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Today's fundy e-mail: GOD SAID CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:42 AM
Original message
Today's fundy e-mail: GOD SAID CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
This kills me. How do you argue with these people? Their reasoning is scary. I also got one a while back justifying war.
I posted most of what was sent ... it is lengthy, but I do not have the original source to link.

GOD SAID in Exodus, chapter 20, verse 13:
Thou shalt not kill.
But if one commits murder, GOD SAID in Genesis, chapter 9, verse 6:
Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
MAN SAID, “The principle fact is that the death penalty has been a gross failure. Beyond its horror, it has neither protected the innocent nor deterred the wicked,” according to former California Governor, “Pat” Brown Sr.

Now THE RECORD. Many argue erroneously that the Bible is in contradiction concerning the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill,” because the principle of capital punishment is commanded in the same Bible. Here, however, a definition of words is essential. Just as in the word “kill,” most words have more than one meaning. For example, the word “dog” has more meanings than the one referring to a canine. It could also mean “a spiritually perverted person,” etc. The first sentence in Noah Webster’s definition of “kill” is, “To deprive of life, animal or vegetable, in any manner or by any means.” According to its definition, “killing” would include taking a life in the business of judgment as well as taking a life by murder. These two deeds, of course, are vastly different from one another. The act of murder is defined as, “To kill a human with premeditated malice.” Any student of the scriptures would surely be aware of the Biblical differentiation of taking a life in judgment versus in the act of murder. Numbers, chapter 35, verse 16:
And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
One must understand that God, the creator of life, reserves the right to take life in judgment. The book of Revelation is filled with coming last day judgments of Satan and his carnal followers when the final destruction will result in the blood of the judged flowing all the way up to the horses’ bridles (Revelation 14:20).

Romans, chapter 13, verses 3-5, read:

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

And then in I Timothy, chapter 1, verses 9-10:

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there by any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Most of the sins mentioned above, under the law, incurred the judgment of death.

Secondly, it is important to note that one who is guilty of shedding the blood of another, when his life is forfeited in judgment, becomes guilty of taking his own life. The scriptures say, “his blood shall be upon him,” (Leviticus 20: 9-17).

It is not God who is against capital punishment, and there is certainly no contradiction.

When God says “Yes,” you can be certain that the champions of disobedience will say “No,” and so it is also concerning the matter of capital punishment. In 1972, capital punishment was banned in the United States but reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976. During the abolishment of the death penalty in the U.S., the murder rate increased 100%. Human Events published the following statement by J.L. Jones, “The idea that capital punishment ‘deters no one’ does not explain the rapid rise of homicides in America while the death penalty was virtually outlawed. Deterrent or not, it effectively eliminates the possibility of a repeat crime.”

Concerning repeat crimes, this following excerpt is from the 1988 Standard Law Review, “Of the roughly 52,000 state prison inmates serving time for murder in 1984, an estimated 810 had previously been convicted of murder and had killed 821 persons following their previous murder convictions. Executing each of these inmates would have saved 821 lives.” God’s commandment of capital punishment is correct.

The uninformed and those who simply contend that capital punishment is valueless (because God commanded it) continue to claim it is not a deterrent, and that’s in the face of considerable information to the contrary.

In Human Events, M.S. Evans said, “Nearly all the evidence we have shows capital punishment is a general deterrent to deadly crime...”

The State of Delaware executes more people per capita than any other state in the union and has a murder rate one sixteenth that of Washington D.C., which has the highest violent crime rate in America.

This following paragraph was found in the book, Capital Punishment: “In 1976, the U.S. Supreme Court argued for both sides of the issue. In Gregg v. Georgia, the high court took the position that we may “assume safely that...the threat of death has little or no deterrent effect (on murderers) who act in passion.” But for murders that were well thought out, “the death penalty is...a significant deterrent.” One particular study shows that convicted criminals, at a ratio of five to one, believe that the death penalty would deter them from murdering their victims.

