Toyota going "green" with hybrids? What CRAP.

[Tyler Durden]

http://www.dontcrush.com/images/EVWorld_10May05.pdf

The car companies have had FULLY FUNCTIONAL ELECTRIC VEHICLES for some time now.

The HIGHLY successful (in operation) Electric Version of the Toyota RAV4 is being pulled off lease and the units CRUSHED to make a new market for their new Hybrids. PIGS.

The GM EV-1? EXTINCT
We actually built production parts for that one. They hauled them in, and crushed them.

The TH!NK from Ford? Rescued by the Norwegians.
They were crushing them to extinction, but the Norwegians occupied their Norway headquarters to make them give them back.

The HONDA Electric Accord? EXTINCT.
Hauled them back off lease, Crushed 'em.

AND the Toyota Electic RAV4? ENDANGERED.
THEY WON'T EVEN LET THE CURRENT LEASEES BUY THE DAMNED THINGS. They want them back to crush them.

Why would a car company WITHDRAW a FUNCTIONAL ELECTRIC VEHICLE to tout their "NEW, IMPROVED HYBRID"?? Money and Marketing.

Yeah. Toyota is greening up with hybrids. What BULLSHIT. Kool-aid packaged in the guise of a car.

[Ian David]

1. Sign-up for HarrisPoll Online and share your thoughts. n/t

[Tyler Durden]

2. Too late by 5 years.

Besides, they don't call me anymore. I think they rotate.

Unless of course you're being sarcastic. I DO work in the auto industry, but the way, and am privy to a lot of this shit.

[Ian David]

6. Cool. Keep staying on top of this for us. It's important that we know this

[Tyler Durden]

14. Try this one: "theaircar.com"

runs 100 km/hr (about 65 mph) for 350 km (about 225 miles)

a PERFECT commuter vehicle that uses on board 110 v compressor, home installed 110 or Solar/wind charged compressor, or a commercial commpressor network. the commercial network could recarge the tank in less than 3 minutes.

Mexico City was ready to start using Air Car Taxis until VW "silkwooded" that deal.

[LibertyorDeath]

78. Wow thanks for the link to this

The basic principles of the CAT´s 34 Engine

This engine was developed between the end of 2001 and the beginning of 2002. It uses an innovative system to control the movement of the 2nd generation pistons and one single crankshaft. The pistons work in two stages: one motor stage and one intermediate stage of compression/expansion.

The engine has 4 two-stage pistons, i.e. 8 compression and/or expansion chambers. They have two functions: to compress ambient air and refill the storage tanks; and to make successive expansions (reheating air with ambient thermal energy) thereby approaching isothermic expansion.



Its steering-wheel is equipped with a 5kW electric moto-alternator. This motor is simultaneously:

* the motor to compress air
* the starting motor
* the alternator for recharging the battery
* an electric moderator/brake
* a temporary power supply (e.g. for parking)

No clutch is necessary. The engine is idle when the car is stationary and the vehicle is started by the magnetic plate which re-engages the compressed air. Parking manoeuvres are powered by the electric motor.


http://www.theaircar.com/

[Tyler Durden]

81. I re-post this site about once a week....

Thanks for being one of the few who's paid attention.

Everyone else is getting in line for their NEW, COOL PRIUS!!!!

I guess a zero emmissions vehicle is a bit much for them to "get."

[LibertyorDeath]

83. It's amazing this is definitely part of the answer to the worlds

fuel & pollution problems.

I'm still reading about this truly ingenious engine.

Thanks again I'll send the link to everyone I know.

Welcome to the future!

After twelve years of reserch and development, Guy Negre has developed an engine that could become one of the biggest technological advances of this century. Its application to CAT vehicles gives them significant economical and environmental advantages. With the incorporation of bi-energy (compressed air + fuel) the CAT Vehicles have increased their driving range to close to 2000 km with zero pollution in cities and considerably reduced pollution outside urban areas.
As well, the application of the MDI engine in other areas, outside the automotive sector, opens a multitude of possibilities in nautical fields, co-generation, auxiliary engines, electric generators groups, etc. Compressed air is a new viable form of power that allows the accumulation and transport of energy. MDI is very close to initiating the production of a series of engines and vehicles. The company is financed by the sale of manufacturing licences and patents all over the world.


http://www.theaircar.com/models.html

MDI CAT´s compressed air technology cars.

MDI introduces compressed air vehicles to the market.


MDI has developed a high performance compressed air technology. When it is compared to traditional gasoline powered engines, MDI´s engine is far superior in terms of energy used and thermodynamics.

An overview of the air car
The technology that MDI vehicles use is not new, in fact it had been around for years. Compressed air technology allows for engines that are both non polluting and economical. After ten years of research and development, MDI is prepared to introduce its clean vehicles onto the market. Unlike electric or hydrogen powered vehicles, MDI vehicles are not expensive and do not have a limited driving range. MDI cars are affordable and have a performance rate that stands up to current standards. To sum it up, they are non-expensive cars that do not pollute and are easy to get around cities in.


Two technologies have been developed to meet different needs:

* Single energy compressed air engines
* Dual energy compressed air plus fuel engines

The single energy engines will be available in both Minicats and Citycats. These engines have been conceived for city use, where the maximum speed is 50 km/h and where MDI believes polluting will soon be prohibited. It is already possible see examples of this in some places, such as London, where you want to enter the city center with gasoline powered vehicles, you must pay a fee.

The duel energy engine, on the other hand, has been conceived as much for the city as the open road and will be available in all MDI vehicles. The engines will work exclusively with compressed air while it is running under 50 km/h in urban areas. But when the car is used outside urban areas at speeds over 50 km/h, the engines will switch to fuel mode. The engine will be able to use gasoline, gas oil, bio diesel, gas, liquidized gas, ecological fuel, alcohol, etc.

Both engines will be available with 2, 4 and 6 cylinders, When the air tanks are empty the driver will be able to switch to fuel mode, thanks to the car's on board computer.

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. theaircar.com is currently not responding to me

but here's an interesting article from the Daily Telegraph in the UK, from the beginning of this year. It's sounding more practical than when I last read about it (then, the long test drive they'd managed was just a few km):

How does MiniCATS compare with an electric car? "In the CityCATs, we have 52 megajoules, which is not a lot of energy, but it is a bit more than the electric version of the Peugeot 106/Citroën Saxo, which produces about 37-39 megajoules. And that is a lot heavier than ours, so it uses a lot more energy. Filling our tank uses more energy than charging batteries. But globally, the efficiency of this kind of car is better than an electric car, because of the lower weight." A MiniCATS weighs only 550kg (10·8cwt). Other advantages over "pure" electric vehicles are lower build and running costs, improved range (especially with the external combustion option) and refills that are quicker than recharges; a refill at an "air station" will take about as long as a refill of a petrol car, while overnight refills can be achieved by plugging into the mains.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2005/01/01/emfmdi01.xml&sSheet=/motoring/2005/01/01/ixmot.html

[wtmusic]

3. Something doesn't add up here

If the cars are profitable, they would sell them. Unless the profit margin were ridiculously higher for hybrids, and I don't believe that's the case. I might be wrong.

[Tyler Durden]

4. What's PROFITABLE is what they can build a MILLION of.

AND what they don't have to CHANGE ALL THEIR TOOLING FOR.

You don't REALLY think they "redesigned" your whole car for this year, do you?

We've molded some of the same engine parts since 1997.

IT IS MOST PROFITABLE FOR THEM TO CHANGE NOTHING AND MARKET TOWARD THAT.

[wtmusic]

10. Well it seems that if

they've already made them the tooling is already in place, and they'd want to see a return on their investment.

[Tyler Durden]

17. Try this:

If I make 1 million SUVs at a profit of $2000 a car, or
200,000 electric vehicles at break even for the next 5 years (due to start up, new marketing, new supplier networks)....

Which scenario is going to get me replaced by management?

[wtmusic]

25. Oh come on

Now we're off of tooling and into marketing...

They would spend the same marketing dollars on any new model, and their supplier networks are already in place.

If there is a huge difference in profit margin you have a point. I just haven't heard that this is the case.

[Tyler Durden]

30. You don't work for these criminals. I do.

Or at least I work for a parts supplier. It is ALL about TOOLING AND MARKETING: the tools we just recycled were originally costed out to GM at OVER $75,000 EACH, and that's just for some Dashboard nacelles.

The idea is to CHANGE NOTHING, but make YOU the sucker consumer think it's BRAND NEW AND IMPROVED!!!

By the way, at 55 mph my 1997 Saturn SL2 gets 35 MPG. That's HYBRID range, or at least in spitting distance, AND the Geo Metro got 48 MPG, so what's the big whoop for 35-40 MPG on most hybrids?

MARKETINGMARKETING
MARKETINGMARKETING
MARKETINGMARKETING
MARKETINGMARKETING
MARKETINGMARKETING
MARKETINGMARKETING
MARKETINGMARKETING

[jobycom]

33. At 70n my Prius gets 48.5 mpg. At 55 I could hold the mileage over 50 MPG

So your Saturn is a long way from hybrid range. And that's with just a decade or so of research. Another decade could double that. A Geo Metro is a very small car, and not practicle for many families. A Prius is a mid-size sedan, and even when driven like a NASCAR vehicle gets well above 35-40 MPG.

And that's not even mentioning the partial-zero emmissions.

And yes, it's all about marketing. You'll have to change the basic concept of our economy before that will change. The secret is to use marketing to your advantage, and that's what's happening with hybrids.

Getting better now is more important than a distant goal of perfection.

[Tyler Durden]

34. How much is your Hybrid?

How many "Joe and Jane Normal's" can or will be able to afford one?

Our parking lot here is filled with used cars. If you can't offer your Hybrid for less than 15 thou, it's of no value.

As to driving it like NASCAR, time to gracefully let go the things of your youth. The world can no longer afford it.

As to the gas mileage:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/28/eveningnews/consumer/main620265.shtml

I search most recent sites, and they are very evasive: "...yours may vary..." "...low resistance tires may assist..."

I get enough of that from Bush.

[Sparkman]

41. Detroit offers $10K per year incentive to INLIST in Bushs pipeline police!

Who else pays for the EXORBITANT prices of the military's equipment besides the taxpayer? Let's put ALL of the cards on the table, Detroit is subsidised by the war profiteers and that includes the Detroit Auto Industry!

[jobycom]

59. 21K, and the insurance is low.

This was only after about 20 miles, as I recall (the peace sign blocks the miles). The car measures the mileage per tankful, so each time you refill this gauge resets. Also, you tend to average lower when the tank gets lower, although I've noticed that the gas gauge reads lower than actual gas remaining when it gets low, too.

I recently went from Austin to Gulfport and back, and driving around the speedlimit--between 65 and 75--I averaged just under fifty. I've driven 60 before to Houston, and kept it over 50 the whole way. I'm sure anyone else with a PRius can back this up--it's not unusual mileage.

Here's the deal: You're attacking the car company with the best mileage and the lowest emmissions cars on the market for not being perfect enough. That's bullshit. Perfection is the enemy of progress.

