DAVID COBB told me to go ahead and post this...

[demodonkey]

He wasn't the original person I spoke to, but David confirms what was in my post starting THIS thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=388217&mesg_id=388217

He said to tell you, (quote) "Kerry didn't just concede, he capitulated!"

And he added if Kerry/Edwards withdraws from this suit it is just ANOTHER broken promise to count every vote and stand up for every voter.

(Me again talking...) The threat of them withdrawing is VERY real. They will probably do it as of August 30 if we don't take action and convince them not to do this. It appears that Kerry is already starting to "distance" himself from us wild-eyed glazed-looking conspiracy theorists, in preparation for his 2008 run.

Grrrrrr!

DAVID COBB stood up for us in Ohio and he will continue to do so.... PLEASE STAND UP FOR DAVID... Contact Kerry/Edwards and the Dems and tell them to DO THE RIGHT THING and see Cobb v. Blackwell through to the end!

Please blast this and keep this kicked -- get this on as many blogs and outlets as you can!

Marybeth (in Atlanta)

[steve2470]

1. kick nt

[meganmonkey]

2. Thanks Marybeth!!

You kick serious ass! Thanks for all your hard work!!!!

:loveya:

[wtbymark]

3. Kerry doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell in 08'

either does Hillary - i wish these people would shut-up already

[electropop]

38. I campaigned for Kerry...

Boy do I feel like a sucker now. He promised to make sure every vote counted. Hew was wishy washy or centrist on everything else, but I figured, "hey, at least he cares about my vote."

:grr:

Boxer/Conyers in '08!

:loveya: :headbang:

[blm]

4. You mean Kerry is distancing himself from Teresa? I didn't know that.

And I would bet that Cam Kerry is running for Sec of State in Mass. so he can be better able to examine the elctronic voting machines and those who own and operate them.

[elperromagico]

5. He can examine the voting machines in a state

where Kerry got nearly 62% of the vote?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

[blm]

6. You missed the point. Kerry obviously wants access to the machines

and to more info on the owners, operators, the process and the programming. You have noticed that Dean is urging people to run for Sec of State, haven't you? I believe they want as much access to all the different machines as they can get BEFORE 2008.

If they are going to make a case against the use of electronic machines then they should know every detail. They are NOT going to get the access they need from the corrupt Ohio GOP thug court system.

Plus...I highly doubt Teresa has been making her attacks on the machines and the GOP loyalists who control them completely on her own.

[FreedomAngel82]

16. Exactly

And I doubt Teresa would be saying anything at all unless something was going on. But then again it could be just anger. I didn't know Dean was encouraging people for the SOS job. Good idea.

[blm]

21. And I doubt it's just a coincidence that Dean and Kerry are pursuing this

route.

I was mad about the DNC report, but, since then, after hearing about the Sec of State campaign quests, I came to the conclusion that they are going for the best scenario for machine access WITH legal backup.

Better than depending on GOP thug judges in Ohio where they almost certainly have corrupted whatever evidence was needed within minutes of the election,

[second edition]

7. I'm sorry, but I feel we all have to move on.

This law suit isn't going to go anywhere. Cobb should let it go and stop using Kerry as an excuse to continue beating a dead horse. I don't blame Kerry if he withdraws from this, the Ohio government is controlled by Republicans and too much time has elapsed with evidence probably being destroyed. Proving anything now would be impossible IMO.

[demodonkey]

8. I'm sorry but if we don't get a precedent set on this one they will...

...do it again. And again. EVERY time.

I worked on the Ohio Recount. I saw what happened first hand. That recount was not conducted according to Ohio law. You think we should allow Blackwell to break the law and just "move on"?? To what??? Work harder in 2008?

If we don't draw the line somewhere, and fight for what is right, we will NEVER win again... it'll always be 51-48.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. Nail on the head!

[blm]

11. And what if Kerry and Dean are working on another route that may prove

to be more fruitful?

Do you think it's just coincidence that Dean is pursuing Dems to run for Sec of State all over the country and that Cam Kerry is one of those Dems?

They likely KNOW that the evidence needed in Ohio was destroyed immediately.

They can use the Sec of State positions to examine and test all the machines in PUBLIC ways that also expose those who control the programming of those machines.

[Eloriel]

19. Don't bring Dean into this, dammit

That doesn't give Kerry any cover in this, and it's simply "using" Dean.

