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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:17 AM
Original message
Progressive Cuba-Bashing
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 12:18 AM by durutti
http://www.marxmail.org/Cuba_Levins.htm

In the mid-1960s, when Che Guevara dropped out of sight to begin his guerrilla campaign in Bolivia, some on the left were asking whether Fidel had had him murdered. In the late 1980s, some were quick to assume that the trial of the Cuban general Ochoa on charges of attempting to organize a drug ring in collaboration with the Medellín cartel was really a political purge. What is striking is that these accusations against Cuba were accepted by so many without investigation, as if the abuses that were alleged were only to be expected and therefore must be true.

Why are so many progressives and liberals taken in by even the most outrageous falsehoods about Cuba? Why do they often accept uncritically the line of the Miami and Washington reactionaries about Cuba when they doubt almost everything else from these sources? Possibly some are tired of nay-saying all the conventional wisdoms. They do not want to appear "hard-line" or "ideological," and rejecting Cuba is a cheap and easy way of being a little more mainstream. Cuba may be relegated by some to the list of youthful enthusiasms from the time when "we thought we could change the world." This stance is reinforced by the accumulated cynicism of many defeats that says that no place can be all that good, that all dreams come to naught. Or, perhaps since Cuba's socialism is one of the few to have survived, it has become harder to romanticize it.

But, mostly, this vulnerability of the left to rightist propaganda is derived from the discouraging experience of the Soviet Union and eastern Europe and the unwarranted assumption that Cuba has a similar regime. As well, too many progressives have accepted cold-war anti-communism assumptions: that all Reds are the same and that any accusation against any of them is probably an understatement, that they support good causes only to serve their own noxious ends, that revolutionaries once in power are all cynical manipulators and monopolizers of privilege, and that their public statements are merely propaganda. The burdens of internalized cold war anti-communism and conventional political science allow for careless judgments and casual denunciations.

Dismissal of Cuba is sometimes simply an off-handed remark in writings about other subjects. For example Marc Cooper wrote a piece in The Nation, "Remembering Allende" (9/29/03). It was a thoughtful commentary, reflecting real experience, knowledge, and sympathy for the Chilean struggle. But in the course of it he threw in a careless unsupported denunciation of Cuba, referring to "the wholesale jailing of dissidents and summary executions by an ossified and dictatorial Cuban state." He is of course free to disapprove of the trials of political de-stabilizers in April 2003. But by linking the execution of hijackers to the trials of the "dissidents," he makes it appear as if dissidents were executed. In fact the hijackers were not political people. Two of them had prior criminal records, and they were threatening to kill their hostages. Most of us oppose capital punishment and support worldwide calls to eliminate it, but this does not justify singling out this case as an example of Cuban depravity.

http://www.marxmail.org/Cuba_Levins.htm">More.

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Face_in_the_Crowd Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. So what is your opinion of Cuba?
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Comandante_Subzero Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. Cuba-bashing?
Chomsky too calls Cuba a "Stalinist nightmare". It's not socialism, it's a one-party dictatorship. The revolution did some good things FOR the people but it's not empowering the people.

Castro told many lies & crushed domestic allies that didn't like him cosying up to the Soviet-aligned Communist Party (which had supported Batista).

He should step down & free elections should be held to determine a successor. He's hung on more than long enough. If Bush did what Castro's done we'd be calling for his defeat. Is criticising Bush America-bashing?

Few historical situations are anything like good guys & bad guys - sometimes neither side is very good.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. Cuba is a Stalinist shithole
one party authoritarian regimes with no room for dissent and quiet allowances of drug running are shitholes.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. so i'm assuming you'd be more than willing to live there
instead of here?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. What a foolish question
Yes, I would like to live in Cuba. I would rather be born and raised in Cuba today than be born and raised in America today.

Do not mistake economic prosperity to effective governing. Because of a few differences (quite an understatement, and if that doesn't hit you in the gut, you need help), the standard of living is higher in America than in Cuba. The funny thing is that the poorest in America have it A LOT worse than the poorest in Cuba. Families are thrown out on the streets in America, while in Cuba, housing and necessities are provided to those who need them (what a concept!). It would be immensely better for the US to have the political and economic policies of Cuba. Also, don't forget about those embargoes from the "land of the free".

However, a question that actually has to do with what we're talking about is: would you be more willing to live in Cuba than in the Latin American countries that are "US-approved" (as a person born and raised there, not some gringo who lives large)?
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. and the only terrorism they have to worry about is.....their own governmet
and US!

sorta the same thing, isn't it?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. No, actually
they don't have to worry about their own government too much because their government actually represents them. Not to mention the fact that their government helps them when they need it and the people provide themselves with education, health care and equality.

So no, not the same thing at all.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Deleted message
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. and would you expect the same freedom of expression
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 01:08 AM by Catholic Sensation
you enjoy in this country? How are homosexuals treated in Cuba? Hmmm? Not too well. Let's see what Amnesty International has to say about Cuba:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250291997 - Renewed Crackdown on Peaceful Government Critics

Hmmm... what a lovely country. Even peaceful government critics are being cracked down upon. Cuba the land of "freedom" (freedom to deify a Stalinist crackpot).

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250022002 - CUBA The situation of human rights in Cuba

Here's a good quote: In addition to its work on behalf of prisoners of conscience, Amnesty International also raised concerns about prison conditions and treatment of detainees(5) fair trials for political prisoners(6) and the death penalty.(7)

Okay Guantanamo is horrible because we're doing it, but I'm sure Castro has a legitimately good reason for committing the same atrocious act as us, right?

