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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:30 AM
Original message
Destabilizing the Nixon White House
{1} "....the intelligence community is at war with the White House ..." ("Plenty to Swear About"; Joe Klein; Time; 7-5-04)

Last night, a thread on DU:GD discussed the potential of the White House attempting to interfere with two federal grand jury investigations -- the Plame and the neocon spy cases. The conversation is of great interest to people who are concerned that the Bush administration has enough power to control virtually all branches of the federal government.

Could someone in the Department of Justice, for example, pull some strings in order to upset or destabilize either or both of the grand jury investigations? Both of these cases are coming uncomfortably close to those inhabiting the top offices in this administration. This would seem to make it more likely that the administration would attempt anything and everything that could destabilize the efforts of the two federal prosecutors who are, in fact, destabilizing the White House.

I thought it might be of interest for DUers to examine a case from three decades ago, where much like today, there was a war between the intelligence communities and the White House, and where there were investigations into the illegal activities of high-ranking administration officials.

The Watergate and the Plame/neocon spy scandals have many things in common. However, they are not identical by any means. This essay will not answer all of the important questions DUers have raised in the past week. In fact, if possible, I hope it will raise more questions. And these questions may lead us in the right direction.

{2} "On June 30, the Ervin Committee ended its trailblazing life and quickly issued its damning final report on the president. Senator Baker released, as his own minority opinion, a special report on the CIA's involvement in Watergate. It offered no conclusions, but documented how the CIA might have known in advance of both the fielding and Watergate break-ins." ("Watergate"; Fred Emery; page 441)

Richard Nixon frequently hinted that he believed his administration was set-up by elements within the intelligence community. He was convinced that a faction in the CIA had played a more significant role in Watergate that the public would ever know. Both Bob Haldeman and Charles Colson would write and say they were convinced that the CIA played a major role; Colson eventually accused other forces.

Were these men simply paranoid? Looking to blame others for their criminal behaviors? Or was Watergate a more complex scandal than the public, watching the explosive hearings on live television, really knew? A number of fascinating books, including Emery's, have hinted as much; others, such as Hougan's "Secret Agenda" and Colodny & Gettlin's "Silent Coup" deal directly with evidence the authors believe prove that certain forces at the federal level were intent upon destabilizing an administration they viewed as threatening our constitutional democracy.

About a month ago, I had expressed my belief that one of the Watergate burglars had played a role in destabilizing the Nixon administration. The behaviors of James McCord deserve close attention. Another DUer rejected this theory -- and it is only a theory -- and said that sometimes "things just happen." I had asked him/her to contnue the discussion, but he/she declined to. Certainly, everyone is entitle to their own interpretation of the facts. Mine is of no more value than anyone else's, and people are encouraged to look at the facts and decide for themselves.

{3} "At the time, in the 1970-71 pre-Watergate period, there was little public knowledge of the vast pushing, shoving, and acrimony between the White House and the FBI. For example, as the Watergate investigations later revealed, in 1970 a young White House aide named Tom Charles Huston came up with a plan to authorize the CIA, FBI and military intelligence units to intensify electronic surveillance of 'domestic security threats,' to authorize illegal opening of mail, and lift the restrictions on surreptitious entries or break-ins to gather intelligence. Huston warned in a Top Secret memo that the plan was 'clearly illegal.' President Nixon initially approved the plan. Hoover strenuously objected, principally because eavesdropping, opening mail and breaking into homes and offices of domestic security threats was basically the FBI bailiwick and they didn't want competition. Four days later Nixon rescinded the Huston plan.

"Felt later wrote that he considered Huston himself 'a kind of White House gauleiter over the intelligence community.' The four-inch thick WEbster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary defines a gauleiter as 'the leader or chief official of a political district under Nazi control.' " ("The Secret Man"; Bob Woodward; pages 33-4)

The tensions between the Nixon White House and the intelligence community was not limited to differences between Tom Huston and J. Edgar Hoover. Older DUers will recall the "Moorer-Radford affair," in which the military was shown to be keeping track of those things the administration considered "top secret." And younger DUers may be surprised to find that the media played a role.

On 12-14-1971, Jack Anderson reported on "top secret" administration meetings that discussed highly sensitive material on the US position on the India vs Pakistan war. Very few officials had been involved in the meetings, and the White House -- intent on stopping all "leaks" -- had a group of fellows known as "the plumbers" attempt to find the source of the leak so it could be plugged.

Rear Admiral Robert Welander served as a connection between the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon and Henry Kissinger's NSC. Welander pointed a finger at a young Navy officer who served as his assistant (always take special notice of Naval officers!). It turned out this young fellow had been copying NSC documents for years for the Chairman of the JCS, Admiral Thomas Moorer. Moorer had information on the things that Nixon considered the most sensitive of his secrets, including that of his administration's corresponding with China.

What is fascinating is that Welander would implicate a military man named Al Haig, who would play a curious role in the Nixon administration during the Watergate years. Haig has given a number of contradictory statements about his concerns with what occured in those years, including on if his goal was to protect "the president" or "the presidency." Under oath on 12-3-73, he told Judge Sirica about what he called "a devil theory." Haig believed "some sinister force" was responsible for erasing parts of one tape. Haig made clear that he knew Rose Mary Woods did not mistakenly erase it. Sirica asked, "Has anyone ever suggested who that sinister force might be?" Haig said that it was "vital" to identify who had access to the tapes. Sirica answered, "Precisely." (Emery; page 418) For many years, these actions caused many to suspect that Al Haig might have been one of the sources that Woodward called "Deep Throat."

{4) "Dorothy Hunt was suspicious of McCord, the wireman at Watergate, who she thought was a double agent." ("Watergate"; Fred Emery; page 229)

The White House recognized that there was tension between them and the various intelligence groups. Thus, in order to further their own political agenda, they would form there own "secret" intelligence groups. This should remind DUers of the Bush/Cheney administration.

A question worth considering is would the other forces in the intelligence community (a) be aware of what the White House was doing; and, if so, (b) attempt to infiltrate the White House operations? To do so, they would need to plant a "double agent" within the White House operation.