[Tyler Durden]

65. YOU are missing my point.

Toyota had a perfectly good full electric vehicle, and they wanted to SCRAP it for no damned good reason other than MARKETING THEIR "NEW" HYBRIDS.

I don't fault your MOTIVES for supporting your Hybrid, I just ask that you face the fact that it's part of a MARKETING scheme.

As to my ol' Saturn...The environment was saved the 10 TONS of raw material and energy consumption it would have taken me to get a NEW car, AND it cost me about $2900 two years ago.

If I got to pay $20K+ for a car or walk, then I'm afraid it's Shanks Mare for me: I don't have that kind of money.

[Beaverhausen]

69. I just got a Prius- my old car was a 13 year old Civic

The emissions out of that thing were nearly off the chart. It wouldn't have passed the smog check this year.

As far as the price, I got a much lowered rate on my car loan for buying a hybrid. I also get $60 a month from my employer for driving it. I paid sticker price - no "premium." And I will get a $2000 tax deduction.

So is it OK with you that I got a new car that has nearly zero emissions and uses 1/3 less gas?

I don't understand why you are being so negative about hybrids.

[jobycom]

73. YOU miss mine

No one was buying the electric cars. It's not marketing, it's capitalism. If people were scooping up the electrics, we'd be mourning the loss of the hybrids. These things don't get made for free.

And electrics are worthless to someone who has to drive as much as I do, so the Prius is the best thing on the market.

As for the Prius, it replaced my 92 Mazda 929. My other car is an 83 MB Diesel that I am hoping to convert to WVO, or at least run it on biodiesel. I tend to put over 200K on my cars, and keep them until they are well over 10 years old. The Prius is the first car I bought new in twenty years. So don't lecture me, I'm very involved in the issue.

Toyota is a hero. Quit trashing the good guys. Go after Hummer.

[Tyler Durden]

76. Anyone who feels that the purchase of a NEW CAR...

...in any way, shape, or form is PRODUCTIVE is kidding themselves.

And NO ONE was buying the electrics because THE FUCKING CAR COMPANIES were fighting tooth and nail NOT to make them. The only Commercial for an alternative vehicle was a Fuel Cell pickup, DONE IN CANADA.

25% of production in TEN YEARS as hybrids??? Well GEE. Let me kiss their asses. When all the High Tech GARBAGE in your PRIUS craps out in 5 years, I wonder how marketable it will be in the used arena?

WE JUST CAN'T KEEP BUILDING THE DAMNED CARS: THAT IS THE POINT.

[jobycom]

80. You're still attacking the good guys.

Stop it. Attack the biggest problem. Sorry you don't like your employer. I don't like my job, either.

People weren't buying the electrics because they didn't fit anyone's needs. And they do run off power, it's just created out of sight.

Your car was new once, too. Until you start walking or biking, you are part of the auto food chain, too. Like me, you prefer to reduce your impact as much as possible. But you are still part of the problem. The problem won't be fixed by Toyota running commercials on cars that sit on lots collecting dust.

[Tyler Durden]

82. They are NOT the "GOOD GUYS"

I'll try one more time:

www.theaircar.com/

www.dontcrush.com/

The ONLY reason these cars didn't catch on was MARKETING and NATIONAL PRIORITIES TO MAKE TONS OF CASH FOR THE AUTO COMPANIES.

If you can't catch that, I can't help you. And YES, my 1974 Cycles Gitane Interclub 10 speed gets TONS of use, as do my shoes.

[jobycom]

84. I skimmed your links

The cars weren't marketed because they weren't marketable. I'm the perfect target for them. I wanted an electric car when I bought the Prius. I researched them. It just wasn't workable. Had nothing to do with marketing.

Toyota is the good guy. They deserve our support. Sorry you don't like your employer, I don't like my job either.

As for my bike, I rode it almost everywhere until my kids were born. It's hard to haul two kids on a Gary Fisher. It's hard to walk anywhere with a six year old in 105 degree whether, too. I do what I can. That's what everyone should do.

[Sparkman]

39. Well, when the BLOOD SPILT for the gas-guzzlers gets proper MSM coverage

THEN the subtle dependance of Detroit, Oil and the Pentagon to hide the real cost of that gallon of gas. BLOOD for oil is a reality, that takes time for the guilty to admit, which depends on us for a faster national consciencness EVOLUTION, Baby!

[Conservativesux]

93. Not going to happen. The corporations wont ever let it happen.

But it's still true :(

[WoodrowFan]

45. retooling

they wouldn't have to retool EVERYTHING in the plant except in the engine plant. My Dad the engineer designed automobile plants for GM and they were ALWAYS retooling something, replacing a conveyor system with a new one, or redoing the painting system, or adding in a new section so some new feature could be added to the vehicles coming down the line. It never stopped. The idea that they wouldn't sell a new type of car because they'd have to retool a factory is silly as they are always retooling anyway. It didn't stop them from changing over from cars to SUVS or minivans and that was easily as big a change if not bigger than switching from internal combustion cars to electric cars. If they could make money selling the electrics you mention, they'd sell them too.


BTW, my next car will be a hybrid and hopefully the one after that will be an electric...

[still_one]

9. here is the problem

right now hybrids have a 5 to 7 K premium price over there internal gas equivalents.

Some hybrids such as the accord or escape only get about 30 mpgs. This is NOT necessarily cost effective. A honda civic internal combusion engine gets more than that. A honda CRV SUV gets about 27 MPG. Those vechiles are NOT cost effective with the premium price that add to it.