The following passage is from a paper prepared by Dudley Sharp, titled, “Death Penalty and Sentencing Information In the United States, “The most conclusive evidence that criminals fear the death penalty more than life without parole is provided by convicted capital murderers and their attorneys. 99.9% of all convicted capital murderers and their attorneys argue for life, not death, in the punishment phase of their trial. When the death penalty becomes real, murderers fear it the most.”

Defeated on the “non-deterrent” front, the anti-death penalty proponents drop back to their second line of defense, which is wrongful death. It must first be noted, to be sentenced to death and to actually be put to death is an arduous task filled with precautions against wrongful death. Again Mr. Sharp: “To punish with death, each one of the 12 jurors must agree with the prosecution in each of five specific areas. A death sentence requires that the prosecution must prevail in 60 out of those 60 considerations, or 100%. To avoid death, the defendant must prevail in only 1 out of those 60 considerations, or 1.67%. If convicted and sentenced to death, the inmate may then begin an appeals process that could extend through 23 years, 60 appeals and over 200 individual judicial and executive reviews of the inmate’s claims.

According to the ACLU death penalty campaign statement, as reported by The New American, “A review of death penalty judgments over a 23-year period found a national error rate of 68%,” The New American responded to this study as follows:
Correction: The major media reported this highly publicized Columbia University study uncritically when it was first released in 2000. But Reg Brown from the Florida governor’s office exploded it: “The ‘study’ defines ‘error’ to include any issue requiring further review by a lower court.... Using the authors’ misleading definition, the ‘study’ does, however, conclude that 64 Florida post-conviction cases were rife with ‘error’ – even though none of these Florida cases was ultimately resolved by a ‘not guilty’ verdict, a pardon or a dismissal of murder charges.”

Brown noted that even political overturning of death penalty cases added to the figure. “The nearly 40 death penalty convictions that were reversed by the California Supreme Court during the tenure of liberal activist Rose Bird are treated as ‘error cases’ when in fact ideological bias was arguably at work.” Paul G. Cassell of the Wall Street Journal explained how the 68 percent figure is deceptive: “After reviewing 23 years of capital sentences, the study’s authors (like other researchers) were unable to find a single case in which an innocent person was executed. Thus, the most important error rate – the rate of mistaken executions – is zero.”

Again, The New American article engaged the claims that the death penalty is racist. It reads:
The claim that the death penalty unfairly impacts blacks and minorities is a deliberate fraud. The majority of those executed since 1976 have been white, even though black criminals commit a slim majority of murders. If the death penalty is racist, it is biased against white murderers and not blacks.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Statistics, blacks committed 51.5% of murders between 1976 and 1999, while whites committed 46.5%. Yet even though blacks committed a majority of murders, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reports: “Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up the majority of those under sentence of death.” Whites continued to comprise the majority on death row in the year 2000 (1,990 whites to 1,535 blacks and 68 others). In the year 2000, 49 of the 85 people actually put to death were whites.

God’s perfect commandment in this imperfect world does at least the following...

1. It deters murder.

2. The families, whose loved ones have been slain, see the final chapter of their terrible ordeal written, and the book closed.

3. Innocent blood is accounted before God.
The God of the Bible is perfect and his judgments are true. The commandment of capital punishment is just another proof that God is.

GOD SAID in Exodus, chapter 20, verse 13:
Thou shalt not kill.

But if one commits murder, GOD SAID in Genesis, chapter 9, verse 6:
Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

MAN SAID, “The simple fact is that the death penalty has been a gross failure. Beyond its horror, it has neither protected the innocent nor deterred the wicked.”

Now you have THE RECORD.