In the early days of the Nixon scandals, a significant amount of the intelligence operations were run from the offices of the Committee to re-elect the President (CREEP). A secret services agent, Al Wong, would recommend that CREEP hire a retired CIA officer who specialized in security operations. James was soon hired as CREEP's security coordinator.

McCord was a WW2 Air Force veteran. He had served as an FBI agent for three years, then was in the CIA from 1950 to 1971. He had specialized in domestic spying, and as such, was an expert at both break-ins and electronic. It is likely that he had been acquainted with E. Howard Hunt in some capacity years before being hired by CREEP.

In his work for CREEP, he had contact with Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy. At this time, among other things, Liddy was considering killing Jack Anderson as a "rational response" to the reporter's columns, which Liddy believed were responsible for the death of a CIA agent. (See Liddy's book, "Will.") He and Hunt were also involved in plans for several break-ins of political enemies of the White House. It has been suggested that, because CREEP was being run by politicians who were not intelligence operatives (think Rove, Cheney, Libby, etc), that they talked far too much, and agencies such as CI were well aware of their plans.

McCord ran his own small "security" firm after retiring from the Agency. Hunt and Liddy approached him to participate in the bugging of the offices of the democrats at the Watergate. McCord would later testify that he was under the impression that these operations had been undertaken under the authority of Mitchell, Dean, and Nixon. (Hence, while he may have had cause to want the operations exposed, he did not anticipate being incarcerated for an extended period for his role.)

At the time, McCord had been providing "security" for John Mitchell. This included checking his apartment for bugs, transporting his family, and hiring a retired FBI agent named Alfred Baldwin to protect Martha Mitchell. (I suspect older DUers are grinning when they think of the implications of that.)

{5} "If we didn't know better (we) would have thought it was deliberately botched." -- Richard Nixon on the Watergate break-in

By May of 1972. G.Gordon Liddy began to notice a strange pattern of behavior in his dealings with McCord. The former CIA operative, who knew exactly how to keep his activities secret, had kept precise records of all the money that CREEP was spending on electronics equipment. More, although McCord could have easily used his connections through his private company, he opted to go through the Yellow Pages to locate and buy the electronic equipment to be used in bugging the Democratic Headquarters. And strangest of all, McCord went to the Federal Communications Commission to get approval for the frequencies his hidden transmiters would use -- something Liddy compared to registering a gun you plan to use in a hold-up.

In late May, in time for the Memorial Day weekend, McCord rented a room at the Howard Johnson's opposite the Watergate. He registered the room in his private firm's name, again leaving a solid trail. McCord brought in Alfred Baldwin, who would later testify that he was impressed with the electronic set-up that McCord had. In fact, McCord let him listen in on a phone conversation, which is curious, because the buglars had not planted any bugs yet. This raises the questions of who McCord had already bugged, and who was he really working for?

The first break-in was successful in that the buglars got in, planted the bugs, and got out without being detected. However, McCord would reportedly convince Liddy that the bugs were not working properly, and that he was not getting the intelligence information needed. There is some confusion about this: McCord would say the re-entry was Liddy's idea; and there is reason to question if the original bugs worked well or not.

Liddy would later express his concerns about McCord. In Emery's book, it is noted that many of the things McCord would claim later were simply not true, in regard to alarms and other things that an operative with his experience would be unlikely to be confused about. Emery focuses on Liddy noting McCord's habit of "always slipping away ... he hated to stay in one place very long .... sometimes he would just loited in the shadows, so to speak, trying hard not to be noticed. I wasn't sure whether this was the product of long clandestine-induced caution or a lack of nerve." (Emery; pages 120-1)

In June, McCord again stationed Baldwin in the Howard Johnson's across from the Watergate. Another mysterious figure was there: Louis Russell, called the "sixth man" in James Hougan's "Secret Agenda," was also at the scene. Russell is an interesting person. He had been connected to Nixon in the 1948 investigation of Alger Hiss, but more recently was employed by McCord's private agency, and served as an informant for Jack Anderson. Russell admitted to FBI investigators that he was at the Howard Johnson's on June 16; he died the day he was summoned to testify before the Senate Watergate Committee, from a heart attack.

The night of the break-in, McCord called Hunt and Liddy at 12:45 to say the offices they targeted were "dark." Both Hunt and Liddy would comment that it took McCord an unexplained long time to then meet them. He brought six walkie-talkies, two of which had dead batteries. Liddy thought this was "unprofessional."

The burglars would contradict each other on who taped, re-taped, and/or untaped the doors inside the Watergate. Most evidence indicates that it was McCord, and that he was not honest when telling his partners exactly what he did. What is not in dispute is that a night watchman found the taped doors, and called the police.

The nearest marked car did not respond. Instead, a TAC unite (tactical, meaning undercover car & officers) arrived was at the Watergate within 90 seconds. Alfred Baldwin, on look-out, saw what appeared to be a couple "hippies" walking through the Watergate. He was not concerned until it was too late.

More, someone had convinced the other burglars to turn off their walkie-talkies, so that they could be totally silent. Thus, the undercover police were abled to easily follow the taped doors to burglars. It is worth noting that taping the doors served no practical purpose for the burglars -- it is easy to walk out of a locked door. Thus, the purpose of an experienced operative's taping those doors has never been explained.

{6} "...if we are going to have that funny guy take credit ...."
-- President Nixon on tape, referring to the plan to blame the CIA for the Watergate break-in by using McCord.

When the TAC unit caught the burglars, the first thing any of the suspects said McCord: "Are you Metropolitian police?" When the suspects were arraigned, he would tell the judge that he was a retired CIA agent. And, while in jail, McCord would destroy the administration's efforts to tie the break-in to "national security" operations by the CIA.

McCord would write an infamous anonymous letter to a White House official, making clear that the top officials were going to be exposed; he wrote numerous letters to Richard Helms at the CIA, sharingvital information; he had his wife share copies of private letters to at least one reporter; and he blew the lid off the case when he approached Judge Sirica. Later, he provided investigators with information about Robert Reisner, who testified that Magruder attended all three GEMSTONE meetings.

Perhaps more than any other single figure, James McCord would destabilize the Nixon administration. Was it just a series of unlikely coincidences? A person could make that case, I suppose. I think the evidence indicates otherwise.

What do you think?

