OMG! Malloy discussing new book alleging that Wellstone's death

[Talismom]

was an assassination. Excellent interview! Speculates that control of the plane was taken away by an electromagnetic pulse weapon.


Control of the senate described as motive.

I've expected this since the day it happened. It was just to unbelievable that something else could go so wrong!

[LeftyDarthBrodie]

1. Anyone honest and aware of what happened

to Paul, Sheila and the others who died have felt that this was a political assassination. Do you have the name of the author and/or the book title?

[Talismom]

8. Sorry, didn't get it. Will check his web site for the info. n/t

[Talismom]

9. Title: American assasination. The Strange Death of Senator Paul Wellstone.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

21. This book is about a year old or so, and having read excerpts and

listened to co-author Jim Fetzer, there are some pretty interesting facts about the crash. Like how did the FBI get there from St. Paul not all that long after the crash?

[dflprincess]

29. Fetzer is a professor of logic

at the University of Minnesota Duluth. He's done a lot of work on JFK's assassination as well. I believe his website is assassinationscience.com - I imagin a Google on his name would take you to it.

I heard the interview tonight and found it very interesting.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

33. He is a regular at Blackopradio.com, and I have listened to many

of his audios. He has been doing some 9/11 research too. They have a great free archive.

[leftchick]

65. Here is the pdf link to Death of a Senator

http://www.assassinationscience.com/About_the_Death_of_a_Senator.pdf

With a lot of JFK in there as well. Fascinating site!

[lonestarnot]

67. says I'm not authorized to view. ... poop!

[leftchick]

69. Here is the site I got the pdf from

http://www.assassinationscience.com/

Perhaps if you cick from there it will work?

[lonestarnot]

71. Thanks leftchick!

[devinsgram]

77. Ah, logic, something the rightwing is lacking.

Put this book on to do list.

[LeftyDarthBrodie]

70. Thanks

[Skip Intro]

2. Gut feeling the day it happened as well

in context, from an 8/05 perspective, there is little doubt in my mind.

[benburch]

3. I thought this the day it happened.

An EMP weapon can easily kill an aircraft.

[w13rd0]

6. Of course weeks later...

...the DoD flew a test run of a Predator drone equipped with said weapon that took out "a high level al Queada operative" in Jordan or some such (it wasn't in Iraq or Afghanistan) by disabling the controls in the vehicle they were driving. Of course, nary a word was heard about such a wonder weapon after that. Poof. What's up with that?

[latebloomer]

12. Don't know about this type of weapon

but when it happened my immediate thought was "They killed him."

[aquart]

16. Mine, too.

[DBoon]

4. Wasn't Ted Kennedy suppose to be on that flight as well?

nt

[koopie57]

13. yes, but I don't recall why he didn't go along

[dflprincess]

28. Never confirmed or denied by either Wellstone's or Kennedy's people

Kennedy was in Minneapols that day to campaign with Wellstone. When they finished in Mpls they were to go up to a rally in Duluth. Wellstone changed the plan to attend a funeral up north. He and Kennedy still planned to hook up later in Duluth. Kennedy stayed in the cities to campaign. Had they stuck to the original plan, it is believed they would have flown to Duluth on the same plane. But, as I said, I have never heard that confirmed.

[Nothing Without Hope]

100. Wow - that would have been two at one blow. No wonder they struck.

I've filed this in the "Mysterious suicides and deaths of the inconvenient," which is one of many folders in my "GOP horrors and scandals" file of bookmarks.

I hope Rep. Conyers takes very good care of himself and stays out of small planes or dark, lonely highways.

[Richard Steele]

5. No thoughts on HOW, but I always thought it was an obvious murder.

[seemslikeadream]

7. The Paul Wellstone crash was.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=561809


Senator Paul Wellstone and Mozambique's President Samora Machel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2167138

[seemslikeadream]

10. Wellstone Was Murdered"American Assassination,"

Wellstone Was Murdered"American Assassination," two professors explain how

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2332485

[seemslikeadream]

11. dupe

[Literate Tar Heel]

14. if I remember correctly

from what I've read about the incident, the fishiest part to me was that the FBI supposedly arrived at the crash site before even the local authorities did, despite the fact that the nearest field office was something like 2 hours away ... and that's not even the office the agents came from ... in the article the aforementioned professors wrote, I believe they say that for the FBI to have arrived when they did, they would have had to have been on their way to the crash site well before there was any trouble at all with the plane

[walldude]

18. Yeah I remember reading about that as well

Always thought there was something not right about his death.

[BQueen]

23. I agree that the "too prompt" arrival

of FBI agents took this out of the tinfoil hat arena for me. (Have to admit that my first thought was EMP before I even heard about the FBI oddity, though...)

Anybody else here remember the EMP part of the Travolta character's plan in "Broken Arrow"? Pretty effective...

[Scout1071]

15. Don't forget that Mel Carnahan and son died in plane crash only

2 weeks before the election when he was running against John Ashcroft. As Michael Moore correctly pointed out, the people of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person rather than vote for John Ashcroft. As a native Kansan and longtime Mizzou nemesis, even I have to say that this is one of the best things to ever happen in MO.

But still, I cannot help it that my curiosity peaks after such events.

[flyarm]

108. mel carnahan wasn't the only to die in missouri jerry litton was winning

democratic primary for senate..many thought he was a shoe in for presidential material!

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/printer.pat,local/3774d78c.a17,.html

Night reminds Missourians of Litton tragedy in 1976

Date: 10/17/00 00:01

Gov. Mel Carnahan's plane crash Monday night revived memories of a similar twin-engine plane tragedy involving another popular Missouri Democrat 24 years ago.

It was an August election night in 1976. Jerry Litton, a two-term congressman from Chillicothe, was winning the Democratic primary for U.S. Senate.

Litton climbed into a twin-engine plane for a short flight to Kansas City, where his victory party was planned. Shortly after takeoff from Chillicothe, the plane crashed into a field and burned.

"He was presidential material," a friend, Jim Stubbs, said the next day, as Democrats across the state grieved. Litton had beaten two strong opponents, Rep. James W. Symington and former governor Warren E. Hearnes.

Litton's wife, Sharon, their two children, the pilot and the pilot's son died.

Republican Jack Danforth, who at the time was Missouri's attorney general, won the election.

Pilot error and a problem with the crankshaft in the plane's left engine were blamed for that crash.

Decades later, Democrats in northwest Missouri said they still had not recovered from losing such a popular politician.

"He was one of the greatest young speakers of his time," a Northland civic leader, Jay Dillingham, was quoted as saying in 1990.




I lived in kansas city when this happened and i remember it being a very sad time..we lost a great one..but many thought there was foul play then!

[Cleita]

17. If this can be backed up with some more irrefutable facts, it proves

what most of us suspect that our new rulers will not stop at murder to acheive their goals and gains.

[sintax]

19. Nominated-Need More

As an interesting note to this is the tale of Barry Seal the legendary drug runner who was offed. Now many Senators ride in the same type of plane as Wellstone, which was the same type of plane Barry Seal smuggled the goods in. Purportedly Seal had the controls wired/rigged in such a way as to escape detection. Purportedly the very plane that Seal used was, after his death, then put in the hands of GHW Bush who used it when he was King of Texas.

Possibly Pappy Bush had friends who could rig electronics in these planes, knew their system?

Is this all urban legend?

I remember a classic picture of Pappy Bush leaning over to James Baker with his face all screwed and purportedly Bush was saying something like "Who is that f*cker to question me?" referring to Wellstone. Bush hated Wellstone.

[novak goes postal]

20. These people will stop at nothing

I suspected this since it happened. Being a pilot myself, the plane was on final then for no reason turned .... doesn't make sense. When investigating a crime scene...who benefits from this. Norm Coleman was going down in defeat and Kennedy was supposed to be on the plane... two big headaches for the bush crime family.....



The self-righteous Robert Novak comes crashing down to earth

[rateyes]

22. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[phusion]

25. Hi! Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[newyawker99]

60. Hi novak goes postal!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[newswolf56]

24. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Sen. Wellstone...

was not just a number in the Senate headcount but a genuine rallying-figure for the Minnesota Left -- someone who had resurrected the old radical class-struggle analysis that unified FDR's New Deal coalition (and therefore could do so again -- nationally -- during the forthcoming economic collapse). Which, if true, suggests he may have indeed been dangerous to the oligarchy.

(Someone please confirm if this is correct information; I am extremely ignorant of Minnesota politics.)

[niallmac]

26. That is my understanding.

[stevietheman]

30. Or.... maybe it was just an accident. n/t

I mean, come on. Must *everything* be a conspiracy?

[Kurovski]

79. It might have been. We don't really know.

But, must everything be a "coincidence"? Particularly coincidences that are so remarkably and consistently helpful to the Republican Party?

I'm not much of a coincidence theorist.

Someone has overplayed their hand.

[stevietheman]

80. I can think of two Republican senators who died in plane crashes in...

recent times. Are those events suspicious too? Did they help the Democrats?

(Note: To be a thoughtful person, I must occasionally disagree with my progressive friends).

[stevietheman]

81. btw, I'm referring to John Tower and John Heinz. n/t

n/t

[alarimer]

109. I'm with you

I just don't buy it. Small planes crash all the damn time and, usually, it is an accident due to mechanical failure or pilot error or whatever.

[Kurovski]

113. We don't really know.

But usually, yes that is indeed the case.

[fujiyama]

120. .

.

[dflprincess]

31. I think he was a rally figure for the left everywhere

we in Minnesota were just lucky to have him as our senator.

He also opposed the war and voted against the resolution - the only senator up for reelection to do so. Up until that point, the polls showed him running neck in neck with that weasel Coleman. After that vote, Wellstone pulled ahead and was outside the margin of error in the polls.

I had it from a highly reliable source that Rove was on the phone to the Secretary of State's office telling her how to handle absentee ballots before it was even public Wellstone was dead.

I've never doubted that those bastards killed him.

[serryjw]

34. A Little Background........

You are correct....
http://www.subversivetalk.com/week137.html
quote......
`Paul Wellstone is a hunted man.. not just another Democrat on White
House political czar Karl Rove's target list.. Rather, getting rid of
Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush.. "There
are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking
about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide
confides. "This one is political and personal for them."'
end quote.......
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/wellnbsh.htm

[newswolf56]

35. Thank you for the information. Makes me wonder if...

an air crash is but the present-day equivalent of the "lone gunman" assassinations of the '60s.

[Literate Tar Heel]

36. that and "single-car accidents" ... (n/t)

[newswolf56]

38. Such as killed Karen Silkwood?

[Eloriel]

87. Yeah -- those single gunmen political assissinations creates martyred

saints, you know. Puts the whole country in a sour mood. Necessitates Congressional investigations that have to be "fixed." Too. Much. Work.

Fatal small aircraft accidents, "suicides" (no matter how improbable), and so forth are much cleaner, quicker, more plausible, less demanding and less traumatic.

[serryjw]

39. Actually if you are a polical junkie as we all are.....

They spent millions to get Norm Coleman elected, The control of the Senate and all the wanted to do hung in the balance. They hated him and all he stood for. He was losing UNTIL he voted AGAINST the invasion and his numbers shot up a few weeks before the 2002 election. They were running out of time.
I loved Paul Wellstone and every thing he fought for I agreed with. My new furrbaby is named Kootchstone after Paul Wellstone and Dennis Kucinich. The memorial edition of the Minnesota Daily hangs in my office.

[newswolf56]

41. My stance on the war was somewhat different then. (I am not...

a pacifist, and hence -- especially since there is no question Iraq was involved in the 1993 World Trade Center attack -- I did not instinctively oppose the pending invasion of Iraq as some others on the Left did.) Also -- and ultimately more importantly -- I was up to my eyebrows in an unfolding and eventually ruinous life crisis, so I wasn't paying nearly as much attention to current events as I do typically. That said, I have been a "political junky" since I was 12 years old -- the main reason journalism was my lifetime work.


Edit: last sentence added.

[serryjw]

44. You are no different than 75%

of the country (25% is LOST the RW Bushit) and they have lives, problems that consume their waking hours (like making a living and raising children) and BELIEVED what they were told in MSM.

[newswolf56]

51. For most of us, MSM (from which I have long been banished...

by the combination of my Leftist politics, lower-class economic background and age), is unfortunately the only news source we have.

As to my radical credentials, I was part of the Civil Rights Movement during the early 1960s (for which I was thrown into jail in the South) and was part of the anti-Vietnam War Movement during the late 1960s and early 1970s. I also had considerable connection to the alternative press of 25, 30 and 40 years ago. But even with all that, I initially fell for the Bush line. This was not because I am stupid but because I am a native-born U.S. citizen, a native New Yorker and a Vietnam Era military veteran -- reenlistment-furious at the 9/11 attack (but too old to serve). Moreover I believe any attack on the United States warrants a tenfold response -- especially (and here my politics come directly into play) when that attack is motivated by Yehvehistic religion: whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim, the followers of Yehveh have repeatedly proven themselves the most murderous cult in human history.

But I have since come to believe the war is being waged under wholly false pretenses: not to liberate Iraq from the bloodthirsty dictator whose intelligence operatives helped bomb the WTC in 1993, but rather precisely to give Islamic Fundamentalism a more thoroughly entrenched and reinforced foundation -- this in service to three forces: (1)-Bush ally Saudi Arabia; (2)-the Bush/Grover Norquist scheme to create an alliance of Christofascists and Muslims on the basis of common hatreds -- hatreds of women, gays, liberty itself; (3)-the global oligarchy, which requires for its tyranny global fascism, whether Islamic or Christofascist (and by its control of wealth could indeed force a rapprochement upon a world hitherto equally divided between Christian theocracy and the Jihadists' intended global caliphate).

In other words, Bush's "blunders" are not blunders at all, but rather diabolically cunning expressions of clandestine policy.

Do not misunderstand: I still believe we should and must defend ourselves against Jihadist aggression -- just as we should and must defend ourselves against street criminals. Furthermore, just as the Soviet Union learned to its great frustration in the Middle East, there can be no possible united front with anyone as opposed to individual liberty and as wed to murderous superstition as the Jihadists are. But I no longer believe liberty (or "democracy") is what we are fighting for. I believe instead this whole war (including the allegedly "accidental" escape of bin Laden) is being fought to serve the infinitely exploitative interests of the global oligarchy: the ultimate concentration of wealth, the ultimate degradation of all the world's workers into slaves -- theocracy and imperialism on a scale hitherto unthinkable.

And on the basis of that analysis I -- who ALWAYS opposed Bush's domestic economic policies as unabashedly vicious warfare against America's workers and poor -- have now come to oppose Bush's shooting war in the Middle East also. Indeed, Bush's hostile indifference to the well-being of our soldiers is merely another expression of the scorn and even hatred with which he regards all other American workers.

Particularly since you seem to be questioning the validity of my opinion -- reducing me to the (presumably zomboid) "75 percent" for which you seem to have such elitist contempt -- I hope this makes my position (and the objective reasoning behind it) a bit more clear.


Edited: for specificity.

[serryjw]

52. OMG not at all

The 75% comment was not meant as an insult. WHY should ANYONE have to spend 40 hours a week seeking the truth because it is so cleverly disguised.
I agree with 100% of what you said above. I (financially) sacrificed much to work to expose the lies. I am not looking for a pat on the back, it was my choice. I started fundraising for the dems 2 weeks before 9-11. I was so angry over the 2000 election I had to do SOMETHING. A few months after 9-11 a 'high donor' I was talking to asked me if I had read Ahmed's book "War on Freedom"? I said 'no' and was told to go get it. It was a watershed for me. Up to that point I believed the party line propaganda. The book was the most difficult I had ever read. I had to come face to face with the truth that MY government did this!......Then I went on a journey to seek MORE truth. THEY can call it conspiracies, but I know it as truth. Someday everyone will...I hope I'm alive to see it.
Namaste,
Serry

[newswolf56]

53. Really sorry I misunderstood! (Oversensitivity must surely be one of...

the afflictions of old age.) Please accept my apology, and please tell me more about the book War on Freedom -- I have heard of it, but discounted it because of the religious bias I assumed would shape its author's opinion. (My own hypothesis comes from what the Old Left called "objective analysis": application of Occam's Razor and its principle of parsimony while sitting in a boiling stew of class conflict. {Too bad the New Left purged all our working intellectuals -- we'd have a lot less difficulty understanding this war had that not happened}.)

I'm going out for drinks with a friend and some acquaintances; be back about 2:30 a.m.(PDT).

[serryjw]

55. Apology accepted

Newswolf, I could attempt explain but reading the Amazon reviews will do it justice much better than I could. Remember the context of time. This was published only a few months after 9-11 when no one really knew what had happened....everyone was still shell shock. I remember coming home from work every day saying to myself that I couldn't read any more, but in the end truth won out. I felt like I was bearing witness to the truth and I owed it to 3000 people. I cried every day reading it but finally finished it. It is worth reading but we KNOW so much more now, that you have to adjust your thinking to that moment in time.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0930852400/qid=1123917937/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9248865-0042317?v=glance&s=books.
Send me a private email tomorrow after you read the reviews. I'm in Denver and going to bed.........good night!

[Eloriel]

88. War on Freedom

don't mean to intrude on a private conversation here, but I would recommend the book highly, even tho I haven't myself read it.

I read about the first 90 pages or so, and couldn't take any more. It is thoroughly researched, superbly documented/footnoted. It is devastating. It is the truth. It is real. It will change your life.

I think there are other sources that will do the same -- Paul Thompson's 9-11 Timeline (and/or his book based on same?), for example. Plenty of threads here at DU in the 9-11 Dungeon (whatever it's called, wherever it's located).

[newswolf56]

112. No intrusion, and thanks for the additional recommendation. Between...

Between serryjw and you, I absolutely intend to read it. I'll try to get it from my local library as soon as I finish a current project (on which I should be working now, rather than wandering about on DU) -- but DU is not only so much more fun, it's so much more intellectually rewarding too!

Edit: arthritic-finger typo.

[dflprincess]

103. He wasn't losing - they were pretty much even in the polls

any difference was within the margin of error. You are correct, however, that Paul pulled ahead after his IWR vote - and did move out of the margin of error.

[Talismom]

57. The pieces you're enclosing are chilling and make me feel like crying...

to quote from one...

"What does Wellstone say? "I think the way to oppose George W. Bush is to
stand up to him, to speak out when his policies are wrong, to put holds on
bad legislation he's promoting. Obviously, that's not the sort of opposition
Bush and Cheney approve of. The nice thing is that, even if they can dictate
the Republican nominee, the people of Minnesota still get to choose their
senator."

Of course we suspected this... this is why the DLC and all the media roll over and fetch for the neocons...this was the only way for them to silence Wellstone..Malloy is right on...this really is the "Bush Crime Family" and rather than admitting to wearing a tin foil hat I insist that anyone denying this is just that--in denial! Unless we band together and FIGHT to save our country from these thugs, it's all over!

[serryjw]

82. I have shed enough tears to fill an ocean

In the end it makes it that much more difficult to tolerate the other side. THEY didn't kill Wellstone but THEY will never believe that Bushit & Co did...the ignorance drives me crazy

[Talismom]

84. I know what you mean. n/t

[lostnfound]

49. May 2002: "a hunted man"..the Nation

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20020527&s=nichols

Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."

..The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda

..."Paul's a controversial guy. He's the little guy who takes on the big guys. That is not something the political process is designed to reward these days. If you take strong stands you put yourself at risk--and Paul takes more strong stands on more issues than just about anyone else." ...

"When I first met the President, he called me 'Pablo,'" Wellstone jokes. "That lasted a day or two. Then they started trying to figure out how they were going to get rid of me." While other Democrats approached the new Administration cautiously, Wellstone raised hell. In one of the first confrontations between the Administration and the newly Democratic Senate, Wellstone used his chairmanship of a subcommittee on worker safety to demand that Bush Labor Department officials justify the Administration's rejection of federal ergonomics standards. And Bush aides are still smarting over a Wellstone amendment to the President's tax cut plan that diverted $17 billion to veterans programs.

[Eloriel]

86. Yes, but it was also more than that

There were specific legislative and investigative issues that Wellstone was working on that were anathema to The Bush Crime Family and their friends. Asbestos was a huge issue and problem (c.f., Dresser Industries, W.R. Grace, Halliburton).

PLUS they wanted the Senate back, remember? And they GOT it back, too, tho they had to piss on Wellstone's grave (and demonize the memorial service) to do it -- and probably engage in as much election fraud and vote suppression as they were able to.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. Not just the Minnesota Left

I was still living in Oregon at the time, and people who knew I was from Minnesota approached me and said that they had cried when they heard the news.

[Carolab]

116. Yes, that's right. He also was adamantly opposed to the war.

He was a holdout. He spoke up on the Iron Range and told the assembly he had been directly threatened by Cheney as a consequence.

Also, he was huge on alternative energy. I watched him live on C-Span not too long before he died giving a great presentation about it.

[tjdee]

27. We had an exhaustive debate on this when it happened...

The day it happened I posted a knee jerk thread called "Yes Virginia, they do murder liberals". I wish I didn't start that thread--but I never believed it was an accident. We had DU pilots and people much more knowledgeable about it than I talking about it...and saying that yes, it probably was just an accident.

It makes sense that it was an accident. But my gut still has doubts.
I was very shaken by Wellstone's death, and it is still an enormous loss.

[PinkyisBlue]

45. Accidents

Paul Wellstone's death could be an "accident", but how come these accidents seem to occur with much greater frequency to Democrats than to Republicans? Why have no Republican Senators or Reps. been in a tragic "accident"? Even Bush, Cheney, Condi and Rummy, with all the flying around they do, have not been involved in an accident. (Oops, I forgot about Bush's fall off his bike, but that was on the ground).
The good die young, while the bad just go on and on, destroying the lives around them.

[suegeo]

64. Heinz and Tower

Heinz (PA?) and Tower (TX?) died in plane crashes. They were republican, I think.

Not that this information should take away from anyone their suspicions about deaths of all the prominent Democrats. Because in my mind, some of them were hits.

Also: There were assassination attempts on Daschle and Leahy right around the time the Enabling Act, err, I mean the Patriot act, was being shoved down our throat.

[DemonFighterLives]

73. Hi Suegeo!

I see you are nearing the magical 1,000 mark.
:thumbsup:
We missed you at the picnic last night.

[Art_from_Ark]

78. Tower may have been a Republican, but he wasn't "garden variety"

"The Iran-contra scandal was at full steam when President Reagan appointed a Special Review Board on December 1, 1986, consisting of John Tower, Edmund Muskie, and Brent Scowcroft. They hired 24 staff people and interviewed 50 named individuals and three unnamed CIA officials, along with a "substantial number of additional interviews conducted by the staff." Oliver North and John Poindexter declined to appear, and the Commission lacked subpoena power.

"The report was expected to be a whitewash, but it was surprisingly critical of Reagan's "management style" and provided one of the first official confirmations of the NSC's arms-for-hostages policy Internal memos and PROF notes (computer mail) between the major players were quoted in detail, and a major portion of North's private funding network was exposed. . The best measure of the Tower Commission's success can be seen in the fact that their report, a ten-week effort by three "safe" appointees, had more impact than the Congressional report released on November 18, 1987, which absorbed the best efforts of both the Senate and House and a combined staff of 100 lawyers, investigators, accountants and auditors. One difference is that Congress went for the TV cameras, while the Tower Commission didn't waste any time with Fawn Hall. "

http://www.namebase.org/sources/IE.html

[wli]

32. sounds like the Wellstone assassination story is kinda-sorta breaking

The MSM will never touch it, though.

[dbeach]

37. so was JFK jr

the MM said he was incompetent flyiar and it was big fog that nite..
that is a huge lie..I live about 20 miles from nantucket in RI and when they get fog..we get fog..There was no fog that nite...!!

SOS gang and elite mentality did from JFK to 9/11 to Wellstone to..

Beneath EVERY Bush is dirt!!

[An_Opened_Hand]

40. Just after Wellstone's Death Gov. restricted access to Lightning info

It use to be that anyone could look at real time and historical Lightning strike data for the entire USA at the Government Lightning Strike site. Soon after Wellstone's death all real time and historical data was taken off-line and you now have to register with the US Government and show that you have a valid research reason to be able to look at the historical data.
As far as I can see this lightning data is the only government weather records that are unavailable. Radar and weather satellite photos don't seem to have limits on their viewing and use, only the lightning strike records or off limits.
An EMP discharge may very well show up on these records. The US Government has the most accurate and extensive network for tracking lightning strikes. I know because I use to go there and follow storms on this government site just before Wellstone died. Funny how now there's something about lightning activity that must be kept from terrorist hands. Who knows what distruction they could rain down on us if they had this infomation.
I've never seen anyone talk about this either in the MSM or on any blogs or chat sites. Has anyone sean articals or discussion about this before?

below is the only NOAA Lightning site I could find and it's afiliated to the US DOE and centered on the Yucca mountain area. What's up with that.

http://www.sord.nv.doe.gov/Lightning/Lightning-sord.htm


Just as an aside. There are some privite/personal web sites that show lightning stikes, but if you follow the same storms on two or more near by sites at the same time, the lightning strike locations don't line up very well from site to site and coverage over the US is very spotty. Not much coverage out in the middle of the country. See the below site, click on the Map's red boxes to see a site with lightning info in that area of the country.

http://www.aninoquisi.com/live_lightning.htm

[faithnotgreed]

42. welcome doug - were glad youre here

interesting stuff you posted

[An_Opened_Hand]

47. Thanks!

This is just one of those things that make me go "HMMMMM?"

Wheather an EMP weapon is possible I've seen some articals (Popular Machanics comes to mind) that basicly show one theory on how it would work.


Construct a large capacitor (one that could hold a very large charge).

Charge it up.
(Voltage is important, but the number of electrons stored maybe more critical. Current is the measure(volume) of electron flow and you want the hightest flow of electrons over the shortest period of time.)

surround the plates of the charged capacitor with a shaped explosive that can be triggerd to detonated in a moving blast wave that drives the capacitor's plates together, (this controlled explosion technology is something we do now with plutonium fueled bombs A-bombs.) This moving blast front will quickly short the charge and generate a strong Electo-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) in the process.

This weapon would be a one time shot, but if you controlled the layout of the capacitors plates, the electrical charge, the timing and shape of the explosion, all kinds of pulses might be generatable. Even directional I would think.



Maybe the testing of these devices were getting a little to big and would be visible on an open lightning tracking network.

I've also heard that some of the stuff used in "Shock n' Aw" were small versions of this tecnology used to knock out the communications and Power grid in Iraq. Just rumor for all I Know.

[faithnotgreed]

50. you are going to be quite an addition

the interest the mind the explaining
will be most welcome

thank you again and i hope you will jump in as many threads as you like (or more likely - as many as you have time to~)
as you can see they are fast and furious but good discussion is crucial

and yes - i think we all agree that this "accident" just begs further investigation

best wishes and look forward to reading more from you

[Talismom]

58. Wow Doug! This is amazing! The classifying of this information makes no

senese for any other reason than to hide the truth! If only this could be brought out and investigated!

[newyawker99]

61. Hi dougffox!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[DemonFighterLives]

72. Welcome to DU!

This is the first I heard about the lightning data. Thanks for bringing that. I did quite a bit of searching on EMP and all other possible causes. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

What I see as very telling was the coverup of the initial witnesses while the MSM such as wolfie kept trying to pin it on the weather. Carol Carmody, Cia person, comes on to state for the NTSB that it was probably the weather before any investigation had even started. What kind of junk science is that to blather about the probable cause, when witnesses were telling other stories.
They killed him and stymied the whole movement of questioning the crime family. They literally scared the crap out of those not killed. The later Anthrax mailings stifled the remainder of the questioning dems.

[DanCa]

43. I thought wellstone was set up from the start ....however....

the emp weapon is hard to believe I mean i read that in a recent flash comic. The rest of the hypothesis assisination, senate control rings true. I just disagree as to the how.

[bvar22]

54. A mistake to focus on EMP Weapon.

There are several known ways in current inventory to bring down a light plane without leaving evidence of sabotage. I assume that the Carlyle Group and other secret intelligence agencies know more ways to do it than I do. Most would only take a small conspiracy of perhaps only 3 or 4 people "in the know".

Other ways besides EMP:
*Military grade lasar that could flash blind the pilots especially at low altitude.----in inventory

*The NEW Microwave HEAT Weapon that causes instant rise of skin (and internal organs?) temperature to max pain level (death?). There would be no evidence after fire in the crash. I read where they are experimenting with this in Iraq to incapacitate crowds. Someone posted a picture of (what they said) was one mounted on a truck at the bush* coronation in DC.---in inventory

*Incapacitating gas on a radio trigger in a plastic or cellulose container that would be consumed in the fire.----in inventory

*Psycho active drugs in bloodstream that are either encapsulated and triggered by radio signal, or drugs timed to cause total pilot impairment 40 minutes after consumption of coffee before flight. Micro quantities are NOT detectable at autopsy, especially after a fire.---in inventory.

There is a problem with EMP, since their aircraft is NOT "fly by wire", and this is what most of the pilots on DU pointed out. Even with a total electronic failure, the Beechcraft they were flying is completely controllable since the control surfaces are mechanically connected. Its like you can still steer your car even if the engine stops. If the engines had stopped (and there is doubt that EMP would do that), they would have crashed, but it would have been a controlled, survivable nose up impact, not the nose down impact of the Wellstone crash.

The guy tonight DID say that the propellers are controlled by an electronic servo which could be affected by EMP, but even with the propeller pitch control disabled, the aircraft would have still been controllable.






There will NEVER be any HARD EVIDENCE recovered from the crash site. The NTSB official report said that "they found NO EVIDENCE of sabotage". The ONLY evidence that could now be offered would have to come from the direct testimony of a conspirator, or an "insurance package" a conspirator might leave with an attorney in case of accident. If it was an assassination, the "need to know" group would probably be limited to less than 5 or 6 (much less than JFK), so there is not much chance of one of those "turning states evidence" or having a psychotic religious conversion.

The technology to bring down Wellstone's plane WITHOUT leaving evidence EXISTS!
It really is up to you to decide:
Did the BFEE assassinate Paul Wellstone?

In MY heart, I KNOW they did!
The BFEE (PNAC) has the means to do so, and would not hesitate to use it!

[DanCa]

56. I agree with you 100 percent.

All the ways that you listed are more feasible than emp. I am not knocking anyones theory. It's just that in my limited imagination I just can readily accept your answers more than an emp pulse wave.

[DemonFighterLives]

74. Great Post Bvar

I appreciate bringing the other options to the table, although no potential answers should be discarded. The crazy neocons were ready and waiting to try their new toy.
They not only killed the movement, but they killed off leaders in the women's movement, mental disabled movement and I forget the others. A veritable trifecta for the crime family.
:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. Another possibility:

a bomb fueled with aviation fuel in a consumable packaging. One eyewitness saw a burst of flame from the plane as it was reducing altitude for the landing.

One thing always struck me as suspicious: I turned on CNN the minute I saw the news on DU, and there was Wolf Blitzer telling the onsite reporter that the cause of the crash was ice on the wings and bad weather. The reporter was bewildered and said that the weather was just fine. (Scarletwoman, a DUer who lives not far from the crash site, confirmed that the weather was just fine that day.)

Why was Wolfie ready with that story so soon after the crash? I don't believe the wreckage had even been found yet, only that the plane was missing and presumed crashed.

My mother, who came on a preplanned visit from Minnesota a couple of days later, reminded me that it was hunting season. Anyone could have walked through the woods in proper gear without arousing suspicion. Her first thought was that people disguised as hunters had shot the plane down, but DU experts confirmed my guess that there was nothing small enough to be a plausible hunting rifle that could bring down a plane of that size. However...a radio detonator would be easy to carry in and easy to disguise.

[laststeamtrain]

46. LINK: The Book's author Jim Fetzer is a quest on this radio show...

...most weeks.
http://www.blackopradio.com/inc_archives2005.html

[arikara]

48. This is also mentioned in Michael Ruppert's book

Crossing the Rubicon.

His research is convincing.

[Ptah]

59. I wish I had known more about this senator.

Everything I have heard has convinced me that our nation
suffered a tremendous wound with his death.



:patriot:

[Peace Patriot]

75. Wellstone was the Senate leader of the opposition to the war. The Bush

Cartel forced a vote on the Iraq war, a month before the '02 by-elections--and BEFORE the case against Iraq had been made--so as to put Dems in a bad, pro-terrorist light if they voted against it. Many succumbed to this blackmail. Not Wellstone. He led a group of 125 Senators and Congresspeople who voted against the Iraq war (124 more than had voted against the Gulf on Tonkin resolution back in the Sixties), and he had pledged to continue fighting it. The war was by no means a certainty at that time. Nearly 60% of the American people opposed this war, way back in Feb. '03, only a few months after the vote on the war and the '02 by-elections. (I'll never forget that stat--across the board in all polls). Wellstone was a true populist, and a very charismatic guy in the most genuine meaning of the word--brilliant, gutsy, down to earth, real. He WOULD have been the Dem candidate against Bush in '04. No question in my mind. I was surveying potential leaders against the war, and had just discovered him, and I knew that he was IT. He was the man. This was weeks before his plane crash. I can't tell you how crushing it was.

The timing of his death was perfect for the Bush Cartel. It killed the momentum against the war in Congress. I think it scared many Congress critters (who had been anthraxed the previous year). The Cartel was busy cooking up its lies about Iraq during this period, culminating in Colin Powell's 100% pack of lies before the UN in Feb. '03--while the Senate's most articulate spokesperson against the war lay incinerated on a Minnesota hillside.

I've read the book. The evidence is very strong that the plane was done in. There were TWO very experienced pilots flying the plane--pilots who took no chances. They never went up in questionable weather. A phony news report went out immediately after the crash saying the weather was bad. That is bullshit. It was cold--but the plane was state of the art and had de-icers. Its swerve and nosedive crash on approach to the airport makes no sense whatsoever. Other planes were landing with no difficulty.

The FBI COULD NOT HAVE gotten to the crash site as fast as they did, if they hadn't known ahead of time. They took control of the evidence and that was that. There was no public inquiry--which the authors point out is standard for a U.S. Senator.

As with everything else having to do with the Bush Cartel, you have to look at motive and timing--not just opportunity and method, because they have the resources to CREATE the opportunity and the method. They have billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars (most of them OURS!--either stolen directly from public coffers, or by control of our resources, regulations and tax code) with which to purchase whatever covert technology and expertise they need.

My feeling--all in all--is that the pilots were disabled (some kind of time released poison in the air?). There was no hint of trouble; they didn't speak to the ground; they took no action to avoid a nose dive--it's as if they were unconscious or dead--BOTH OF THEM--before the plane crashed. The news report therefore becomes even more suspicious--the immediate attribution to bad weather, before any facts were known--but, if weather had been a problem, there would have been SOME indication on board, and word from the pilots to the ground. There was NONE. No indications of ice on the wings or difficulty of any kind. (And the plane had de-icers!) So, why did the initial news report--which then dominated everyone's perception of the event--attribute it to bad weather right after the crash, BEFORE any facts were known--while the plane was still burning!

And this is the other thing you have to consider, in any Bush Cartel-related event: control of the newsstream.

I remember that news report. I too believed it.

(It's been too long since I read the book--but I seem to recall it was the FBI who put that item into the newsstream--if not them, some other suspicious party).

Time-line of the motive:

Oct. '02: Dems forced to vote on the war, yea or nay, before the case against Saddam had been made. Framing: Dems are patriots, or not--on a faith-based war vote.

Late Oct. '02: Leader of the opposition to the war eliminated--his plane falls out of the air for no apparent reason. All evidence is confiscated. There is no public inquiry.

Nov. '02: Critical by-elections, Dems forced to defend votes against war. Max Cleland, a paraplegic who left three limbs in Vietnam, running for Senate in Georgia, very, very popular candidate, is painted as a friend of Osama bin Laden because he opposed Bush war on Iraq, and mysteriously loses the election (the state had also just been Diebolded).

Feb. '03: Colin Powell disgraces himself before the UN. Nearly 60% of the American people still against the war--but with no champion, no one to speak for them.

March '03: Despite the near unanimous opposition of the entire world, and the opposition of the great majority of Americans, the Bush Cartel invades Iraq, slaughters over 100,000 innocent Iraqis in the initial bombing alone (according to the British doctors' report), takes over its oil fields, and begins imprisoning and torturing hundreds of its citizens--creating a civil war in Iraq, which has now (summer 2005) escalated out of control.

---------

Yes, we should bring our skeptical minds to any allegation of crime. But I think we should stop giving the Bush Cartel any benefit of the doubt.

--------

For those who are following the Fitzgerald investigation of the Plame outing, here is an interesting time-line, on which I will speculate, giving the Bush Cartel no benefit of the doubt...

July 14, 2003: Plame outed (by Novak).

July 18, 2003: David Kelly (Brits chief WMD expert who had been whistleblowing to the BBC about the Brits' "sexed up" WMD intel on Iraq), found dead, under extremely suspicious circumstances; his office and computers searched.

July 22, 2003: Plame/CIA's entire WMD monitoring operation (Brewster Jennings--front company) outed, all projects disabled and all covert agents put at great risk. (--also by Novak).

The Bush Cartel more than likely had Kelly assassinated. My guess as to why: Kelly had stumbled upon or foiled a Bush Cartel plot to plant nukes or other WMDs in Iraq, post-invasion, for the enormous political gain; Plame and Brewster Jennings had some connection to foiling their nasty little plot.

Yeah, there was a long term plan to "get" Wilson, Plame and the CIA, for their opposition to the war, but that plan got greatly accelerated, and was done precipitously and at great risk of treason charges--involving contact with at least SIX reporters, and all top Bush regime officials, in the second week of July '03-- not because of Wilson's article which was published on July 6 (which they fully expected), but rather by something that happened the next day, July 7 (which was unexpected): After Kelly was identified as the BBC whistleblower and interrogated at a "safe house," Tony Blair was informed on July 7 that Kelly "could say some uncomfortable things." COULD say. Not HAD said. (Hutton report.) My guess: Blair then called Bush and warned him that David Kelly knew something far more damaging than "sexed up" intel.

What could Kelly have known, that could have gotten him killed? What were they all waiting for Judith Miller to "find" in Iraq? What would have solved all of Bush's and Blair's political problems in summer '03 (and now)? And what never materialized--to their great embarrassment (and continued, serious political troubles)?

We really must look at motive and timing, in Bush Cartel events. And we must stop giving the Bush Cartel any benefit of the doubt.

-----------

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." --Lord Acton

“A public man has no right to let his actions be determined by particular interests. He does the same thing as a judge who accepts a bribe. Like a judge he must consider what is right, not what is advantageous to a party or class.” — Lord Acton

(--a great guy, Lord Acton.)

[bvar22]

83. Strongly Agree!

see post #54.

Dick Cheney also made a public thinly veiled Death Threat specifically addressing Paul shortly before the IRW vote. I have it saved somewhere, and will find it later today.

Paul Wellstone WAS a charismatic leader of the OPPOSITION, not just to the Iraq War, but also the Corporate TakeOver in DC. Some of the Corporate Owned Democrats hated him for exposing their Corporate ties, and fpr giving the American People an example of a True Leadership.
Paul Wellstone did the "Right Thing" because it was The Right Thing to DO!


A Man of Passion

Paul Wellstone kicking conservative ASS
shortly before his assassination.




Senator Wellstone and his wife Sheila
sitting in the wet grass with the Working Folk at a Labor Day picnic.
He was a Champion for the Working American and the disenfranchised !

How many US Senators do you know that would sit in the grass with common laborers at a Labor Day picnic?

[flyarm]

110. US tried to plant WMDs, failed: whistleblower

US tried to plant WMDs, failed: whistleblower
US tried to plant WMDs, failed: whistleblower
June 21 2004
Daily Times Monitor original story

According to a stunning report posted by a retired Navy Lt Commander and 28-year veteran of the Defense Department (DoD), the Bush administration’s assurance about finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was based on a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) plan to “plant” WMDs inside the country. Nelda Rogers, the Pentagon whistleblower, claims the plan failed when the secret mission was mistakenly taken out by “friendly fire”, the Environmentalists Against War report.
Nelda Rogers is a 28-year veteran debriefer for the DoD. She has become so concerned for her safety that she decided to tell the story about this latest CIA-military fiasco in Iraq. According to Al Martin Raw.com, “Ms Rogers is number two in the chain of command within this DoD special intelligence office. This is a ten-person debriefing unit within the central debriefing office for the Department of Defense.”

Con't-
http://www.blackopradio.com/wmd%20planted.html


FULL STORY:



US tried to plant WMDs, failed: whistleblower

June 21 2004
Daily Times Monitor original story

According to a stunning report posted by a retired Navy Lt Commander and 28-year veteran of the Defense Department (DoD), the Bush administration’s assurance about finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was based on a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) plan to “plant” WMDs inside the country. Nelda Rogers, the Pentagon whistleblower, claims the plan failed when the secret mission was mistakenly taken out by “friendly fire”, the Environmentalists Against War report.

Nelda Rogers is a 28-year veteran debriefer for the DoD. She has become so concerned for her safety that she decided to tell the story about this latest CIA-military fiasco in Iraq. According to Al Martin Raw.com, “Ms Rogers is number two in the chain of command within this DoD special intelligence office. This is a ten-person debriefing unit within the central debriefing office for the Department of Defense.”

The information that is being leaked out is information “obtained while she was in Germany heading up the debriefing of returning service personnel, involved in intelligence work in Iraq for the DoD and/or the CIA. “According to Ms Rogers, there was a covert military operation that took place both preceding and during the hostilities in Iraq,” reports Al Martin Raw.com, an online subscriber-based news/analysis service which provides “Political, Economic and Financial Intelligence”.

Al Martin is a retired Lt Commander (US Navy), the author of a memoir called “The Conspirators: Secrets of an Iran-Contra Insider,” and is considered one of America’s foremost experts on corporate and government fraud. Ms Rogers reports that this particular covert operation team was manned by former military personnel and “the unit was paid through the Department of Agriculture in order to hide it, which is also very commonplace”.

According to Al Martin Raw.com, “the Agriculture Department has often been used as a paymaster on behalf of the CIA, DIA, NSA and others”. According to the Al Martin Raw.com story, another aspect of Ms Rogers’ report concerns a covert operation which was to locate the assets of Saddam Hussein and his family, including cash, gold bullion, jewelry and assorted valuable antiquities. The problem became evident when “the operation in Iraq involved 100 people, all of whom apparently are now dead, having succumbed to so-called ‘friendly fire’. The scope of this operation included the penetration of the Central Bank of Iraq, other large commercial banks in Baghdad, the Iraqi National Museum and certain presidential palaces where monies and bullion were secreted.”

“They identified about $2 billion in cash, another $150 million in Euros, in physical banknotes, and about another $100 million in sundry foreign currencies ranging from Yen to British Pounds,” reports Al Martin.

“These people died, mostly in the same place in Baghdad, supposedly from a stray cruise missile or a combination of missiles and bombs that went astray,” Martin continues. “There were supposedly 76 who died there and the other 24 died through a variety of ‘friendly fire’, ‘mistaken identity’ and some of them—their whereabouts are simply unknown.” Ms Rogers’ story sounds like an updated 21st-century version of Treasure Island meets Ali Baba and the Bush Cabal Thieves, writes Martin.

“This was a contingent of CIA/ DoD operatives, but it was really the CIA that bungled it,” Ms Rogers said. “They were relying on the CIA’s ability to organise an effort to seize these assets and to be able to extract these assets because the CIA claimed it had resources on the ground within the Iraqi army and the Iraqi government who had been paid. That turned out to be completely bogus. As usual.”

“CIA people were supposed to be handling it,” Martin continues. “They had a special ‘black’ aircraft to fly it out. But none of that happened because the regular US Army showed up, stumbled onto it and everyone involved had to scramble. These new Iraqi “asset seizures” go directly to the New US Ruling Junta. The US Viceroy in Iraq Paul Bremer is reportedly drinking Saddam’s $2000 a bottle Napoleon-era brandy, smoking his expensive Davidoff cigars and he has even furnished his office with Saddam’s Napoleon-era furniture.

[mwb970]

62. I was suspicious the moment I heard about the crash.

Nothing that has happened since has made me any less suspicious.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

63. My first thought when hearing of Paul's death... they killed him. n/t

[lonestarnot]

68. ditto!

[Independent_Liberal]

66. Cool!

I knew Wellstone's death was an assassination all along. Thanks for posting this!

[Talismom]

76. You're welcome! I was so excited and felt so validated 'cause I just knew

it too! His death just reinforced the tape holding my tin-foil hat on since selection 2000 and 9/11. I'm so convinced of the fact that this govt. has been taken over by the worst crime syndicate ever!

[The Backlash Cometh]

85. This could have only worked if they KNEW that a Democrat would

not have been picked to fill his spot. So, who appointed his replacement? If you're right, that person would have to be part of the conspiracy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

92. The timing couldn't have been better for the Bushies

According to Minnesota law about candidates who die before an election, if Wellstone had lived one more day, the election would have gone forward with his name on the ballot. It would have been the Carnahan election all over again.

However, since he died the day before that limit (ten days? fifteen days? I forget which), the Dems were required to find a replacement candidate. There was no obvious choice, because Wellstone didn't expect to die, and no one had his fan base. A couple of likely candidates turned down the offer (Sheila Wellstone and Marcia Wellstone Markuson, who both would have been capable stand-ins, were dead, too, remember), and Walter Mondale came out of retirement to run.

Jesse Ventura, governor at the time and an Independent, appointed some nobody Independent friend of his to fill out Wellstone's unexpired term.

[AuntieM1957]

99. Poppie Bush told a reporter once

that if the American people ever learned all the things his family had done - they would be thrown out of the country.

[The Backlash Cometh]

105. Wow! I'd love to see the source for that one.

[bvar22]

93. Not necessarily.

No one could have stepped into Paul's shoes in the few days left before the election. Much of Paul's support was personal. Most Minnesota Greens and many Republican Union members TRUSTED Paul and voted for him. He NEVER broke the TRUST. That TRUST did NOT extend automatically to the Democratic Party!


The RWing slime machine and CorpoMedia (funded by millions of CorpoDollars)) were in full spew. They slimed the memorial service, and ruthlessly attacked Mondale. The apparatus was UP and RUNNING before Paul's body was cold. The ONLY thing they needed was to be absolutely SURE that they killed Sheila Wellstone too.


I never FULLY appreciated the POWER of the Republican Slime Machine and their minions in the CorpoMedia until I observed them in action in St Paul after Wellstone's assassination.

Fritz Mondale was NOT and didn't NEED to be in on it.

[dflprincess]

101. They also manipulated the absentee ballots

Remember, a lot of people had already sent their ballots in. A vote for Wellstone did not automatically translate to a vote for Mondale because it was decided that it couldn't be assumed a Wellstone absentee voter would necessarily pick Mondale over Coleman. All of Coleman's absentee votes were counted - though I don't understand why it could be assumed that an absentee Coleman voter would still pick Coleman over Mondale.

Absentee voters were told that they could revote. However, many were not in the state and didn't have time to obtain and return a new ballot (Lydia Leftcoast's folks were in this situation.)

I know several people who received phone calls telling them that they could still use the absentee ballots that had been sent out prior to Wellstone's death (true). All they had to do was cross out Wellstone's name and write Mondale's beside it if that's who they wanted to vote for. This was not true - doing this would have invalidated the ballot - they needed to write Mondale's name in the space for write-in candidates. However, a day or so before the election Attorney General (a DFLer) did come out and say the clear intent of the voter would have to be considered and ballots marked like in the incorrect manner would be counted. Whether they were or not, we'll never know. One person I know who got this call *69'd it, dialed the number and got Republican headquarters.

[sintax]

91. "When I first met the president..."

"When I first met the President, he called me 'Pablo,'" Wellstone jokes. "That lasted a day or two. Then they started trying to figure out how they were going to get rid of me." - Paul Wellstone

Asbestos was a huge issue and problem (c.f., Dresser Industries, W.R. Grace, Halliburton).
posted by Loriel

This point was very important, into the $millions of importance

[sintax]

94. Remember John Tower?

One former senator, John Tower, also died in a small plane crash. Tower was best known as the chair of the Tower Commission, which investigated the Reagan/Bush era Iran/Contra scandal.

http://www.alternet.org/story/14399/

[sintax]

95. Remember Omar Torrijos?

When I heard Wellstone's plane went down, I immediately thought of Panamanian General Omar Torrijos, who in 1981 thumbed his nose at the Reagan/Bush administration and threatened to destroy the Panama Canal in the event of a U.S. invasion. Torrijos died shortly thereafter when the instruments in his plane failed to function upon takeoff. Panamanians speculated that the U.S. was involved in the death of the popular dictator, who was replaced by a U.S. intelligence operative, Manuel Noreiga, who previously worked with George Bush Senior.

http://www.alternet.org/story/14399/

[sintax]

96. Remember The War on Drugs?

They tried to kill Wellstone when he went to Colombia on a fact finding mission re: "War on Drugs"

Dyncorp

[sintax]

98. Remember Hale Boggs & Jerry Litton & John Heinz?

Another member of a prominent government commission who died in a small plane crash was former Democratic representative and House Majority Leader Hale Boggs. Boggs was best known as one of the seven members of the Warren Commission, which investigated the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. The commission found that Lee Harvey Oswald was acting alone when he killed the president. Boggs, it turns out, had "strong doubts" that Oswald acted alone, but went along with the commission findings. Later, in 1971 and 1972, he went public with his doubts. He was presumed dead after the small plane carrying him and Democratic Representative Nicholas Begich disappeared in 1972.

Democratic Representative Jerry Litton, whose plane crashed the night he won the Democratic nomination for senate in 1976. His Republican opponent ultimately captured the seat from his successor in November.

While an article in the New York Times on Saturday pointed out the danger politicians face due to their heavy air travel schedules, the death of a senator or member of Congress is still relatively rare, with only one other sitting U.S. Senator, liberal Republican John Heinz, dying in a plane crash since World War II. Heinz, who entered office as an outspoken opponent of the Vietnam War, later emerged as a strong proponent of health care, social services, public transportation and the environment. He also urged reconciliation with Cuba. He died when the landing gear on his small plane failed to function, and a helicopter dispatched to survey the problem crashed into his plane.

http://www.alternet.org/story/14399/

[Yupster]

117. Hale Boggs was

Cokie Roberts dad wasn't he?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Yes! The author of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

goes into this story in depth.

[AuntieM1957]

97. Recall how ANGRY the RW was over Paul's funeral service

Declaring that it should be counted as campaign because of the large numbers of Dems and Dem officeholders that were in attendance.

They were livid that he was given such an outpouring of love and respect by all stratas of citizens.

How many of you belong to Wellstone Action - and still support the work that Paul started?

If you don't - please consider it.

http://www.wellstoneaction.com/

[Donailin]

102. I suspected it too.

The moment I heard it.

[ninkasi]

104. Please remember...

there are no depths too low for these people to sink to. There is no atrocity too horrible for them to commit. These are people who value power, and money. Period.

Anything you can think of, any act you can imagine, they are capable of. If this were not true, we would not now be causing the deaths, and horrific injuries, that are being suffered in Iraq, on both sides.

We are not dealing with normal, sane, humans now...we are dealing with sociopaths with positions of power, who will wield that power to seize anything they can, simply because they can. Never, ever, for even a moment, underestimate their capacity for evil.

If Bush were not the son of a wealthy, powerful man, he would be a wino living in a cardboard box under a freeway someplace. If Rumsfeld were not in his position, he would be babbling, between doses of powerful anti-psychotic drugs, in a state runned mental facility somewhere.

The sad truth is that this country has been overtaken by sociopaths. men who have the positions, and the money, to live out their lunatic fantasies, and bring this once great country to oblivion.

[sintax]

107. 100% accurate

What makes me really afraid and what I do not understand about the USA: former Empires tried to let the people in their own country somehow benefit from Imperialism. But although Bush doesn't even offer them that and the economic situation of the middle class, not to mention the situation of the poor in the USA is getting worse, there's still no kind of rebellion.
I simply do not understand this. For decades now, the majority of the Americans do not even have a party in congress that represents their interests, but they simply do not care.

-This from DUer Dirk who lives in Germany



"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop.  Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing.  One day it is over his head.

[PinkyisBlue]

111. Fascist Takeover

This is a very good article that discusses the stages of a fascist takeover and why people go along with it. It was from DU in July:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/07/02_father.html

[sintax]

119. Thank You

Printed it out for reading.

Here is a most amazing book to read Women and Nature (The Roaring Inside Her)-Susan Griffin

and this "The Death of Nature" by Carolyn Merchant which really goes into the history of the ideologies of the patriarchy, science and denial of human biology and natural systems.
Covers the period from 1500-1750 or so, you can really see the forces in their early stage and the rationales for the destruction we bear witness to today.

[ninkasi]

114. I don't understand my fellow Americans, either

The only analogy I have is the following: I was in a grocery store one day, and saw a woman who had to be in her late sixties, early seventies, who still, apparently, thought of the woman she had been 40 years earlier. She had dyed her hair jet black, was wearing short shorts and a halter top (in itself a grotesque sight), had makeup applied so liberally that she more resembled a circus clown than a woman, but who was trying desperately, pathetically, to cling to the illusion of youth, and beauty.

She looked grotesque because she could not face up to the reality of her age, and who she really was. I could tell that she had probably been considered attractive in her youth, and had she gone with her age gracefully, and accepted who she was, would still have been attractive, but as an older woman can be.

I understand, because I am in my sixties. I do not, however, try to appear as anything but what I am, a woman growing older, with grown children, grandchildren, and now, a great grandchild. They are the joy of my life, and I relish every moment of being a grandmother, and great grandmother.

People here in America are clinging to the illusion of what our country used to stand for, and are not willing yet to face up to what we have allowed to happen. We can not yet stand up and admit that we have become a dysfunctional nation, on the wrong path, allowing all that once made us great to be ground into dust under the fascist heels of Bush and his cronies.

When things are too frightening to accept, some people try to ignore them, and ignore reality. Too many of us are like that woman in the store, clinging to her own image of herself, unwilling to come to terms with the reality of what she is now. We still want so much to believe that we are good, and do only good, and are a beacon of hope to the rest of the world, to wake up and face the mirror, and see the horror of what we have become.

If the woman in the store had ever once looked at herself objectively, seen the old woman that she was, and confronted it, she might have been an attractive older woman. Instead, she, like too many of us, is clinging to what used to be. The takeover by the neocons has changed us, and not for the better.

We need to look in a mirror, and see America as she truly is today, and not what we wish she were. We need to see what we are, not what we used to be. We do have the power to take our country back, but enough of us need to be strong enough, and willing enough, to confront reality, and the evil that controls us now, and put us back on the right path.

Paul Wellstone knew, but he died because he did, and because he might have made too many others confront the grotesque image in the mirror of reality, and made us turn the tide against the ones who have taken us over now.

[preciousdove]

115. Amen

"Paul Wellstone knew, but he died because he did, and because he might have made too many others confront the grotesque image in the mirror of reality, and made us turn the tide against the ones who have taken us over now."

I was passing out information at the State Fair just before Paul died and came quietly in through the side door the Labor Hall. Paul was deep in thought and looked very weary and sad, the weight of the world on his shoulders. Almost immediately someone spotted him and called "Paul Wellstone in the house" and the optimistic dynamo I saw at the Capital reappeared. It so reminded me of pictures I have seen of JFK and MLK shortly before they were assassinated. He had already been "threatened" after voting against Iraq. My thoughts were please be careful and safe we need you so badly now.

But so many people were touched by his life and death and have taken up where he left off. They can kill the dreamer but not the dream.

[sintax]

118. Yours is a great post

your analogy is really fine.

Thank you

Seeing things and remaining quiet about them will change nothing, not even ourselves. But saying things - having the courage to testify to our own forbidden knowledge - could be the way the world changes.