To Our British Friends Here At DU: Welcome To Post Attack Fascist Hysteria

[DistressedAmerican]

The terrorists have done a pretty good job of screwing up the collective American psyche. Our freedoms have been curtailed and most of America cheered it.

From what I see, you guys are heading down the same road.

You'll love it here in Post 9/11 (Post 7/7) land.

Lots of new powers for the government. Looks like they are really getting tough on the terrorists. Mostly they get tough on the citizens.

God forbid they be foreign nationals.

What's the word on your detention facilities? You'll need plenty. Are you ready?

When our countries are acting like this, the terrorists are really getting the job of making people terrified DONE!

[tocqueville]

1. I disagree as much as I disagree with Blair's stand on Iraq

Outing a bunch of Imams preaching hatred isn't threatening any civil liberties

The intelligence expert

Crispin Black, a former government intelligence analyst, is a director of Janusian Security Risk Management
"Generally, I approve of most of these measures but the question now of Tony Blair is: is he actually going to do anything?

I am not sure about banning organisations - it didn't really work with the IRA; it will drive them underground and give them a status they don't perhaps merit.

Retrospective law is a bit problematic but my overriding criticism of this is why are we doing it now and not years ago? The retrospective nature acknowledges we should have done this long ago and I find that worrying. There is a sense that we are competing against yesterday's threat.

I don't think they are controversial and the overall thrust is what a reasonable percentage of our population will applaud. We need to have laws like this and they will help a little bit although I would like to see more border control and some indication of how we are going to tackle intelligence.

We need to adopt the French style of intelligence where people report or freely give information, with the communities themselves feeling they have a duty to keep the government updated."

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,15935,1543770,00.html

[MisterP]

3. who gets to decide? what about citizens?

expulsion of "bad preachers" can go downhill real fast in Airstrip One

[tocqueville]

4. law has to decide

any public statement from a preacher (or whoever for that matters) that appeals to violence against groups or individuals should lead to :

if the person is citizen of the country to imprisonment and loss of civil rights

for a non citizen to deportation if there is a guarantee that this person is not to be killed and/or tortured in the destination country. If there is a risk for that, the person can be detained locally.

It's not a question of prohibiting somebody of claiming that his God is the greatest, but of prohibting to say that in name of my God (or whatever) all Christians should be killed, or amm Muslims, or all gays... which happened in the UK in the name of "freedom of religion and expression"...

[DistressedAmerican]

7. Start Deporting People And Imprisoning Them For Speech And

You do not see that as a loss of liberties? You have a hell of a lot of trust in the British government. It is a dangerous policy because (As I understand it) what qualifies as hate speech is extremely loosely defined.

Vague laws like this can quickly be turned on protest organizations for example. Bushco has and is trying to us use new anti-terror laws here to spy on groups and threaten then.

You sound like one of those Americans cheering the loss of their freedoms to me. Like I said, Enjoy your fascism...

[tocqueville]

14. we have the same laws in France

and it's far less a "fascist" state than the US might be today

what you DON'T UNDERSTAND is that HATE SPEECH isn't the same as freedom of expression

[DistressedAmerican]

15. If There Are A Lot Like You Over there, You May Be More Fascist Than You

Realize!

Have a nice one....

[tocqueville]

16. If our "fascism" is to take legal measures against preachers

who daily bash "infidels", gays, Muslims, Christians, women, pro-life and openly incite people to kill them in the name of "freedom of expression"...

we are indeed ALL fascists...

according to an oddity in your legal system doing above named is a felony if directed against an individual

in ours it's a felony if directed against a group too

that's the whole difference

[DistressedAmerican]

17. Blair isn't talking about people bashing gays, women, or prolifers.

These laws targes MUSLIMS. What are you missing?

[tocqueville]

21. extremists yes

11. We will consult on a new power to order closure of a place of worship which is used as a centre for fomenting extremism and will consult with Muslim leaders in respect of those clerics who are not British citizens, to draw up a list of those not suitable to preach who will be excluded from Britain.

What are you missing?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,15935,1543385,00.html

And check that one :

5. Cases such as Rashid Ramda wanted for the Paris metro bombing 10 years ago and who is still in the UK whilst France seeks extradition, are completely unacceptable. We will begin consultation, on setting a maximum time limit for all future extradition cases involving terrorism.

What would have the US said if one the WTC bombers (or involved) like Moussaoui had been caught in France and not extradited to the US
under the pretext he wouldn't get a "fair trial". I won't even dare to think about it...

In France 2 extremists Imams have ben expulsed, 8 are on their way. Big deal. The 5 millions French or immigrants of Arabic descent are still here and ACTIVELY cooperate with the authorities to track terrorists.

We arrested about 150 suspects in the last 2 years, 10 of them are convicted or going to be convicted, and the remaining are now free or under surveillance...

How do you think they got arrested ? because Inspecteur Clouzeau is so damn good at looking like a bearded mollah ? No because the majority of the Arabic community tips off the DST (French FBI)...

Mistakes can always be made, and sure some people are biased. But turning a Democratic Government into a fascist one may it be British ofr French because it does stop ILLEGAL preaching, is preposterous.

And we still don't arrest librarians.

And I can tell you that a bunch of your Evangelical and other TV preachers including Ann Coulter, Falwell and others would probably be in jail if they were French and lived in France...

BECAUSE HATE SPEECH ISN'T FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION

[tocqueville]

18. and I forgot... in our legal system

it's also forbidden to use any media (even standing on a chair on a market place) to shout " Kill niggers and Jews"

which makes us ALL fascists...

PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[DistressedAmerican]

19. Nice Ban You Have On Islamic Headscarves. Real Open...

Not thought police? Not fascists?

[tocqueville]

23. cm'on

we DO have separation of Church and State

in this country

the law was passed with the ENDORSMENT of 90% of the Muslim associations in France

it applies ONLY to PUBLIC schools and was a response to a TARGETED approach from Islamic fundies who besides the scarf wanted an interdiction of participation into sexual education and sport activities in swimming.

No OTHER restriction is applied for anybody else, including private religious schools

Go to a French beach, and you'll se 90% of the Girls from Arabic
descent in bikinis or even topless.

The scarf ban is exactly the same principle that forbids to teach creationism in French schools, if the need would ever arise.

Religion is a PRIVATE matter, not a public one. And the ban is for crosses and Jewish caps too.

BTW TURKEY has even tougher laws on scarf ban than France. And it's a Muslim country.

[DistressedAmerican]

24. We Clearly Define Freedom Of Speech Quite Differently.

I would NEVER want to restrict religious speech to a level that no one was allowed to wear a single symbol in school. That is verging on the xenophobic.

Please tell my why you are so threatened by religious speech? Why do you feel the need to ban it? And what's more, why do you think that is just some common sense thing? It isn't.

I completely disagree with you that there is ANY justification for a ban on such symbols. Why do they scare you so?

These bikini clad "Girls from arabic descent" you speak of are irrelevant. I am glad they have the choice to wear one of they want. They should also have the choice to stay covered if that is what their religious beliefs dictate.

Is a headscarf "hate speech"? Does it threaten your national security and safety? That is what had you all up in arm a couple of posts ago.

I just can not conceive of how you support this at all...

[G_j]

10. I'll bet there are many in the UK who would like Blair expelled

for being a terrorist, Galloway comes to mind.
Now how does Tony get to decide who is, and who isn't a terrorist?

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. Wow, Blair is even more authoritarian than Peter Hitchens

arch columnist in the right wing Mail on Sunday (brother of Christopher, and much more right wing than him):

"It seems to me to be dangerous because I don't know how you can draft these proposals so they don't become a threat to freedom of speech.

There are already perfectly acceptable laws against incitement to violence and conspiracy laws against incitement to terrorism. It is not an absence of laws that have made these things happen.

Banning political parties and classifying parties as extreme is dangerous because it must not become a weapon that a government, yet unknown, can use against people who disagree with it.

Another aspect of this is that disgusting opinions, if spoken openly, can be challenged, argued and defeated. Suppressing them by law doesn't prevent them being thought. If you are interested in tracking extremists then it would be useful to know where they are gathered.

[DistressedAmerican]

8. Hey, Where Have I Heard That Before? Oh Yeah Right Here In The

"HOMELAND".

Wake up before it is too late.

[theHandpuppet]

13. We have plenty of preachers right here in this country...

... who advocate the execution of homosexuals. Others who call for violence against abortion clinics and the doctors who provide services for women seeking abortion. We also have plenty of hate groups which, under the guise of names such as "The American Knights of the KKK", Stormfront, the National Alliance, Aryan Nation, the World Church of the Creator, et al, systematically preach hatred of Jews, blacks, Latinos and gays.

Further, members and supporters of these hate groups have been involved in numerous acts of terrorism here in the United States, from bombings to assassinations and the murder of individual citizens.

Oh right, I forgot... these are the Christian terrorists. Only Imams get imprisoned or exiled for advocating hate, violence and terrorism.

You do see where this is going, don't you tocqueville?

For the best site regarding hate groups here in the U.S. try a visit to:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intpro.jsp

[Don Claybrook]

2. One minor correction

I don't think they'll need that many detention facilities, so long as they have some non-territory territory left, they can put the detention facilities there so that all this legal stuff doesn't get in the way.

And don't forget that our Partners in the Struggle Against Global Extremism will extraordinarily render prisoners for us...or something like that.

[anarchy1999]

6. Once again, you hit another home run.

Congrats and salud!

[DistressedAmerican]

9. Morning Kick

[lockdown]

11. We need alert colours now

With a u!

We should get Changing Rooms to do a special show, so we can decide which colour scheme best reflects our modern cool.

[DistressedAmerican]

12. You Let Me Know The Colour Scheme And I Think There Is A Graphic In It.

For now, we'll let you borrow this. You will need to know when the end is near...

[Taxloss]

20. DA, I'm afraid you're wrong.

For a start, it's wrong to equate 11 September with 7 July. 11 September was far, far worse. And we're familiar with mainland terrorism, so we haven't freaked out. And Blair's assault on our civil liberties began long before 7/7 and we've opposed it every step of the way, and will continue to oppose it. Just check the threads about the campaign against national ID cards in the UK forum - you'll see we're working hard to defend our liberties. Our vision is not clouded. We remain dead set on staying free, getting rid of Blair while keeping Labour, and opposing the assault on our freedoms. We work hard on this.

On further edit:

There is no "fascist hysteria". There are no flags. There is nothing I can see that indicates any feverish nationalism. From where I stand, the country is carrying on as normal.

[Lannes]

22. Question for our British DUers

I found this Aussie interview recently with Richard Clarke the former counter terrorism expert.He gave his thoughts on deporting radical muslims that incite violence.Id be interested in your take since you have more at stake and are better informed about what is going on in the UK.


http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2005/s1417974.htm


QUENTIN DEMPSTER: Mr Clarke, the UK, and one expects Australia to follow suit, is legislating after the London bombings to outlaw indirect incitement to terrorism acts preparatory to terrorism and providing or receiving training for terrorism locally or abroad, the deporting of people suspected of terrorist links, banning Internet websites with bomb-making manuals, tighter restrictions on the retailing of chemicals which could be used in bomb-making. This is a piecemeal. This is predictable, isn't it?

RICHARD CLARKE: Well, it's predictable, but I think also it works. It was striking to me that the day of the London bombings there was a man here in the US, a man named Ali al-Tamimi, who was sentenced to life in prison for incitement to terrorism and material support to terrorism. If you look at the things he actually did, there are many leaders of the radical Muslim community in London who had done that and had done much more and were and are now still free wandering around London. One has to wonder if the British had been applying that kind of American approach for the last 10 years in London, whether the attacks in London would have happened.