How do you argue with a Republican?

[Siena]

Last night I was out and met this Bush loving, warmongering guy who decided that he wanted to have it out with me. The conversation was useless. How do you argue with someone that doesn't actually believe real facts? He was convinced that the war is just, the media is definitely liberal and cindy is a traitor and that her son would turn over in his grave if he knew what she was doing. (He did literally say that) So, how would you guys handle this guy? And don't write to not deal with the guy. I have many republican family members who also love to engage in battles and always just feel like we live in two separate worlds. I can throw out facts but they just say that they're wrong. How do you argue that?

[KarenInMA]

1. You don't. You smile, pat them on the head,

and let them go back to sleep. If they won't listen to reason, there's nothing you can do.

[Emendator]

Ask him

how many people he can find today who think Vietnam was a good idea. Not very many. The same thing will happen with this war.

[Siena]

35. Said that.

He said oh how can you compare those situations???!! I said, you're right - actually, Iraq is a lot worse. Vietnam was in a remote corner of the world that no one cared about very much while Iraq is at the heart of the world's energy reserves.

[Emendator]

79. If

comparisons to Vietnam are invalid, then ask him why the neocons keep comparing this to WW2. The neocons are always daydreaming about reliving WW2, and that's really an invalid comparison. This is more comparable to the US in the Philippines, France in Algeria, and Israel in Lebanon.

Tell him to look into the history of neoconservatism and ask him if he approves of Trotsky, who was influencial in the evolution of neocon thinking. Nothing gets rightwingers more upset than to be called commies.

But don't overly aggravate yourself with him. You're not going to change his mind. Because we're living in the moment, people are emotionally involved in how things turn out and they put their self worth on an ideology. As this fades, people will begin to see things more clearly. The current battle lies in persuading those who can be persuaded - because we're probably going to attack Iran, and who knows we're that will lead.

If he changes his mind, he'll have to do it on his own sometime in the future. Some people are incapable of admitting they are wrong and that someone else persuaded them that they were wrong. However, if he acts rude and immature about this, then call him on it and avoid discussions on it.

[Iris]

66. and say, "Everyone's entitled to his opinion."

or "Some people think that's true" to everything he says.

[AlCzervik]

2. The way i deal with my brother in law, whom i cannot stand--

"We will have to agree to disagree" and thats that.

[Siena]

9. I do that a lot.

But it just feels so unsatisfying.

[AlCzervik]

18. well i've hit my bil with facts and figures many times to no avail

and what it comes down to is me getting an ulcer or just looking at him and saying the above, he's not worth my energy or stomach acid.

[Siena]

37. You're probably right.

[AlCzervik]

48. Think about this way, you're not going to change your views becasue of his

debates either, the only difference between you and him---is that you're correct and he's dead wrong.

[Siena]

50. That brings something else to mind...

We also talked about this concept. And he said you are so convinced you are right and so am I. Can you accept for a second that I'm right and you're wrong? I said of course not. And he said why? Because your liberal friends and your liberal media told you these things? Again - :banghead:

[libertypirate]

3. You can't the only thing you can do is force them to think about

their possition by asking them questions and make them logically work it out.

[ThomWV]

4. Sneer, Shake Your Head In Disgust, And Walk Away

Simply show your scorn and walk away. It will sink in sooner or later.

[jsamuel]

5. exactly as you said

Point out to them that in order to argue with you, they must provide FACTS. If they don't do that, then they have already lost and you don't need to waste your time on them anymore. (actually say that)

[Siena]

10. I did that.

And he provided HIS facts. This is why I feel like we're from another planet. Where do they read this stuff? How can you think Fox news is liberal???????????????????????? He LITERALLY said that. :banghead:

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. The pat on the head sounds good. As if he knows Casey better than Cindy?

[Siena]

13. I KNOW!!!

I told him that he should be ashamed of himself putting words in Casey's mouth and that Cindy was going to be a woman that will go down in history.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Glad you told him

[Siena]

28. Yes but

he just gave me that old Republican sneer like "oh here goes the liberal hippie again". :banghead:

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. That's his problem then. You planted the seed but you might never

get to see it grow. Hard but true.

[Siena]

39. You're right.

Hopefully it will grow!