On the other hand the prius, insight, or honda civic hybrid do pay for themselves because the millage is significantly better, and the base cost is less than the escape or accord.

There is NOT one solution. We must do everything, but it has to be cost effective

Incidently, I have two hybrids, a Prius first generation, and second generation.

Diesel engines are also an alternative, along with hydrogen fuel cells

electric cars are NOT cost effective for the price they charge, and have very little range

The hybrids by Toyota and Honda have almost zero emissions

[wtmusic]

12. interesting

happy with your Pri-i? Looking at that as a next car.

[still_one]

19. extremely happy, and definitely recommend

The second generation improved on power, better fuel millage, and cleaner emissions.

The civic hybrid may be another car you want to look at also

what is nice is when you are stopped the gas engine shuts off, and you are completely on electric power. Also when you release the accelerator

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. I just looked at a Prius YESTERDAY at the dealership

because that's gonna be my next car. AWESOME vehicle. The mileage blows my mind. You get a LOT of car for the money too. The one we looked at was a #6 package Prius, FULLY loaded. $26,000. It had the navigation system, Bluetooth, 6 CD player, cruise control, ect...It was the first one I've been able to sit in and check out. I really LIKED it! My ONLY concern is the price of replacing the battery pack. $1000-$3000????? OUCH! That would hurt. Toyota has said they have never had to replace the battery pack and they have been tested and will last 150,000-200,000 miles. The only battery packs they have ever had to replace are cars that have been in accidents. Do you have any more information on the battery packs that you could offer me? They also say the prices should go down as more cars are sold, which makes sense, I guess? :shrug:

I really love the look of the Prius. It's different. Not having a key to start the car was pretty cool and a Push button starter! I remember those from years gone by. ;) In just 3 more months I will be able to order my car. :bounce: I can't wait!

[Massacure]

89. The batteries have a 8 year / 100,000 mile warrenty if I recall correctly.

[Sparkman]

103. Lithium Ion Batteries not unlike the rechargables in Laptop computers.

VERY high cycle life, shelf life, and energy storage density which is a weight/size advantage.
Deep cycle marine batteries (lead acid) are limited to 500-1200 cycles depending on how depleted or how far you drive. Still a useful low tech standard. NEV's (like golf cart type) all use them for lowest cost. The lead acid just suffer from weight and lifetime limits, but per mile the lowest cost EV power pack technology.

[Massacure]

105. Lithium is too rare to use for cars.

[Ian David]

27. At that rate, it would take you six days to kill yourself on auto exhaust

You'd have to be sure to keep the A/C running (so the motor stays on). But at that rate, you'd die of dehydration first.

How do they sell these things?

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. I drive a Honda CRV

and I have NEVER gotten anywhere near 27 mpg. The best I get is 24 mpg on long highway trips. My normal mpg is 20 - 22.

[Conservativesux]

92. You need to sell it if you cant get 30 MPG out of that car easy.....

Hell, I had a full-sized American pickup truck that would pull 20-21 MPG on the freeway and 18 MPG in the city.

A Honda CRV should be doing way better on gas milage then what you are getting.

[JVS]

96. How do you drive it? Do you speed?

[still_one]

5. sorry but all electric calls are NOT that clean

when you plug them in your home outlet, how do you think the energy comes from to recharge the battery? It is NOT that clean the energy that is generated by your electric company

In addition, the range is dismal at best on all electric cars

Hybrids are a transition into fuel cells and other more appropriate means

[Tyler Durden]

8. Hydrogen is made by ELECTRICITY.

So there goes your "Clean Fuel" unless you've got Clean Electricity and then why aren't you building Electric Vehicles.

Detroit ran ELECTRIC buses until the 60's. The technology is as old as internal combustion, it's just not "profitable" to change the assembly lines and the parts.

I suggest you do some reasearch into TH!NK, EV-1 AND E RAV4. Range/speed was perfect unless you want to commute 300 miles a day.

Time to STOP trying to make the new vehicles into 427 Cobra Jet Mustangs and come to the party: Global Warming dictates the new paradigm.

[still_one]

13. first of all you are talking mass transit which is different

I have done research and own two hybrids. The electric cars are TOO EXPENSIVE and are NOT cost effective. It has to make business sense also, and people will NOT buy it

the current hybrids almost have zero emissions, in fact they are rated as an ultra low emission vehicle

hydrogen fuel cells do make electricity, BUT they are self sufficient, you do NOT need to plug them IN to your house current, and people do NOT want that. There is a reason they were NOT successful. Mass transit is another issue, and subways and light rails it will work

[Ian David]

15. They're SUPER-ultra-low-emission vehicles

I resent having my car referred to as merely "ultra."

:P

[still_one]

20. sorry, LOL

[Ian David]

21. We should have solar-powered hydrogen electrolyzers in our homes

They should be integrated into a gray-water recycling system in every house.

It certainly wouldn't be enough alone to power your car, but:

1) It could co tribute some power to the fuelcell
2) It would help clean the gray-water (with 02 or O3) to be less stinky

[still_one]

23. everything should be tried

[Ian David]

11. Agreed. What we need now are hybrids that rely more on electric

Right now, my Prius uses mostly the gas engine and occasionally kicks-in the electric.

Also, people sell kits that allow you to plug-in your Toyota hybrid for more charging, but Toyota discourages it.

If I run out of gas, I can crawl along at 30 MPH for about 5 miles on just electric.

But boy, does my car hate it! It strains and hesitates and then the "General Alarm" light stays on until you re-set it.

I don't see any reason why Toyota can't:

1) Design a hybrid that can drive 5-15 miles using mostly electric, kicking in the gas engine only when needed.