Yeah, Dean is calling for Dems to take over some of those jobs AND for Dems to file for citizen initiatives re voting rights and paper ballots, etc., but that's NOT because of Kerry or WITH Kerry or anything else Kerry. That's Dean, and he's limited to what he can do in HIS position as DNC Chair.

Further, and most important, THIS IS NOT AN EITHER/OR PROPOSITION. This suit needs to go forward whether or not anything else is done. Period, end of discussion.

So get on the phone NOW to all your contacts and make Kerry do the right damn thing -- for a change.

[blm]

26. CAM Kerry is running for Sec of State in Mass., Eloriel. YOU wanna pretend

it's just coincidence, go ahead.

You want to believe they have no intention of examining the machines and their owners with greater leverage from that position, then go ahead. I don't care.

You want to think that Teresa's rant anout the ownership of the machines was just a fluke and a waste of breath, go ahead.

I don't believe in coincidence as you do.

Too bad for you. Hate blinds.

[LittleClarkie]

41. Well, gee, I guess Kerry not involved at all...

Now who was that candidate whose election was supposedly stolen... let me think... it'll come to me.

And I don't think they provide each other cover. They talk. About what, obviously, I dunno. They forgot to tap me into the conference call. Sorry.

Kerry is working on campaign action groups on his website, mentioning specifically how we need to get rid of partisan machines and the like. Sounds like Dean is also working on election issues.

Kerry is working on grassroots organization. Dean is working on grassroots organization. Even if they're not doing it jointly, I see their efforts as complimentary.

Considering they spoke quite a bit during the time Dean was running for DNC chair, I don't think it's entirely an accident though.

The primaries are over. I support both Kerry and Dean. And if appropriate, those who support both will "bring Dean into this" whenever we damn well please, dammit.

If you want to go off half cocked because of what you THINK Kerry is doing, without all the facts, knock yourself out. I can't make him do the right thing, when I don't know what the fuck the plan is. And neither do you. These are only guesses at this point. Your perception appears to be colored by animosity. Mine is not.

I can ask what's going on. But I'm not going to beat my tits and say he's abandoned me. I find that assertion amusing, actually, and many people here have asserted that he already abandoned them, and that nothing was going on. How do you stop nothing? If everyone thought he was doing nothing, how can they be disappointed.

Wouldn't they have to admit that he was doing SOMETHING in the first place, something so invisible it doesn't make sense that he would have been doing it for show, as others have claimed?

Fuck it. I've joined the Campaign Action Team. Have you?

You got something comparable on the Dean DNC side that I can join. I'll go right now.

GET. OVER. THE. PRIMARIES!!

[Talismom]

15. I totally agree with you! Kerry promised that every vote would

be counted and even if he doesn't have the cajones to see this through, I want the truth to come out and this disgusting situation repaired! I never again want to put my heart and efforts and money and time put toward a cause that is going to be hijack like I'm certain election 2004 was!

[Twist_U_Up]

17. move on lol

we are just getting started

http://www.electionfraud2004.org/presentation/index.html

[blue agave]

9. thanks demodonkey - kick !

[merh]

12. MaryBeth - the Kerry/Edwards campaign is still involved in

active - pending - litigation in the Ohio Federal Court - this statement is not exactly true given that they still have litigation pending.

There is a federal lawsuit still alive and on the dockect in the US District Court, Northern District of Ohio.

[demodonkey]

13. That is true... until the end of this month. They have indicated to...

David Cobb that they are withdrawing their support of Cobb V. Blackwell as of August 30. That is the suit now in Federal Court in Toledo OH.

This directly from David Cobb himself and another source close to the case.

The goal is to get Kerry and Edwards to stick the case out until the end -- rather than letting Kerry cave in again and withdraw at the end of this month.

MB

[merh]

14. Then to post that Kerry/Edwards capitulated is not correct.

If they withdraw at the end of the month, then the argument that they capitulated may be legitimate. Of course, as other posters have noted, neither you, nor the source close to Cobb nor Cobb know what they are doing relative to the election issues, so to make the broad statement that they have capitulated just doesn't seem accurate or fair.

[demodonkey]

42. Those are David's words about Kerry conceding the Election so fast, not...

about withdrawing from the suit.

Kerry barely waited 12 hours before his Concession Speech in Boston, even though there was at the time, AND STILL IS, a mountain of evidence showing strange results in OH, NM, FL, NV, and many other states. But Kerry pulled the plug and offered King George his concession (or capitulation) even before the FIRST count of votes was fully completed.

Kerry supposedly had assembled a team of 50,000 lawyers on the ground and had millions in cash to investigate any strange results... well those results were there. Those results needed to be investigated then... and in most cases still do. It takes money, which Kerry had plenty of, but the millions sat in his "war chest" while the rest of us had to go out and raise funds and try to find out what really happened on 11-2-04.

Those of us who were actually on the ground in OH felt totally abandoned. Kerry NEVER SHOWED UP with any of those lawyers. In fact he didn't even send an OBSERVER to watch the recount in most counties (Bush had plenty!) I myself saw ONE young college kid, observing for Kerry in ONE county.

Andy told me several times with his own mouth how a Kerry lawyer contacted them in when they were in FL and told Andy point blank to BACK OFF -- because their ongoing investigation was making Kerry and his lawyers look stupid!

Andy was really disgusted by Kerry and by the claims on DU and elsewhere at the time that Kerry had something going on himself (claims which some apparently STILL believe is happening?)

This idea that Kerry was, or is, somehow "doing something" on his own about election fraud / reform issues is just not happening, folks! Andy spent a lonely, miserable Holiday Season last year (which turned out to be his last) in Nov-Dec chasing data on the ground in FL, OH, and other states. I myself was on the ground in OH along with thousands of others. None of us EVER saw anyone from Kerry's people in any of those offices collecting data alongside us. The Kerry people just weren't there, and there can be no action taken by Kerry or anybody else without that data! Sorry.

Kerry wasn't even in the Senate (or the country) on January 6 when Barbara Boxer alone had the guts to stand up there.

The fact remains that pretty much the only thing Kerry/Edwards ever did regarding these election problems (and to support those of us who have been fighting them) was to file papers in support of the plaintiffs in Cobb v. Blackwell.

If they pull the plug on that last little bit of support now SHAME ON KERRY/EDWARDS and shame on the mainstream Dems! If Kerry and the Dems think that pulling away from the "conspiracy theorists" on the issue of election fraud and our country's need for election reform is somehow going to help his chances in 2008, well John, you better think again.

Marybeth

[LittleClarkie]

48. Le sigh.

1. "Kerry barely waited 12 hours"
Most candidates don't even wait that long. Gore didn't even wait that long, conceding, then unconceding. Most candidates concede that night.

2. A mountain of evidence they couldn't see in the span of a few hours. They were told by their people in Ohio it was hopeless. I was told once by a reporter from Raw Story that the grapevine story was that he'd been set up. Not that he'd taken a dive. That he'd been SET UP, by people who were supposed to be on his side, but weren't.

3. And when the first round of vote counting was finished, Bush was still winner.

4. Lawyers and millions. Lawyers supposedly all over the country, not just in Ohio, watching the vote. Were their expenses part of the GELAC fund expendatures? All I know is that the FEC site shows that by the end of 2004 he had as much as Gore did at the end of 2000, including the GELAC.

5. "Andy told me several times with his own mouth how a Kerry lawyer contacted them in when they were in FL and told Andy point blank to BACK OFF -- because their ongoing investigation was making Kerry and his lawyers look stupid!"

"Andy told me several times with his own mouth" ... as opposed to someone else's mouth? And are we SURE it was a Kerry lawyer? This was when Andy was working with Bev, no? Maybe she was going about it the wrong way, bulldozing over others. I dunno. I'd have to hear the other side. I'm funny that way. Must be the journalist in me.

6. The fact that an opinion was stated by our dear departed Andy nevertheless doesn't elevate it to gospel. One more opinion, more informed than most, but with something of an anti-Kerry campaign bias that worried me at the time. Once again, I wanted both sides and wasn't getting it. I'm not filling the vacuum with vitrol toward Kerry. Wouldn't be fair.

7. I was never one of those who was reading tons into Kerry's words. He wasn't speaking in code. He wasn't Lassie trying to get our vote out of the well. He said what he said, and did enough for me to prove he meant it. I wasn't looking for behind the scenes.

8. January 6th. How many times does it have to be said that the Black Congressional Caucus ASKED HIM NOT TO BE THERE! They wanted the focus on the vote irregularities, not him. He would have been in the way.

9. "The only thing..." Plus an MLK speech he got blasted for. Plus co-sponsoring election reform legislation. Plus having Campaign Action Teams forming on his website, with verbage specifically talking about ricketty machines programmed by partisans. Some folks would acknowledge that he'd done anything if his efforts came up and bit them on the butt and said "we're here." I couldn't even convince folks he was doing the Cobb thing half the time. Oh no, he's not doing a thing. Uh huh.