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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you ...
I have only vague childhood memories of Nixon's fall ... I have been looking for a coherent recap to compare to the Chimps possible (I pray probable) fall.

"No one " thought Nixon would go down (at first) ... there is hope.
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redacted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. I remember Watergate vividly. Things can indeed change quickly in D.C.
Yes, I agree with you. I was in Jr. High at the time. I spent hours watching those hearings live on TV, including John Dean's historic testimony.

And despite the events and the breaking stories, as late as a few weeks before Nixon resigned, there nevertheless seemed to be a national sense of denial (especially in the South) that a United States president could actually be driven from office.

Things can change rapidly and unpredictably in Washington, and the current regime in power knows that lesson, too. I wonder if their awareness of that fact, demonstrated powerfully by Watergate, doesn't explain some of their risky (and quite possibly ill-conceived) actions in the Plame case.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. People have forgotten the lessons of Nixon
And some don't even know.

BUT the Republicans never forgot. That is exactly why they stole the media first and the elections second.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. I no longer believe in coincidences
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nicely done, H2O Man!
(Yes, I am smiling at the Martha Mitchell reference.) MUCH to digest here!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. I thought that's why the cabal sent in Porter Goss -- to stage a coup
in CIA before they found themselves in the Nixon position.

I hope they were late. :)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Porter Goss
forced a lot of good people out of the Agency. As McCord shows, even a retired agent may still be capable of doing a lot of work.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Who Is There To Be Our McCord
if anyone? Do you think retired agents, besides the obvious ones like L. Johnson, are working to bring the truth forth?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Good question.
I'd suggest looking beyong Plame, and focusing a little on this neocon spy scandal. It might be worth our while to concentrate on that for a few days. I'm thinking that the two cases, when combined, will be a case of synergism.

I think that there are a number of people who are, like Mr. Johnson, working behind the scenes. Perhaps some are in strategic positions that even Scotter Libby can't figure out. Kind of hard to have the success these two prosecutors are having without there being an inside source or two. I'll bet that has caused the level of paranoia and mistrust in the administration to go plumb off the charts.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Hmm...could Larry Franklin himself be a McCord?
No hard proof, just wondering out loud. McCord took quite a hit himself in helping to take down the Nixon administration and Franklin's taking quite a hit too. It looked for a while like it would just be him, but now that two more have been indicted in the AIPAC scandal, I wonder if this is just the tip of the iceberg, if career criminals like Feith are really as insulated as they think they are.

I think there is more to Franklin than meets the eye. When the case first broke, I thought he was just another corrupt neo-con. But this article by Karen Kwiatkowski, who I respect immensely, casts things in a different light:

Spies in the Pentagon?

by Karen Kwiatkowski

snip

The story of spies in the Pentagon will percolate, no doubt. I have no answers, but perhaps the questions themselves will help explain what is going on in the current administration, and the administration that is sure to come.

Was the release of Larry’s name at this time politically motivated? And was that to hurt the Bush presidency or to save it, as Laura Rozen muses, with a "controlled burn"?

Why would Larry need to give draft documents on policy anywhere in the Middle East to AIPAC, when all the big decisions are already coordinated between Israel and the U.S. at far higher levels?

Why is Larry the result of FBI investigational success instead of the names of the Pentagon senior operatives who shared classified information with Ahmad Chalabi regarding American success in reading coded Tehran communications, specifically now as neoconservatives rage for war in Iran? Or instead of the names of senior White House operatives who revealed and destroyed the U.S. security mission of Valerie Plame?

more...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski91.html

Interestingly, Kwiatkowski does not think of Franklin as a neo-con Pentagon spy. Hopefully, more information will be revealed by McNulty as the AIPAC scandal unravels that will show us the real Larry Franklin.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. Juan Cole connected the strands of AIPAC & Plame last September.
From September 30:

Is Justice Being Delayed by Bush Administration Politics?

snip

We now know that the Niger story involved the forgery of documents by a man with ties to Italian military intelligence, and that moreover Italian military intelligence has ties to Michael Ledeen, Harold Rhode and Lawrence Franklin, pro-Likud Neoconservatives, two of whom had high-level positions in the Pentagon and all three of whom were tightly networked with the American Enterprise Institute. Franklin (a Neoconservative Catholic) is being investigated for spying on the US for Israel. The nexus of Italian military intelligence, the office of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, and the Neoconservatives in the Pentagon suggests a network of conspiracy aimed at dragging the US into wars against Iraq and Iran. The Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq after the war was in some significant part staffed by young people who had initially applied to work at the American Enterprise Institute as interns.

Joe Wilson was sent to Niger by the CIA in response to a request by Dick Cheney that they investigate the story of the Iraq uranium purchases, and he came to the (correct) conclusion that the whole idea was implausible given the structure of the industry in Niger, which was heavily under the control of European companies. The Neoconservatives around Dick Cheney, including Scooter Libby and John Hannah, were highly commited to the Niger uranium story as a casus belli against Iraq, and were furious when Wilson revealed that he had shown it false in spring of 2002. They were convinced that the CIA was behind this strike at their credibility, and that Valerie Plame had been the one who managed to get Wilson sent. That is, in their paranoid world, Wilson's honest reportage of the facts was a CIA plot against the Iraq War and perhaps against the Neoconservatives around Cheney and in the Pentagon.


It has been being leaked for many months now that the FBI believes the leak came from persons in Cheney's circle, possibly John Hannah and/or Scooter Libby. The FBI could well be ready to move in the case. But I have been told that it has orders from the White House to back off until later this fall.

There has likewise been no arrest of Franklin, though one was expected by now. This is not, as the Neoconservatives and their supporters in the press are beginning to allege, because the case against Franklin is weak. Rumors are flying in Washington that the FBI found a whole cache of classified documents in his house. If this is true, it was illegal for him to keep them there. We know that the evidence against Franklin was so air tight that Franklin was turned by the FBI, and was attempting to gather incriminating evidence against other Neoconservatives on their behalf. At some point the FBI as a courtesy let Franklin's boss, Douglas Feith, know of their investigation, and apparently soon after the story was leaked to the press.