2) Add thin-film solar panels to the roof for extra charging.

3) Sell solar-powered charging-stations that you can keep at your house.

In other words, I think the hybrid is designed backward.

It's a gasoline car that uses an electric motor when it can.

What it should be is an electric car that uses a gasoline motor when it has to.

[still_one]

16. The hybrids toyota and honda are working on are a transition

eventually hydrogen fuel cell cars will take over, but it will be in about ten years

I have to Prius, first and second generation, which both get about 45 mpgs, and the gas engine shuts off in stop and go traffic, and whenever you release the accelerator. The design is NOT bad, and does pollute considerably less

[Conservativesux]

94. Dont bet on HFC powered cars anytime soon. Too expensive...

and the platinum on this planet is in short supply.

[jobycom]

32. Another advantage in hybrid research

Electric engines run off electricity, and you (so far) have to plug them in, which is still reliant on power plants and fuel, as you point out.

Hybrids are studying how to turn a car's natural motion into electricity to charge its own batteries. Great advances have been made in even the last five years. Now that hybrids are such sellers, there are a lot of cars to study, and a lot more money to invest in research. That research is moving towards a car that powers itself more and more. This technology could even help to make fully electric cars more viable.

[cornermouse]

61. You don't plug a civic hybrid in.

[jobycom]

63. Exactly as I said, right.

[cornermouse]

85. Sorry. I misunderstood.

[cornermouse]

60. You don't have to plug the Honda Civic Hybrid in...

You just drive it down the road. :)

[Sparkman]

98. Here's an EV, with a 230 mile range, using litium ion batteries. Cost $70K

Look at Electovaya's MAYA 100, an SUV that has a 230 mile RANGE!
It's a freeway driver, full SUV. VERY KOOL. Look to Norway, leading the world on EV and innovation for their utilization and priority emphasis on a national scale. www.greencarcongress.com
www.elecrifyingtimes.com

As far as generation polution, what about using off-peak unused capacity like at night when the juice is literally free, especially in hydro-electric regions. If the generators are spinning and lightly loaded as at night, adding the load of thousands of EVs is literally cost free to the power plant. If you want the calcs for Joule Energy or kiloWatt-hour, voltage or current requirements for any EV charging, I'll be glad to assist. NO BLOOD FOR OIL!

[Hav]

7. .

Electric motors should actually be really efficient, right? At least in other fields I heard of numbers that were way above 90%.
Maybe anyone with more knowledge and experience could tell me why they don't seem to be popular?

[jobycom]

18. Electric cars haven't sold, hybrids do. What's better, a hybrid being sold

or a bunch of electric cars sitting on a lot, unsold, while a business goes bankrupt for having made vehicles no one is buying? We have a local dealer advertising electric cars, and boasting that you can go 30 miles without a charge. This is Texas. People drive 30 miles to go to work.

The technology is there, the time isn't right for electrics. When it's right, they can make them again. Until then, hybrids are a better answer than SUVs and Grand Marquises.

Biodiesel or vegetable oil diesels are cleaner than hybrids, too, but again, no market yet.

[still_one]

22. you hit the nail right on the head

compared to most gasoline engine cars today, the hybrids are so much cleaner. Everything helps until hydrogen fuel cells or some other technology replaces it

[Ian David]

24. One subway station here reserved six spots for electric-vehicles only

They even installed charging units where you could plug-in your car and charge it for free.

You didn't even need to pay to park your vehicle in those spots.

I think I have only seen ONE of those stations being used ONCE.

After two years, they gave up and just put plastic bags over the charging stations.

[Sparkman]

37. The practiality of ZEV's comes when oil subsidies & dead soldiers factor

in. The OIL monopolies secretly suck the life blood out of our country by requiring U.S. military expeditures to insure the OIL FLOW.
Take that "secret" subsidy away from the oil industry, and the TRUE COST of our gas guzzlers will come home to roost. Innovators, men & women of vision who are dedicating their carrears and fortunes to green technologies SHOULD BE HELD UP AS HEROES,not the military madness that dominates the video games, the movie industry and the MSM.

[Fescue4u]

26. Why they crush them

At first it seems Rude and wasteful to force the leased vehicles back to the manufacturer to be crushed.

Many owners are have begged GM to not crush their EV-1, and have some have offered top dollar far above lease residual to keep them.

But the reason that manufacturers do is, is that if they sell EVEN one of these pilot program vehicles to an ex-leese, the manufacturer is then obligated to manufacture and stock parts for the vehicle for the next 5 (might be 10) years!

SO while it looks strange that a car company won't sell a vehicle thats its going to crush, the legality is that if they do, they are obligated to spend a huge amount of money in stocking and manufacturing spare parts.

In the end, the cheapest thing to do with these "car betas" is to crush them at the end of the program. (in fact thats a major reason *WHY* they were lease only programs in the first place)

[Tyler Durden]

31. They've ALREADY sold cars....

So under your scenario, they're already screwed.

By the way, I have supplier Waranty experience, and I have never seen the requirement you state. The only requirements the OEM's use is the one tied to the WARANTY, or if they are using the same part in a newer vehicle, which happens all the time.

[Fescue4u]

62. Nope

They leased them to customer

The manufacturer always owned the cars and never sold them.

Its akin to renting an apartment.

How else could GM force everyone to turn them in to be crushed??? Eminent Domain isnt that bad (yet) :)

You're proably never ran into this situation because it just doesnt happen. Manufacturers normally WANT to sell parts. But this is a little different in that these are essentially beta programs from the manufacturer and have very low production numbers.

[Tyler Durden]

64. BEEEP! Sorry, Wrong Answer.

Check the "Don't Crush" site. The lady's SO had already purchased his RAV4 from Toyota.

Moot.

[Fescue4u]

66. lol

yea, i guess GM just hates money.

Its a suprise that they even charge money for their cars, since selling them is just a hassle.

[Sparkman]

79. GM could sell right to manufacture repair parts to 3rd party, which is HUG

E industry, still, in the U.S. Ever hear of AFTERMARKET? Licensing would have solved GMS problem, but they closed the EV2, second generation plant, and it was under pressure to avoid non-fossil markets & the stigma they held then and today for the IN CROWD of U.S. automakers.

[trekbiker]

28. Electric vehicles are a tiny market.

Until significant breakthru's in storage (battery) technology occur the all-electric vehicle is doomed to a tiny portion of the overall vehicle market. They are, and will continue to be an insignificant factor in reducing the world's dependency on oil. Also, they are not "clean" if you have to charge one up with electricity generated from a coal fired generating plant. And the "hassle factor" with these cars is huge... charging up every night, extremely limited range, etc. They could potentially have a viable market with people in urban settings who have very short commutes.

If a breakthru in battery technology can allow far greater energy storage then all-electric will be more practical. Also, recent developments in fast charge lithium battery technology may point the way to far greater efficiencies in regenerative braking. Regenerative braking on current gas/electric hybrids is very inefficient due to the slow charge rates and small size of the batteries. I think big breakthru's in this area will occur in the next few years. This will be a big boost to hybrids as well as all-electric vehicles.

the future, at least for the next 20 years, belongs to the gas/diesel-electric hybrid. Practical and cost effective fuel cells are a long way off. also, platinum is a limited natural resource which will be a problem for a fuel cell vehicle fleet.

[Sparkman]

43. Charge at night, when generators are coasting, cost's NIL at power plant!

Night generators when demand is VERY LOW, can easily provide subsidized power to EV owners. Will Detroit Lobbyists block legislation to offer incentives to go EV?

[Johonny]

29. Well

The electric cars I have seen

A) dont have high horse power
B) have lousy range
C) Don't sell
D) Are not cheap

To date none of those problems have been solved.

[Sparkman]

35. Here's some ZEV web sites, and some fuel economy resources...

Hooray for TOYOTA! Prius brags 60/51mpg ! Detroit cancelled the pure electric EV-1, for "profit", with orders in the hundreds unfilled!

The FORD Escape's hev(hybrid elec.) van claims 31 city mpg, Lexus RX400h brags about HP & craps out at 26 mpg, not impressive. See more for yourself www.fueleconomy.gov

Honda says 25% of it's fleet will be Hybrids by 2010! That's shoving their Dominance in the face
of detroit's Reluctance.

Pure electrics, with 40 mile range for commuters are today's technology modified's, which a good
mechanic can accomplish in a week using his familiar model car/truck. Retrofit companies can be
located, to start: www.elecrifyingtimes.com

The U.S. average fuel economy ( all vehicle types) has been 21 mpg since 1989! Heres a nice site
for ZEV data & news: www.greencarcongress.com

Norway's the leader in ZEV use and support. The Electovaya, Inc. offers a lithium ion battery
SUV (Maya 100) that has maximum range=200+ miles!!! It is a full size SUV, $70K

The U.S. road warrior mentality, Hummer's and Giant SUV's as "necessities" is rapidly subsiding,
some day soon we'll eat up all of the available Green Vehicles' Japan, Germany & China can
produce.

[PATRICK]

36. GE goes Green

(Not only car companies are suing that line).If you can fill in headlines like that with non-skeptical hope the Brooklyn Bridge is again for sale- cheap. It seems to be the latest PR fad to placate an alarming consumer disaffection with ruinous dinosaurs.

Maybe they are using recyclable paper to print their lies on, who knows.
Hybrids was a weak delusion years ago and it is still being touted as both new and THE solution. Using disappearing gas half as fast at twice the price. Wow. Consumers must really get excited about these saviors.

Oh, and the automakers used as part of that pitch way back a few years ago, that people would feel more comfortable with some traditional gas in their cars and were not ready to give it up. What a piece of shoddy car salesmanship. If a guy selling you a lemon tried that line you'd know what it was.

[Sparkman]

40. There are dozens of ZEV manufacturers, NONE are in Detroit.

The www.electrifyingtimes.org, www.greencarcongress.com sites link to so many ZEV resources it's surprising.
Any decent mechanic can drop an electric motor and controller and battery rack into a mini pickup for $7000. They seem to be limited to 40 mile ranges, at sub freeway speeds. BUT NEV's, glorified golf carts for neighborhoods (neighborhood electric vehicles) are available for $3000 brand new, off the shelf. Lee Iococa is involved in Palm Spring's Ca., company, Lido, Inc. for starters. Las Vegas has a rental company for the slow NEV's using the GEM and the Lido battery cars.

[PATRICK]

44. Glorified golf carts is right

I saw one and you might as well get one of those senior go carts. But thirty years ago at college I saw an alternative fuel car. A curiosity and not to remark upon. After all, unless the big guy brings it out it's only a toy right? I kick myself for not finding more out about it. A small car but not a open golf cart or expanded Segway.

This easy transition period using these ridiculous hybrids IMO will be an untimely disaster because the logic for such a step has already been long over delayed. History will sweep past these gizmos like Beta recorders were by VHS. Of course the consequences will be vastly more painful.

[Sparkman]

47. Hybrids are to complex. ALL railroads use DIESEL " ELECTRIC"

there's no transmission, just a motor-generator set that speeds up as the diesel motor revs up, spinning the generator faster and armature/stator outputs more Watts, the best most reliable system yet.
BUT trains have little SPACE/WEIGHT limitations like personal autos.
The truly electric trains in use in So. Cal (one Red Line goes around SanDiego and to the border) the trolly systems work cheaply if the KW hour demands on the generating stations can be handled.
Over night battery charging of EV busses and city service vehicles, like p/u trucks of the Edison Co. costs us litteraly nil, since the power plants spin generators all night with unused capacity.

[AX10]

42. kick

[OrlandoGator]

46. Electric cars need electricity to recharge the batteries...

...electricity comes from fossil fuels and nuclear fission.

Electric cars are only "green" to the end user. Biodiesel is a better answer to our needs, in my opinion.

[Sparkman]

48. Power plants spin generators all night with unused capacity, literaly free

IF we charge EV's at night! Bio Diesel should be instituted and subsidized immediately, to reduce fuel costs, pollution and IMPROVE DIESEL horse power AND stop waisting used cooking oils, which seem to need minimal filtering from Winchells and Chinese restaurants!

[OrlandoGator]

49. Generation capacity matches demand very closely.

That's how power companies make money. They don't produce megawatts that don't get sold.

[Sparkman]

50. That's were the PUBLIC in public utilities comes to the plate. LEGESLATION

is the only way to break the strangle hold of the energy companies, that are raking in the profits in their monopolies.

[OrlandoGator]

51. The customer actually benefits greatly from the competition.

The dispatcher establishes the demand and takes the lowest bid to generate the megawatts needed. The power industry is far less monopolistic than you think.

If power companies take the risk and absorb the costs of maintaining equipment, why shouldn't they be allowed to profit?

What we need regulation of is the grid infrastructure.

[Sparkman]

53. Well, scandal in So. Cal energy overcharging=monopoly. Let TAX $$

provide the subsidies. The military budget is bloated, and IT SUBSIDIZES THE OIL INDUSTRY. How much per barrel for dead GI's and taxes diverted to the war profiteers?
Better spent on good ideas, like charging EV's off peak, at night.
Allow me, when the generators are spinning at minimum load, fuel use of online generators (running at 1/8 output), then we add load for some EV's & the load increases from 1/8 to say 1/4 output), fuel use doesn't double, insted it's a minimal increase. It's the same as running the car's head lights, which requires 0.25 hp over the 15hp that the cars already expending to pull the vehicle, which is nil.
And hydro-electric dams spin generators with no appreciable increase in cost from low to moderate loads.

[Sparkman]

95. NO SPIN unclear? I don't mean NO LOAD, which is VERY different.

[Massacure]

90. Power plants do no spin creating unused capacity.

That would be a great way to destroy a lot of very expensive equipment.

[Sparkman]

97. NO LOAD, diconnecting transmission lines is not what I mean. unused

capacity simply is the condition where the customer LOAD is well below the systems full generating potential. The nightly drop in load simply leaves a surplus of CAPACITY available for the additional EV charging by the public, of our EVs? Simple power concepts, learnable and well understood.

[Massacure]

99. But they still have to burn fossil fuels to use that capacity.

Which defeats the point of not burning fossil fuels in cars.

[Sparkman]

102. Hydro Electric don't. AND spin'g generator@1/8 vs 1/2 capacity costs abou

t the same, fuel and equip-wear about the same! It's like in your car. When your driving down the freeway, constant speed, you require 15 horse power from the engine. Turn on headlights, the alternator puts out say 1000 Watts, about 1.33 horse pwr. The new power requirement is 15+1.33 = 16.33 HP
The engines' fuel consumption is almost the same with the headlights on, because the added load from the alternator is a small fraction of cars total friction and wind resistance. Same applies to the generators at the power plant, that have to spin at night with or w/o the addition of EV charging loads. Adding the EV's increases the fuel consumption a little, BUT even that should be subsidized by taxes.
Here's why. The OIL companies fight the EVs, because they loose control of their built in market when hydro electric or coal or wind or nuclear plants begin furnishing VEHICLES WITH ENERGY. Please, let's not continue the support for the OIL giant's lobbying efforts agains wind, solar or any other alternative technological innovations.

[sintax]

52. Superb Post- Nominated Hybrids are "feelgood" bullshit

non-solutions, and therefore a distraction and part of the problem.

The gas mileage is little better than my '91 Honda, which I rarely use. ALL auto mobiles create enormous amounts of greenhouse gasses when you calculate the amount of greenhouse gasses used in the extraction and manufacturing processes as well as the obvious pollutants that come from driving.

Another aspect of why Toyota. Honda, Ford etc. won't think of divorcing themselves from the way they manufacture has to do with the interconnections with Big Oil and Big Transport consortiums.

The car culture is toxic and a big part of the destruction of Earth which is moving at breakneck speed.

We need entirely new modes not these half-assed "fixes".

[Sparkman]

54. Please consider the Suzuki Twin, 2003 hybrid Japan only. 73 mpg.

[sintax]

55. Looking at MPG is a very narrow perspective.

How much oil goes into the manufacturing of one tire?

How much ore is mined for the various metals needed to assemble the machine?

How much groundwater contamination occurs due to all the processes involved?

How much energy goes into maintaining the automobile infrastructure?

All aspects must be cosidered to make an honest and thorough analysis.

The automobile is a destructive, polluting force.

Consider also how many creatures are killed by the car- frogs,butterflies etc. Of course this last consideration is unpopular in this all too human machine-man world.

[Sparkman]

67. total accounting...my old VW's and keeping older cars has some merit.

[Sparkman]

68. almost forgot...bicycle for under a mile trips is VERY EFFICIENT

If weather & your mood comply, by the time you drive a mile, a bicycle even with a small trailer attatched, can tie an auto with the prep time and stops for fuel, lights that the bicycle can ignore.
I run red lights when it's safe, on my 10 speed. And traffic jams puts bikes way out front.

[Tyler Durden]

56. BROTHER! (or SISTER!)

SHIT did you nail it. When I hear "not enough power, not popular, etc" regarding new transportation technology, I need and antiemetic.

You know what these people should realize? Like building a new PC, Literally TONS of raw materials and fossil fuels go into the manufacture of these beasts; but nobody wants to give up their "toys."

You should SEE the shit that flies when I bring up my Quarterly Cotan/Tantalum/Cell Phone Rant.

[sintax]

58. "nobody wants to give up their toys"

BINGO Greedy Western liberal consumers.

There is no such thing as 'greening the economy', sorry Amory lovins but you are full of shit and misleading people with your pathetic analysis of enrgy related 'technologies' and how we can retool our toxic culture.

It's just a gigantic hoax that people love to hear with the appropriate buzzword, 'sustainable',etc...

The level of change people would need to make is enormous and would shock their worldview and cause many tears of 'inconvenience'.

It's sick to hear all the rationalizations from people who consider themselves "progressive".

What you say about cell phones?

Like fueling the civil war in the Congo? 6 million dead, 3 million displaced for the cellular junkies.
Like 40 MILLION birds dead from collisions with towers so the the young elites and hip activists can have incessantly banal conversations and poses from a plastic world of fashionable conveniences.
Like destroying the habitat of the Eastern Lowland Gorilla in the Congo for coltan?
Like contributing to child prostitution in the Congo?

But wait are you talking about actually looking at AND ACTING ON the consequences of my daily life? Can't I just sign an e-mail list for the WWF (Corporate Run) or do a fundraiser?

I could go on and on as I am going to in a post in the near future regarding the plague of the cell phones. This morning, and everyday, I was either mocking, going off, or trying to convince folks about the evils of the cell phones. I am going to make about 200 copies of an info sheet later today,on recycled paper, about cell phones, that I will distribute to everyone I come into contact with who is using these poisonous techno-toys.

[Tyler Durden]

74. THANK YOU!

You are the first person I've talked to here with this level of understanding of the problems we create simply by CONSUMING like MARABUNTA.

I use LOW tech systems (largest at home? Pentium II) and I refuse to permit the use of cell phones by ANYONE in my house. You come in, shut the damn thing off: better yet, leave it home. Better still, DON'T PARTICIPATE IN THE CONSUMPTION ORGY.

[wuushew]

57. Electric vehicles have a poor power to weight ratios

lithium ion batteries might get get 100-180 watts per kilogram while an internal combustion engines gets 1,000 watts/kilogram.

If the consumer expects a required level of performance and was required to only purchase electric vehicles he or she would be required to pay for the additional mass of the vehicle. Extra mass always costs money especially using the best materials available like lithium ion batteries, the raw materials for which are not a common as one would think. Most other battery materials have various toxicity problems associated with them like lead/acid and cadmium.

As long as there is a need for independent non-mass transit forms of travel internal-combustion engines combined with the excellent attributes of hybrids are the way to go. Synthetic fuels derived from bio-mass would be carbon neutral and have the advantages of long term storage and existing distribution infrastructure.

[Sparkman]

70. The lead / lead oxide/sulf. acid common battery can be recycled, old

technology. Those require enforcement and legislation to compel the recycling. I've seen worse acids, HF, neutralized with just potash, and that can be open pit evaporated with the residue precipitants dealt with.

[Tyler Durden]

77. In fact, Lead/Acid battery recycling is one of the BIGGEST

Recycling these things is a major industry. Plus, unless a cell is cracked, or a plate broken, they can just rinse out the inside, fill them up with acid, and recharge them all over again.

LOW TECH is MANAGEABLE TECH.

[sintax]

72. Any more nominations- substantive discussions

are rarities.

Low Tech

[Tyler Durden]

75. wouldn't hold my breath...

...the defense of the Capitalistic Consumption Orgy is legion, even here.

Anyone who thinks they're actually HELPING by buying a New Car OF ANY KIND is kidding themselves.

[sintax]

86. kick n/t

[sintax]

87. kick n/t

[sintax]

88. in the struggle against the myth of the machine

Unnecessary necessaries-civilization is fraught with these.

[msongs]

100. could you quit betraying your principles and get another job?

after this extensive listing of complaints and comments about the industry you work for, perhaps you could stop benefiting from the evil auto industry's policies by getting another job somewhere else, say at a company that actually benefits the environment or something like that.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Tyler Durden]

101. How LOVELY that you work for the ANGELS...

...in modern industry.

I assume that when I, as a 52 year old office rat techical writer, quit my job on principle, YOU will be supporting:

My wife's next surgery and our health insurance
The meager amount I use to help my oldest in College
The 100 bucks I had to shell out because the pukes cut sports funding and the middle boy plays soccer
The mortgage payment
The youngest's necessary orthodonture

You know what? We can't ALL be lucky enough to make politcal t-shirts for a living.

You may consider yourself called the epithet regarding the human cloaca that I restrained myself from calling you. You don't know me, my 33 year political history, my homelessness, my 13 year service in the Navy, and my keeping of 3 children as a single parent without costing you a nickle for welfare.

How old are you anyway? Or are you just that clueless about how things really work here in the United States of Fascist Amerikkka?

[sintax]

104. It ain't so easy bro'

:toast: