"Native American Mascots Should Be Banned"

[Placebo]

Do you agree or disagree?

Is it political correctness run amok?

Or the right move at the right time that's been long overdue?

[thoughtanarchist]

1. third and 4th options missing...

3) I like pancakes!

4) What kind of whacked red-herring issue is this anyway?

[Wetzelbill]

3. as an Indian I object to your use of the word "red herring"

would you say "white" herring?

I don't think so!

:) I'm too lazy to use the sarcasm emoticon.

[thoughtanarchist]

5. Not to worry...

I was referring to a communist herring.

:evilgrin:

[Wetzelbill]

12. I digress....

[thoughtanarchist]

22. right -- back to the original topic of earth-shattering importance

:sarcasm:

[DBoon]

2. Allowed only for schools in Native American communities

Where they reflect the make up of the team and the fans.

otherwise, there are enough mean ugly mythical European names to go around.

[Wetzelbill]

I'm not even sure if that is acceptable....

because opponents tend to make fun of and deride Indian stereotypes in their rallies and so forth. It's a complex issue, for sure. For instance, say a reservation team is called the "Indians." Well, opponents from other towns will mock the Indian mascot, say a team called the "Cowboys" will show a cowboy shooting and Indian etc.

[DBoon]

61. I could see, for example, the "Mescalero Apaches" as a HS football team

If the students and parents in that community are OK with it.

It's up to them what to do about derision from opponents.

[Wetzelbill]

67. not really no

it isn't. Not when that team name is a sect of a race of people and symbolic of the race as a whole. One small group doesn't trump the overall law, which was made with the input of a variety of tribes and Indian activist organizations around the country. Derision from opponents is a racist action. I'm a Blackfeet but when somebody makes fun of an Apache, well, that offends and pisses me off. I don't like it and it's not right.

[Ariana Celeste]

4. I disagree

It should be up to the tribes, and who is asking them? Nobody.

[Booster]

I agree. This is the first time that I don't believe the majority should

rule. To settle this, they should have a country-wide vote JUST BY EVERY TRIBE in the nation and let THEM decide how they want this to be handled. I really don't think white people (and I am one) should have a say in this.

[Wetzelbill]

16. hold a vote among all enrolled Indians

see how it turns out.

[slackmaster]

42. What about extinct tribes?

The Anasazi?

The Aztecs?

The Fugawe?

:hide:

[Hobo]

50. San Deigo State are the Aztecs

Love the Fugawe reference.


Hobo

:beer:

[Desertrose]

36. Not true..there's a strong desire among Indians to remove the mascot names

why should it be up to the tribes? I'm sorry but that is BS.

We have enough shit going on in this world without keeping stupid names/words/things that separate us even further.

I have some Indian friends within colleges & teh educational system who have been working on just this thing for years. Nobody really cares. what a surprise.

[slackmaster]

45. Can you show something to substantiate your statement?

Survey results, or something?

[Desertrose]

59. I have a friend at U of K in Lawrence...

He is originally from the SD Pueblo in NM and has been working for many years to raise awareness and get Indian mascot names removed. He has two young sons and is very concerned for them. I don't have any of his emails (that what I get for cleaing out my email) but maybe I can find some links. He is very active in many organizations for this particular cause...as well as others.


I also have friends among the Navajo- Diné who are also very concerned and speaking out strongly about the use of Indian names as mascots for sport teams.

[Squatch]

6. Another case of white people telling Indians what's good for them

[DistressedAmerican]

14. No Another Case OF White Folks Refusing To Respect The Wishes Of Minority

groups.

Very nice.

GROSS...

[Squatch]

17. Even when that group CONDONES and SUPPORTS

the use of their image?

Link

You might want to learn yourself on this topic BEFORE spouting off on it.

[DistressedAmerican]

25. I Was A Fighting Illini! That Group OBJECTED REGULARLY

You have a single isolated case there. The rest of the world is out there too.

I am well versed with this issue and you can count on that when I "spout off". How about you look outside your isolated exaplme. Bring me ten...

I can name ten mascots that are rejected by Native Americans For every one you offer up.

This practice is racist to the fucking core.

[slackmaster]

46. Maybe the whole state of Illinois should be renamed

And what about Indiana?

The Dakotas?

[madeline_con]

90. Thank you...

I saw JEB say it was a lot of whites saying to Seminoles, "You're not smart enough to understand."

[H2O Man]

19. Not at all.

Read "Indian-named mascots: an assault on self-esteem" by Tim Giago, either in "Indian Country Today," (10-26-95) or in "Native American Voices" by Susan Lobo & Steve Talbot, 2001. This is an important issue that numerous Native leaders have asked non-Indian people for support on.

[Squatch]

23. Quote:

"Here is how (Seminole) Tribe Council member Max Osceola Jr. reacted to the decision to include FSU on a list of 18 schools that are banned from using their mascot names in any NCAA post-season event: "Here's another example of non-Indians telling Indians what's good for them. No one from the NCAA came to our tribe to ask us directly.""

[H2O Man]

24. Read the article.

There is no excuse for ignorance when knowledge is available.

[sui generis]

20. agreed

everyone wants a blanket rule to cover everyone rather than take the time to set criteria and tests for appropriateness.

There are appropriate and inappropriate depictions and uses of every culture. A blanket rule does nothing but take away the responsibility for being responsible.

And besides, ask the people who are going to be offended by it, not the unrelated people speaking On Behalf Of All People Everywhere so they can feel better about themselves.

[LSK]

7. can I vote weak distraction attempt issue by MSM???

This issue has been around for a long time. Why is it coming up now when things are going so badly in Iraq and gas prices are going nuts?

[SteppingRazor]

11. Because the NCAA banned Native-American mascots. n/t

[SteppingRazor]

8. Case by Case...

I live in South Florida, and have talked to several Seminoles about the FSU mascot -- they all LOVE it!

But I can see where the Redskins or the Braves (particularly the cartoony image of their mascot) would be a different story.

[sui generis]

26. exactly

this absolutist thinking from progressives is really annoying and not very progressive.

[Eloriel]

30. Seminoles are in the minority

"In a survey by Indian Country Today, 81 percent of respondents indicated use of American Indian names, symbols and mascots are predominantly offensive and deeply disparaging to Native Americans.

"Indian mascots, by today’s standards, would be offensive to any other race if portrayed in a similar manner," wrote Fred Blue Fox, Sicangu Lakota. "Indian peoples are no different in regarding the depiction of eagle feathers, face paints and war objects such as tomahawks. These are all sacred to the people and therefore have no place in any sort of public display, let alone mascots."

Only 10 percent of respondents indicated use of American Indian mascots is a respectful gesture and predominantly honors Natives."

-- more -- http://web.archive.org/web/20040301122612/http://www.indiancountry.com/?43

[SteppingRazor]

38. So they're in the minority. My point still stands.

This should be done on a case by case basis. As in the case of FSU (whose mascot, in case you didn't know, is The Seminoles), it shouldn't be a problem. But in many others, it probably is.

[DistressedAmerican]

9. 30% DO NOT Think They Should Be Banned? Not Shit?

Very progressive views being expressed here, NOT!

I can't believe that DUers would support the continued racial stereotyping associated with this practice. Talk about your broad brush slurs.

I did my undergrad degree at the University of Illinois. The would dress a white guy up in back skins and have him dance some bogus made up war dance at the games. It was sickening.

How would you people that don't think they be banned feel about the "New York Niggers"?

Racism is racism!

[Placebo]

15. 41%...

with 41 votes.

[fishnfla]

18. Well if it would improve the level of education at UI, I'm all for it

:eyes:

[Placebo]

21. Hey, UofI is a good school.

:)

[fishnfla]

33. Ignorance is ignorance

even after the edit, there are at least 3 typos, down from 8 or so.Says alot about the undergrad program.....

[DistressedAmerican]

35. If That Is That Best You've Got, You Have No Argument.

Where is your argument? Tell me how you defend the practice. This thread is not about my typing skills.

When people attack the messenger and ignore the message, they usually have nothing of value to add to the discussion.

Typos are fucking typos. If you must know, I was typing with one hand with my baby in my lap. You clearly got my point. This is irrelevant bullshit. Do you have any point?

How about you address the question...

On Edit: Despite my dyslexia and one handed typing, I am all but done with a Doctorate. What you got spelling nazi?

[fishnfla]

49. Along with over half of the people on this thread (at this point)

I disagree with this stupid politically correct ruling. I think its a nonissue. I can tell you're all worked up about it, but there are really more important things to get your back up about.

I'm sorry about the spelling crack, it was such an incomprehensible post, I found it ironic that you mentioned higher education.

I have a BA (English=I'm anal about spelling and grammar), a BS, and a Doctorate myself from the University of Wisconsin.

Congrats on your degree and your baby :hi:

Edit: very anal :eyes:

[alarcojon]

94. Very anal indeed

I'm another dumbass from U of I, and I very clearly remember American Indians speaking out against this mascot on campus. Year after year. Post #30 shows that a large majority of Indians believe Indian mascots are "predominantly offensive and deeply disparaging to Native Americans." So why is it a non-issue that 81% of the group depicted finds that depiction offensive?

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. The Seminole Tribe of Florida supports FSU's use

of the name 'Seminoles.' Are these native Americans racist? Perhaps they see that the name is being used in a positive way.

[sendero]

74. Yes but a larger national group..

... of Seminoles does not. Who wins?

[sui generis]

29. exactly the opposite of what you said

you're showing an example appropriate for banning. That example is not practiced by everyone everywhere.

Absolutist thinking is what is not progressive. Blanket rules like this are what I expect from dunderhead republicans who are incapable of thinking for themselves or evaluating anything fairly or on a case by case basis.

I can't support it as a blanket rule.

[whistle]

10. Unless Native Americans themselves wish to use them

[ulysses]

13. with what am I agreeing or disagreeing?

:shrug:

[Bluebear]

27. C) "P.C." is such a loaded right wing term, Wolf Blitzer!

[Placebo]

62. He loves to say it.

That and "YOU'RE IN 'THE SITUATION ROOM'!!!"

[ibegurpard]

31. Don't care

Don't care if they stay...don't care if they go.

[Xithras]

32. Across the board? Of course not.

FYI, most of the native american's I've spoken to, including the one I'm MARRIED to, could give two shits about the issue. In the words of my father-in-law: "It's a stupid 'make the white people feel good about themselves while they live on stolen land' argument". Aside from a relatively small group of activists, the practice doesn't bother most of them.

IMO, tribes should be able to trademark their names. If a school wants to use a tribal name, they should have to get permission from the tribe...and pay royalties...before using it, just like any other protected label. Why nobody brings this possibility up is beyond me.

[Placebo]

34. 51% AGREE to 49% DISAGREE with 67 votes!

It's practically a presidential election folks!

[ulysses]

37. your vote choice isn't clear.

In that respect, yes, it's much like 2000 in Florida.

[fishnfla]

41. .

1.I'd hardly think its as important as that (presidential election). I'd vote for the nonissue/red herring/ baseless distraction option.

2. What do the Indians think? Let them decide. I mean, can we all get along?

3 Nationwide, I'd guess 85% of the people who have an opinion are against this ruling. But then again, let the tribes vote and decide.

[slackmaster]

44. Very much so

Considering it's not at all clear what "Agree" or "Disagree" mean.

:crazy:

[Placebo]

51. you must choose the lesser of the 2 evils...

don't just expect the other to be "more of the same"

:crazy:

[slackmaster]

54. No, I mean your poll is worded ambiguously

If "Agree" and "Disagree" are meant to refer to the subject line then it's OK, but you made it murky with the text that precedes the poll questions, i.e.:

Is it political correctness run amok?

Or the right move at the right time that's been long overdue?

[One_Life_To_Give]

39. Ask the Native Americans which are acceptable.

Maybe they have some suggestions as to what might be acceptable or not. But as a White Man I can only comment that I am not bothered by;
The Fighting Whites
The Fighting Irish
The Celtics
The Highlanders
The Hell Ladies (German reference to Highland Regiments)
But I will probably still chuckle at
Pink Arsed Honky

[Wetzelbill]

66. you also haven't been subject to genocide, assimilation,

been treated like cattle for centuries or were raised on an impoverished reservation where dehumanizing actions have taken quite a toll, either.

[Spider Jerusalem]

77. Say that to someone of Irish Catholic ancestry.

Bar genocide, the rest of it applies (and there's something of an argument that the inactions of the British Parliament to alleviate the suffering caused by the great famine of the 1840's amount to de facto genocide). Of course, the situation of the Irish is somewhat different now, but then so is that of Native Americans, to a large extent. I understand the point about the scars of history, but saying that none of it applies to whites is just a little ignorant.

[not systems]

81. Really when were the Irish pushed on to reservations in America?

That is right they weren't.

What about Jewish mascots?

How would you feel about the "NYC Money Lenders" or some other
stereotypical mascot?

Would you find it offensive and feel that the scars of history
would justify banning such an offensive mascot?

[Spider Jerusalem]

84. Not in America, but in Ireland...

and my point wasn't an argument against getting rid of offensive symbols, if you'll read it carefully. Apparently neither comprehension nor history are among your strong points.

[not systems]

87. So you were just being historical pedantic...

fine.

I assumed you were trying to make a relevant point about indian mascots
in America.

My bad.

[Spider Jerusalem]

89. If you read the post I was replying to, you'll see the point I was making.

Unless you're blinded by your own self-righteousness, that is.

[not systems]

95. I saw the post...

I don't think the the Fighting Irish thing is a very good argument
for the continuation of Indian mascots.

I believe that the majority of people who choose that name
at Notre Dame were Irish so were not exploiting anyone else.

I don't thing that the Celtics is very offensive to anyone
at least I have never heard any one use it in a derogatory way.

I can't say the same about Brave or Chief both I have heard used
as racist insults by real live racists.

So I see the point you were making but I don't think it is relevant
to the question and jumping in support of point that was wrong
leaves you wrong in my opinion.

[Spider Jerusalem]

97. Except that wasn't the point I was making.

You seem to assume that I was saying something I wasn't. There's that tricky reading comprehension thing again. You seem to be looking for subtext where there is none (I'm autistic, and don't do subtext. WHen I write, what is said is what is meant. No more, no less); the point was in reference to the fact that yes, actually, white people (or some, at any rate) have been opressed in a very similar manner--and for what it's worth, as someone of Irish descent, I'm not particularly happy about the Notre Dame mascot, either; a drunken, red-nosed, pugnacious leprechaun is as much a negative stereotype as a caricatured Native American, in my opinion.

Thanks so much for making unfounded assumptions, though.

[Wetzelbill]

92. that isn't even relevant

Have you been to an Indian reservation? I'm from one. It doesn't apply to whites in this manner. Ignorant? Please, I'm hardly that.

[slackmaster]

40. Agree or disagree with which statement?

The poll is ambiguous, so I'll answer this way:

Political correctness run amok?

I agree.

Or the right move at the right time that's been long overdue?

I disagree.

[Swede]

43. Teams named Canuck or Viking don't bother me.

But I think Redskin should be changed,Seminoles or Utes should be left up to the individual tribes.

[dawg]

47. I don't see this as racist at all ...

Some of the "cartoon-Indian" mascot suits and logos may be racist but simply naming the team after a Native American tribe is, IMHO, not racist.

To me, its racist for the Seminoles to be "incorrect" but the Trojans, Spartans, and Fighting Irish to be A-OK.

[Placebo]

52. There's just no solution that makes everyone happy.

[slackmaster]

55. People don't have a right to be happy

They have the right to pursue happiness, but in a complex society with people holding a wide range of values about many different things it's simply not possible to make everyone happy.

[Placebo]

56. You raise a damn good point.

:thumbsup:

[JackRiddler]

48. People who want to solve educational problems with bans should be banned

[Bluebear]

53. Which of the 4 questions are we voting on?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. Why do white males have the gall to think they are the arbiters of what

other races should find offensive?

[Bluebear]

58. Answer: Oh, you're so "PC"!

And that is supposed to end the discussion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. I posted a poll in GD yesterday and it got moved to the lounge

but I'm supposed to believe the rules are applied equally and objectively:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4299676&mesg_id=4299676

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. I say replace Native American Mascots with White American Mascots

[MN ChimpH8R]

65. "Raiders" makes me think of pirates

not Indians. What's the problem with Red Raiders? :shrug:

[barb162]

63. No Native Americans should have to keep saying they don't want

these mascots for the last 20 years. They should have been banned years ago.

[Wetzelbill]

68. this is a pretty shameful result for a liberal message board

I'm pissed off beyond words.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. There is a conservative board bragging about freeping this vote as we

speak...but we do have a few knuckledraggers here.

[Wetzelbill]

70. well that I can handle then

plus, I suppose the question good be taken in a different way, since there are three questions.

I was incensed there for a while.

[Catholic Sensation]

71. If the Indian Tribe whose name is being used finds it acceptable

then the nickname and mascot are fine to use. The case of the Florida State Seminoles is a good example. The Seminole Nation has allowed Florida State University to use their name and a mascot appearing to be a Seminole chief. The only people I've heard get offended by FSU's nickname are people who this doesn't in any way affect.

[Wetzelbill]

73. it affects all Indians

if a stereotype is used. It is still a symbol of a larger race of people.

[Catholic Sensation]

75. it's approved by that specific group

you don't speak for all indians, and it's just as arrogant for you to decide that something is offensive to all indian nations as it is for someone to say none of these mascots are offensive.

[Wetzelbill]

78. well, since I am one and I'm offended by stereotypes

and I know others who are, I'd have to disagree with you on that. I don't speak for all Indians, but I speak for most. Indian Country did a poll and over 80 percent believe the same as I do. It's not arrogant to be offended. It's just a fact of life. I'd like to see how much money the Seminole tribe makes off of selling merchandise and so on, too. In the end though, the bottom line is that stereotypes are dehumanizing, I'm not sure if it's a good idea for tribes to decide on an individual basis. I'm not sure that it isn't either. But, you're trying to tell me that because an Indian caricature is approved by a specific group that I, as another Indian, shouldn't be offended? The hell with that, it still represents my people. Last time I checked a Seminole still looked like every other Indian, so a slap at that is still a slap at Indians in general. Especially mascots. Names, maybe there is room to work with that. Mascots, there really isn't. They are all pretty dehumanizing. That's a fact. Condoning it is a pretty awful thing to do. And that doesn't matter what color you are or which political party you belong to.

[not systems]

80. I agree.

Condoning mascots is a awful thing to do.

[Catholic Sensation]

82. no i'm saying that you shouldn't act as though you know what's best

for the Seminole nation or any indian tribe who feels there is nothing wrong with their likeness and name being used by a school.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea for tribes to decide on an individual basis

Yes it is a good idea for tribes to decide on an individual basis because each tribe essentially represents a different nation. And if their leadership is fine with this, then for people NOT INVOLVED to decide that it isn't okay is arrogance.

Just like it's arrogant for white people of Polish heritage to decide that the team name Fighting Irish is offensive because they happen to be white Europeans.

[not systems]

83. The Seminoles who were moved to OK...

feel differently.

Should one group have the right to humiliate another
if they can find a few cappos or uncle toms to support
their racism?

[Catholic Sensation]

85. the team name is the FLORIDA STATE SEMINOLES

HENCE THE SEMINOLES IN FLORIDA. I'm sure the members of the tribe in Florida would be very happy to hear you label their leadership "uncle toms" as your post implied they are.

You can continue to try to make it seem like you know what's best for the rest of the world, I'm not going to continue discussing this with people who think they have all the answers and the people they're trying to help are too stupid to decide what's best for them.

[Maddy McCall]

88. Many would probably agree with the "Uncle Tom" characterization.

That you aren't aware of the rift between accomodationalists and traditionalists is blatantly obvious.

[not systems]

93. The OP wasn't about the Florida Seminoles but indian mascots...

in general.

How do you think that Redskins and Braves are going
to give their consent to be exploited?

No they can't because though teams are just racist caricatures
not real people.

I do think that the OK Seminoles who were relocated from the SE
have some say about how the people who relocated them exploit
there name.

I'm tired of arguing with people who use one counter
example in Florida to over rule the will of the vast
majority of affect peoples.

[wuushew]

72. kick

:kick:

Participation in the NCAA is voluntary. The talk of outwright banning is not truthful the same way the federal government doesn't "force" states to adopt certain drinking laws as preconditions for highway funding.

[izzybeans]

76. As all "Indians" aren't a monolithic group perhaps it should be up

to the specific decendents of each specific group to decide what is objectionable and what isn't.

As for me, I have no place to say.

[not systems]

79. DU white power rally.

:puke:

Whats wrong with America is wrong with DU.

[Dastard Stepchild]

86. People are upset about this...

The team name is just that.. a name. I argue in favor of the people feeling offense. Sports should be about enjoyment and recreation, not feelings of ill will as the result of a team name.

[NaturalHigh]

91. Okay, fine.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, my grandfather was half-Cherokee and half-Irish. As a proud descendant of the Irish, I am mad as hell at Notre Dame for making a mockery of my heritage. I'm offended! I want their team to be named something more PC, like the Yellow Sunflowers. Again, I'm offended, I'm outraged, and I want this changed!:sarcasm:

[not systems]

96. Wasn't Notre Dame founded by mostly Irish people?

I think you are full of it and mocking a legitimate
concern people have for the continuation of racist
depictions of one group of people.

[Dastard Stepchild]

98. I'm afraid I don't see an earlier post of yours...

Unless I am overlooking something. And your sarcasm is duly noted. You do not take offense to the team names. Then my comment doesn't really pertain to any of your concerns, now does it? I mean, since it bothers you not at all, your uneasy feelings about team names don't have to be placated because there is, in fact, nothing to placate. Now, if you simply loved the names and hated to see them go, you have feelings to be placated. But if you aren't bothered by the names, why fight the change?

[Technowitch]

99. Locking

This thread has ventured in a great number of inappropriate directions -- particularly for DU. We should be better than this.

-Technowitch
DU Moderator