Is it possible that Franklin hasn't been charged yet not because the case is weak, but because the White House does not want to anger the powerful AIPAC lobbying organization just before an election, and does not want to risk alienating Neoconservative voters in swing states like Florida? Indeed, isn't it likely that the Franklin investigation was leaked to the press by persons in the Pentagon who feared they were under investigation, and who knew very well that such a story leaked in late August before the election would get the investigation squelched or much delayed?

more...

http://www.juancole.com/2004_09_01_juancole_archive.html#109652236719817825
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. I don't get it, but I'm slow.
How would Larry Franklin end up in the OSP? According to Karen he hasn't revealed any neocon colors. I would, at first glance, not expect for him to be trusted amongst the other neocons in the OSP.

From your link:

"I don’t think of Larry Franklin, a guy I like and respect. When I was there in 2002 and 2003, Larry was the Iran desk officer with the Defense Under Secretary for Policy, Near East South Asia, moving later to the Office of Special Plans, where ostensibly Iraq policy was made.

Larry is an interesting and kind person with a lot of great stories. He came into our cubicle one morning feeling energetic, and demonstrated a Karate kick of some kind that to this day still impresses me. Here’s a little guy in a suit, over 50 years in age, and he can do the move. I asked him where he learned to do that. He said he had to learn self-defense because he grew up dirt poor, short and small, in a slum in Baltimore, one of the few white kids in his neighborhood. I believed him. He worked for everything he had, all the way to his Ph.D. Along the way, he got married and had a whole passel of kids, safely ensconced hours away from the superficialities and mean streets of Washington, D.C.

The pre-Republican National Convention weekend story is that Larry gave draft Iran policy guidance and other info to AIPAC representatives, in hopes of communicating a level of concern for what was going on in Iraq to his higher ups in the Pentagon, specifically Doug Feith and Paul Wolfowitz.

Somehow, having to go outside the system to get the Pentagon brass to show concern about what is really going on in Iraq doesn’t surprise me at all. "

Could you spell it out for me? Please. I am not getting the connection.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. The information Franklin
shared was classified; he had no business showing it to people from a "lobbying" group under any circumstances. Second, the information was shared with people from a foreign government.

Larry will be tried for his actions, not for his personality. He was engaged in espionage.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. I Believe That You've Stepped On Some Disinformation
Two important names in RP's post are Michael Ledeen and Harold Rhode. Ledeen is as close to being the neocon's neocon as anyone can get. As far as "in hopes of communicating a level of concern for what was going on in Iraq to his higher ups in the Pentagon, specifically Doug Feith and Paul Wolfowitz", that is sheer nonsense, give state secrets to the Israelis as a way of telling the higher up you're worried about Iraq?

First of all, these neos are closely connected to Israel especially Ledeen, Wolfowitz and Perle. The great plan was first Iraq, a "victory" that was to be the precursor to invading Iran and Syria. The Israeli neo-cons aka Likudniks have always felt that to insure the security of Israel, Iran had to be taken out. Iraq was only the first, conveniently oil laden, step. Secondly, Pentagon brass know what's going on in Iran just as they did in Iraq. It wasn't the Pentagon who made a false case for a fake war but the neos. The civilian "leadership" in the Pentagon were the ones who had the power and kicked the bejesus out of anyone who didn't go along to get along. Remember Shinseki?
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. What I was referring to in my post was.......
RP suggested that maybe Franklin could be our McCord. The mole or double agent or whatever you want to call it. I couldn't understand why he would be swooped up for the OSP. He would really have to be an insider I would think. So that was the point of my post. I don't get it.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Franklin
is a bureaucrat who has shown himself to be something of an opportunist .... last year, he was preparing to take advantage of an opportunity to plead guilty and cooperate with the prosecutor, but for an unexplained reason, decided to fight this in court.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. So in your opinion....
he couldn't be one of the good guys then.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Not at this time.
I do not.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Karen Kwiatkowski was also swooped up for the OSP.
Look how she turned out.

You may be right, he might just be a conniving neo-con who fucked up by being caught doing espionage. Kwiatkowski thinks he isn't the type. True, she's just going by the personality she picked up that Franklin projected. Then again, different people have expressed their animosity for the misadministration in different ways. I'll have to see what McNulty says before I can pass more informed judgement instead of just guessing, but Kwiatkowski's doubts in regard to Franklin's personality make me think it's possible Franklin may have fucked up on purpose, much like McCord.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. This Will Be Interesting
my view of Franklin is of someone whose ideology got too big for his breeches, or a gopher for one of the other neos. Now I'll have to wait and see if your theory is true. Do you know if he is a member of Opus Dei, like Hansen? That could give us a big clue as to who or what he really is.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Franklin's still kind of a mystery to me.
When word of his indictment broke, I figured he was either a thug or a tool. You're right, Kwiatkowski has shown that there is a lot of neocon disinformation floating around about this. Why hasn't Feith or Wolfowitz been the focus of this investigation? Are Franklin and the others falling on their swords for them? Or will Franklin or perhaps a different OSP witness pull a McCord at the sentencing and reveal the truth?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. And no, I don't know if he's Opus Dei or not. I'll see what I can find out.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. You'll Love This
If you haven't already seen it.

“They say all roads lead to Rome. Well, this one certainly does. It's a road that starts in Paris, at the door of Iranian arms dealer and Mossad double agent Manucher Ghorbanifar, a man known to the CIA as an "intelligence fabricator". It's a road that runs through Niger uranium mines, past a Genoan fascist organization operating as a parallel Italian intelligence network with ties to Rocco Martino, and down the streets of Milan, where a CIA operative, now considered a fugitive at large by Italian authorities, once operated.

Ultimately, however, it is a road that does not end in Rome. It runs past that ancient icon of Imperial corruption and leads us to Washington D.C., past a Federal Investigation into Israeli espionage and right up to the steps of the White House and Dick Cheney's Office of Special Plans.” Cont…

“Back in 1984, Michael Ledeen put forward the idea of using Manucher Ghorbanifar to make illegal arms sales to Iran. The CIA's Deputy Director for Operations, Clair George, deemed Ghorbanifar totally unreliable. He felt that Ghorbanifar, a MOSSAD double agent, had Israel's security as his only priority. But George Bush Sr., having dealt with Ghorbanifar in Paris prior to the infamous "October Surprise" that got Ronald Reagan elected, agreed with Ledeen and so Ghorbanifar became the middleman in what became known as the Iran-Contra affair. In fact, Oliver North testified that the diversion of funds to the Contras was proposed to him by
Ghorbanifar during a meeting in January 1986.

Ghorbanifar, a former Iranian spy who helped launch the Iran-contra affair, says one of the things he discussed with Defense officials Harold Rhode and Larry Franklin at meetings in Rome in December 2001 (and in Paris last June with only Rhode) was regime change in Iran....The Pentagon cut off contact with Ghorbanifar, whom the CIA years ago labeled as a fabricator, after news about the talks broke last summer....But Ghorbanifar says he continued to communicate with Rhode, and sometimes Franklin, by phone and fax five or six times a week until shortly after the Paris meeting last summer (June 2002).

The important points to note in the Newsweek article were this:

1: The two Americans at the meeting were
a) Harold Rhode, a member of the Office of Special Plans, protege of Michael Ledeen and the liason between the administration and Ahmed Chalabi and b) Larry Franklin, formerly of the Office of Special Plans, whom the FBI arrested for giving away secrets to Israel through the organization AIPAC.” Cont…

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/22/7563/12283
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Very important.
Ghorbanitar and his ilk were advocating for the aggressive policy. Also keep in mind what Justin Raimondo reported a while back about Franklin's indictment hinting about his possibly passing information about the US breaking the Iranian codes (allowing our intelligence agencies to read Tehran's internal communications), and that got back to Chalabi. I'm sure DUers will remember what a good ally Chalabi proved to be in regard to keeping that secret.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Here's more AIPAC info from tompaine.com
This article asks some great questions:

Bigger Than AIPAC
Robert Dreyfuss
August 09, 2005

snip

First, the indictment says that from "about April 1999 and continuing until on or about August 27, 2004" Franklin, Rosen and Weissman "did unlawfully, knowingly and willfully conspire" in criminal activity against the United States. So far, no one has explained what triggered an investigation that began more than six years ago. But it reveals how long the three indicted conspirators and "others, known and unknown to the Grand Jury," engaged in such criminal activity. In any case, what appeared at first to be a brief dalliance between Franklin and the two AIPAC officials now—according to the latest indictment, at least—spans more than five years and involves at least several other individuals, at least some of whom are known to the investigation. What triggered the investigation in 1999, and how much information has FBI surveillance, wiretaps and other investigative efforts collected?

Second, the indictment makes it absolutely clear that the investigation was aimed at AIPAC, not at Franklin. The document charges that Rosen and Weissman met repeatedly with officials from a foreign government (Israel, though not named in the indictment) beginning in 1999, to provide them with classified information. In other words, the FBI was looking into the Israel lobby, not Franklin and the Defense Department, at the start, and Franklin was simply caught up in the net when he made contact with the AIPACers. Rosen and Weissman were observed making illicit contact with several other U.S. officials between 1999 and 2004, although those officials are left unnamed (and unindicted). Might there be more to come? Who are these officials, cited merely as United States Government Official 1, USGO 2, etc.?

Third, Franklin was introduced to Rosen-Weissman when the two AIPACers "called a Department of Defense employee (DOD employee A) at the Pentagon and asked for the name of someone in OSD ISA with an expertise on Iran" and got Franklin's name. Who was "DOD employee A"? Was it Douglas Feith, the undersecretary for policy? Harold Rhode, the ghost-like neocon official who helped Feith assemble the secretive Office of Special Plans, where Franklin worked? The indictment doesn't say. But this reporter observed Franklin, Rhode and Michael Rubin, a former AEI official who served in the Pentagon during this period and then returned to AEI, sitting together side by side, often in the front row, at American Enterprise Institute meetings during 2002-2003. Later in the indictment, we learn that Franklin, Rosen and Weissman hobnobbed with "DOD employee B," too.

Fourth, Rosen and Weissman told Franklin that they would try to get him a job at the White House, on the National Security Council staff. Who did they talk to at the White House, if they followed through? What happened?

more great questions...

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20050809/bigger_than_aipac.php
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Really Good Article
Justin Raimondo wrote an article about this too and has a pdf for the indictment if you want to cherry pick some more.

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6890
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Look At This!
This year old article by Buchanan spells out the history of the neos and what they will do to get us into war and how they betray us at the drop of a hat.

<<<snip>>>
“The principal draftsman is Richard Perle, an aide to Sen. Scoop Jackson, who, in 1970, was overheard on a federal wiretap discussing classified information from the National Security Council with the Israeli Embassy. In Jews and American Politics, published in 1974, Stephen D. Isaacs wrote, “Richard Perle and Morris Amitay command a tiny army of Semitophiles on Capitol Hill and direct Jewish power in behalf of Jewish interests.” In 1983, the New York Times reported that Perle had taken substantial payments from an Israeli weapons manufacturer.”

http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Wow! This is making my blood boil!
Especially these passages about Michael Ledeen:

Ledeen, however, is less frivolous. In The War Against the Terror Masters, he identifies the exact regimes America must destroy:

First and foremost, we must bring down the terror regimes, beginning with the Big Three: Iran, Iraq, and Syria. And then we have to come to grips with Saudi Arabia. … Once the tyrants in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have been brought down, we will remain engaged. …We have to ensure the fulfillment of the democratic revolution. … Stability is an unworthy American mission, and a misleading concept to boot. We do not want stability in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and even Saudi Arabia; we want things to change. The real issue is not whether, but how to destabilize.

Rejecting stability as “an unworthy American mission,” Ledeen goes on to define America’s authentic “historic mission”:

Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. … e must destroy them to advance our historic mission.


It's people like Ledeen that expose the neocon machine for its true fascist nature.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Some good passages on Wurmser too.
In the Perle-Feith-Wurmser strategy, Israel’s enemy remains Syria, but the road to Damascus runs through Baghdad. Their plan, which urged Israel to re-establish “the principle of preemption,” has now been imposed by Perle, Feith, Wurmser & Co. on the United States.

In his own 1997 paper, “A Strategy for Israel,” Feith pressed Israel to re-occupy “the areas under Palestinian Authority control,” though “the price in blood would be high.”

Wurmser, as a resident scholar at AEI, drafted joint war plans for Israel and the United States “to fatally strike the centers of radicalism in the Middle East. Israel and the United States should … broaden the conflict to strike fatally, not merely disarm, the centers of radicalism in the region—the regimes of Damascus, Baghdad, Tripoli, Tehran, and Gaza. That would establish the recognition that fighting either the United States or Israel is suicidal.”

He urged both nations to be on the lookout for a crisis, for as he wrote, “Crises can be opportunities.” Wurmser published his U.S.-Israeli war plan on Jan. 1, 2001, nine months before 9/11.


Wurmser, of course, has his dirty fingerprints all over the Plame scandal.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Mr. & Mrs. Wurmser
deserve DUers close attention. A year ago, a noted DUer had a column on here asking people for information on neocons involved in a specific scandal. I pointed to Wurmser. DUers should be interested in his role in determining the direction this country has been heading in.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Mrs. Wurmser? Is this her?
Meyrav Wurmser

Director, Center for Middle East Policy
Senior Fellow




Hudson Institute, Washington, D.C. Office



Areas of Expertise

Middle East
Israeli and Palestinian politics



Biographical Highlights

Dr. Meyrav Wurmser, the former Executive Director of the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), is a leading scholar of the Arab world. Through her work at MEMRI, Wurmser helped to educate policymakers about the Palestinian Authority two-track approach to “negotiating peace” with Israel: calling for peace in the English press and with Western policymakers while inciting hatred and violence through official Arab language media. A recent BBC documentary noted that whereas almost every other Western and Israeli observer allowed their hopes for peace to cloud their judgment of the Oslo process, Wurmser’s acute knowledge of the Palestinian Authority’s tactics led her to realize that the Oslo process was doomed to failure from the outset.




Publications and Media Exposure

Dr. Wurmser is a frequent guest on radio and television, including BBC, Fox News, CNN, PBS and CNBC. Wurmser has written numerous books and monographs on Israel, the Arab world, and Zionism, including Building Free Societies in Iraq and Afghanistan (Hudson Institue, 2004) and The Schools of Ba'athism--a Study of Syrian Schoolbooks (MEMRI, 2000). Wurmser, who has taught political science at the Johns Hopkins University and the United States Naval Academy, has published articles in such publications as the Weekly Standard, the Middle East Quarterly, the Washington Times, the Middle East Journal and Middle East Insight.

http://www.hudson.org/learn/index.cfm?fuseaction=staff_bio&eid=Wurmser
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Oh boy. Here's more:
Mrs Wurmser was among a group of neo-conservatives who wrote a report intended as advice for the then incoming Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996.

Pentagon

The report, called "Rebuilding Zionism" called for a clean break with the Middle East peace process and talked about "rolling back Syria".

It also spoke about removing Saddam Hussein from power.

Other signatories of that report included Richard Perle, David Wurmser and Douglas Feith - who is now number three at the Pentagon.

more...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3034221.stm
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Yes.
Part of the neocon spy scandal should be a study of about a dozen people involved in it. Ledeen deserves special attention.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. I agree.
This neocon spy scandal is going to go deep. I don't trust Douglas Feith and I'd be willing to bet he has done a lot of damage already.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
7. If a group of CIA folks and friends had decided in 71 that in order to
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 11:15 AM by papau
save democracy they had to lay a trail, that does not mean the CIA at the top was pushing this idea.

As you may recall, the CIA was out of control under Dulles as we killed elections in "Nam in 54, thereby starting the the US/Vietnam war, and they felt free to save the world's oil by killing the socialist PM of Iran - (or saving at least 60% of the worlds oil as IKE would boast to his brother in his letter after we ended democracy in Iran and installed the Shah), and the CIA's killing of many social democrats in Africa is well documented - the most famous of which was the (IKE?)CIA approval of Larry Devlin, the CIA station chief in Leopoldville, doing the dirty deed to Patrice Lumumba of the Congo.

In the Henry Kissinger days this continued, so I doubt an institutional attempt to save American Democracy was made by the CIA back in the 70's.

However the coffee and breakfast in Alexandria on Saturday morning get together with friends, or the pitcher of beer with and pizza in Arlington Saturday night with those same friends, who may have had CIA backgrounds, is a scenario that seems reasonable to me.

If anything is happening now, it is I am sure just friends putting something together, and not a CIA institutional action.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. Very valid points.
There is a tendency to talk about things with a broad brush. I do know that you are right, of course -- even a group of four of five people taking an action do not necessarily represent an agency. Far from it. Any agency (an especially a large one) will have factions. And some factions may be more honorable than others.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks for the history lesson. I really need to get a Watergate book.
Perhaps you could recommend one since it appears you have read them all.

Anyhoo....

It appears that you are speculating that perhaps (and hopefully so) there could be a double agent on the inside. I had that thought this morning.

I am sure you read the story yesterday regarding Judith Miller's and Libby's meeting on July 8, 2003. And the speculation that Fitzgerald may know through a witness or someone that Libby had documents with him during their meeting. I was thinking yesterday that maybe they met in a public place and Miller was being followed. However today I read in an American Conservative article:

"The surmise on antiwar internet websites has been that after Wilson wrote the Times piece, the White House decided there had to be damage control, and one piece of the story put out was that Wilson was not credible because he was a Democrat who had been sent to Niger by his wife, a CIA functionary involved in tracking WMD. Judith Miller might well have learned of the "story" by Chalabi, who had been feeding her propaganda on Iraq for years that she had been dutifully reporting for the NYT. She could not report on this Chalabi "tip" without verification, so she asked for the July 8 meeting with Scooter Libby in the Veep's office. In that meeting, Libby would confirm the tip from Chalabi."
(I don't know how to make that snippet box...duh)

From this article it appears that the meeting took place in the Office of the VP. Now how in the heck would he know that. Then I assumed that it is probably from Libby's testimony. Because you remember that Fitzgerald has already stated that he knows who leaked to Miller.

The interesting part is this: How would Fitzgerald know that Libby had documents with him. Was it part of his testimony? Libby wouldn't testify that he had a copy of "the memo" with him, would he? And if he wouldn't, was that statement in the article a hint to the Bush Administration that there is someone on the inside? Then again they would have already known about document request from Judith's supoena.

I hope you are right. I hope we have a mole or a double agent. I hope he has been in place for a long long time.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. But Who Did Chalabi Get The Info About Plame From?
Wolfowitz?
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. The author is thinking out loud.
He makes the assumption that Chalabi was the original leaker to Miller. We don't know that. I don't know that Libby's July 8th meeting with Miller showing her some kind of document needs to be corroborated by another source. IF Libby showed her "The Memo" what other verification would she need? Certainly she wouldn't need corroboration if Miller was just going to be a conduit to other reporters. What do you think?

My curiosity is peeked regarding Fitzgerald's knowledge of documents being shown to Miller at the meeting. How does he know that?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. But Chalabi Didn't Have The Security Clearance
needed to obtain that info and as the CIA had no love for him they sure as shootin' didn't give him the info, even if he knew to ask. The info had to come first from someone who had clearance. They could have provided Chalabu with the info and he then passed it to Miller, but I don't see any way he could have been the original source for the leak. Further Chalabi wasn't part of the "work-up" meetings and could have only had knowledge of this if he was led to it by someone else.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Maybe Hadley?
What do you think about Carville's comments today that he has some sort of inside information about more subpoenas for the folks at the New York Times?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I Favor Wolfowitz
because he and Perle were well known Chalabi champions, As to Carville's comments, I think given the info coming out that Keller and Sulzberger may have been the recipients of JM confidences and with whom she may have shared the name of her source, it seems as suitable. Neither, I believe, served as her attorney and were no more entitled to that info than you or I. They add another link to the chain and just as Time faced stiff penalties so the Times should also be forced to 'fess up. This scandal and Ms. Miller's contrivances may very well bring the old gray lady to her knees.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. When considering Wolfowitz versus Hadley,
one would do well to consider their past histories. Both are actually fairly low-key compared to other senior officials. One, however, enjoys the spotlight and being at the center of attention more than the other.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
10. I think,...
,...the intelligence network is bigger, stronger, smarter and more "patriotic" than the BushCo/neoCON cabal. I believe the intelligence network takes its duty to protect this nation from tyranny very seriously and that there is no question of the imposition of economic, social and political tyranny. Hence, in my view, the possibility of the intelligence network setting up traps to expose the egregious illegalities of the BushCo/neoCON cabal is great.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Parts of it,
anyhow. There is reason to believe that there are both good and bad forces in the intelligence community.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. I should have qualified,...
,...with a significant chunk of the intelligence community,...
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. And while that was going on
They were screwing with the composition of SCOTUS, they had begun the Southern Strategy (disenfranchisement of voters) and despite VP Agnew going down on embezzlement charges the pugs felt safe from scrutiny.

Amazing how the GOP has changed over the years. :sarcasm:
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. I always like your history lessons H20
And I was looking for the update on the thread last night where dubby was attempting to manipulate Fitzgeralds boss to be a skull and boner.
Just when the investigations are coming together in a perfect storm, the neocons must reach deep to try to obfuscate and divert. I sure hope their are people working long and hard to get these remnants of the Nixon Corruption out of office and America for good. They have been screwing up the country for many years and enriching themselves with our hard earned money.

And I hope it all happens in time. We don't really have 5 or 10 years to clean them out.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. It's important to realize
that Jim Comey's replacement isn't likely to play any role whatsoever. Fitzgerald would have to make some error for his supervisor to have any say. (Archibald Cox actually did; although this wasn't the real reason Nixon fired him, it gave him the opportunity to begin to interfere.) It isn't going to happen in this case.

The White House is going to make serious attempts to derail the cases against senior officials in both the Plame and neocon spy scandals. But it isn't very likely to be with the prosecutors. The judges involved have more say than people realize. Look for the "national security" card to be played, and then a few more desperate attempts.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. Did you have any comment about my post...number 8?
I was just wondering?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Yes, actually a couple ....
There are numerous good books on Watergate. I would always suggest starting with Woodward & Bernstein's "All the President's Men." It's a fantastic book. Woodward's recent "The Secret Man" is good, too, though he is not really revealing much that didn't come out in the newspapers about Felt. He surely didn't speak openly about their early relationship.

Regarding what Scooter had with him, I would speculate that Judith Miller ran her mouth to a couple other people. But that is only one possibility. Another is Mr. Hannah, the forgotten witness. If I were to say what I am betting on, it would be a combination of Miller's big mouth (before the shit hit the fan), and Hannah's talking (after the shit hit the fan). I probably would bet a good sum of money on that, in fact.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. That is very interesting.....and you could be right.
Isn't is curious about Carville's revelation today that other NY Time's people are going to be subpoened?

Perhaps she took her story story to the editor and he said "shine" we can't run with that because of the illegality.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. I have another question.
Do you think it is possible that Bush and Cheney have testified before the Grand Jury? We know that they were interviewed with their respective counsels present at the WH. Do you think it is possible that they were supoenaed? And if so. Do you think they refused and/or are fighting the supoena secretly through the courts? They have never cooperated with any investigations to date.

I am just dying to know if they will be implicated in the eventual indictments. I don't know how that could be done without their testimonies. I would doubt very highly that anyone (other than a mole) would have implicated them through their testimony. I just don't understand how in the heck they would not be asked to answer questions before the Grand Jury. I would also suspect that if they in fact did testify it would be on the serious hush hush. I realize everything is just speculation. I am just asking for an educated guess.

I cannot wait for this whole thing to go down. I hope it is soon and I hope it is bloody. Please don't disappoint Mr. Fitzgerald.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Good question plus one more. Believe they were interviewed,
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 01:05 PM by Pithy Cherub
but I don't think it was sworn testimony at that time.

What really would be a kick in the pants is if they were inteviewed by FBI agents and answered pertinent questions. Now, that would be really rich to have them in the Martha Stewart penalty box... :evilgrin:

The parallels are endlessly fascinating for this history buff. :popcorn:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Very important question.
This is why I think DU is such a valuable site. Now, regarding Bush and President Cheney: it is of extreme significance that they "talked" to Fitzgerald. They are admitting that they have information that is of interest by doing so. The clear implication is that at the very least, both were involved in discussions relating to who was involved after the fact. However, especially in Cheney's case, there is reason to suspect he was questioned about meetings which occured before Wilson's op-ed was even printed.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. Great writing for the 31st anniversary of Nixon's resignation, H2O Man!
I just recently rented the 5 part Watergate documentary you mentioned earlier. It was great, but didn't really go into detail about why Jack Anderson was so hated. It just went into how crazy Liddy was taking Magruder's frustration over Anderson's columns as an order to kill Anderson. So thanks for clarifying that incident and educating me about the Moorer-Radford affair.

Another thing that documentary didn't explore was the connection between Watergate and the Canuck Letter that Woodward and Bernstein uncovered. I guess, like AIPAC and Plame, they are all separate strands of the same forces of corruption.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Kick it to the top!
:kick:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Right, exactly right ....
"Watergate" is a series of crimes. Much like Iran-Contra is a series of scandals .... and Plame is not limited to one or two foolish phone calls. A person could take five different avenues in examining distinct, though related crimes that have been put into the "Watergate" heading.

I have to try not to just babble on and on .... because what fascinates me probably is dry and boring for most people .... but even in examining what the House of Representatives had as options for charging Nixon as impeachable offenses is interesting. There were a few republicans who tried to put in weak charges, in order to increase Nixon's ability to make it look "political" rather than criminal. This is why, as I hope to discuss later in the week, it isn't always as easy as it would seem to file the correct charges. Fitzgerald knows he gets one shot at this -- meaning at anyone involved. So we might want indictments right away .... but we must be patient, because even more than indictments, this case demands convictions.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. A question for you, H2O Man.
In regard to filing the right indictments to be sure to obtain convictions, I am wondering about whether a sitting President or Vice-President can be indicted. I've tried to do some research on this and not only am I confused, apparently Jaworski was confused as well. I seem to recall in the documentary Watergate, the grand jury wanted to indict Richard Nixon for obstruction of justice, but Jaworski convinced them to list Nixon as an unindicted co-conspirator, though this information was kept secret from the public. I've tried to find an article verifying this, and I found this:

The Office of the Special Prosecutor was created by Executive Order in May 1973 and twice faced the question of whether to seek an indictment of Richard Nixon. The first time was in March 1974, when the grand jury handed down indictments of seven White House aides for perjury and obstruction of justice.

President Nixon was named an "unindicted coconspirator" at that time because Watergate Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski advised the grand jury that in his opinion a sitting President could not be indicted. In his view, the House Judiciary Committee was the appropriate body under the Constitution for examining evidence relating to the President.


http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/News/Special-Reports/Watergate/740809_Jaworski_Memo.asp


But what about the Vice President? I seem to recall that Vice President Spiro Agnew was indicted on the charge of income tax evasion. He then resigned so that when he entered his plea of no contest, he was a private citizen instead of a sitting Vice President. I guess that's good news where the Plame case is concerned, Cheney certainly deserves a conspiracy indictment. But what in the Constitution allows a sitting VP to be indicted and not the President? Or am I getting this wrong?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. From Emery, page 382:
"Vice presidents, contended Bork, were different from presidents, against whom the only remedy was impeachment."

It was an extreme circumstance with Agnew. If he was to face impeachment -- which was an option -- he could have stretched it out for a considerable period. This would have allowed Nixon more time, because numerous democrats had made clear they would not make a move on Nixon until Agnew was gone. Hence, the highly unusual approach of indictments was used to convince Agnew that he needed to get out of Washington.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. The Nixon WH never really went away. It's been recycled
two or three times. They learned lessons alright and they are still gaming in the same way.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. True.
And they are more dangerous each time they return.
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spuddonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. My two cents...
Just from what you've written, I'd say it sounds like too much of a coincidence... People who work in covert ops are trained to be meticulous in their handling of equipment. It sounds like McCord was purposely creating 'loose ends'...

And I'll make a wild speculative guess that the CIA has always had as one of its 'special assignments' the preservation of our government from internal/foreign coups. So I wouldn't be surprised if they helped in the destruction of the Nixon admin. I think that's precisely why Goss is where he is: Goss is in charge of dismantling the last group that can prevent the neocons from taking total control of the govt. Is that too harsh? Should I put my tin foil hat on? :)

H2O Man, can you recommend any sites/books to read more on this? :) Thanks again!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Any of the ones
I mentioned in the OP are good, especially Emery's book. And I always suggest the "classics" -- Woodward & Bernstein. There are a few books of tapes that are worth reading; the Washington Post's may be the single best. Also, as noted earlier, Woodward's "The Secret Man" is worth reading, but with a grain of salt .... when he speaks about Felt using his cover story so many years that he is invested in it, I suspect he is describing himself, too.

There are a dozen interesting books by those involved in the case. It can be strange trying to keep track of who is telling the truth when there are obvious conflicting descriptions. A good rule of thumb is Nixon lies the most, and Liddy the least. Guys like Haldeman fall somewhere in between .... and that includes Dean going back to that era. (He's a great guy now, but was a weasal then. People change.) McCord's book is interesting, but less honest than most other than Nixon.
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spuddonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Thanks! Some late summer reading assignments! :) n/t
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mirrera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. I just did a watch JFK and read All the President's Men combo...
I have stopped comparing this admin to the Nazi Party even though I think it fits, because it freaks people out too much and then they don't listen. You can however clearly compare to the Nixon administration. The JFK special edition is good for reminding us that there is a clear divide in this country between citizens that believe the assassination stories and citizens that know there is more to it.


http://NoBullshiRt.com
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Yep.
It's kind of funny how if Felt, an assistant director at the FBI compared the Nixon administration to the nazi's, it's an insight; but let a democrat compare Cheney/Bush to nazi's, and it's a sin.
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Holly_Hobby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
39. Bumping to the top
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
49. Giving this a kick!
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
56. Worth Reading and Kicked .....n/m
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
61. thanks for the history lesson
as somebody that was in elementary school at the time, it's always good to learn about recent history.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
62. kik
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
63. kick
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redacted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
66. KICK In honor of Cindy
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