anything and everything to discredit him.

It reminds me of another crusade people are on to. Say a chemichal bomb goes off in the NY subway. Everybody is choking and coughing because of the gas...except the smokers. They're not coughing because of the poison gas, it's the cigarettes that's making them cough.:eyes:

[sendero]

219. I could care less about..

... Atkins' diet, but BMI is a bad joke, and anyone who think it measures ANYTHING relevant needs to do some study.

The ONLY simple number that is a remotely accurate assessment of a person's fitness is bodyfat percentage. BMI is useless, it does not take muscle mass into account.

[LeftyMom]

30. The documents on The Smoking Gun

there's a notation that he'd had a MI. MI=myocardial infarction.

It's all in doctor scrawl, so I'm not surprised you missed it if you looked over the TSG documents.

It was briefly news when he died, but not long. Appparently the big meat and dairy conglomerates have more advertising dollars, and thus more pull with the corporate media, than say the celery producers of america or the potato council or whatever. Who knew??? :shrug:

[Heddi]

61. So he went from 195 to 257 in NINE DAYS?

Surely you can't believe that is NORMAL weight gain?????

I'm "only" a nursing student, but I have NEVER heard of someone gaining SIXTY TWO POUNDS in 9 days.

Can't you say that's a bit odd??

BTW - 62 pounds is 7.34 gallons of water.

He would have died for a variety of reasons from just having that much water weight. His cells would have burst (because his extracellular fluid would have been hypertonic). His kidneys and liver would have failed. A human does not have the internal capacity to hold that much water even if it were in the form of ascites (malignant fluid that builds up in the abdominal cavity)---and that much ascites ain't gonna form in 9 days.

NO way this is purely all 'water weight'. He would have been dead BECAUSE of the excess water in his system, not for the reason they listed.

[smbolisnch]

62. That's what I said. I just don't buy it.

I am a respiratory student and I have not heard of anything so drastic either. I could be wrong, but I am very doubtful.

[Heddi]

63. I've seen TONS of fluid imbalances

but something like that should be in the record books. It's unheard of.

Even though this isn't ascites, when I worked in cancer medicine, the LARGEST amount of ascites I ever saw was about 4 liters, and that's in an expandable abdominal cavity and something that happens over MONTHS and YEARS--no way 9 days.

They must have had his IV fucking drip rate at 100,000 drips per minute. He would have had to additionally had kidney failure for that fluid to be allowed to build up---his metabolic systems would have kicked in and that excess fluid would have been turned into urine, saliva, mucous....I mean, his urine output would have been astounding.

7.34 gallons in 9 days is the eqivalent of gaining .82 gallons of water PER DAY.

No way. His body would have shut down after the 2nd day of that much retained fluid.

It
just
ain't
happening

[Horse with no Name]

145. Not to burst a bubble

but I read another post of yours that said you are a nursing student. You have done research, which is always excellent.
I have almost 20 years of critical care nursing under my belt in major US hospitals (with 5 years in neurosurgical trauma ICU) and I am telling you...this isn't uncommon. Which is probably the reason that you aren't finding it as an anomaly in online journals--most practitioners in critical settings see it often. Most of the time it can be reversed fairly easily with diuretics and sometimes using albumin to chase the extracellular fluid back into the cells.
However, this man was in multiorgan system failure--which included kidney failure and congestive heart failure. The fluid had nowhere else to go except into the tissues.
Now--I'm not an apologist for the Atkins diet...I find it kind of telling that the family wouldn't allow an autopsy of this man--they would only allow for an external exam.
Would love to have seen first hand what his heart and arteries looked like--if nothing but for information of what the Atkins diet would do for someone.

[LostinVA]

217. My mom and sisters are nurses

And I asked them about this when it happened. They have both seen weight gains like this in the hospital, in both cardiac and cancer patients, as well as after surgery from certain meds. So yeah, it can happen.

And, the Atkins Diet, done right, is a Diabetics diet, and there's nothing wrong with it. IF DONE RIGHT. I am hypoglycemic, and do a modified version -- I eat more grain carbs because I'm active. Since I started doing it, I haven't had ONE "shaky" episode.Also, you shouldn't eat all of that fatty protein and dairy... you should be eating chicken and fish and turkey. I don't do it to lose weight.

There's nothing wrong with cutting out most sugar and "white carbs" from your diet. Except for pasta. There si no such thing as good whole wheat pasta. Sorry.

[LeftyMom]

64. Thanks for the medical know-how

I kinda figured as much.

[Heddi]

67. I'm looking now online to every medical and nursing journal I have

subscriptions for and there are NO documented cases of someone gaining 62 POUNDS IN NINE DAYS, all of it water weight. NO way. The body CAN NOT handle that much water.

Simply put, if you had that much water weight in such a short amount of time, your body would basically drown in its own fluids. Your lungs would be so full of mucous you would suffocate. Each cell in your body would burst. Your kidnesy would fail. Your liver would fail. Your heart would burst.

Not happening. No way.

If this is truly the case, I cannot believe it is not in medical journals as some first-case-scenario thing.

[LeftyMom]

70. I don't doubt it

It sounded fishy to me from the get go. I've had relatives on steroids, recovering from surgery, etc. I know what edema look like and does to people and I've never heard of anybody gaining 60 lbs of fluid.

I figured systems would start giving out before that point.

[Heddi]

73. well, yeah

he'd die of hypernatremia before he died of a myocardial infarction.

Hypernatremia is what is also commonly known as "Water intoxication". It happens to runners and athletes all the time. You run run run, sweat off water AND sodium, and just replace it with water, and you throw your whole fluid and electrolyte balance out of whack. You need certain amounts of water, sodium, and potassium in your body. If you sweat out tons of sodium (which Dr. Atkins wasn't doing at the rate that a marathon runner was), and only replace it with water, you throw off your sodium and potassium balance--two of THE most essential elecrolytes in your body. You can't 'function' without them.

Had he been gaining this much weight over a 9 day period, he would NOT have last past day one or two, maybe three. NO way. NO way. No way he lasted 9 days, gaining AND retaining nearly a gallon of water. NO way.

Those who say otherwise have not even the basic CUROSRY knowledge of human anatomy and physiology that is taught in every community college in this nation.

[Horse with no Name]

147. I have a little more than a cursory knowledge

of human a&p.
Hopefully with some experience under your belt, AFTER you get a license to practice, you will learn to temper your arguments with more than what you can find in online journals.
I have noticed that an internist (a specialized physician) has also put his .02 in this argument that this isn't uncommon and he has just released someone after a 40 lb diuresis.
I have had quite a bit of experience and have seen it as well.
It's not intelligent as a student to continue an argument where seasoned professionals have debunked what you are telling people. In fact, it CAN be dangerous.
Good luck to you.

[LostinVA]

218. Yes, they can

My sister works in a cardiac ward, and my mom worked in a cancer ward for many, many years, as well as peds and rehab. They BOTH said they have seen this percentage of water weight gain in patients, esp. my sister. She said sometimes family members literally can't recognize their relatives.

I doubt the hospital lied.

[bmbmd]

94. I am only an Internist

but sixty pounds of fluid retention in a premorbid brain injured patient on steroids is not that uncommon. I disharged a patient this week after a forty pound plus diuresis.

[jobycom]

97. Everyone on this chain has read post #45, right?

Argue with him if y'all are so sure.

[Horse with no Name]

162. ..."only an internist"

hehe. I guess all of our experience isn't taken into consideration, yet a nursing student is considered the expert in this thread. Go figure...
BTW--I'm just east of you. I see you are from Denison. TMC?

[Horse with no Name]

45. It can happen mom

Seen it with my own eyes...when the kidneys fail and the heart is failing...fluid has nowhere to go except into the tissue. The autopsy clearly states that there was prominent edema (different than obesity).
An average adult urinates 1.5 liters per day.
In kidney failure you don't urinate so that fluid would be retained in the tissues.
1.5 liters over a 9 day period is 13.5 liters, which is a little over 3 1/2 gallons. Then add in IV fluids...also consider with head injuries they generally will give a potent osmotic diuretic called Mannitol (side effects: Adverse reactions more commonly reported during or after the infusion of mannitol include: Pulmonary congestion, fluid and electrolyte imbalance, acidosis, electrolyte loss, dryness of mouth, thirst, marked diuresis, urinary retention, edema, headache, blurred vision, convulsions, nausea, vomiting, rhinitis, arm pain, skin necrosis, thrombophlebitis, chills, dizziness, urticaria, dehydration, hypotension, tachycardia, fever and angina-like chest pains.), which will displace fluid from intracellular to extracellular. They also give steroids which can puff you up.
Given all of the variables, the weight gain isn't as extraordinary as you might initially think

[October]

126. Watched it happen to my mom

She had a stroke after elective heart surgery...was put into a drug-induced coma. She was already overweight...but I didn't even know if I was really looking at my own mother in that bed!!! I think they said she'd gained 45 pounds...and this was the day after her surgery!!! It was nuts to me, but the nurses in CICU were telling me that's what happens. I searched my mother's face for something familiar, and saw the old familiar scar near her lower lip -- otherwise, I wouldn't have believe that was even her.

[geek tragedy]

104. BMI is a bogus measurement of obesity.

According to his BMI, Shaquille O'Neal is obese.

[LeftyMom]

109. Yes, it doesn't work well for athletes

Dr Atkins on the other hand, was neither an athlete of some sort not seven feet tall. He was right about the height of the typical male and well within the range of normal human shapes and sizes where BMI is a useful tool.

[geek tragedy]

110. Probably. But, I'd have much more faith in a specific study

of body composition rather than an abstract calculation.

[LeftyMom]

111. Certainly that would be better

It is the federal standard for determining overwight or obesity but I agree it needs to be applied with common sense as it doesn't work in every case.

[sendero]

220. Exactly..

... BMI is a USELESS number, and when people start throwing it around it says to me "I don't know much about this stuff".

If everyone had the same bodyfat percentage, BMI would mean something. They don't so it doesn't.

People with a well developed muscle mass will automatically have a worse BMI, and people who are nothing but skin, bones, and fat will have a better one.

Hardly a useful measurement of anything.

[KurtNYC]

129. The Atkins diet does work

Maybe the pop hear-what-you-want-to-hear version doesn't work but the real Atkins diet does work. It is NOT how many calories you eat but what your body does with them that counts the most.

Look what the "gullible" researchers at Harvard found out:

A Harvard School of Public Health study may stand dieting wisdom on its head, after low-carbohydrate dieters lost more weight than low-fat dieters despite eating 25,000 extra calories over a 12-week study period.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.23/03-lowcarb.html

To fatten beef cattle, they feed them high fructose corn. The same stuff that is in hamburger buns (and soda).

[libnnc]

130. It's worked for me for over 2 years.

I lost 40 pounds. I was a size 18. I'm a 10/12 now. I'm in the "maintenence" phase of the diet. I cheat a little now and then, but back on the wagon I go. I eat bacon and eggs most every morning and a meat and something green for dinner.

No 'taters. No sugar. No pasta. No rice. No white bread.

I feel like a million bucks and my family says I've never looked better.

It's worked wonders for me. I say a little thanks to Dr. Atkins every time I look in the mirror.

:shrug:

[Richard Steele]

6. Wow, Shatner's really let himself go!

[ohio_liberal]

10. LOL

That's Jerry Lewis

[Richard Steele]

25. THANKS. I honestly didn't recognize him.

Although I _was_ pretty sure it wasn't really Shatner....

[ohio_liberal]

31. I figured ...

It was funny as hell. Thanks for the chuckle.

[Richard Steele]

48. Yeah, Shatner is always good for the "cheap shot".

I won't make fun of Jerry Lewis though.
By all accounts, he was always a major JERK also...
but using his fame to raise money for sick kids for all those years earns him just a bit of respect from me.

[jobycom]

2. The story, IIRC, was that he gained it while in a coma

Apparently his body began shutting down, and swelled up with fluids, or something along those lines. His widow claimed he was in good shape when he fell.

That's from memory, defer to anyone with better info than me.

[smbolisnch]

7. What about this?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/01/23/atkins.bloomberg.ap/

[jobycom]

14. I don't see anything in the article

one way or the other.

[noamnety]

16. Yep, according to snopes

"Thanks to his death certificate (as displayed at The Smoking Gun), we know Atkins was 258 pounds at the time of his death. Yet according to a copy of his medical records, as turned over to USA Today by the diet guru's widow, Atkins weighed 195 pounds upon admission to the hospital 8 April 2003 following his fall. He died on 17 April 2003 after having been in a coma for more than a week. "

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

[jobycom]

18. Thanks.

[tuvor]

3. Seems to be working for me.

Maybe the good doctor just said "aw, to hell with it" one day...?

[silverweb]

4. "Confidential?"

Why is the "confidential" Medical Examiner's report on this man posted on the internet?

Does anyone know?

[smbolisnch]

8. From The Smoking Gun.

eom

[silverweb]

19. Ah, sent "in error"...

...to an anti-Atkins physician in Nebraska, according to the Smoking Gun. Too bad it didn't end there.

I feel very strongly about medical privacy issues and this really pisses me off.

[Eugene]

9. He was reported to weigh 180 lbs when he fell.

[Liberal In Texas]

11. I don't normally click on stuff like this....but TAKE IT TO THE LOUNGE...

Can I screech louder...?

This is not appropriate.

[smbolisnch]

13. Why is it not appropriate?

[noamnety]

21. because of DU rules

"Posts that are unrelated to politics or public policy (such as pop culture, entertainment, sports, or celebrity news) belong in the Lounge, in the relevant Non-Political Forums, or in the appropriate DU Groups."

[ohio_liberal]

24. Well damn

Hit the alert button then. The OP can't move it herself :shrug:

[smbolisnch]

26. Does talking about Jenna Bush allegedly"dry humping"

some guy belong in the lounge? cause I didn't see you jump all over that one. :shrug:
I was just looking for some debate on the issue, I find it interesting, Couldn't you just ignore the thread?

[ohio_liberal]

33. Jenna's been dry humping?

Damn I missed that one.

[smbolisnch]

35. Ha-Allegedly.

Here you go.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4246686

[ohio_liberal]

38. I'm trying to remember if I ever humped someone in public

I can't recall. I never did try the Atkins died though. That I do remember.

[smbolisnch]

40. Hey, who hasn't?

:evilgrin::rofl:

[ohio_liberal]

41. And you younger folks know without a doubt

That dry humping these days is just called dancing. :D

[smbolisnch]

43. Actually, I think they call it freaking.

What are you, old or something? :shrug:
;)

[ohio_liberal]

47. 37

Old enough that if I did it, it would just look wrong

[smbolisnch]

50. *snort*

:silly:

[LeftyMom]

68. I'm only 24 and I'd look like a fool

then I'd dislocate a hip or something.

[smbolisnch]

74. lol

:rofl:

[shockra]

39. All you have to do is mention PETA and it becomes political.

He should have listened to PETA. :cry:

[smbolisnch]

42. Some people just feel threatened by PETA I think.

Why, I don't know. I am proud to be a member, personally.

[jobycom]

46. I hate the evil bastards

And I'm a vegetarian.

Now it's a political thread. :woohoo:

[smbolisnch]

49. I don't believe you.

As a veggie, of course you are joking. Riiiight? ;)
At least we are allowed to stay in GD now.
Now, I am truly humbled. :eyes:

[jobycom]

53. Actually, no

I consider them evil. The kid whose arm was bitten off lived near my home town in Mississippi. There "Would you give your right arm to know why sharks attack humans?" billboard on the beach where he was attacked while he was still lying in the hospital in a coma was the final straw. Not the first, but the final. I liked them at first. But their whole schtick is right-wing style hate-filled attacks on anyone who disagrees with them. It goes against every reason I'm a liberal.

So no, I'm not kidding, I despise them. Their message is good, but their method is reprehensible.

[smbolisnch]

55. I don't recall this incident, so I won't comment on it.

But while PETA's methods may be extreme. so are the conditions that the animals who they are speaking for live in.

[jobycom]

57. Iraq was pretty bad, didn't justify invading it.

Jesse Arbogast was the kid's name. Here's a story about his rescue (It was the beginning of the shark frenzy in 2001).

http://www.redcross.org/news/hs/cpraed/020524award.html

Here's an article that mentions the billboard in passing, along with other things.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=105001672

And no, their methods are not justified, and they just piss off non-vegetarians, anyway. Half the crap I put up with as a vegetarian comes from people taking their hatred of PETA out on me. Dirty organization. Animals would be better off without them. They amuse the choir, and anger everyone else.

[smbolisnch]

58. Center for Consumer Freedom?

Please see my thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4197900

That is a Corporate lobbying group, definitely not a great progressive source.

[jobycom]

95. It was just the first link I found to reference to story

When it first happened, it was even on PETA's web page. There's no doubt it's true.

[smbolisnch]

96. I don't deny it's true, I just think that's a horrid corporation.

Just sayin.....

[jobycom]

100. You're probably right, then.

I wasn't familiar with it, just found it on Google. I apologize to the board for dropping filth on our fairly pristine DU floors. :-)

[smbolisnch]

101. !

:spank::spank::spank::spank::spank::spank:

[ohio_liberal]

51. Well let me give you a...

^5

[HuckleB]

121. This is about the diet industry.

It doesn't get much more political than that.

[jobycom]

20. GD cops!

Bad night, Lib?

[Lex]

17. His doctor said he was full of fluids from the steriods they gave him

to reduce the swelling from the infection that eventually killed him.

[Horse with no Name]

28. His heart and kidneys had shut down causing alot of edema

from the report you have submitted:

extremities:
Lower: without palpable fractures, prominent edema, especially knees
genitalia: circumcised, scrotal edema (then it looks like it says testes ...can't decipher the rest

It's not unusual for someone with this much edema to pack an extra 60 lbs or so. Scrotal edema is indicative of the amount of "water" weight this man was carrying...since you generally don't see marked scrotal edema unless it is severe.

[Gabi Hayes]

32. Who fucking CARES?????

buh bye

[smbolisnch]

36. Apparently you do or you would not have posted here.

Right? :shrug:

[jobycom]

37. Well, with 31 posts before yours, somebody does.

Geeze.

[Liberal In Texas]

52. 310 posts. n/t

[jobycom]

54. ?Huh? Thread will never get that long.

[smbolisnch]

56. What do you mean 310 posts?

:shrug:

[Skittles]

59. whatever

I'm just glad that diet fad is over for now - people finally waking up - but fear not, it will be back in our lifetimes.

[smbolisnch]

60. Oh I don't doubt that.

I just can't imagine that people actually buy that it is good for them.
Just because you weigh less in no way indicative of good health. Hell, I could create a heroin habit and lose 30 pounds but that won't mean I am healthy. :shrug:

[Heddi]

65. Remember the Grapefruit diet? The Cabbage Soup diet?

the "HEart Attack Diet"? The TUna Fish Sandwich diet?

All bullshit.

Basically, starving yourself or shitting yourself to thinness. I tried the cabbage soup diet. Deal was, you had to eat cabbage soup for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. OH yeah, the weight came off but I was also on the toilet four hours a day.

As soon as you stop, naturally, the weight comes back on.

Heart Attack Diet is aptly named--some stupid shit like eat 2 saltines and either a hard boiled egg or can of tuna for breakfast, same for lunch, same for dinner but this time you got peanut butter and toast instead of saltines.

Yeah. People can just stay on THAT bland diet for YEARS and YEARS :eyes:

[smbolisnch]

66. Yuck.

That sounds nasty. :puke:
The things people do to themselves to be thin :(

[Heddi]

69. It's because of society's pressures, I believe

I'm overweight for my age and height. I've weighed less, I've weighed more.

I've tried diet (as in fad)
I've tried diet (as in healthy eating)
I've tried exercise (aerobic & muscle training)

I have come to the conclusion that, for whatever reason, my body is the weight it's supposed to be and while I can change it in the short term, long term I'm going to go back to this weight.

I'm happy with myself and knowledgeable enough about health to realize that as long as I"m healthy but fat, it's okay.

I wish everyone could be so enclined to not damage their bodies (many times irreversably) with such disgusting "remedies".

I'm no vegetarian, but I found the Atkins diet to be so vulgar and gluttonous that I would never consider it. I cannot abide by a diet that actively encourages participants to eat as much fat-laden garbage and shun fresh fruits and vegetables because they happen to have "Carbs".

I'd rather have a bowl full of broccolli than a steaming hot plate of fatburger with bacon and cheese....nutritionally, that just don't make a whole lotta sense.

[smbolisnch]

75. Hmmmm, fresh fruit / saturated fat loaded with pus filled cheese

Tough choice ;)
And yes, everyone's body is different. There is absolutely no one size fits all plan.

[Heddi]

79. I call my husband and I "Mr & Mrs. Jack Spratt"

he's tall, thin, and can eat like a horse and gain NO weight.

There have been times on the weekend where we may snack for lunch and snack for dinner, but don't have actual sit-down meals.

In those weekends, he's actually LOST weight.

Has been 5'10 and 125 since he hit puberty. He's 32 now.

Me...oi vey. I look at food and my pants feel tight. I'm short and squat and a little punkin with legs, basically :)

He's tried to gain weight, and can't do it.

I've tried to lose weight, and can't do it.

You're right. There IS no one-size fits all plan. Painfully, though, many people can't avoid the media and society bombardment of the 'PERFECT' Body.

I recently did a talk with a bunch of 7th graders as part of nursing school. I talked to them about bulimia and anorexia. One of the stats I found is that the average model weighs less than like 90% of the population...hello??!?!? They are NOT normal. NOt to say that a model is somehow unnormal, but more people DON'T have that body type than do. Why try to achieve the unachievable?

One of the big points in my talk is that perfection is NOT reality. I hope they got the message. THey're at the most vunerable age range to acquire eating disorders and poor body image. I know I was when I was that age, and it took me nearly a decade and a half to re-work my brain's thinking about health, nutrition and 'normal' (a little pre-nursing A&P helped out too)

[smbolisnch]

83. I am reading a book

on feminism and politics, and there was a chapter about media images and the pressures on young girls. There was a study done, and I am foggy on this....I think it was Fiji. After American television was introduced the eating disorders in young women jumped by leaps and bounds. Really sad.

And, I love this statemet - "Me...oi vey. I look at food and my pants feel tight" :rofl:

[Heddi]

89. I've heard of that study

and it was either Fiji or Tahiti.

Previous to American Media influence, it was considered "healthy" for a woman to be what we consider to be overweight.

Once American Media images began to flood in, they DID have an epidemic of eating disorders.

Lemme look for that

Here it is. You're right. It is Fiji:

http://www.hms.harvard.edu/news/releases/599bodyimage.html

Sharp Rise in Eating Disorders in Fiji Follows Arrival of TV
After Three Years of Western Programming, Five Times as Many Teenage Girls Report Vomiting to Control Weight
BOSTON--May 17, 1999--A dramatic increase in disordered eating among teenage girls in the Pacific island nation of Fiji may be linked to the recent introduction of TV, Harvard Medical School researchers report.

The sudden infusion of Western cultural images and values through TV appears to be changing the way Fijian girls view themselves and their bodies, says Anne Becker, director of research at the Harvard Eating Disorders Center, assistant professor of medical anthropology at HMS, and assistant professor of psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital. The result is a sharp rise in indicators of disordered eating, such as induced vomiting. Becker, who has studied eating habits in Fiji since 1988, conducted the study with research assistant Rebecca Burwell and presents preliminary findings May 19 at the American Psychiatric Association annual meeting in Washington, D.C.

Eating disorders, including anorexia and bulimia, are most common in industrialized Western countries, and epidemiologic data suggest that culture plays a central role. But Becker says she knows of no published studies that have used ethnographic and survey data collected over time to document the onset of disordered eating amid cultural change.

In her 1998 survey, taken 38 months after TV came to Nadroga, Fiji, 15 percent of girls, aged 17 on average, reported that they had vomited to control weight. By contrast, only 3 percent reported this behavior in 1995, just after TV was introduced. In addition, the proportion of schoolgirls who scored high on a test indicating risk for disordered eating was 29 percent in 1998 and 13 percent in 1995.

In 1998, 74 percent of the Fijian girls reported feeling "too big or fat" at least sometimes. Those who watched TV at least 3 nights per week were 50 percent more likely than others to see themselves as too fat, and 30 percent more likely to diet, although the more frequent TV watchers were not more overweight. And 62 percent of Fijian high school girls in 1998 reported dieting in the past month, a proportion comparable to or even higher than reported in American samples.

Fiji has only one TV channel, which broadcasts mostly American, Australian, and British programs. Favorites include Seinfeld, ER, Melrose Place, and Xena, Warrior Princess.

Traditionally, Fijians have preferred robust body shapes for both men and women, reflecting the importance placed on generous feeding and voracious eating.

---

Hey! America's Great! Look at what wonders we've introduced to the world :eyes:

[smbolisnch]

90. Yes that's it!!

I am so tired that I didn't look it up. You got it. It is a startling reminder of what we are allowing to happen to our youth.

Exhibit A:

Two super cute girls, starving themselves.

[Skittles]

77. I try to get people to focus on being healthy, not "thin"

there are a lot of thin folk who are FAR from healthy

[Bouncy Ball]

195. You know, you hit on a point I rarely hear mentioned.

I did Atkins, but I should have listened to my gut instincts which said "RUN!" Any diet that says NO fruit for x number of days naturally sets off an alarm for me. Fruit is GOOD for you. Vegetables are GOOD for you. No eating potatoes day in and day out wouldn't be good, but hell, it'd be preferable to eating hot dogs every day!

I became vegetarian after Atkins caused my cholesterol to shoot up to dangerous levels. My cholesterol is lower than it ever has been now. And without medication. I'm loving it!

[Skittles]

76. I'm having real success getting my friends to do what is right

try to eat healthy most (I do leave room for the occasional treat) of the time (not hard because deep down most people know what they should eat and what they should not eat) and exercise - A LOT. And do it as a LIFESTYLE. It works, it really does - it takes time and effort and commitment but it really does work.

[Heddi]

81. completely correct

I hate that the word "Diet" has been changed from meaning "anything you eat" to "starving yourself with unpalatable food"

I mean, techincally if you ate nothing but cheetoz, that would be your "diet".

Healthy eating, eating in moderation, and moderate exercise are the keys to healthy living and weight loss and bone and muscle building.

Why starve yourself, or eat a diet of orange juice and boiled eggs? WHO CAN STAY ON THAT SHIT?????

My mom did the "shake" diet where all she consumed were shakes. Yeah, you lose weight while you drink the shakes because you're basically only getting 1500 calories a day...but once you eat "normal" food, you gain the weight right back.

There is no "quick fix" to body style and shape and size. We all have different sizes and not everyone can successfully lose weight. We sometimes ARE who we are.

Me, I eat healthy--lots of fresh veggies (having a garden in the yard helps). Lots of complex carbs. Not alot of sugar. When I eat meat (rarely), it's chicken or fish. No beef or pork or other shit in our house. It's just sensible eating. I need to exercise more but am limited because of being in school full time. But I do what I can and am healther (even if "heavier") because of it.

[Bouncy Ball]

Hey my stepdad became an alcoholic and lost weight!

The new Alcoholism Diet! Lose your appetite for food completely!

[Deja Q]

71. Hey hey hey! Good diet, exercise, L-Arginine, Hawthorne, and Cayenne is

what you need! :D

[Kalish]

72. the diet works

I've seen it first hand in two of my good friends. It was extraordinary. Atkins may not have followed it towards the end of his life (afterall it is hard to avoid carbs when they're so delicious) or it could have been as others have pointed out due to medical problems.

But the diet works. I trust my own eyes.

[Skittles]

78. as stated before

you can take heroin for a "diet" and it "works" - is it good for you? Uh, probably not.

[Kalish]

80. it's ok

as long as you begin to rework in carbs eventually...

you know, I cut down on carbs, and I've felt better because my blood sugar is more regular. I don't have mid day crashes in energy as often as I used to.

[Heddi]

82. But is it b/c you cut out GOOD carbs, or BAD carbs like refined sugar>

One need not be on an Atkins or low-carb style diet to cut down on carbs AND still eat a high-carb diet.

Cut out the high-fructose corn syrup. Cut out the white flour, white sugar, white this and that.

Stick to unrefined, brown, and whole. You're still eating alot of carbohydrates, but cutting out the shit that causes the trouble.

I guarantee you a peice of whole grain brown bread is alot healthier for you than a similar-carb-serving of diet soda that is filled with sugar-substitute sweetners and high fructose corn syrup.

It's not the CARBS that are bad, it's the TYPE of carbs that can get you.

[smbolisnch]

84. EXACTLY! Why is that so hard to understand?

It isn't rocket science, and Dr. Atkins was no genius. I would be willing to bet that the beef industry paid him well.

[Skittles]

85. the problem with low carb diets is they advise you to cut down on carbs

what you should really do is CUT DOWN ON EVERYTHING. It's too many CALORIES that get you, not too many CARBS. This diet fad just recycles every few decades - it will be back.

[shockra]

87. In the long run, lower protein is better for your blood sugar.

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/paramahamsa/diabetes.htm

An enormous scientific project which studied more than 25,000 people for 21 years, found that vegetarians have a much lower risk of diabetes than meat-eaters. One of the authors of the study, University of Minnesota epidemiologist Dr. David Snowden, summarized the findings:

¨We suspect it is the absence of meat that may explain our findings. In this study we looked at various levels of meat consumption, and as those levels got lower and lower, the risk of diabetes also decreased.¨

In a more personal vein, Dr. Snowden confided:

¨My meat consumption has dropped significantly....since completing the diabetes study.¨

Dr. Snowden's also mentioned that in over 20 years, he's never seen a vegan with diabetes.

[smbolisnch]

88. "in over 20 years, he's never seen a vegan with diabetes."

I'll be damned. ;)

[Touchdown]

154. In over 20 years I've only seen 2 Vegans.

so...there you go.:P

[friesianrider]

166. My doctor sees vegans almost exclusively - never seen a veg with major

problems. Because she is a vegan herself, she sees vegetarians and vegans almost exclusively. She said in all her years of practice (over 30) she has never seen a vegetarian with any heart problems, weight problems, or diabetes.

[Fiona]

168. So what do vegans die of?

boredom?

:D

[friesianrider]

174. Oh honey...

I'm a veg and not bored at all with my diet - sorry! I eat a wider variety of (tastier) foods since becoming a veg than I ever did as a meat-eater. ;) Plus I'm healthier, I lost weight, my skin and hair are better than ever, my allergies are almost completely gone, plus my choice is good for the environment. Can you say that about eating your coveted carcass you'd defend so viciously?

And naturally, vegans die of many things, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one dead of the many diseases most people get who enjoy willingly eating meat with their chemicals and antibiotics.

:hi:

[Fiona]

177. well darling

It was a joke. Did you see the big smile?

And since I've been on Atkins, I've lost weight, I feel better, my blood cholesterol profile is immeasurably better, and I have better sex.

Meat rawks.

[friesianrider]

178. Good for you!

I've achieved all of that and more since becoming veg, plus I'm helping the environment - pretty sure you're not.

When you die of colon cancer, I promise not to say I told ya so ;)

[Fiona]

180. Yer a real peach

is it possible in your narrow worldview that maybe not every person is the same?

The reason I don't become a vegetarian is the same reason I don't become a christian - I hate the fanatics. They're assholes.

[friesianrider]

182. Why thank you :)

And the reason I don't socialize with Atkins freaks is that they always have such a shitty attitude and a stick up their ass from the constepation from eating all that disgusting animal carcass. Nothing personal, doll ;)

[Fiona]

186. and congratulations

on the quality and frequency of your shit. It's nearly bovine.

As I said below, this thread has become unmanageable. Happy tofurkey dreams to you.

[friesianrider]

188. Same to you!

Must feel good farting out a dead carcass while you're having such great sex! Those memories will soothe you when you're sick from eating all that polluted garbage. :hi:

[smbolisnch]

179. A joke - kinda like the blender babies?

:shrug:

[Fiona]

181. Yeah

it was just like that. :eyes:

[smbolisnch]

185. Yeah, I figured as much.

Old habits die hard, huh? :eyes:

[smbolisnch]

91. That is a matter of potato carbs or pastry carbs.

There is a world of difference, and I am afraid Atkins has nothing to do with that. :shrug:

[smbolisnch]

86. Take a look at them in a year or two.

The fact is, nobody can maintain for a lifetime. The weight will come back, probably more than they had before. Then they will try to lose it again. All of that yo-yo dieting is what does a number on people.

Yes, to hell with my good health and being around for my kids and grandkids, I need to lose some weight FAST. I just don't get it.

[jobycom]

98. Worked for my boss, but now he's in the hospital having a biopsy

One of my bosses is very overweight, and he stayed on the Atkins diet religiously, and lost a lot of weight. A week ago they discovered a bleeding mass in his colon, and today they are planning to remove it and do a biopsy.

he had a colonoscopy done just before the diet, and was clean. So it's sprung up since he started the diet. May not be related, but it is exactly the kind of problem you'd associate with a high protein diet.

So yeah, it works. That's never been the question.

[smbolisnch]

102. Right.

I hope your boss is ok...
This is the perfect example of why this diet is just wrong, on so many levels.

[Touchdown]

107. It's not an example of anything

You are so desperate to discredit this diet that it really shows through what kind judgemental person you really are.

Your admittance of being a PETA member is all I need to know about your zealotry.

[Scout]

108. My friend died of colon cancer several years ago...

he never was on the Atkins diet, had lost weight through exercise and been (seemingly) healthy for years before he was diagnosed.

Hmmmm, wonder why HE got colon cancer and died? Just like his older brother, who was also never on the Atkins diet.

[smbolisnch]

132. My grandmother died of colon cancer as well.

She was never on Atkins either. What is your point? :shrug:

[Scout]

150. my point

jobycom stated this:
he had a colonoscopy done just before the diet, and was clean. So it's sprung up since he started the diet. May not be related, but it is exactly the kind of problem you'd associate with a high protein diet.

then you stated this:
This is the perfect example of why this diet is just wrong, on so many levels.

then you were replied to by Touchdown who said that these were not an example of anything (as you claimed they were).

and I was replying to Touchdown ... some posters are saying that Atkins diet gives colon cancer ... I'm saying my friend who was never on Atkins got colon cancer. So apparently you don't have to be on Atkins diet to get it, see now?

:eyes:

[friesianrider]

170. She never said that the Atkins diet causes cancer.

:eyes:

What she was saying is that the Atkins diet INCREASES the risk for colon cancer due to the high levels of meat you're eating, which it does. Do the research. Diets high in protein and fat (which is what meat is) combined with all the complete chemical crap that is in all meat today are completely unhealthy and lead to numerous very serious and deadly health problems. The data is all out there, believe the science or don't.

[dissent1977]

113. Ask any credible doctor

Eating as much fat as the Atkins diet suggests is not good for your heart. And the previous example of colon problems possibly as a result of Atkins seems to make sense, as the World Health Organization recently released a study which shows that red meat consumption increases the risk of colon cancer.

[Touchdown]

118. Ask the same doctor what happens to carbs if they are not used

...as energy for your daily use. It turns to human FAT, which is not good for your heart. Animal fat does nothing but provide nutrition.

[smbolisnch]

133. Um, yeah...that's why you EXERCISE.

:eyes:

[Touchdown]

135. I exercise just fine without potatoes or corn.

I can do that too. see...:eyes:

[smbolisnch]

137. But how many people don't? I wasn't referring to you specifically.

I know several people who did/do Atkins. Yes, they lost weight. No the didn't exercise.

They gained the weight back, and then some.

[Touchdown]

139. Because they went off the diet.

They're bodies were not made to handle more than 25 grams of carbs a day, and they pigged out on bread. Blame the diet because they cheated, or fell off the wagon all you want. Atkins died because he hit his head on the ice, not because of colon cancer, heart disease, or bacon wraps.

[smbolisnch]

140. Exactly. Most people cannot stick to this diet.

You can? Fine, good for you. MOST people don't. That's why it' a fad.

[Touchdown]

146. Wrong. It's because society doesn't support it.

How many restaurants can I count that don't offer cottage cheese instead of a baked potato? How many places charge and extra $2 for extra vegetables instead of rice? Croutons are easy to remove from a salad, but the hot pumpernickel rolls...sitting there in front of you are tempting, and few have that kind of will power. Even shopping is more expensive. A NY Strip is worth 10 boxes of Kraft Mac-N-Cheese, 3 Ragu jars + dry fettuccini, and at least 5 loaves of bread. Natural (no sugar) peanut butter is $2 more than Peter Pan. Where's McDonald's couple of slices of sharp cheddar instead of the super size fries?

[smbolisnch]

148. You are blaming society???

Puuulease! :rofl:

Everywhere I go all I see is low carb this and low carb that. And I don't know where you live that you can't get a low carb meal, but it's nowhere typical.

You said it yourself, it's willpower. Most people CAN'T STICK TO IT. You just said so.

[Touchdown]

155. Yeah, they started appearing in the last 2 years.

...the diet has been around since 1971.

I'm not blaming society. Like you said I said, it's the will power, but over most years it's been very limiting when eating out. Maybe if you had a steak once in a while your comprehension level would improve...then read the book again to pick up what you missed the first time.:crazy:

[smbolisnch]

156. "Maybe if you had a steak once in a while"

Um, I think I'll pass. :puke::puke::puke:

[Touchdown]

157. Eh', that's a shame.

[smbolisnch]

158. That's the pretty version.

Show this to your kids before you serve them a plate of steak.
This is what you are clogging you arteries with.

[Touchdown]

159. Yep. That's what it looks like...and tastes better.

Not as good as sex, but damn close.

BTW: I watched a steer's throat slit when I was 16 and I worked in a nursing home, digging for lost suppositories when I was 21. You can't disgust me, but nice try.:hi:

EDIT: without rubber gloves.

BTW: I'm not alone either...

[smbolisnch]

160. I wasn't trying to disgust you.

[Touchdown]

161. Oh. So you care about me living to 90 without Social Security, Medicare,

astronomical property taxes (If my home is not eminent domained), and a dollar that is worth ten cents to what it is worth today, because the Chinese and the Saudis will eventually want their money back after the oil runs dry, right?

Polyanna was another Disney fictional character.

BTW: I'm joking here...about my life, but not about America.

[friesianrider]

165. Are you constipated or something from eating so much meat?

Chill out, dude. If you can look at that picture of your steak WHILE eating your steak, more power to you. But you should know exactly what kind of disgusting crap you are so enthusiastically putting in your body.

[friesianrider]

171. Exactly, very well said. nt

nt

[smbolisnch]

131. The same could be said for your desperation to credit it.

And FYI, I didn't admit to being a PETA member, I offered it up. I am proud to be.

There is nothing to discredit, the health ramifications are yet to be seen. You cannot possible be asserting that saturated fat, cholesterol and steroids are ahealthy diet? COME ON!

[Touchdown]

136. I'm not asserting that at all.

You are making an assumption that's all it is. I eat more fish and grilled chicken than hamburger. I also eat more vegetables than you seem to give the dieters credit for. And you said you read the book...riiiiigggghhhht.

The reason you have an irrational hatred for Atkins is that his diet has DEAD ANIMALS IN IT. They are not to eat, but to love and cuddle and to let roam the streets in peaceful bliss. Not for any supposed condescending care over my health. The sooner you admit that, we can move on.

[smbolisnch]

138. Uh, yes I did read the book. I have no hatred for Atkins, and who are you

to assert that I did? :wtf:

And reading the book didn't make a bit of difference as far as my opinion goes. And no, I couldn't give a shit about your health after the way you have acted, but I do care about my mother's health.

[Touchdown]

141. Then why aren't you talking to her instead of me?

It's obvious you hate him. Why would you post a PRIVATE MEDICAL RECORD on the internet unless you wanted to make hay about what a carnivorous monster he was?

[smbolisnch]

142. Well, it wasn't private. It was in LBN.

I don't hate him. I did mention that, right?

[friesianrider]

172. So, are you denying a link between...

The Atkins diet and an increased risk for colon cancer?

Are you denying a link between eating meat and increased risk of serious and deadly diseases?

I'd highly suggest you do your research before answering this with a "yes, that's just PeTA propaganda!!"

[Fiona]

187. can you find a link

between LOW CARB diets and colon cancer?

[friesianrider]

189. Pssh.

I thought I'd just about finished you off, doll.

Seriously. Keep saying a diet 95% made of flesh is healthy. If you can't see obvious problems and read this thread for verifiable links, I can't help ya there.

Go ahead, you can have last word. You're boring to argue with anyway, as far as raging, grumpy carnovires go. *yawn*

[Fiona]

193. Ya made me stay up for one more response...

can you answer the question?

Evidently, you know nothing about the Atkins diet if you think it's 95% meat.

Now... to the question at hand: can you find me a link showing a LOW CARB diet is linked to colon cancer? You can PM me with the results.

[smbolisnch]

196. Here you go:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/SPC/content/SPC_1_A_Low_Carb_Diet_to_Prevent_Cancer.asp

[friesianrider]

197. Okie dokie. Linkie!

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=42601

What Are the Health Risks Associated With High Protein, Low Carb Diets?

High protein diets can cause a number of health problems, including:

Kidney failure. Consuming too much protein puts a strain on the kidneys, which can make a person susceptible to kidney disease.

High cholesterol. It is well known that high protein diets (consisting of red meat, whole dairy products, and other high fat foods) are linked to high cholesterol. Studies have linked high cholesterol levels to an increased risk of developing heart disease and cancer.

Osteoporosis and kidney stones. High protein diets have also been shown to cause people to excrete more calcium than normal through their urine. Over a prolonged period of time, this can increase a person's risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones.

Cancer. One of the reasons high protein diets increase the risks of certain health problems is because of the avoidance of carbohydrate-containing foods and the vitamins, minerals, fiber and anti-oxidants they contain.

Unhealthy metabolic state (ketosis). Low carb diets can cause your body to go into a dangerous metabolic state called ketosis since your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. During ketosis, the body forms substances known as ketones, which can cause organs to fail and result in gout, kidney stones, or kidney failure. Ketones can also dull a person's appetite, cause nausea and bad breath. Ketosis is prevented by eating at least 100 grams of carbohydrates a day.

[smbolisnch]

199. *chirp.....chirp"

Is it just me or did it get quiet in here?? :shrug:

[friesianrider]

201. I'm thinking the same thing, lol.

I was sure to PM her the links though, per her request. ;)

[friesianrider]

167. Damn.

I've heard it worked for many people but when you stray even a little, the weight comes back immediately. I also know people who maintained it for awhile - until they had major and sudden unexplained health problems.

Eating meat is incredibly unhealthy to begin with, why people think it is somehow "good" to eat it almost exclusively is beyond me.

[Fiona]

169. nonsense

people who go off ANY "diet" regain weight.

Meat is not incredibly unhealthy. The notion that humans evolved as vegetarians is simply not scientifically sound.

[friesianrider]

173. Hahaha.

Meat IS increadibly unhealthy (at the very least compared to a vegetarian diet) - both for you and the environment. Do some research.

And FYI, the meat that humans have eaten for thousands of years isn't exactly what you're eating when you get chicken breast or a steak. Why don't you google the chemicals and crap that is pumped into an animal before it is slaughtered - that way when you get sick from all that shit, you won't wonder why.

[Fiona]

175. as far as I know

Atkins doesn't mention added chemicals. Nor, is that what we're discussing.

If I only eat organic, pure meat, is that OK with you?

[friesianrider]

176. You may eat whatever you want.

If it makes you feel better to say you only eat organic "pure" (whatever that is) meat, more power to you. :shrug: I'm not here to demand you live a particular way, just offering my opinion - take it or leave it, makes no difference to me one way or another.

And, all meat (even organic) is loaded with chemicals, hence the reference. Look it up. :hi:

[Fiona]

183. and of course

vegetables are made of non-chemicals.

Anyway, I'd love to argue with you all night, but this thread has become unmanageable. Happy peaceful tofu dreams.

[friesianrider]

184. Thanks bunches ;)

Great response, btw :eyes:

Enjoy eating all that crap - I promise I won't make fun of you anymore :hi:

[nashville_brook]

152. we could all do with less carbs, sugars, crap

we did it -- lost a bunch of weight and changed our attitude about eating. people focus on the outrageous bacon-eating. it's not about that -- it's about fueling the body in a way that encourages using stored energy. no hocus-pocus. bascially a diabetic diet.

[NancyG]

92. I've lost 40# on Atkins over 2 years.

My BMI is 24, no longer overweight.

I do it right. Meat and green vegetables. It's very easy for me to stay on it. I haven't been hungry for 2 years. I will have no problem maintaining this for a lifetime. I buy food from the outside edges of the supermarket, where I can get unprocessed food. I eat no trans fats, except in restaurants and there I ask what kind of oil they use.

[smbolisnch]

93. But what about all of the saturated fat and cholesterol?

Not to mention all of the hormones and antibiotics pumped into all of that meat (and by default cheese). :shrug: Aren't you concerned about your long term health? Heart disease?

[Scout]

99. put your flame suit on

see, all the people who have not tried Atkins, have not even read the book will be here soon, telling you how wrong you are, how you're going to die of a heart attack.

If you are insulin resistant and/or have metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes) Atkins diet can work for you. Your cholesterol will improve, your triglycerides will improve. Keep checking in with your doctor and getting your blood work done.

Are you in maintenance now?

[smbolisnch]

103. I have read the book.

And my opinion stands. No flame suit required. If you can't answer the questions, that's not my fault.

[Touchdown]

106. I can answer.

The New England Journal of Medicine's study of low carb diets in 2003. It is certainly more credible than a doctored photocopy of a confidential medical report passed on to you by an anti-Artkins propagandist.

I've been on it, and my cholesterol is good, and my heart is, for a 40 year old, strong.

[shockra]

112. In the short term, it won't kill you?

Two Studies Vindicate Atkins Diet

The Diet Really Does Help People Lose Weight

May 21, 2003 3:03 pm US/Central

NEW ORLEANS (AP) A month after Dr. Robert C. Atkins' death, his much-ridiculed diet has received its most powerful scientific support yet: Two studies in one of medicine's most distinguished journals show it really does help people lose weight faster without raising their cholesterol.

The research, in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine, found that people on the high-protein, high-fat, low-carbohydrate Atkins diet lose twice as much weight over six months as those on the standard low-fat diet recommended by most major health organizations.

However, one of the studies found that the Atkins dieters regain much of the weight by the end of one year.

<snip>

The studies did not convince Kathleen Zelman, a spokeswoman for the American Dietetic Association.

``There's never been any denying that low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets such as Atkins do, absolutely, cause weight loss,'' she said. ``But do they hold up over time and can you stay on them over time?''

From Foster's study, it does not look like it, she said.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=107100

[dissent1977]

114. Talk about a deceptive title on that article

The title says "Two Studies Vindicate Atkins Diet: The Diet Really Does Help People Lose Weight"

Then you read the rest of the article and find out that "one of the studies found that the Atkins dieters regain much of the weight by the end of one year."

Think Atkins paid off the AP, like so many of their other corporate advertisers do?

[Scout]

116. "one of the studies found that the Atkins dieters regain much of the weigh

most dieters using ANY diet regain much of the weight if they go off the diet and/or stop exercising.

This is hardly an indictment of the Atkins plan.

[shockra]

124. That article was on a pro-Atkins site

If you want an indictment, you have to go to the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/

[Scout]

128. I don't want an indictment...

I'm just saying since the weight gain after dieting is extremely common for any diet plan, that it can't be seen as in indictment of Atkins plan alone.

[Touchdown]

119. Who paid you off to trash Atkins?

the Hail to Vega foundation?

[friesianrider]

206. I'm always amazed...

When people like you - who are so viciously and militant about justifying their precious carcass-eating - actually call vegetarians the extremists. Even more amazing is that even in the face of indisputable evidence of how incredibly unhealthy meat-eating is, the only response you can seem to come up with is some typical and lame anti-vegetarian/anti-vegan or personal insult/joke. :eyes:

[smbolisnch]

134. Doctored?

Ok, how do you know that? And so you don't think he was this big when he died? Cause if it's doctored, someone is making it up. Which is it?

[Touchdown]

143. It's as credible an explaination as any.

Do you deny there is an entire industry devoted to discrediting him, including where you got this record?

If he was admitted at 195lb. and died a week later at 257lbs. ...and as some here say that defies logic, so ATKINS must have been lying. But you and other crusaders for Bambi couldn't possibly believe this document is nothing more than the dietary version of Kerry speaking with Jane Fonda in San Francisco. You wouldn't even consider the possibility, woudl you? Admit it. The veracity of this document is suspect simply because it came from an anti-Atkins crusader who's salary depends on it.

[smbolisnch]

144. Who, the smoking gun?

Aren't they sort of anti-everything? Why and how are they anti-atkins, or out to discredit him? You are starting to sound a bit paranoid.

Crusader for Bambi? :rofl: I think I like that title.

[Touchdown]

153. You know he's a cartoon character.

;)

I'm not talking about them, but about who they got it from, and who (you) are passing it off as more proof of the evils of meat eating.

[friesianrider]

207. "...passing it off as more proof of the evils of meat eating."

I don't think she needs to pass off a doctored autopsy report as proof of the problems associated with meat eating. There's plenty of evidence of that (undoctored, of course ;)) if you'd take a minute or two away from DU and educate yourself instead of looking so paranoid.

[Gardeaux08]

163. Sure.

I read the book, tried the diet, and three months later had to have surgery to remove my gallbladder. I'm only glad it wasn't my heart.

[Fiona]

164. surgery to remove one's heart

is rare.

Just kidding...

I don't claim that Atkins works for everybody. But for me, AFTER having had a near-miss with a severe cardiac artery blockage, and after my doctor suggested looking into Metabolic Syndrome, I tried Atkins.

Within a month, my triglycerides were cut by two thirds. My HDL doubled, and my LDL went down 30%. Both my cardiologist and GP were stunned by the numbers. I told them I was trying Atkins,and both of them said the same thing: It's not what we recommend, but we've seen these results in other people. So keep it up.

It may not be for everybody. But for SOME people, it's a life-saver.

[friesianrider]

208. "It's not what we recommend..."

"It's not what we'd recommend, but we've seen these results in other people. So keep it up."

So keep it up, but it's not what we'd recommend? Where are you going to the doctor, your local cattle rancher/physician? I find it hard to believe a doctor said he wouldn't recommend it but then said "keep it up." Sounds like a made-up story to me.

LOL...And by the way, how the hell do you consider that a doctor's "thumbs up" of your insane and destructive diet anyway? Wow - I've seen it all now.

:rofl:

[Mairead]

115. The anti-Atkins people always fail to notice that the people living

traditional lives in the Arctic circle live on nothing but meat and fat their whole lives -- they don't garden, they don't bake; they hunt and fish, and they live lives that are just as long and healthy as anyone else's.

[shockra]

117. They also have the highest rate of osteoporosis in the world.

http://www.beyondhealth.com/osteoporosis.htm

Alaskan Eskimos have the highest osteoporosis rate in the world because they eat twice as much protein as we do, and it's all animal protein. They also consume more than twice as much calcium as we do, but it doesn't help. The excessive protein is the key.

[Touchdown]

120. I guess it's hard to heard cattle in the Arctic Circle.

They must freeze too easily. :eyes:

Do you people have anything but anecdotes?

[friesianrider]

209. Anecdotes?

I think that's the fourth or fifth verification link you've quickly responded with a "yeah...well....YOU PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING BUT ANECDOTES! SO THERE!"

:eyes:

[Mairead]

123. A more credible cite might be better

Seeing credentials as vague as 'MIT-trained scientist' and 'registered nutrition consultant' raises warning flags for me. And the lack of literature citations doesn't improve matters.

See, for example, this contrary view: http://homodiet.netfirms.com/otherssay/osteoporosis.htm

"The protein theory was first presented in 19681 and followed up in 1972 with a study comparing bone density of vegetarians and meat eaters.2 Twenty-five British lacto-ovo vegetarians were matched for age and sex with an equal number of omnivores. Bone density, determined by reading X-rays of the third finger metacarpal, was found to be significantly higher in the vegetarians. Two years later, a study on North Alaskan Eskimos reported that bone loss, determined by a technique called direct photon absorptiometry, was significantly greater in Eskimos than in whites, and began at an earlier age.3 Although growth patterns and bone densities in children were similar for both groups, by age 70, Eskimos were found to have bone densities 15% below comparable whites, with Eskimos females at 30% below comparable whites. The authors of the study attribute the decline in bone mass to the high protein diet of the Eskimos, especially its high meat content. Some studies with animals, as well as further studies with humans, given diets high in protein also indicate a greater loss of calcium and thinner bones than controls on low protein regimes.

But the pioneering research of Dr. Weston Price indicates that we should not accept the protein theory without further study. Dr. Price found many groups throughout the world subsisting on high meat diets. Although he did not directly study bone density in these peoples, he did study their teeth. He found that groups on high meat diets--including Alaskan Eskimos--had a high immunity to tooth decay, were sturdy and strong, and virtually free from degenerative disease. Groups subsisting mainly on plant foods were less robust and had more tooth decay. Pre-Columbian skeletons of American Indians whose diets consisted largely of meat show no osteoporosis, while those of Indians on largely vegetarian diets indicate a high incidence of osteoporosis and other types of bone degeneration. The implication of Dr. Price's research and other anthropoligical studies is that high meat diets protect against osteoporosis. How do we explain this discrepancy?

The research of Dr. Herta Spencer, of the Veterans Administration Hospital in Hines Illinois, supplies us with clues. She notes that the animal and human studies that correlated calcium loss with high protein diets used isolated, fractionated amino acids from milk or eggs.4 Her studies show that when protein is given as meat, subjects do not show any increase in calcium excreted, or any significant change in serum calcium, even over a long period.5 Other investigators found that a high protein intake increased calcium absorption when dietary calcium was adequate or high, but not when calcium intake was a low 500 mg per day.6 "

[shockra]

216. More credible?

Weston A. Price of the Weston A. Price Foundation and A Campaign for Real (Raw) Milk sends up red flags for me. A proponent of animal fats that says cholesterol is your best friend. Also: The organization is an active lobby in Washington, DC on issues such as government food triangle definition and composition of school lunch programs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_A._Price_Foundation

"Eskimos have one of the very highest rates of osteoporosis in the world." John Robbins, Diet for a New America --source:

Frey R Ellis, et al, "Incidence of osteoporosis in vegetarians and omnivores" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, June 1972, 25:555-558

Also mentioned was Eskimos have "the highest dietary calcium intake of any people in the world -- more than 2,000 mg. a day from fish bones."

Richard B Mazess and Warren Mather, "Bone mineral content of North Alaskan Eskimos" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, September 1974 2: 916-925

No surprise the Weston A. Price Foundation is virulently anti-soy. There is a long article on Robbins's site about the claims of Sally Fallon (head of the Price Foundation) and Mary G. Enig:

Over the past months, I've received quite a number of requests from people asking for my views on soy products. Many of these inquiries have mentioned a stridently anti-soy article written by Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, titled "Tragedy and Hype," that has been widely circulated. This article presents a systematic series of accusations against soy consumption, and has formed the basis for many similar articles. Large numbers of people, as a result, are now seriously questioning the safety of soy.

The litany of dangers with soy products, according to the article by Fallon and Enig, is nearly endless. Tofu, they say, shrinks brains and causes Alzheimer's. Soy products promote rather than prevent cancer. Soy contains "antinutrients" and is full of toxins. The pro-soy publicity of the past few years is nothing but "propaganda." Soy formula, they say, amounts to "birth control pills for babies."

"Soy is not hemlock," they conclude, "soy is more insidious than hemlock."

<snip>

"Studies in which cholesterol levels were lowered through either diet or drugs," claim Fallon and Enig, "have consistently resulted in a greater number of deaths in the treatment groups than in controls." To document this remark, which is entirely unsupported in the scientific literature, the authors provide a footnote to an article written by themselves.

Elsewhere they write: "The truth is that cholesterol is your best friend… When cholesterol levels in the blood are high, it's because the body needs cholesterol… There is no greater risk of heart disease at cholesterol levels of 300 than at 180."

That's quite a point of view, ignoring as it does nearly everything that has been learned about heart disease and cholesterol in the past 30 years by medical science....

http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm

google Weston A. Price and Dr. Neal Barnard together and you get lots of articles about Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine being vegan terrorists.

[u4ic]

191. Vitamin D is also a big player in osteoporosis

a lack of vitamin D is a contributing factor. Vitamin D is, of course, the sunshine vitamin.

Haven't lived in Alaska, but have in Northern Alberta, and the winters are very long and very dark.

[shockra]

215. Fish is high in Vitamin D.

Fish liver being the most concentrated source.

[shockra]

122. Not just as long.

http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/tsnhod-14.html

The populations consuming the highest levels of animal flesh—the Eskimos, Laplanders, Greenlanders and Russian Kurgi tribes—also have life expectancies averaging about 30 years. Nor can such a short lifespan be attributed to harsh climate. The Russian Caucasians and Yucatan Indians, for example, live mostly on vegetarian foods and have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years.

The populations with the longest lifespans include the Vilacambans of Ecuador, the Abhikasians of the former USSR, and the Hunzas of Pakistan. The most remarkable feature of all these people is that they live almost entirely on plant foods. The Hunzas, for example, eat a diet that is 98.5 percent plant food.

[Mairead]

127. Perhaps a more credible cite would be better?

For example, we have a Canadian government estimate that
"A gap in life expectancy of Aboriginal men and women compared to the non-Aboriginal population: On average, First Nations men live seven years less than other Canadian men, and First Nations women, five years less than other Canadian women. Life expectancy for Inuit is also believed to be lower although statistics are not available for all northern regions."

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/hca2003/fmm/fmm02.htm

I would think that if Inuit life expectancy were only 30 years, statistics wouldn't need to come into it. The differences, I note from another chart (http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/rma/dpr/99-00/hc-sc/hc9900dpr03_e.asp), seem as though they can be attributed to the much higher infant mortality among aboriginal Canadians.

(Edit: "Life expectancy – While Canadians can expect to live 78 years on average, life expectancy among Inuit is significantly lower – 64 years in some regions." This is from an Inuit publication, which also points out the very high infant mortality and suicide rates among the people)

Your author also seems to have an odd idea about the climate conditions in the Russian Caucasus.

[shockra]

213. The information on that site was taken from Diet for a New America

John Robbins's Pulitzer Prize nominated book. Verbatim:

The Lowest and Highest Life Expectancies in the World

After World War II, scientists began for the first time to compile comprehensive statistics correlating the diet-styles and health of all the populations in the world.

One fact that emerged consistently was the strong correlation between heavy flesh-eating and short life expectancy. The Eskimos, the Laplanders, the Greenlanders, and the Russian Kurgi tribes stood out as the populations with the highest animal flesh consumption in the world — and also as among the populations with the lowest life expectancies, often only about 30 years.

It was found, further, that this was not due to the severity of their climates alone. Other peoples, living in harsh conditions, but subsisting with little or no animal flesh, had some of the highest life expectancies in the world. World health statistics found, for example, that an unusually large number of the Russian Caucasians, the Yucatan Indians, the East Indian Todas and the Pakistan Hunzakuts have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years.

<snip>

The cultures with the very longest life spans in the world are the Vilcambas, who reside in the Andes of Ecuador; the Abkhasians, who live on the Black Sea in the USSR; and the Hunzas, who live in the Himalayas of Northern Pakistan. Researchers discovered a “striking similarity” in the diets of these groups, scattered though they are in different parts of the planet. All three are either totally vegetarian or close to it. (pages 154-155)

http://www.healingartsonline.com/is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house/

[Puzzler]

125. I've heard...

... that this story is a hoax... although I can't prove it.

One little question: aren't autopsy reports a matter of public record? And if they aren't, then why the "Confidential" stamp at the top? Since the word would be on the forms anyway.


-P

[Horse with no Name]

149. Story isn't a hoax

Check snopes.
Autopsy records are NOT public records--they are considered medical records. Death certificates are public record. This was released without the family permission--that is why the confidential is on the top.

[libnnc]

151. I posted on this earlier...

This diet has been a success for me but...

Dr. Atkins is dead. Why can't folks let him rest in peace?

[Bouncy Ball]

190. All I know is this:

I tried Atkins. I did it right, too. I wasn't eating sticks of butter or crazy shit like that, I was doing Atkins the right way, the real way, sticking to it completely to the "t."

I already had high cholesterol when I started it (mostly genetic, even when I was younger and in fantastic physical shape I had total cholesterol over 200, always, same with my mother and grandmother).

My cholesterol skyrocketed. My doctor said STOP Atkins. He's normally a pretty dispassionate guy but he got pretty animated that day. It had risen dramatically and my bad cholesterol was up even higher, too. (I'm only 34, btw.)

He said "cut out the saturated fat and cholesterol."

Well. That kind of nixed Atkins.

Several months after that (I was just eating normally for a while), I decided to cut out all meat and become vegetarian (not vegan, I still have low-fat dairy products). My cholesterol has never been lower. Good cholesterol is up, bad cholesterol is down.

I don't eat white breads and I usually stay away from white rice, other bleached out starches. I eat whole grain products, lots of fruits and veggies, tofu, etc. Wide variety of foods, just no meat.

I have never felt better. And my cholesterol alone is indicative of the effects.

I am NOT saying people have to stop eating meat, so don't start jumping my case thinking I am judging you. I'm not. I really don't give a shit if you eat meat. I also don't care if you lost a lot of weight on Atkins. Good for you.

But I do think it's not such a good thing for people prone to high cholesterol. That's something to keep in mind. My best friend's dad lost weight on Atkins and loves it but now has a problem with high cholesterol that he has to deal with.

[friesianrider]

194. This has been my experience.

Why people even ATTEMPT to argue that a vegetarian diet isn't monumentally healthier is beyond me.

[Bouncy Ball]

198. When I found out that vegetarian kids have a MUCH lower risk

of all cancers over their lifetime, I felt pretty good about my daughter joining me in this, too.

This is how I live now. It's not hard, I'm not EVER tempted to eat meat and I've been in a few situations (work situations where the lunch was catered and the only food I could get right then) where I had to be awfully creative, but I'm willing to do it to reap the health benefits of not eating meat.

My heart thanks me! I was too young for cholesterol that high!

[friesianrider]

200. I've heard that as well.

Someone further up wanted links between high protein/low carb diets and cancer. I found about 57 with links between high protein diets and all kinds of really serious health problems. I'm definitely raising my kids veg.

It was hard for me to be veg the first, say two weeks, but after that it hasn't been a problem at all. I hate the smell of meat now because I know what it is and the health and environmental problems associated with it. In fact, I experiment more with cooking now that I am veg than I ever did as a meat-eater! Plus, the food is much tastier, MUCH healthier for my body, and better for the environment. There's absolutely no reason not to switch, IMHO :)

[Lorien]

203. I've seen what a nearly all meat diet can do to a body

my father LOVES meat-especially beef and pork. He'll eat brown rice with his beef once in a while, or small amounts of cooked carrots and potatoes-but otherwise it's 1/2 pound of bacon for breakfast, pork chops for lunch and steak for dinner. His cholesterol is sky high, he's about 100 pounds overweight,he has a pacemaker, and he just had surgery for an aneurysm earlier this year. His blood pressure is through the roof too-but when I mention his "diet" to Adkins fans, they always say "well, it must be the brown rice and potatoes" :wtf: Yeah, 1/2 cup of brown rice along with TWO flank steaks for dinner, and the rice is the problem. :eyes:

[smbolisnch]

204. That sucks Lorien :(

:hug:
My mom does Atkins - she is more concerned with 10lbs than possibly 10 years. :(

[friesianrider]

205. Hahaha!

Thieir "rationalization" truly defies logic! That's amazing. I've never heard an argument even somewhat persuasive for a meat diet.

On that note, I regretfully neglected to apologize for the situation you're in with your Dad - I'm really sorry. I think a lot of people are just raised with it, and refuse to accept new information as it becomes available.

[Lorien]

210. Weird thing is that his parents had a normal diet

his ex-girlfriend loved veggies and was a great cook. Once she dumped him he decided that he would only eat what he really liked, and he really likes mammal meat. I send him all kinds of articles on the dangers of a diet high in beef and pork-hell, I'd be happy at this point if he'd just switch to fish and chicken! But his mind is made up-it's mammals for dinner, period. I love my dad, but I don't see how he'll ever make it to 70 at this rate. :cry:

[friesianrider]

211. Oh, geez.

I know how you feel, really I do. I had a hissy fit on some poster the other day about smoking - my grandmother wouldn't ever listen to me about quitting, and it was so frustrating to know she was making such poor health choices. It stinks, I know. :hug:

[Mairead]

212. With your dad, it's all a problem--but the rice is the key

I'm a fan of the low-carb diet, which has worked well for me. I'm also a veg, which as you can imagine if you think about it makes for an extremely restricted, boring, and difficult diet.

The key to weight loss under the low-carb diet -first publicised 150 years ago by an Englishman named Banting, supposedly on the advice of his (anonymous) physician- is to get into and stay in ketosis. That's the state where your body is mobilising fat. For people with an impaired carbohydrate metabolism, that is the ONLY state where their body mobilises fat--unless they're in ketosis, their bodies relentlessly add fat rather than burn it.

To get into ketosis, you have to flush out the carbs by fasting for 48-72 hours. After that, you must stay within your body's particular 'carb tolerance' limit or you'll be back to square zero, storing fat again rather than burning it.

Your dad's rice (and to a lesser degree potatoes and carrots) is what's keeping him out of ketosis. Which means that all the meat and fat he eats is, as you know, gradually killing him. But that same meat and fat wouldn't be a problem if he were in ketosis--his body would simply use what it needed and excrete the rest, partly unburnt.

This is not a cult or 'fad diet'; there's no religion involved. It's all totally boring, well-understood science and it's as reliable as clockwork.

[walldude]

192. You know, I was'nt going to post in this thread

because honestly, I didn't give a shit how much Atkins weighed. After I saw that it was the busiest thread of the day I had to come in and ask why?

[Moderator]

221. Locking....

This discussion has run its course.