Here's Amnesty International's call on Cuba's "wonderful" human rights: to bring Cuban legislation into line with international human rights standards, especially the laws relating to the exercise of the fundamental freedoms mentioned above, so that the human rights of all Cuban citizens are protected;

Yeah Cuba is a wonderful place... for me to poop on.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Oh, yeah...
You are aware of the fact that many, if not most of those "peaceful government critics" are funded by the US to destabilize Cuba? Yeah, I thought so. The US is pretty much giving amnesty to quite a few anti-Cuban terrorists. Do you think they would stop there? Those critics are paid by the US to topple the people's government. Stop drinking the Kool Aid.

The human rights of Cuban citizens are more protected and respected than in the US. The only reason for these arrests and "prisoners of conscience" is that many of them are working to undo the work of the Cuban people on behalf of the US.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Deleted message
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. That's a new one
"reactionary marxist ass"...I'll add that to my list of favorite idiotic names I've been called. Thanks. :rofl:

You're going by the fact that 71 people are being held for, what you think as, political opposition. However, the fact that the US is funding these "dissidents" to create trouble in Cuba makes it clear that Cuba is doing this to protect itself from American interference. That is the truth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4361991.stm
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Deleted message
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Actually,
it was a reference to a claim I made. It wasn't a point itself.

Try disputing my statements instead of making idiotic claims.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Deleted message
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Oh, yes...
they are supported by America.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,930149,00.html

"The latest crackdown and confrontation with Washington began last month when Cuba accused the chief American diplomat on the island, James Cason, of encouraging the overthrow of the government. Mr Cason had been travelling around the island, meeting opponents of the government and giving press conferences.

This week he was criticised by one of his predecessors, Wayne Smith, who wrote in a letter to the New York Times that the arrests were the result of 'the blundering tactics of the Bush administration' in ordering Mr Cason to hold critical press conferences."
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. You support Marxist McCarthyism
political imprisonment and horrible mistreatment of prisoners is alright for some delusions of destabilization. Joseph McCarthy made the bullshit claim that socialists and communists were trying to destabilize America and wanted the exact same thing. So in your world, if he had gotten his way, it would be fine?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Just out of curiosity...
How do they get these "local governing councils, which represent the people"?

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CubsFan1982 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Appointed by the Communist Party.
How else?
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. BUT THE COMMUNIST PARTY REPRESENTS THE PEOPLE
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. That is false
They are elected by the people, nominated by the people. The Communist Party cannot even nominate anyone for office.

Don't believe me?
http://www.canadacuba.ca/traveltips/qanda1.php

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html#a008

Try to find some facts and reason, then get back to me.
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CubsFan1982 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Give me something other than propaganda.
Those links are nothing but propaganda, pure and simple. Not worth the code it took to create the page.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. What do you want?
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 01:24 AM by manic expression
The US Government's opinion? :rofl:

(edited grammatical error)
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. how about an independent one, not an opinion
from lunatic marxists with no credibility?
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Let's see
"The latest crackdown and confrontation with Washington began last month when Cuba accused the chief American diplomat on the island, James Cason, of encouraging the overthrow of the government. Mr Cason had been travelling around the island, meeting opponents of the government and giving press conferences.

This week he was criticised by one of his predecessors, Wayne Smith, who wrote in a letter to the New York Times that the arrests were the result of 'the blundering tactics of the Bush administration' in ordering Mr Cason to hold critical press conferences."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,930149,00.html
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CubsFan1982 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Let's see: democratic republic versus communist totalitarian dictatorship.
You do the math, Poindexter. And while you're at it, refute the Amnesty International reports Catholic Sensation posted. I see you don't have any propaganda for that.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Propaganda?
You were the one that stated the obvious falsehood that the Communist Party appoints leaders. Get a grip.

The Cuban Government has been arresting (and releasing) people who have worked with the US (and no doubt got funding), and are trying to destabilize Cuba. Do the math.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I love this
In a secret ballot vote taken by the deputies of the National Assembly on February 24th, 1998, Raul Castro received 100% of the votes for the Senior Vice Presidency of the Council of State.

A "secret ballot" is indicative of freedom and democracy and love and happiness.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yes, the secret ballot...
also known as "The Australian Ballot". It is used to make sure there are no reprisals for one's vote. Pretty democratic, actually.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. The descriptions on those pages sound like bullshit. No offense.
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 02:52 AM by impeachdubya
Any election where there's only one choice aint much of an election.

To be fair, though, the Vatican isn't a real democracy, either.

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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Look here:
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
34. There no opposition parties in Cuba. Anyone who knows anything
about Cuba knows that.

And please, go ahead and produce that list of Cuban opposition parties for me so I can ridicule it for obvious reasons.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. Cuba's wonderful justice system
Edited on Sat Aug-06-05 01:17 AM by Catholic Sensation
From Amnesty International again:

This section outlines Amnesty International’s current concerns regarding the treatment of prisoners of conscience whilst held in detention in the Cuban state prison system. Over the last year, Amnesty International has received reports of ill-treatment, reports of harsh conditions in solitary confinement which it believes amount to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, and reports that some prisoners are being punished by having visits, communications or medical attention arbitrary restricted or withheld.

Again, since it's completely wrong for us to do this at Guantanamo Bay, it's just as wrong for Josef Castro to do it to his political prisoners.

Read more about Castro and his "non-terrorizing" government's treatment of prisoner's of conscience here: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
33. I love how Fidel's fanpeople equate his regime with Cuba.
If you bash Castro and his totalitarian regime, you're actually insulting the entire nation and people of Cuba, according to these nimrods.

Bashing Bush is not bashing America.

Bashing Castro is not bashing Cuba.

Period.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
35. Hey You Two --- I don't like Castro OR The Pope!
Howd'ya like them apples!
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-05 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. Locking
this has become inflammatory.
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