Roberts adoption...

[Rebecca_Remarks]

I've heard rumors (but can't find a cite on the web, sorry...) that John Roberts illegaly adopted his two kids. The kids were definitely adopted, of that there is no doubt - but I've heard that the legality of the adoption from Central America is highly questionable.

How come this hasn't been brought up yet by the MSM? Any chance we can use this to derail the nomination (and maybe even have the kids sent to a nice "blue-state" family so that they don't grow up to be raving wingnuts)?

Rebecca

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Thread in LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1676490&mesg_id=1676490

[Lex]

8. From Drudge, no less.

:shudder:

[Rebecca_Remarks]

9. Thanks...

I wasn't aware of that thread.

Rebecca

[eissa]

2. Haven't heard anything like that

Wouldn't mind knowing the truth, of course, but would definitely be against removing the children from the only parents they've known (I believe they were adopted as infants.)

[Canuckistanian]

3. Drudge talked about it, didn't he?

It seems that it's one of those "let's kill the story before it becomes an issue", according to Eschaton blog.

[Modem Butterfly]

4. A rumor is just that: a rumor

The legitimate press should focus on concrete stories, such as Plame and Iraq. Let the confirmation process shake out any irregularities in Roberts' life, relating to this adoption, his taxes, his career, or whatever. If there is an irregularity, the media should report that. But for now, there are plenty of real stories they aren't following.

[KittyWampus]

6. thanks, rumors aren't going to help the left on this topic.

[Sanity Claws]

5. NYT is supposed to be investigating the adoptions but

I don't get it. In what way were the adoptions supposedly illegal? Were the babies sold? Or were some papers not handled properly?
Frankly, I just don't like this being an issue. The couple adopted children. Good for them. They shouldn't be martyred for it, except if they stole the children.

[Rebecca_Remarks]

11. Well...

... if the adoption is illegal, isn't that the equivelant of stealing them?

Rebecca

[Sanity Claws]

16. No

Stealing implies intent. Paperwork could be done sloppily without the Roberts' even knowing it.
The paperwork was in Spanish and even if the Roberts were proficient in Spanish, reading legalese in another language is hard. Trust me -- -- I'm a lawyer.

[Rebecca_Remarks]

21. Fair enough...

Fair enough. Perhaps "stealing" was too strong a word to use.

However, the possibility remains that he might have actually stolen them (with intent).

In the event that it was simply a paperwork or clerical error, the adoption should still be invalidated, or, at the very least, re-done correctly.

Rebecca

[City Lights]

25. So we shouldn't expect a lawyer->judge->USSC nominee to have the

paperwork in order regarding the adoption of his children?

I guess I just expect too much. :shrug:

[Sanity Claws]

28. I would hate to be held to that standard

The papers are in a foreign language and the adoption was done under foreign laws.
I don't like children being treated like pawns in this battle.

[City Lights]

32. So if someone adopts a child from a foreign country,

they can't necessarily count on their paperwork being legal because translating it into English is too difficult? I've got lots of friends and family members who will be interested in hearing this, including my in-laws.

[Sanity Claws]

33. Actually, when you adopt overseas,

you look for people to hire and walk you through all the steps. You trust that the people who you hire are doing it right. It is not a question of translation.
What if the papers only had one signature to it, when under the country's laws at least two signatures are required? No translation would highlight problems like that. What if the birth mother was under 18 and under the country's laws, not only she but her parents had to sign away rights? No translation would put you on notice of issues like that.
Don't forget that in this country, some adoptive parents have also encountered problems with paperwork details. I can imagine the problems are greater when adopting under a different country's laws and in a different language.

[City Lights]

34. Don't ask me questions, I'm trying to learn from you.

;-)

You stated in post #16:

"Paperwork could be done sloppily without the Roberts' even knowing it.
The paperwork was in Spanish and even if the Roberts were proficient in Spanish, reading legalese in another language is hard. Trust me -- -- I'm a lawyer."

So now you're saying it's not a question of translation of the actual adoption papers, but rather possibly not being proficient enough with a foreign language to properly translate their laws?

I know nothing about foreign adoptions, but would hope that there are people in both countries doing what is necessary to ensure that all paperwork is in order, and all laws of both countries are followed.

[Sanity Claws]

36. Learn from me?

I have nothing to teach you. I was just asking you to keep an open mind that many things could explain problems with an adoption. It's very easy for things to go wrong and if something does go wrong, one shouldn't automatically assume that the adoptive parents are somehow complicit in creating the problem.

[City Lights]

43. Yeah.

"Trust me -- -- I'm a lawyer."

I never assumed that any problems that may have arisen during an adoption means the adoptive parents are somehow complicit in creating the problem. However, I still don't think it's asking too much to expect a USSC nominee to have his adoption paperwork in order. If I were an adoptive parent and something wasn't right with my paperwork, I'd want to know about it so I could take steps to correct it. (Since I'm not the lawyer, I have no idea if mistaken paperwork can just be corrected, but I sure as hell hope so.)

As I said, I have lots of friends and family members who have adopted children from foreign countries, and I'm sure they want everything involved with their adoptions to be legal.

[bobbieinok]

51. candidates with poor paperwork for household help don't get off

[Joan of Arc]

45. "If"

Nothing so far has suggested the adoptions were illegal. Your operative word is "if." Prove that it was. Otherwise I think the NYT should be leaving this alone. It has no relevance to the nomination process. The NYT needs to get about the business of reporting real news.

[JDPriestly]

14. But where did the children come from?

Have you read the Handmaiden's Tale? Did Roberts and his wife state that they preferred blond children or children without disabilities? There are lots of children available for adoption in this country, especially children of color. Why do so many wealthy people go to other countries to adopt? This is information that the public needs to know. The Roberts' adoption may highlight some interesting issues, possibly hypocrisies in our society. On the other hand, the adoptions may have been perfectly normal in every respect.

[Sanity Claws]

19. Not sure that there are a lot of infants to adopt

I don't think there are that many healthy babies available for adoption in this country. If you have statistics regarding their availability, I'd love to see them.
Yes, there are a lot of older children and disabled children available for adoption.

[JDPriestly]

22. Precisely.

There are a lot of older, disabled children to adopt. Some of them are not Caucasian. Most are not blond. People want cute little babies, but older children, disabled children, non-Caucasian children especially need homes. When you have a baby, you take what you get. When you adopt, you choose what you want. What you want tells something about who you are.

This is relevant to the abortion issue. People criticize women who abort their fetuses because the fetus has a serious disability. Some of the critics are willing to adopt disabled babies or children. They put their actions where their mouths are. That is called integrity.

A lot of people, however, are only willing to adopt babies without disabilities. They say that every fetus deserves life, but that they are too busy or can't handle the problems that come with a disabled child. Their actions contradict what they say. That is called hypocrisy.

The public deserves to know. Are the Roberts for or against the abortion of disabled children? They are economically well positioned to give any child, disabled or not what the child needs. If they are against abortion of disabled children, were they neutral on adopting one. In other words, do they have integrity on this issue or are they hypocritical.

[Sanity Claws]

29. Actually when you adopt, you also take what you are given

A friend and her husband adopted a child from Guatamala. They were told when the baby was expected and they had to accept the child, whether boy or girl.
Also, not all disabilities are visible at birth. Autism may not be seen for a few years. Once adopted, the child is yours, no returns.

[City Lights]

30. That's not how it worked for my in-laws.

They requested and got a baby boy from Guatemala.

[Sanity Claws]

35. Wow -- that shocks me.

The couple I know had no choice. Different agency perhaps. I know that after they adopted their child, the same birth parents had another baby and put it up for adoption. The agency contacted my friends to find out if they wanted a full sibling for the adoptive daughter. They declined. Apparently there are more babies for adoption than there are adoptive parents.

[expatriate]

39. I've adopted through social services in the USA

an older child. There are many things about adoption of "hard to adopt children" in the USA that most people just don't know.

Were you aware that there are states will NOT place a black child with a white family? No matter how unlikely it is for the child to be adopted by a black family? I expressed my willingness to take a black child when I adopted in New York State - no go. It simply wasn't done. Some law on the books.

New York State also would not place a child of one religion in a family of another religion, even if you were willing to continue to raise that child in that religion. They fudged a lot with the various Protestant sects, but placing a Jewish child with a Protestant or Catholic family? No go. I knew of a Protestant woman who was more than willing to adopt a little Jewish girl with disabilities - even though the child had very little mentality, and would never comprehend the differences between religions, the state absolutely would not place her with the woman, because of the religion issue. She just languished on in foster care and the woman ended up going to private adoption.

The adoptions folks would not place a child who was considered to be of Native American heritage with a family that was not from their tribe, or could not claim and prove heritage from that tribe. No discussion, no question about it - there was some law on the books stating that Native American kids had to stay within their tribe, no matter how desperately they needed a home or how bleak their chances were of being adopted.

These laws probably have not been changed since the 1990's when I coped with them. Though I don't know specific adoption laws from other states, there are probably similar situation out there. In fact, I know from other adopted parents that there are similar situations in many states.

So it isn't simply a matter of saying "I want to adopt, and I'll take a child of color or a disabled child" and immediately being matched up with one of the thousands of kids out there who have little or no chance of finding an adoptive home. Many social services agencies drag their feet for ages doing adoptions too - why? Because so many older child adoptions done through social services end up being disrupted, because so many of the children are so terribly damaged by the time social services quits playing around trying to reunite their flawed biological families, that the kids are emotionally and mentally destroyed. Some of these children are absolutely beyond help. Some can be dangerous. It is tragic, but the rate of RAD (Reactive Attachment Disorder) among these kids is incredibly high - and a person suffering from RAD has no conscience, cannot bond with anyone, and is manipulative to the nth degree. It is a difficult enough to adjust to adopting an older child, but when a condition like RAD is involved, most adoptions fail.

Most people who try to go through social services adoption end up doing the private adoption from another country schtick instead, because believe it or not, there is a lot less red tape and foot dragging, particularly if you have the money to fund things and get them pushed through.

I don't know what the Roberts' situation was, and frankly, I consider it none of my business. I just wanted to point out that adopting an older, black, disabled or otherwise "hard to adopt child" is really not a matter of putting your hand up and saying "I'll take anything you've got".

[Ms. Toad]

46. And taking many of these needy children is not something

everyone can or should do.

My parents adopted three older non-white children. My parents were loving and devoted parents. There are very few of their parenting decisions and very little of their style I would have changed in raising my siblings and me.

Despite that, one ended up on death row after an alcohol/peyote driven binge, supplemented by a fair amount of torment from others about his racial background. He killed two women, one of whom was a dear family friend. My mother's belief is that there is nothing more that she could have done to assist him in becoming an emotionally healthy and whole individual - but that if she had not brought him into our community and introduced him to our family friends, at least any harm he did would not have fallen on people she loved dearly.

Another ended up in a bottle from the time he was 12 and stole from friends and neighbors, among other things. In his 40s he finally crawled out and after 4-5 years my mother was finally up to tolerating his presence for as much as a day at a time, but now, less than a decade later, he is teetering on the edge again.

At the time my parents adopted my siblings, adoption agencies believed that plenty of love would solve everything - something they now know is not true in many cases, but they generally do not do enough to ensure that families adopting older, particularly abused children, really understand the depth of the damage that can occur before age 2 that is difficult or impossible to undo.

That is not to say there are not an incredible number of needy children like my siblings were, or that loving families should not consider opening their homes to these children.

I considered adoption, as a lesbian for whom the possibility of conception doesn't occur naturally within my marriage. I rejected it after thinking seriously about my childhood, pondering anything I could do differently than my parents had done that might lead to a different outcome, consultation with my faith community, and some counseling. I know I do not have the emotional strength to be one of these families.

Regardless of political stripe, or beliefs about abortion, or anything else, I am not willing to criticize anyone else who similarly makes the decision it is not somthing they are capable of and chooses a different means to create their family.

[JDPriestly]

50. I should hope that the attention paid to the Roberts'

adoption will draw attention to the roadblocks to adoption in this country. I am not aware of the details, but I know there are problems. Still, you were willing to take a child without discriminating against certain children. That is wonderful. There are so many children who need homes. Laws and prejudices that prevent them from being adopted should be discussed openly.

[Nia Zuri]

31. Foreigners adoping African American kids in the U.S.

As I mentioned in the other thread, Europeans and Canadians have begun adopting African American children who are unable to find homes here in the U.S. A twist on the foreign adoptions we see among, American white couples who are going to Romania, Russia etc. to find a white baby.

[Sanity Claws]

38. I haven't heard about this.

Is there a link or source you could provide on this? I'd like to see more publicity on this matter.

[jmm]

41. here's a link

Foreign Adoption of African-American Babies Grows

[Sanity Claws]

42. Interesting.

The article said it's still rare. I hope this would cause parents to think again about going overseas to adopt.

[progressivebydesign]

48. Wealthy people adopt privately in the US all the time. n/t

[Ilsa]

26. Actually, we don't know that his kids aren't disabled, do we?

They could have medical problems, HIV, autism or austism spectrum disorders, schizophrenia, etc.

[progressivebydesign]

47. well perhaps they did steal them. who knows??

That's why it's being investigated I suppose. Something must have been brought to the NYT's attention, otherwise it is not SOP to investigate adoptions.

[jmm]

7. Of all the reasons he shouldn't be nominated you pick this?

The adoption of his children has to be somewhere around #9,782 on the list of reasons why he shouldn't be on the Supreme Court. We've got plenty of better issues to attack him on.

[Rebecca_Remarks]

10. I know...

... but we all knew those reasons. I wasn't sure how well known this was.

Rebecca

[deadparrot]

12. I agree...

there are issues with so much more relevance. Stay away from the kids.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. Remember nannygate? I inhaled gate? Housekeeper gate? These

issues do act as disqualifications.

[jmm]

17. Yeah I remember them but

we shouldn't have to stoop that low. Forget the sleaziness of it, it could backfire big time and turn many people against Democrats if we're seen as the party that attacks people's children. I'd hate to make people have sympathy for him and his wife. I could see if they did something blatantly wrong but I'm not about to help crucify a couple even if they forgot to cross a couple of t's and dot some i's on the paperwork.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

20. Actually I do agree with you as I think all children should be off limits

including the Bush twins. I used those examples because no matter how trivial they seemed, they actually capsized the nominations.

[JDPriestly]

23. It's not about the chldren.

as with nannygate, It's about the parents, the Roberts.

[JDPriestly]

24. Would the Republicans hesitate to go after the children

of a Democrat nominated for the Supreme Court? We have to start playing by their rules.

[SmokingJacket]

13. There are many, many legitimate adoptions from Guatemala.

Not to stand up for the guy, at all.

But I know adopting from central america happens....

[DELUSIONAL]

18. This is WAR -- whatever it takes -- DO IT

Were the kids adopted to make him look more "acceptable"?

Who Knows -- I really don't care.

This is WAR --

This couple was rich enough to go someplace to find some nice white kids to make them look like an all American white family -- and it made a nice photo op.

Keep looking -- keep digging -- and if it takes looking at where the kids came from and how they were adopted -- SO BE IT.

We cannot afford to be nice -- we are at WAR.

Their side has been at WAR on us for decades -- and our side keeps trying to be nice so that everyone will like us.

And anyway -- we do need to know where the kids came from and the details of the foreign adoption. I have memories of the children of the Argentinian "Disappeared" who were given to loyal child-less couples.

The bushie gang is at WAR with us . . . . Never forget this.

[KittyWampus]

27. Rumor Mongering... Hmmmmmmmm.....

[Bucky]

37. One more time... Children are off limits.

What the hell is this? I'll leave attacking children to the Republicans, thank you.

[progressivebydesign]

49. No. The adoption is being investigated.. it's NOT attacking the kids.

Just as every single person who is vetted for a political post is investigated if there is any question of impropriety in hiring nannies, etc., this is relevant. It's not the kids, it's the transaction. Obviously, something was brought to the media's attention about the adoption. We're neither rumor mongering nor attacking their cute kids, we are simply DISCUSSING an investigation of a transaction... and it's rather important, as breaking laws would be a bad history to have as a SCJ.

[FreedomAngel82]

53. But if he's going to tell me when and how I can have children

then fuck him! I don't care. Was Chelsea Clinton off limits? NO!

[Cronus Protagonist]

55. No one's attacking the children

As far as I can tell, everyone thinks they're adorable.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[DURHAM D]

40. Since this appears to have started on Drudge I assume that the

story came out of the White House. Just a distraction and designed to make Dems look bad.

[Generator]

44. I heard they are actual clones of him and the mrs.

But since they are innocent! it's just nasty to talk about.

[SoCalDem]

52. Money and position.. They probably "paid" someone to have the babies

There are light skinned/blond(e) latin americans..

[ElectroPrincess]

54. Too funny!

A friend mentioned this blond haired babies of Mr. Roberts. :P

Yeah, how very *fortunate* privilege must be since OTHER Caucasian people in the good ole' USA are on waiting lists a mile long to adopt another little light skinned human.

Strange - oh he and his "pro-life feminist" bride were just lucky. We all know that such upstanding people would never attempt to circumvent the system in America?!?