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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. According to one of my religious friends....
od spoke to moses, then moses interperted.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. This friend is a disciple of a guy ...
who claimed that Christopher Reeve is in Hell ... because he didn't accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior. The guy is Bill Keller, and he is pretty twisted.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. That's rather mean PittLib
Especially since he goes to the same synnagogue as I do.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. What?
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. Nothing, nothing...
Let's just drop it
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formerrepuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. God didn't write the bible; men who thought they could communicate
with God wrote it. Some of them may have been schizophrenic- others had sexual hang-ups.
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Beaver Tail Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
61. Others were on Drugs
Edited on Wed Aug-03-05 06:16 PM by Beaver Tail
REV 10 : 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

REV 10 : 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

REV 10 : 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
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carnie_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. It's interesting
to me that most of these "people" conveniently ignore the new covenant in all their bible-thumping. Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy might and all thy soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself. What's so hard to understand about that?
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. God also said in Exodus...
That eating shellfish is an abomination -- the same word used to describe homosecuality in the same book. So, according to Exodus, eating a lobster is just as bad as gay sex.

Tell that one to the next fundie you argue with.
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BamaLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. And They Won't Know What To Say
They don't understand that that is THE OLD LAW!!! WE NO LONGER HAVE TO LIVE UNDER IT!!
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. The Mosaic Code is always fun to deal with, isn't it?
The Mosaic Code, the lawbook Moses used to deal with the ancient Hebrews, has two parts: moral sins and ceremonial uncleanliness.

Killing people, stealing and so on are moral sins. Boy, you gonna fry for those.

Ceremonial uncleanliness includes such items as eating shellfish, wearing garments of mixed fibers and having sex with your wife. Yup, if you have sex with your wife, you must wash each other after the act and you're ritually unclean until next sundown. Fortunately, you're not required to make any burnt offerings after sex--cause if you were, the turtledove would have gone extinct before Jesus was born.

I have long thought that the reason Leviticus 18:22 (Fred Phelps' reason to exist) was included in the Mosaic Code was the abominable juvenile death rate among the Levites. I figure they were probably losing 70 percent of their young'uns to disease, starvation, tigers, and other things that kill children. With a seventy percent mortality rate, only sex that has the potential for producing children could be tolerated.

What I didn't know is that the Code requires that someone not engage in more than one fundamental role. In gay sex, the bottom has to engage in two fundamental roles--that of a man, which he is, and also that of a wife.

Unfortunately for Phelps, if Lev. 18:22 describes an act of ceremonial uncleanliness, it's one of those laws like "don't eat shellfish." The law banning shellfish had a real reason to exist in Biblical times--no one knew what Red Tide was back then--but today we can check for histamines and dinoflagellates and not only do people eat shellfish, oyster roasts are popular church fundraisers in the Carolinas.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. And to help us laugh (so we don't cry...)
www.godhatesshrimp.com
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
45. Oh crap, I'm going to hell because I love lobster.
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BamaLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. What BS...
I would actually love to see it when God bitch slaps Republicans one by one when they depart this world. Hopefully I won't be going where they're headed. :nuke:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. Seeing that our legal system isn't based on the Bible
how is this relevant?

Of course, they want to change the US to a dominionist state, so that one day our laws WILL be based on their fucked up interpretation of the Bible.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. This religion thing is turning out to be a really bad idea.
Can we scrap it?
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Oh how I wish ...
"born agains" are seriously crazy.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. You should join the Atheist & Agnostic Group.
We're friendly.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Yeah ... I don't know what I am.
I don't really try to define myself ... I don't see religion as an external thing. Agnostic, perhaps. I'm sure I'd fit right in, because those who believe in literal translation of the Bible freak me out.

I'll be in London this Tuesday ... I have to PM you. The only plans we've made are Thursday (theater).
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. god has been the leading cause of death for millenia
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. god has been the leading cause of death for millenia
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. Okay, you're all going to get pissed, but I believe in the Death Penalty.
Edited on Wed Aug-03-05 11:51 AM by The Backlash Cometh
I absolutely do believe that it's a deterrence, because it's deterred me from committing murder many times over. PMS is a bitch.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Bwaaa ...
:rofl:

No kidding.
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. willing to go along with you on this...
but we have to get rid of the cruel and unusual part...I suggest we get rid of the do-not-go-gentle-into-that-goodnight lethal injection crap and move to execution by tree chipper. Feet first.
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. this was sarcasm....
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Sarcasm understood.
But I am serious about supporting the Death Penalty. Mainly because it keeps honest people honest.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Hmmm ...
I don't buy that ("it keeps honest people honest"). It places justice in an economic realm ... meaning the value of your life (and severity of your crime) is directly proportionate to the lawyer you can afford. I have a hard time believing that the death penalty is a deterrent.

For what it's worth ... a man in my city was just released from prison after nearly 20 years for a rape he did not commit (based on DNA evidence). 20 years is a big enough "oops" ... let alone someone's life.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05211/546262.stm
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. If you're concerned about fairness in sentencing, then address
the issues that make the system unfair. That would include racist treatment by the police force and court system in reference to minorities. Also, federal regulations of crime labs would help the system be more consistent.

However, I believe that, especially now when tensions are growing so high between neighbors due to the political atmosphere, that the DP is the one thing that makes me feel safe enough to go out and pick up the newspaper each morning from the driveway. I know Repubs in this town that are armed to their teeth and display their gun collections openly in game rooms; my neighbors are connected to motorcycle clubs which appear to be very redneck (one of them sat straddled across his motorcycle and stared at me when I went to check the mail the day after 9/11. His arms were crossed and he never cracked a smile.)

In fact, all you have to do is listen to the way rednecks talk to understand the level of hatred that they feel against anyone who isn't like them. Most of them are just venting, but I wonder what would happen in this state if they removed the Death Penalty. These are irrational times where Republicans honestly believe it's okay for a president like Bush to make a monumental mistake like the Iraq War because they secretly support the annhiliation of a culture that they feel is a threat to them. Well, guess what? Eventually, everyone becomes a threat to them. You just got to gut out their conversations and eventually they'll get around to you.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
57. The two are not mutually exclusive ...
Edited on Wed Aug-03-05 03:13 PM by PittLib
I do believe in improving the system, but if it was that simple ... we wouldn't be having this conversation. I also believe that when one decides to take another's life ... they aren't considering the repercussions, or if premeditated they do it believing that they will get away with it. I don't live fearfully and I am not afraid of death, per se. I do, however, fear hypocrisy and the death penalty crosses lines that I cannot rectify with my ideals. I am not religious - but I am not comfortable with the power of dispensing this ultimate sentence in the name of justice.

On edit: I also do not believe in judging people (in regards to the death penalty) within a social and economic structure that perpetuates racism and discrimination. My only choice is to fight against that ... not merely threaten people. How can you expect someone to fear the death penalty when they've been taught that their lives mean nothing anyway? The death penalty reinforces this lack of respect for life.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Ah, well, there's the difference between you and I.
It may not be fear, but I certainly am alarmed by all this talk of hate and killing coming from the right. They speak of it so freely and each time I speak to a right-wing relative, it seems to get
worse. I mean, at what point are we suppose to ignore that they're demonizing individuals, even Americans, to the point where the collective conclusion of the right is to stock up on guns to kill them if necessary? Perhaps I shock easier than you. Yes, I'm sure that's what it is.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Do you honestly believe that ...
the death penalty actually deters this? I mean, I understand that we live in political boiler ... which is scary, but do really think they would or would not do you harm based on whether they could be put to death for their crimes? Particularly fundies ... like they consider this when plotting to bomb an abortion provider. God's work and all ...
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Yes, I believe the death penalty is a deterrence.
I don't think you can use the abortion clinic bombings to answer for all fundies. In fact, I believe those bombings were counterproductive for them because the moderates began seeing the fundies for the wackos they are.

It's the civil crimes of opportunity I'm worried about. And if you don't live in an area that is thick with Republicans and hear the constant hatred which they spew, and this is from ordinary people, not just the crazy rednecks, then maybe you just don't have the background to understand what I'm talking about.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Actually, threats make people dishonest.
"I'll kill you if you don't confess!" - voila, instant forced confession.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Then work to make the system fairer.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I do.
I'm an Amnesty activist.

However, I live in a country that has abolished the death penalty. And guess what? Our murder rate is lower than that of the United states.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Are you more homogeneous than the U.S., perchance?
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. How do you mean?
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Japan is a homogenous nation.
Edited on Wed Aug-03-05 02:34 PM by The Backlash Cometh
The U.S. is multi-ethnic/multi-cultural.

I guess I'm asking, how tolerant is your country with regards to diversity?
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. We're extremely diverse.
Multi-ethnic and multi-cultural.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. Well, then bottle it and put it in our drinking wells.
Diversity seems to be a heated issue over here.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. What does "multi-ethnic/multi-cultural" have to do with the murder rate?
Pardon me if I misinterpret, but that sounds like "we have more minorities and minorities kill people."

And if the death penalty is the only thing keeping you from committing murder, well, that speaks for itself.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Er...no.
You're so off base that I'm not sure if it's worth addressing all the tangents you've taken off on like a sparkler on the Fourth of July. But, I will offer this, my first post to this thread was said in jest.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #58
63. That just sounded very Charlton Heston.
Sorry if I mistook that as serious.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. Hypo-Christians
They have twisted one of the most clear messages of the Bible as only they can.

Millions of Catholics and Christians around the world wear a crucifix around their necks daily. If Christ has died in an electric chair they would be wearing little electric chairs.

As Christ was being nailed to the cross he said "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do."

and they STILL don't!
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. In summary: kill 'em all and let gawd sort them out
I'm not a Christian and certainly no expert when it comes to the bible, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the Jesus guy had a completely different take on things. I could be wrong of course. I mean, who am I to understand what the word "kill" means, right? :eyes:

And they actually wonder why I don't want their bs in public schools.

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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. They also sacrificed animals in the OT times, they don't anymore
Except in Santeria or some other off-beat cult.
Our laws should not be based on religion.

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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. they only put the old testament on the Bible to keep it from be'n confused
with Buddhism.

I is apparent that Buddhism came down the Silk Road and Jesus thought compassion and the Middle Path was better than stoning your neighbors and family to death for silly infractions of Judaic law...

most of Old testament does not belong in the bible..
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. One of these days I'm going to walk up to a member of the 'Family'
and hand over some Commandments along with several pages of verse authored by...ME. Then, I'm going to tell them God spoke to me and told me to write these things. Praise the Lord!

Do you think they will follow me or call for an ambulence equipped with straightjacket?
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
27. So, is this a CHRISTIAN group?
Which, of course, is NEW TESTAMENT.

Was Jesus Pro-Death Penalty?

Seems like all the Pro-Death Penalty biblical arguments are rooted in the Old Testament preachings . . .
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I don't know where my friend gets this stuff ...
he is homebound and apparently only watches and listens to Christian television and radio. He is "born again", after an accident left him compromised.
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bornskeptic Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
30. If you don't like the real statistics, make up your own.
Edited on Wed Aug-03-05 01:11 PM by bornskeptic
When God says “Yes,” you can be certain that the champions of disobedience will say “No,” and so it is also concerning the matter of capital punishment. In 1972, capital punishment was banned in the United States but reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976. During the abolishment of the death penalty in the U.S., the murder rate increased 100%.

US murder rates from 1963 to 1980:
1963 4.6
1964 4.9
1965 5.1
1966 5.6
1967 6.2
1968 6.9
1969 7.3
1970 7.9
1971 8.6
1972 9.0
1973 9.4
1974 9.8
1975 9.6
1976 8.7
1977 8.8
1978 9.0
1979 9.8
1980 10.2

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

In fact, the murder rate increased every year in this period except for 1975 and 1976, two years when the death penalty was not allowed.

edited to add link
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Thanks ... I'll pass this along. nt
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. Ha ha ha..
I sent it ... and told him that critical thinking is a good thing. That making stuff up doesn't make it true. His response was "I love you." I take that to mean "you silly girl, one day you'll see the light" or "I am incapable of questioning, but I'll forgive you for doing so."
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Kalish Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. there's nothing a fundy loves more
than killing.
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TeddyKGB Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
39. Matthew 5:38-48
38 "You have heard that it was said, "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And that's Jesus talking, folks.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. What kind of Liberal crap is THAT????
:)
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. Why does Jesus hate America?
Excellent post, TeddyKGB! :thumbsup:
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
40. Jesus would probably be against the death penalty
Seeing how he was a victim of it. Just saying.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. He also saved the Prostitute from being stoned to death....
...and he forgave the murderer who dies on the cross next to him.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
42. This argument always gets me.
"Again, The New American article engaged the claims that the death penalty is racist. It reads:
The claim that the death penalty unfairly impacts blacks and minorities is a deliberate fraud. The majority of those executed since 1976 have been white, even though black criminals commit a slim majority of murders. If the death penalty is racist, it is biased against white murderers and not blacks.

According to the U.S. Bureau of Statistics, blacks committed 51.5% of murders between 1976 and 1999, while whites committed 46.5%. Yet even though blacks committed a majority of murders, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reports: “Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up the majority of those under sentence of death.” Whites continued to comprise the majority on death row in the year 2000 (1,990 whites to 1,535 blacks and 68 others). In the year 2000, 49 of the 85 people actually put to death were whites."

I will lay heavy odds that 95% of the VICTIMS were white - regardless of the race of the murderers. That's where the racism comes in - the revenge angle. Since both blacks and whites are less likely to get the DP for killing blacks, it is almost a statistical certainty that more whites will be executed because most murders are committed within the same race, mostly because of simple proximity.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
51. And Jesus said, "Go forth and kill every last evildoer who offends thee."
Uh, didn't JC actually **break up** the administration of capital punishment???? As in, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"

I musta gone to Sunday school at one of them lib'rul churches. :crazy:
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amjfv Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
52. As usual they avoid mentioning John 8
8:3
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
8:4
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
8:6
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8:8
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
8:9
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

In the old testament mankind is responsible for his own moral transgressions. Because people are manifestly incapable of living up to the standards set in Exodus, Leviticus etc, God provides Christ as an alternate mechanism by which people can attain salvation. However as a consequence of our moral imperfections we are incapable of making final moral judgements regarding others. It is morally absurd for a man who has broken certain commandments (coveting his neighbors wife, forgetting the sabath, using the name of the lord in vain) to condemn another man for committing a different sin (murder).
Consider this-- a person who is executed can no longer accept Christ. As such a decision to execute a person has the potential to cast not merely a final judgement on that person's life, but also a final judgement on his soul. As such we are invading territory that should belong to God and God alone. Christ himself-- who is, implicity, the lone sinless man, who would have the right to cast judgement on this woman-- demurs, and merely tells het to go and sin no more.

Also in response to the statistics used--(this is off the top of my head) Delaware is a rural state; Washington is a major city-- it would be absurd to expect DC to not have a greatly higher crime rate.

States with the death penalty generally tend to have higher murder rates than states without it. Death Penalty supporters might point out that these states have differing demographics-- which is a fair point. However North Dakota has the death penalty and a higher murder rate that South Dakota, which does not have the death penalty. One poll taken of (I believe) District attorneys, found that the death penalty was not considered a significant deterrent.

Crime also tends to respond to the shape of the economy as a whole; the early 70s saw not merely the temporary abolition of the death penalty, but also a major recession, stagflation etc.

I cannot say definitively that the DP is not a deterrent. However I will say that Christian supporters of the DP have to square their beliefs with the above passage from the Bible.
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amjfv Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Weird...
Some of those numbers turned into emoticons.
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PittLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Yeah - happened to me too ...
I had to insert a few spaces. The emoticon was sticking out its tongue ... I took it personally as mocking. :P
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