10. You can't go to court on what we think happened. I will be saddened if Kerry backs out of this case, but I still don't have his side of things. And I'm not taking the speculations of y'all as truth.

[Eloriel]

18. I posted it here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1997704

:grr:

[jillan]

20. I don't understand why Cobb is saying that about Kerry now.

That is bs!!!

I'm sure if Kerry thought he had a chance to fight this, he would have.
But you can't PROVE tampering with machines, when there in no paper trail. The popular vote was not that close, like it was in 2000. What was Kerry suppose to fight? It's like a murder where they hid everything - the body, the weapon, the fingerprints, the alibi.

Kerry did not campaign like he did to lose this election.

If Kerry continues to whine about the election, how the hell is he suppose to get anything done in the senate???? He will have lost all credibility, and would be labelled a sore loser, cry-baby. He has moved on, so he can continue his fight against this administration. And incase you haven't been paying attention to him, because you are too wrapped up in this, Kerry has continued to fight for everything he said he would in his campaign. Including new voting legislation. He is doing an awesome job in the senate, and
I for one am MORE impressed with Kerry now than I was before the election.

Yes there was fraud in this election. And discarded votes. And who knows what else?

But to me, the mistake was that no one took care of this BEFORE the election. I don't know whose fault that was. The DNC?? Kerry's advisors?? I don't know. But one day the truth will come out. And one day Rove aka the architect will be in jail.

[yojon]

22. Mark Crispin Miller said that JK 'sank below contempt'

when he caved the day after an obviously fraudulant election.

He would have to do a whole lot to make me take him seriously at this point.

[blm]

28. Yeah, it's easy to have contempt for the man who investigated and exposed

more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history.

I think Kerry did his job well in besting Bush while the DNC and the leftwing journalists got their lunches handed to them by the RNC and the rightwing media.

[Noisy Democrat]

33. If it's so obviously fraudulent

why hasn't it been proven *yet*?

Meanwhile, just yesterday I saw a right-wing columnist refer to Kerry's "belated concession" -- as if his merely waiting until morning was ridiculous.

[eridani]

34. Because the Rethugs won't let anybody see the goddam evidence!

That's why.

[anarchy1999]

23. Thank you ever so much David Cobb. Ask him to call Sherry and David.

n/t

We stand behind him 100%.

[Alizaryn]

24. This post by Demodonkey had some good addresses to use

for letters.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=388217&mesg_id=388217

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

27. What about his own suit?

I thought Pitt told us about, way back when, Kerry's own suit pending in Ohio. I don't care if he pulls out of this one if he's still involved.

[mom cat]

29. Thanks for this post. I am e-mailing Kerry and telling him that if he

pulls out, he can kiss 2008 goodby!

[mom cat]

30. I just sent John Kerry the following e-mail

Dear Senator John Kerry,
I am writing you to urge you to stay in the fight for the Ohio vote and continue to be a party to Cobb V. Blackwell. We MUST preserve the voting information/evidence and we MUST insure that what happened in 2004 never happens again. I supported you wholeheartedly in the past, but was very disturbed when you did not keep your promice to see that all of the votes were counted. The decision to stay in this fight is a decision to fight for representative democracy. It is not about you. It is not even about the Democratic Party. It is about deomcracy itself and we need you to fight for the truth!

Sincerely,

[LittleClarkie]

31. Someone who's been asking around posted this in the Kerry group

and I thought it made sense.

"I asked someone close to the old campaign about Cobb


and clarification about what was going on.

Basically, the Kerry/Edwards campaign is no longer in existance period. All the bills have been paid and all the money has been dispersed. They can be involved as individuals but not as citizens. Therefore, if this were to go to court, they would have to provide evidence of the fraud AND they would have to provide evidence of harm. Those are two extremely HIGH hurdles and they can not be met at this time!

We KNOW there was fraud, but we have NOTHING other than stats and probability. And without that, they can't go to court.

Furthermore, they are trying to help us through their current jobs--Senator and Poverty commission (public speaker)--so this in itself eliminates the argument for "harm" because they are both still successful. Secondly, the actions they've taken STILL try to protect us. They have not rolled over and played dead.

BUT until a whistle-blower comes forward with proof, there is nothing to add to any lawsuit in Ohio.

One thing all of us Kerry supporters do know is from our knowledge on the BCCI and that is Kerry is not a quitter. So we can assume he played dead as the GD would like to keep doing, OR we can take our knowlege of Kerry as a prosecutor, kerry as the investigator of the Iran-Contra affair, and Kerry as the investigator into the terror (money laundering) of BCCI and presume that this man has simply gone undercover to get the information he needs.

Hope I make some sense."

But maybe that's just me.

[eridani]

35. It's not OK to quit, even if you would have lost anyway.

Which we don't know one way or another. The outcome doesn't matter, but punishing fraud does. Otherwise it will just happen again.

[phiddle]

37. This is specious reasoning

1st: Just because Kerry and Edwards are currently successful at other occupations does not mean that they didn't suffer harm as CANDIDATES, a distinct role.
2nd: Providing evidence of fraud is not necessary, but only to show that laws were violated in ways harmful to their candidacy.

If K/E wish to dissociate as plaintiffs in the suit, I would be reassured if they would join in another capacity, such as filing a friend of the court brief, or similar. Lacking such a move I must question both their courage and judgement.

[LittleClarkie]

39. However, if I recall correctly, a friend of court brief

was their first step before entering as a full participant. So, I don't know that filing a friend of court brief is the answer, and how it would differ from the first one.

I'm just waiting for those who said he was doing nothing to explain how he could quit doing SOMETHING if he was doing NOTHING. There's a reason I've kept the lawyer's name memorized.

Don McTigue. Kudos to him for what he's done up to this point in being involved.

[demodonkey]

44. K/E are not now plaintiffs...

in Cobb v. Blackwell.

What they may pull is their "friend of the court" filed to help Cobb and Badnarik, and if they do that, they have sunk pretty low. No, they have sunk REALLY low.

[demodonkey]

43. PLEASE see my Post #42. eom

[LittleClarkie]

45. In reference to a point in post 42

how much do you think Kerry has? You say millions in his war chest. Specifically, how many millions?

[demodonkey]

46. Answers Vary...

I've heard 15 million and I've heard 50 million.

If either one, it is far more than all the election reform groups (who are trying to figure out what happened in 2004 and prevent it from happening again in future elections) have all put together.

Marybeth

[LittleClarkie]

47. And about the same as Gore had by the end of 2000.

It was 15 million at the end of 2004, according to the FEC. Their number included the GELAC fund.

Some of it has been spent on stuff since then. Not completely sure if the DCCC donation and the DNC donation when Dean became chairman were out of the campaign money or PAC money. I believe it was part of the 15 million.

I imagine McTigue had a lawyer fee.

About half of what you said in post 42 is a mixture of emotionalism, and stuff I've refuted enough times that I'm gagging on the idea of doing it again. But here I go. Replying to post 42 now...

[demodonkey]

49. From Kerry's Own Website...

QUOTE: "...As a result of negligence and incompetence, flawed voting machinery and deliberate voter suppression, more than a quarter of Ohio voters had difficulty at the polls. And nearly a quarter of Ohio voters report that their experience in 2004 has made them less confident about the reliability of elections in Ohio..."

http://www.johnkerry.com/features/votingrights/
www.johnkerry.com (which is still up and STILL collecting contributions, BTW!)

Sorry for the "emotionalism", but if John Kerry really cares about Ohio voters and if he really wants to be so darn sure every vote is counted, then he can darn well just see Cobb v. Blackwell through to the end!

:grr:

[LittleClarkie]

50. "which is still up and STILL collecting contributions, BTW!"

No shit, Dick Tracy. It's been his Senate website since 2002. Ever know a politician that WASN'T fund-raising for this and that?

What kind of comment was THAT?!

Anyway, also from his site,
http://www.johnkerry.com/features/count/actionteam.php

"We must put party politics aside and join together as proud American citizens to eliminate barriers to voting, encourage the greatest level of civic participation possible, and restore confidence in the notion that every eligible voter will have the opportunity to cast a ballot and have it counted. No American citizen should wake up the morning after the election and worry their vote wasn't counted. No citizen should be denied at the polls if they are eligible to vote. And, as the greatest, wealthiest nation on earth, our citizens should never be forced to vote on old, unaccountable and non transparent voting machines from companies controlled by partisan activists. AMEN

There are over 3,000,000 members of the johnkerry.com online community. We accomplished so much together during the campaign. Now let's use our power to make sure that at least one good thing comes from the voting rights problems of the 2004 election."

He appears to be using other means. Perhaps he thinks the court case is hopeless at this point. Dunno. Still not heard his side.

[elshiva]

32. Flaimy Flaim Flaim

[BamaBecky]

36. kick Kerry!

[Al-CIAda]

40. .