[GreenPartyVoter]

41. Hey, I trained to be a teacher. That seed thing is sometimes all that

helps educators get by with the toughest kids. :)

[shoelace414]

7. I usually reply

"Ok"

they'll say "but don't you agree?"

I reply "ok"

I think they take the hint that I won't respond, because it's pointless.

[ET Awful]

8. I find one of these is the most effective way of getting my point across

[Siena]

21. LOL!

Oh that reminds me of another thing he said. He was saying how "all you liberals love peace" but we're hypocrites because liberals are the first to say they want to inflict harm on Bush or his cronies.

[Delphinus]

11. I don't.

I stated on another thread that it broke up a relationship with someone I loved very much.

[Siena]

25. I don't think I could date a republican.

Now THAT is hard work. :) Sorry about your relationship.

[frazzledmom]

12. A quote from yesterday for these types of people

I don't know where it originated but look them in the eye and say this:

"This is what you get when you spend billions on bombs and pennies on education." It's the perfect "last word"

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. Oh, my mom would have LOVED that. :^D

[Siena]

40. oh that's good!

I'm totally using that.

[glitch]

14. I think someone wrote a book on de-programming cult members.

You might have to devote some time to research, there's not going to be an easy answer to your question.
The key is to remember they are fear-based, and somehow their fear is assuaged by their cult membership.

[VaYallaDawg]

63. And fear is the tool they use to win elections too. n/t

[glitch]

80. one ot their tools - another would be owning the corporations that count

the votes and the media that won't report their crimes.

[wake.up.america]

16. There is no way to do so.

I meet Americans once in occasionally, most who work for the US government.

Impossible. They think it is great the Europeans don't like 'em.

A badge of honour.

Once of these days Bush is going to need help, as in Iraq. The Europeans will instruct him on how one takes a flying leap.

[Ian David]

27. The right-wing's nightmare of U.N. troops on American soil may come true

All because of Bush and his stupid, dirty, reckless war.

My Rethugnican friend actually believed that Clinton had U.N. troops hidden in National Parks all around the country and that "Black Helicopters" were spying on us.

But now he denies ever saying that.

[Talismom]

17. Like this..... n/t

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


:shrug:

[movie_girl99]

19. i have found that it is best not to

i spent the better part of last and this year doing it to no avail. They are total effing idiots and canoot be reasoned with. PERIOD!!

[TomInTib]

20. ask him what date is he reporting for duty

and what branch of the military is he joining.

[CrispyQ]

32. Yes!

This is really the only reply that works for these close minded morans. It shuts them up & shows their hypocrisy & cowardice.

[Siena]

42. Oh you know I said that!

But guess what his answer was. Oh that's just like a liberal to tell me that I have to enlist to show that I support the war. And he said well then I can't support the police unless I wear a police uniform and I can't want better mail service until I become a postal worker. Again - :banghead:

[flamin lib]

22. You are right about living in two different worlds. Bush supporters

have their own laws of physics, time and logic completely different from other people.

You can break through though. It takes years sometimes. I have a friend who in all other things is intelligent and well informed. He finally admitted to me that his vote in 2000 and 2004 was a mistake.

Go gently and find things that Republicans have done that they can't possibly support, like the $223 million bridge in Alaska to link a population of 50 to the mainland. Or the $250 million bridge called Don Young's Way after the chairman of the transportation committee. Or the $1.5 billion slipped into the energy bill by Tom Delay to study the best way to explore for oil--all awarded to a single consulting firm in Houston, his home district.

From Republican in general you can eventually get to Bush in particular.

[Siena]

43. Very good point.

I should have gotten more specific on the financial mess that Bush has put this country in. I do have one friend that was a lifelong republican and voted for Kerry in this election. It's a start!

[marions ghost]

69. yes--good points flamin lib

...these people DO care about economics and things that impact them directly like gas prices. You brought up some really good examples of Republican boondoggles. Stick to those issues only. Don't get into abstractions like truth and justice whatsoever.

Don't lecture. Don't get steamed up. Just have an arsenal of facts about practical issues and deliver them in 20 sec sound bites.

[proud patriot]

23. Depends on the Republican

:patriot:

[Siena]

44. Meaning what?

[proud patriot]

58. Meaning everytime it's different for me

if the person is a NRA sticker 2 amendment guy , I use
a certain approach basically leaving the person feeling
that I'm not an enemy but bush is .

if the person is jazzed about using the words "crusade"
and "bush is a man of god" I usually remind the person
of words Jesus said vs. the actions of bush . I like
saying "bush talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk
of faith" I let the person know that "it makes me sad
that people of faith are being lied to by a Great Deciever"

if the person gives me crap on the road I ask them
why they are not in Iraq fighting for freedom.

I love telling people that Rush limbaugh is a drug
addict and they are foolish putting any faith in him.

if they are a thinking thoughtful respectful person
I am as well and we usually find common ground . This
is pretty rare though.

If they bring up Clinton I ask them to stop
worshiping the great and mighty Clenis , that's
old news and I thought republicans were the party of
responsibilty .

etc.....

[jbm]

26. I know you're going to hate my answer..

but in some instances, there truly is no amount of reason or logic or proof that will change the things some people think. They believe what they believe, and they're not going to hear anything you say if it doesn't jive with their assumptions. Some people seek truth by always looking for new info and questioning the things they already believe to be true. Others look for it by only seeing those things that support the conclusions they've already drawn.

The good news is, there are other factors that determine what people choose to believe. The same people that can't hear you now, will very likely change their minds on their own once it becomes more self-serving for them to believe repubs are the bad guys. Course then you'll have to listen to them swear they never supported bush in the first place.

[Siena]

47. I do like your answer.

"Some people seek truth by always looking for new info and questioning the things they already believe to be true. Others look for it by only seeing those things that support the conclusions they've already drawn."

Great quote. And I do hope these people will change their minds. I'll take them swearing they never supported bush.
:)

[Walt Starr]

29. There's only one thing to do when faced with somebody like that

Look them square in the eyes and sing,...

"You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant."

and walk away.

[shaniqua6392]

31. Here is what I say.....

I am sorry you can not see the truth. I will make sure I add you to my prayer list. My fellow Christians and I have been having prayer groups to ask God to show people like you the light! I explain that there are many of us progressive Christians out here who believe GWB is the closest thing to Satan we have ever seen. We feel prayer is the only way to stop him from hijacking the name of Jesus. GWB never asks himself "what would jesus do???". This works every time and I have even tried it on people at church. If I say it to people who are not Christians, they look at me like I am a lunatic and walk away without further arguments. If I say it to people who are Christians, they will often engage me in more conversation because they are curious why I feel this way. I never get too forceful and I think it has worked to change some minds.

[ibegurpard]

33. You can't

Sorry if that's not acceptable to you but you need to concentrate on people who CAN be reasoned with.
The alternative is banging your head against the wall to insanity.

[Siena]

49. I guess I always hope

that no one is beyond reasoning with. You think that's naive?

[wurzel]

34. To have an true "argument" both sides must be rational.

Republicans are paying a high price for believing the lies. Too high to admit and accept. It is a mind set you cannot change yet.

[Autonomy]

36. I think where you're going wrong

is assuming that your opponent has to publically and presently admit defeat. Politics is rarely an instant gratification sport. You have to be satisfied with the type of progress you may never see, but have faith that it exists, and that it's worth it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. Well said

and welcome to DU.

[Siena]

53. Good point.

Thanks.

[marions ghost]

74. right

it's important to LOSE any attachment to a visible outcome or concession. There is no 'winner and loser.' No point locking horns and getting angry. No matter what side of the fence you're on this is difficult to do. Takes a lot of self-discipline.

[Siena]

75. It certainly does.

And I am going to try to keep that in mind.

[Vox_Reason]

38. Tell him he's a traitor who hates America

And when he tells you that's ridiculous, reply that yes, it certainly is.

[katsy]

45. Tell him to grow a dick and...

deal with the facts like an intelligent human being.

Then crush your beer can on his forehead.

[Siena]

55. I can tell you that I wanted to do that!

[katsy]

56. ROFL!

Indulge yourself!

:rofl:

[flamin lib]

71. Or ask if his d**k will reach his @$$. If he answers no, tell him to

go away and come back when it will. If he answers yes, tell him to go F**k himself . . .

[PurityOfEssence]

46. Show how it affects him personally; never appeal to morality

Conservatism is selfishness.

Don't use arguments rooted in the fairness of something, use arguments based in how it will adversely affect him.

If they can't accept facts, ask them why they think they're god.

In America, we're supposed to be equal; if some hold themselves above accountability, ask them why they think they're god.

If the media is liberal, then why, when 52% of the population was against going into Iraq without UN approval, didn't the media make a stink about this? Close to 60% agree that a woman has a right to choose; put some limits on it, and it goes well into the seventies. Media coverage on the choice issue is pretty balanced, even though the people are skewed to the left.

How do they know what Cindy's son would think? Are they god?

If your facts mean nothing, why do his mean anything? What form of monarchy does he support?

Bush himself claims that they never said Saddam had anything to do with 9-11; what's his answer to this? Use the words of other conservatives against him. Ask him why he pays to support the rich.

More than anything, realize what you're doing. If you're fighting and trying to best him in a public forum, that's easy to do: show that he's a fool who's used by the megawealthy. If you're trying to sway him, appeal to his self-interest. Why's it so great that Junior gave him $300.00 and an increase in the child deduction if the roads are so pitiful that he blows out bearings in potholes? Does he like the fact that people making more than $22,500.00 a year don't get overtime now if not covered by a union? Does he hate people who work for a living? The Republicans do. Capital gains income is only taxed at one-tenth of the actual income. Tax rates on the rich are LOWER than they are on the poor when you take into account this and deductions.

If he's a member of a union, you've got him; this bunch has done everything possible to destroy unions. They got rid of requirements of union contracts for bidding on government projects. Junior refused to create the Homeland Security Department unless he could strip 170,000 workers of their union protection.

The Republicans are about money, period. Ask him why he supports the rich. Ask him if he thinks he's going to be part of that exclusive club, because if he isn't, he's paying for it.

Hit self-interest.

[Siena]

THANK YOU!!!!

Great answer!! You are absolutely right - I need to realize what the point of the debate is and know my audience and adjust my arguments based on that. Thanks! :yourock:

[Psephos]

51. People on extremes of left and right think they alone possess the truth

which means neither does.

My left view of the world seems to be the best fit of reality, facts, and principles by far, so naturally I don't understand why it isn't obvious to all people.

But I have withdrawn from thinking it's a universal fit. It's not, and it never has been, if history means anything. Many on the right are driven by the same sense of principle and morality that we are. Not all, but many. This koolaid mentality that one's political opponents are depraved evil amoral harpies has got to go. It is fucking up our world. Political hatred is the first and most important step to war.

I don't know if you were asking your question rhetorically or not, but if you truly want to argue with a Republican, treat him or her the same way you want them to treat you. If that gets you nowhere...then walk away. Dialog requires two, not one.

True believers can never be convinced, but they can be converted...but only from within. You'll NEVER win an argument with a Republican - and a Republican will NEVER win an argument with you - but you may nevertheless contribute something to a future moment of conversion, if you treat them as humans and not as objects of hatred or derision.

Politics...religion...what's the fucking difference? Sometimes I get so tired of all this "there is one truth" shit. Hatred is the anger of the weak.

Peace.

[Siena]

60. Thank you for that.

Very wise words and that helps a lot.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solly Mack]

54. I just point and laugh...the angrier they get...the more I laugh

[Touchdown]

57. Your friend needs a deprogrammer, not a debater.

This is a level beyond mere facts and keeping up on current events. This is cult deprogramming territory he's in.

Plant the seeds and walk away. That's all you can do.

[rman]

59. Plant the seeds and walk away. That's all you can do.

What he said.
I felt that is worth repeating.

[Siena]

61. Well this guy was no friend of mine.

But it just made me think about it in terms of family members that do think these things. Very smart family that does keep up with current events. Somehow they just see it differently. I don't think I'll ever really understand.

[marions ghost]

77. excellent advice

and I like the way you said that. To distinguish between someone who has a few conservative ideas and someone who has been completely hijacked and has no independent thoughts.

There is something obsessive and wacky about someone who drinks the kool-aid in the first place. You are not going to perform miracles.

[Siena]

78. Good point.

[friesianrider]

64. How do you argue with a stupid person?

You can't. It is an absolute science I've created. Republicans are one of three things:

1. Stupid

2. Evil

3. Both

How do you argue with any of those three sub-Republican categories? You can't. I usually just cut to the chase and call them evil morons.

[hippiegranny]

65. he's a complete tool

why waste your breath? he has nothing at stake with you. family is different. save your energy for them.

[Siena]

70. I know.

This guy is no friend of mine. But my family I have to deal with!

[Bragi]

67. A serious question you ask

Here's my serious answer: don't spend a lot of time trying to debate anything with commited right wing morans. They will not engage in reality-based argument, your words will have zero effect on them, and you will feel badly that you cannot connect with them. If you persist in debating right wingers, your own confidence and mental health will eventually suffer. The thing tpo do it be polite, see them as hostile enemies, tyell them nothing, and try to out-organize and out-vote the bastards.

- B

[rockymountaindem]

68. If they say the facts are wrong, ask them to say how they know.

Usually they don't.

I find the best way to argue with Republicans is to play dumb and ask them to make their case. Having them go the extra step usually leads to their downfall because they don't know anything besides the basic talking points.

[Siena]

72. True.

And I did try that. He would usually come back to one of my favorite republican tactics. That republican sneer where they shake their head and say "oh you silly, silly liberal." How is that an argument??????

[NewJeffCT]

73. Let me guess

This guy thinks Bush's biggest problem is that he is NOT conservative enough; the Democratic Party is a lot more liberal today than it was in the 1960s; Hillary Clinton is the most liberal person in America, but you can make a case for Michael Moore; Bill Clinton is a rapist who deserved to be impeached; etc, etc.

I don't think you can argue with those folks - they need to be deprogrammed.

If they are not quite that bad, then just ask them for facts to support their argument.

[Siena]

76. I almost forgot my favorite line - Bush is soft on terror!

This guy was really a character.

[LanternWaste]

81. Hunter S. Thompson once wrote

Hunter S. Thompson once wrote, "Never argue with the ignorant- they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Liberal Media? Get a list of media ownership and ask him if G.E. and Westinghouse (3rd largest multinational in the world and fifth largest defense contractor respectively which happen to own ABC and CBS) are "liberal" multi-national, for-profit corporations.

A "Just" war? Ask why we have been told four separate reasons to date and the only time the reasons are changed are when they are illustrated to be invalid.

Cindy a traitor? Ask him to cite the law which specifically indicts her and why it doesn't apply to Scooter and Rove in this case. Ask him why the term did not apply to those protesting Clinton's air-campaign in the Balkans.

Son turning over in grave? Ask him how he can better see into the heart and mind of a dead son than his own mother. Ask him if it's more appropriate for you, a stranger or his own mother to infer his wishes if he dies tomorrow. Ask why.

Ask. Ask. Ask. And ask him to source out and cite his sources. And always ask "why", "who", "what", "when", and "where" (and follow-up with a request for his sources again)

Your family fully supports the war? Ask those who are under 41 years of age why they have not yet enlisted (or enlisted again) to illustrate the true depth of their support.

Keep asking questions. Ask him to always cite his sources. Tell him that Rush Limbaugh is self-admittedly an editorialist and not a journalist so he is off-limits for using as a news-source.

Ask him to relate the specific and relevant reasons he supports this war, but howled on with righteous indignation against Clinton's Yugoslavian air-campaign in the 90's (they seem to trip up on this one every friggin' time as long as you use the phrase, "specific and relevant differences").

This happened to me at a bar-b-q about four weeks ago (weekend of July 18) when a freeper pal I hadn't seen in a few years showed up. I told him politics are off-limits today, 'cause I wanted to enjoy myself. He pushed. And pushed. And pushed some more until I slapped him into the ground with the above recommendations. It was ugly and brutal and waaayyyy too many people saw what he thought was his own humiliation. The "why haven't you enlisted, yet" tack was bad form on my part, as he was already down and out for the count,and then I finished it off with the HST quote I opened this response with.

I just wanted to eat some brisket and enjoy ogling the skirts, but nooooo! Dirt-sucking, half-educated, illiterate, paleolithic, knuckle-dragging, arm-chair patriots wouldn't let that happen.

I held out my hand for him to shake after it was all over. But he was drunk, embarrassed and pissed. It was a mean bit of visceral fun on my part for which I've since prayed for forgiveness.

:evilgrin: