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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:57 AM
Original message
Philip Klass, UFO Debunker and Aviation Journalist, has died
This guy was awesome.

http://www.newutah.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=61860&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

He had retired as senior avionics editor of Aviation Week & Space Technology in 1986 but continued to contribute to the magazine for a number of years. He is credited with coining the term "avionics," a blending of aviation and electronics. His work, which included one of the first books about spy satellite technology, "Secret Sentries in Space" (1971), won him honors in the field of aeronautical journalism and engineering.

SNIP

"If aliens are invading our bedrooms, impregnating our teen-age girls; if they're abducting little children, cutting flesh samples out without even putting Band-Aids on; if you're not safe anywhere on the face of the Earth -- then it is something that this nation needs to mobilize."

His first investigation, in 1966, was of a sighting two years earlier near Socorro, N.M. He found that it had been a hoax perpetrated in an attempt to bring tourism to the economically depressed town.

Klass went on to write seven books, including the well-regarded "UFOs Explained" (1975). He was interviewed on news broadcasts that included the "CBS Evening News" and for television programs devoted to space phenomena.

"In nearly 30 years of searching, investigating famous cases, I have yet to find one that cannot be explained in down-to-earth prosaic terms," Klass told interviewers for the PBS program "NOVA." "Therefore, if somebody says to me, 'I have been abducted by strange-looking creatures that do these dreadful things to me,' I'm quite confident that they could not possibly be extraterrestrials. ... I am quite confident that there is no scientific, credible evidence to show that we've had alien visitors, let alone that they're doing these dreadful things."


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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of the debunkers
he was the most famous....

RIP Phillip Klass...
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. A brilliant man.
R.I.P. Philip Klass
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. He was indeed. A bit of a curmudgeon too
With a dry wit.
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NoMoreMrNiceGuy Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good riddance...
Every UFO siting was just Venus....that was his pat answer. Nevermind doing a real SCIENTIFIC investigation into the matter just say it was Venus or swamp gas and call them crazy. He was a sleeze bucket who I debated via e-mail on many occasions. Stanton Friedman won every public debate he ever had with him.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. What a shitty thing to say about someone who just died
How rude.

Maybe you didn't agree with him, but to say "Good riddance" just reflects very poorly on you.
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NoMoreMrNiceGuy Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Ahh I'm rude...
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 12:11 PM by NoMoreMrNiceGuy
Truth is more important than manners: from mr. Cohen's site

Indeed, I would like to say a word about scientific methodology as it pertains to this problem. I have discussed this at length with the noted Canadian philosopher of science, Thomas Goudge.

"One of the most interesting facets of the UFO question to me," Goudge writes, "is its bearing on the problem of how science advances. Roughly I would say that a necessary condition of scientific advance is that allowance must be made for (a) genuinely new empirical observations and (b) new explanation schemes, including new basic concepts and new laws." Goudge notes that throughout history any successful explanation scheme, including twentieth-century physics, acts somewhat like an "establishment" and tends to resist genuinely new empirical observations, particularly when they have not been generated within the accepted framework of that scheme - as, for instance, the reluctance to accept meteorites, fossils, the circulation of the blood, and, in our time, ball lighting. History is replete with such examples. When the establishment does accept such new observations it often tends to assimilate them into the going framework - as, for instance, the attempt to admit the existence of meteorites as stones that had been struck by lightning. "Hence," Goudge concludes, "the present establishment view that UFO phenomena are either not really scientific data at all (or at any rate, not data for physics) or else are nothing but misperceptions of familiar objects, events, etc. To take this approach is surely to reject a necessary condition of scientific advance" <1>.

We will never know whether UFO reports represent genuinely new empirical observations if we continue the type of logical fallacy illustrated by the Air Force analysis of a radar-visual UFO report from Kirtland Air Force Base, Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1957. Two witnesses in the control tower reported at 11:00 p.m. that an object, which looked (through binoculars) like a lighted, up-ended automobile, came within 200 feet of the ground when it disappeared behind a fence in a highly restricted area, easily visible from the control tower, then rose abruptly at very high angular rate and disappeared. It was observed visually for about six minutes, about half of that tinle through binoculars, and tracked in part by radar. The report of the Air Force officer who investigated this case, which is in the Bluebook file, states:

The two sources are Airways Operations Specialists with a total of 23 years experience. Both were on duty in the control tower at Kirtland Air Force Base when the sighting was made - both appeared to he mature and well poised individuals, apparently of well above average intelligence, and temperamentally well qualified for the demanding requirements of control tower operators. Although completely cooperative and willing to answer any question, both sources appeared to be slightly embarrassed that they could not identify or offer an explanation of the object which they are unshakably convinced they saw. In the opinion of the interviewer, both sources are completely competent and reliable.

Project Bluebook explained this sighting as that of an aircraft; and gave the following specific reasons:

1. The observers are considered competent and reliable sources and in the opinion of the interviewer actually saw an object they could not identify.
2. The object was tracked on a radar scope by a competent operator.
3. The object does not meet identification criteria for any other phenomenon.

So, the witnesses were solid, the radar operator competent, and the object unidentifiable as any other phenomenon; therefore the object had to be an aircraft. Clearly, if such reasoning is applied to all UFO reports we can hardly expect to find out whether any genuinely new empirical observations exist to be explained. Schroedinger, the father of quantum mechanics, wrote: "The first requirement of a scientist is that he be curious; he must be capable of being astonished, and eager to find out." Perhaps he should have added, "and be ready to examine data even when presented in a bewildering and confusing form."

There is much in tile UFO problem to be astonished about - and much to be confused about, too. Such confusion is understandable. Over the past twenty years I have had so many experiences with crackpots, visionaries, and religious fanatics that I hardly need be reminded of people who espouse the idea of UFO's as visitors from outer space for their own peculiar purposes. You will note that I say "espouse the idea," not "make UFO reports." Very rarely do members of the lunatic fringe make UFO reports. There are many reasons for this; primarily it is simply that they are incapable of composing an articulate, factual, and objective report.

In addition to being fully aware of the cultists, and how they muddy the waters even though they don't generate UFO sightings, I am also well aware of the widespread ignorance, on the part of many, of astronomical objects, high-altitude balloons, special air missions, mirages, and special meteorological effects, and of people's willingness to ascribe their views of such things to the presence of something mysterious. These people, in contrast to the crackpots, are far more of a problem because they do generate UFO reports which represent a high noise level - so high, in fact, that many who have not looked carefully into the matter feel that all UFO reports stem from such misperceptions. In actual fact it is relatively simple for an experienced investigator to sort out and quickly eliminate virtually all of the misperception cases.

It is a pity that people so often are not well-informed, objective, and accurate
http://www.cohenufo.org/topicsaddr.html
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You're glad the guy is dead because he disagreed with you...
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 12:15 PM by Modem Butterfly
...and when called on it, you cop to being rude, claim that "truth" is more important than manners, and post some ramblings about UFOs.

What a piece of work.

http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/Home.html
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NoMoreMrNiceGuy Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Rambling...obviously you didn't read it or can't understand it
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. And so devolve to insults
Nothing to add, other than glee at the man's death. Such a shame.
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NoMoreMrNiceGuy Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Insults....the TRUTH hurts doesn't it MRS. manners
I'm done with you.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Just so we're clear...
...someone else's opinion doesn't really count as truth.

:eyes:

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Ah, that must have been
what they were talking about in this part of the obit:

He was reviled as a "disinformer" by believers in alien beings, particularly those who insisted they had been abducted for scientific testing.


Must have been one of the lasting side effects from the aliens storing their anal probes in the freezer.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Maybe they weren't probes
Maybe they were implants. That would explain some prior posters' behavior in this thread.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Ah, yes.
Sideways implants.
Explains a lot.:7
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Speaking of which, did you ever see the Anal Probes skit...
...on "Kids in the Hall"?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Kids in the Hall were great...
<snip>

Kevin: So what's bothering you?

Dave: Ahhhh.... Lately I just keep wondering... what's the point?

Kevin: The point?

Dave: Yeah. What's the point of what we do?

Kevin: Sorry, I don't follow you



Dave: Well, I mean, we travel 250,000 light years across the universe, abduct humans, probe the anally and release them.

Kevin: Yeah... AND?

Dave: Well, doesn't it seem kind of point-LESS?

Kevin: I really don't think about it.

Dave: Well don't you think you should?

Kevin: No, I don't think I should. I don't think I should question the leadership of our Great Leader

Dave: Oh, come on! I mean, we've been coming here for 50 years and performing anal probes and all that we have learned is that 1 in10 doesn't really seem to mind.

<snip>

http://www.kithfan.org/work/transcripts/four/analprob.html

Good times...

Sid

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Thanks!
rofl:
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. At one point, they anally probe Scott, the gay "kid"
The look he gives the audience is PRICELESS!
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Okay,
now I gotta find the clip!
I'll send it your way if I do.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. No.
Is it on the net?
I've downloaded tons of SNL clips.
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NoMoreMrNiceGuy Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. Wow...you're a REAL scientist aren't you...LOL
Edited on Sat Aug-13-05 12:53 AM by NoMoreMrNiceGuy
Typical...I'm sure you've done a real hard study into the whole UFO phenom. Exactly what is it that you are afraid of? Look at the history of how science has advanced and you'll see you are acting exactly like the flat earthers from the past.

I'm sure you won't be bothered with facts or investigation of any kind but just in case you are read this and try to respond with a little intelligence instead of weak put-downs.

This is by Jerry Cohen.
Indeed, I would like to say a word about scientific methodology as it pertains to this problem. I have discussed this at length with the noted Canadian philosopher of science, Thomas Goudge.

"One of the most interesting facets of the UFO question to me," Goudge writes, "is its bearing on the problem of how science advances. Roughly I would say that a necessary condition of scientific advance is that allowance must be made for (a) genuinely new empirical observations and (b) new explanation schemes, including new basic concepts and new laws." Goudge notes that throughout history any successful explanation scheme, including twentieth-century physics, acts somewhat like an "establishment" and tends to resist genuinely new empirical observations, particularly when they have not been generated within the accepted framework of that scheme - as, for instance, the reluctance to accept meteorites, fossils, the circulation of the blood, and, in our time, ball lighting. History is replete with such examples. When the establishment does accept such new observations it often tends to assimilate them into the going framework - as, for instance, the attempt to admit the existence of meteorites as stones that had been struck by lightning. "Hence," Goudge concludes, "the present establishment view that UFO phenomena are either not really scientific data at all (or at any rate, not data for physics) or else are nothing but misperceptions of familiar objects, events, etc. To take this approach is surely to reject a necessary condition of scientific advance" <1>.

We will never know whether UFO reports represent genuinely new empirical observations if we continue the type of logical fallacy illustrated by the Air Force analysis of a radar-visual UFO report from Kirtland Air Force Base, Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1957. Two witnesses in the control tower reported at 11:00 p.m. that an object, which looked (through binoculars) like a lighted, up-ended automobile, came within 200 feet of the ground when it disappeared behind a fence in a highly restricted area, easily visible from the control tower, then rose abruptly at very high angular rate and disappeared. It was observed visually for about six minutes, about half of that tinle through binoculars, and tracked in part by radar. The report of the Air Force officer who investigated this case, which is in the Bluebook file, states:

The two sources are Airways Operations Specialists with a total of 23 years experience. Both were on duty in the control tower at Kirtland Air Force Base when the sighting was made - both appeared to he mature and well poised individuals, apparently of well above average intelligence, and temperamentally well qualified for the demanding requirements of control tower operators. Although completely cooperative and willing to answer any question, both sources appeared to be slightly embarrassed that they could not identify or offer an explanation of the object which they are unshakably convinced they saw. In the opinion of the interviewer, both sources are completely competent and reliable.

Project Bluebook explained this sighting as that of an aircraft; and gave the following specific reasons:

1. The observers are considered competent and reliable sources and in the opinion of the interviewer actually saw an object they could not identify.
2. The object was tracked on a radar scope by a competent operator.
3. The object does not meet identification criteria for any other phenomenon.

So, the witnesses were solid, the radar operator competent, and the object unidentifiable as any other phenomenon; therefore the object had to be an aircraft. Clearly, if such reasoning is applied to all UFO reports we can hardly expect to find out whether any genuinely new empirical observations exist to be explained. Schroedinger, the father of quantum mechanics, wrote: "The first requirement of a scientist is that he be curious; he must be capable of being astonished, and eager to find out." Perhaps he should have added, "and be ready to examine data even when presented in a bewildering and confusing form."

There is much in tile UFO problem to be astonished about - and much to be confused about, too. Such confusion is understandable. Over the past twenty years I have had so many experiences with crackpots, visionaries, and religious fanatics that I hardly need be reminded of people who espouse the idea of UFO's as visitors from outer space for their own peculiar purposes. You will note that I say "espouse the idea," not "make UFO reports." Very rarely do members of the lunatic fringe make UFO reports. There are many reasons for this; primarily it is simply that they are incapable of composing an articulate, factual, and objective report.

In addition to being fully aware of the cultists, and how they muddy the waters even though they don't generate UFO sightings, I am also well aware of the widespread ignorance, on the part of many, of astronomical objects, high-altitude balloons, special air missions, mirages, and special meteorological effects, and of people's willingness to ascribe their views of such things to the presence of something mysterious. These people, in contrast to the crackpots, are far more of a problem because they do generate UFO reports which represent a high noise level - so high, in fact, that many who have not looked carefully into the matter feel that all UFO reports stem from such misperceptions. In actual fact it is relatively simple for an experienced investigator to sort out and quickly eliminate virtually all of the misperception cases.

It is a pity that people so often are not well-informed, objective, and accurate
http://www.cohenufo.org/topicsaddr.html

This is just the tip of the iceberg there are literally dozens of well written well documented cases that just simply get ignored (I would be happy to provide you with them)...kinda like all the dirt we have on bushie...you like the Bush believers can't be bother with facts your mind is made up.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. An almost perfect #22
Refer to anyone who does not immediately agree with you as being uneducated on the matter, lacking in important information, or just plain too stupid to understand your magnificent statements


Sid
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. The irony is that if he knew anything at all about Klass...
...he wouldn't have posted that particular screed...
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. And an attempted #9
9. Accuse your opponent of being a liar, or try some other tactic that will (hopefully) make him angry. If he responds in kind to your endless taunts, change the subject to his anger, and accuse him of name calling. If he accuses you of provoking him, then you have changed the subject of the debate. If he stays on topic, keep the heat up. The Believers in the audience will forgive the worst verbal attacks you use, but they will think even the mildest replies he makes to you are personal attacks that undermine his argument.


Which, MB foiled nicely.
:applause:
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thanks!
It just kill me that someone could be glad someone else is dead just because they disagreed about UFOs! I mean for crying out loud, I disagreed with JPII about pretty much everything and I managed to restrain myself when he died...
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Too bad he didn't have
more (please forgive me for this) Klass.
:hide:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Credit should go to you for turning me onto the credo...
in the first place.

It's amazing how well it predicts what you can expect to be posted.

:hi:

Sid
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. It's almost as though the original author was psychic...
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 01:07 PM by Modem Butterfly
:evilgrin:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Heheh nt
Sid
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Thanks!
I learned of it through another DUer.

If I believed in angels, they would have been singing and I would have been bathed in a warm glow from above as I read it for the first time...
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. I did not always agree with him
But I sure as hell enjoyed his writings. I learned a lot over the years from he and Randi (james).

He will be missed. I think in his honor I will buy a poster of a ufo and hang on my office wall here at home :)
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Spock_is_Skeptical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is a sad loss, indeed
A brilliant man and sharp mind, not many like him around.
He will be sorely missed.

:(
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. We need more people like that
Too many people suffer from lack of critical thinking skills and are willing to believe almost any outlandish claim- extraterrestrials, ghosts, that the moon landing was faked, etc. Thank goodness for him and James Randi, among others.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. RIP Mr Klass
A shame he didn't have the chance to respond to this phenomena:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1546578,00.html

It has not been a happy couple of years for ufology. The closure last year of UFO magazine, following the sudden death of its editor Graham Birdsall, was a disaster for the close-knit UFO-spotting community. Several websites have sprung up to try to fill the void, but the best-known one, Ufodata - launched by Russel Callaghan, who used to work with Birdsall, his father-in-law, on UFO Magazine - kept making my computer crash. Spooky.
Parr's statement echoes those of UFO groups in Indiana and New Jersey, where ufologists are also having a long, dark night of the soul. Meanwhile, a leading Scandinavian ufologist has suggested that "maybe people are just fed up with the UFO hysteria". The sceptics reckon they have enough evidence to pronounce ufology dead.

"The whole UFO thing is a kind of meme," says Susan Blackmore, a psychologist who studies paranormal activity. "It's a craze, a bit like sudoku. UFOs were just a rather long-lived version. But crazes thrive on novelty, and eventually that dies out. It's taken a long time, but it's good that the UFO era is over. My prediction is that it will go away for a long time and then come back."

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