OK, let's say Bush was stupid and evil enough to NUKE Iran

[steve2470]

What would REALLY happen in this country ? Massive protests in the streets ? Media clampdown ordered by Karl Rove ? Republicans from Congress telling him to resign ? Or would Americans just shift positions in the proverbial easychair and switch the channel ?

On edit: I changed "invade" to read nuke because I don't think we could invade without nuking first.

[still_one]

1. initially they would switch the channel

later as the realization that he had just destroyed what was left of an already weak economy sinks in, they would start to get concerned.

Unfortunately, it would be too late by then

[still_one]

2. He would succeed in doing what no Muslim could

unite the Shiites and the Sunnis against us

[borlis]

57. Well he did claim to be a uniter, not a divider!!

:rofl:

[KarenInMA]

3. How? With what troops?

The troops are spread so thin now, he'd be drafting my mom to get enough people for a land invasion.

And my mom hates him, so she wouldn't go.

[flakey_foont]

7. Not so much troops

tactical weapons...bombing at first,, blow up some of their strategic sites,, rumor has it that Cheney had a plan on the table to use nukes on Iran in case of another 9/11..........

[kestrel91316]

13. I have donned my tinfoil hat and made the prediction that ................

they will fake a terrorist attack on either LA or SF and use this as the excuse to nuke Iran off the map. I have got a BAD feeling about where things are headed.

Please tell me I am completely wrong, somebody?

[flakey_foont]

14. I would like to think that you are wrong

but something tells me that they are itching for a fight with Iran, and it will take another 9/11 for that to happen....I, too, have a really BAD feeling..which is why it is so critical to get the anti war message out

[steve2470]

16. I sure hope you're wrong.

But after reading the material on 9-11, I'm a bit afraid.

[kestrel91316]

32. I hope I am wrong about LA at least, as that is where I am.

[mcctatas]

4. I'm pretty sure that at least half of America would finally get off their

collective ass and do something...as for the other half, depends on whether or not they get their tax cut repealed or if protest would somehow lead to allowing gay marriage. Why are fundies so obsessed with sex anyway? Methinks they doth protest too much.

[Imagevision]

5. Cheney already had the Pentagon draw up plans for a nuclear attack on Iran

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

9. Why not?

They have as much right to them as you do.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

12. Yeah they do

Who died and made you God?

Not your country, not your decision.

There are at least 50 countries that have, or are about to have nukes...you gonna invade all of them?

The US is also the only country that has ever used them.

So do I worry about Iran having them? No

[Name removed]

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[Jim Sagle]

18. The only way a nuke goes off in LA is if our government SETS it off.

It's called MIHOP. Check into it.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

26. Well your religious nuts

have certainly harmed others.

Maimed, butchered, invaded....

[Name removed]

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[Kool Kitty]

45. I don't think anyone should be trusted with

nuclear weapons. (But that's just me. This is an old terror of mine. I have been terrified of nuclear war since the "duck and cover" days of my long gone girlhood. I almost can't bear to imagine any of the scenarios that have been suggested about using nukes of any sort. It is the stuff of my most horrible nightmares. Maybe that limits my ability to debate this particular issue.)

[steve2470]

48. Thanks for your input

:-) I'll pay you via Paypal (a joke).

[Kool Kitty]

53. Huh?

I don't get it? Or were you replying to another post?

[steve2470]

55. I was implying via a joke that I was paying you for your input nt

[Kool Kitty]

64. Oh, duh. I am a bird-brain.

(But never so charming a bird as your penguin, who I really love.) I think I have "old slow brain" tonight. And you'd never have to pay me. I shoot my mouth off late at night for free.

[Maple]

46. LOL I guess you must be bored eh?

You aren't even trying to debate seriously. :D

Go home. Stay home.

Most of your problems will clear up overnight.

Then you can concentrate on studying instead...which is what you should be doing at your age.

Sorry...I thought you were really into this.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

59. McVeigh has nothing to do with this

and you wouldn't have any 'Islamic terrorists' if you'd mind your own business.

America bashes itself. Trust me, it doesn't need help.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

66. No there is not

and no I've said nothing of the sort.

This isn't going well for you...hit the books. Maybe you'll do better there.

But it's been fun. :D

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

71. I know what I've written

and I think you've even amused yourself with what YOU have written.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

75. It's not a threat. Of any kind. Nite nite

[Yupster]

94. I bet that's true of the Budhist teachers

in southern Thailand who are getting their heads chopped off too.

If they'd just mind their own business, then the Islamic terrorists would leave them alone too.

[steve2470]

54. I don't mean to gang up on Mr. JBowden but I tend to take your side

I think if we got the hell out of the ME, that Iran would calm down enormously and so would Bin Laden and his ilk. We cannot fight fire with fire with these people. They will fight us until WW III breaks out or the Earth expires from a direct comet strike.

[Yupster]

104. There are people Bin Laden hates more than us

and it's the governments of the Middle East.

Bin Laden's ultimate goal is the Dar Es Salaam.

Before he can accomplish that goa, he wants the Islamic world united under a Caliphate.

So, if we were to dissappear tomorrow, Bin Laden would not be satisfied. He would still want to overthrow the governments of the Middle East and set up his unified Muslim World.

Then he still wouldn't be satisfied because then he'd want his "House of Peace."

You can't run away from or hide from guys like Bin Laden. We have to figure out a way to defeat them. Something a little smarter than fighting a smoldering war in Iraq for the next two decades.

[Jim Sagle]

62. Of course they would. But they don't have nukes and aren't getting them

soon.

[Maple]

20. Yes it is

I'm in Canada, and the US has invaded us 5 times. There is still constant interference in our economy and politics.

The US put all the dictators in power in the ME and sold them the weapons. The US put the Shah of Iran in power, and gave him nuclear tech...and he was a butcher to his people.

Maybe if you learned how to play nice in the global sandbox you wouldn't have to worry about nukes anywhere in your country.

Iran is, according to your own Intelligence, ten years away from nukes....so you have ten years to learn how to be friendly instead of belligerant.

Bombing several million people into oblivion for no reason is no way to be friendly.

You nuke Iran, and you'll be down to water pistols in short order.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

29. And where did that get you?

You could have been buddies with the USSR half a century ago.

Opened it up with trade and friendship long ago.

And you don't have to 'deal' with Iran at all. Iran is no threat whatever to you. Go home. Stay home.

Had you done that years ago, there would be no 'terror' to deal with.

They aren't interested in your sex life, or your beliefs.

They want you out of their countries.

They want their own freedom.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

35. Why do you support attacking innocent countries?

Hezbollah is a political party with a militant wing and no interest in you whatever. Hamas has zip interest in you as well.

Neither does the IRA, the Tamil Tigers, the Basques or numerous other groups.

The ME wants their own freedom...and they will use any means to achieve it...since you won't bugger off and keep interfering...but none of them have ICBMs, so stop worrying about LA.

Like I said, if you could get over the 'bull in the china shop' syndrome you could have friends instead of enemies.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

41. WHAT??

That was bin Laden you trained and armed because YOU wanted the Russians out of there! Well next they wanted YOU out of there!

Nobody gives a shit about any international Jewish conspiracy...the Americans are more than enough of a problem!

And btw...Pakistan has nukes. It's Muslim and militant. And the president has had 4 assassination attempts on his life...by the radicals.

AND they are harboring bin Laden.

But what do you worry about? Iran!

As little of a threat to you as Iraq ever was.

You are always looking in the wrong place.

911 was done by the Saudis.

NONE of the above

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

58. No, you were interfering in Afghanistan

and arming and training bin Laden.

The fact he later went after you, reflects your poor judgement.

The rest of the world hears the actual words of bin Laden you know...not the versions you get.

The US supports Israel totally. It does not help create a homeland for the Palestinians.

For this the Muslims are supposed to be grateful??

Think on this....the UN makes a decision one day that there are too many people in China, but the US has lots of land...so they plonk a 'new China' right in the middle of the US. Poof. Millions of em.

What would YOU do?

Before you judge other people...walk a mile in their shoes.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

63. LOL back to studying

Islamic countries won't threaten you, if you don't threaten them.

Only you are making outrageous claims.

Exam coming up? ABS...Anything But Study? :D

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

68. Nope sorry...did not

and that's a really lame old gimmick.

Hasn't worked in eons.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

72. Hit the books

You lost this round several posts back. :rofl:

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

79. Kay...bye

[TheWatcher]

101. That's probably the closest you have come to intelligence in this entire

thread.

A ray of hope. Even if it was sarcasm.

[Yupster]

105. I think the Russians had it right

When they decided to take Germany's land after World War II, they removed the entire civilian population, moved in Poles and Russians, changed the names of the the towns and cities, and poof, it's done.

No protests, no terrorism.

Konigsberg is now Kaliningrad, Breslau is now Wroclau, Stettin is now Szeczin, and the world never made a peep.

[Yupster]

95. So do Islamic terrorists bear no guilt

in the terrorism going on in the Philippines, India, Kashmir, Thailand, Sudan, Nigeria, Chechnya, Israel, etc.

Is it really all our fault?

The Islamic fundamentalists are just innocent bystanders who are being set upon by the evil Budhists in Thailand, the evil Christians in the Philippines, the evil Jews in Israel and the evil Hindus in India?

The Islamic fundamentalists bear no responsibility at all?

Also, since I never learned much Canadian history, please tell me the five times the US has invaded Canada. Canada has only been independant for less than 100 years hasn't it?

Or are you counting the times before you were an independant country?

In that case do we get to count the times we've been invaded from Canada before you were independant, or is this another case where the bad stuff only counts against America?

[FourStarDemocrat]

74. We've got 3 years left of Bush. help work to get the Repubs out in '06..

and then I predict that we will be on our way to solving this crisis diplomatically. There have been many more dire nuclear standoffs, between Pakistan and India for example, and they were able to turn the corner. The problem is that Bush himself is the center of the 'axis of evil' to the rest of the world. Iran will not negotiate with him. We have to pressure the the Democrats in Congress to stall what this administration may want to do (bomb them, etc) and wait till he's out to act.

[Yupster]

106. I'd hardly call the India-Pakistan situation

a success.

Pakistan is now nuclear-armed with a dictator who heads an incredibly unstable government which could be replaced by a fundamentalist one at any minute.

I don't know what corner we turned there?

More like crossed our fingers and hoped for the best.

[FourStarDemocrat]

112. Well, the fact that both countries were close to the point of war

on at least a few occasions in recent years, and both have the bomb...then their crisis were diffused by exhaustive diplomacy says something. I'm well aware of Pakistan's political situation, and it is not far from India's instability- a country that also has the bomb , has previously said that they too would use it if it came down to it, and has it's own problems with attempts by its own religious fundamentalists to gain greater control.

[driver8]

88. Oh yeah...our "intelligence" is so trust worthy...

How you could believe anything that our government tells you after the cluster fuck in Iraq is beyond me.

Shit, let's just bomb the whole damn world because they "might" develop nuclear weapons. Pakistan has them...are they a treat? North Korea is closer than Iran...why don't we bomb them? China? Make it a parking lot. India? Hasta la vista! While we're at it, we might as well take care of Israel, too.

I suppose the next thing we are going to hear from our government is that Iran is trying to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger, and that we know where the WMDs are? "They're in Tehran, and north and south and east and west of there."

Does anyone know of a deserted island where no other people live? I would like to buy it immediately.

[driver8]

84. Not really following the logic here...

Our government preaches against "the terraists" (Iran, Iraq) and actively supports other terrorist organizations (Israel). Many of our "religious nuts" think that people in the middle east need to be destroyed.

Are we going to nuke every country in the fucking world as soon as they start developing nuclear weapons? Who made us the nuclear policemen of the world??

So, according to your logic, we "nuke" Iran as a preventive measure...kind of like invading Iraq was a "preventive" measure??

WTF is going on in this country...are you completely insane? Starting WWIII is a good idea as a preventive measure?

Lord help us...

[Yupster]

93. I think we'd get warning

because Tel Aviv would get nuked before we would.

I also believe that if Iran's nuclear facilities are attacked, it will be Israel doing the attacking, not the US. And I wouldn't blame Israel for doing it either.

[Kool Kitty]

19. I kinda think that we shouldn't have them, either,

seeing as we were the only ones to actually drop them on another country. I don't think ANY country should have these weapons, they are a crime against humanity. But since we have them, I don't believe that we have the right to tell any other country what they should or should not have.

[Name removed]

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[Kool Kitty]

40. No, of course I don't think we would have any rights

if there is a nuclear attack here in the US. I'm not a fool. I didn't think the question was one of rights. I just have a lot of questions about where this nuclear attack would come from.

[Yupster]

97. If there is a nuclear attack on the west

my guess is that it would happen to Israel, and no one would claim responsibility for it.

[Yupster]

96. It would be great if no one had them, but

you can't get rid of them now. It's just not realistic.

Nuclear non-proliferation has been a major goal of ours for a couple of generations now.

Is it now a dead issue?

I guess maybe we've reached the point where we just throw up our hands and say anyone who wants some can get them.

We really can't stop them. No country is strong enough to be the world's policeman.

[pnorman]

22. But "An Armed Society Is A POLITE Society"

At least what I hear from so many supporters of Dubya.

pnorman

[Maple]

Well you can tell em

Canadians are excessively...even overly... polite, and we are definitely not an armed society.

[JanusAscending]

17. WHAT???

I just can't believe you said that!!! WHO ARE WE TO TELL OTHER COUNTRIES WHAT TO DO, OR NOT DO???? If America is breaking the Nuclear Proliferation treaty by building new "Bunk Buster" nukes, and if Bush is planning on building more nuclear reactors for electrical power, how then, can we tell other Nations that they can't do the same? Israel, India, Pakistan, Russia, China, and perhaps North Korea already have nuclear capability!! Sure it's SCARY that any of us have this God awful power. Maybe if EVERY country had this power, we'd have a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, and no one would dare use it FIRST!! We used it on Japan to end WWII, but I wonder, if they had the same bomb, whether we would have though 2 or 3 times about using it? In Japans case, they hit us first at Pearl Harbor, so we did'nt "pre-empt" them. If we were to use it against Iran, with no prior threat to us, it will start WWIII, and perhaps even Armaggeden. All of Islam would call for a "HOLY WAR" The way things have been going since Bush took office......I'm more frightened, and threatened by him and his "wackos" than I am of Iran or N. Korea combined!!!! Think again about what you said, please!:rant:

[Kool Kitty]

21. Good one, discerning christian.

And welcome. :hi:

[JanusAscending]

83. Thank you and

:hug: back at ya!

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

37. Ordinary airstrikes wouldn't work

Iranians have brains too...and their facilities are waaaaay underground.

You can't just invade Iran. Even in an alternate reality that's not going to happen.

'Some sort of arrangement' means you get to tell them what to do...that won't work.

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

42. There are 350 M Americans

There are over a billion Muslims.

Fancy your chances after making them REALLY mad?

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

61. 1 billion against 350 M

isn't a suicide mission.

It's a cakewalk

[Name removed]

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[Maple]

80. And you drop them ....where?

On who?

There is no 'enemy'

There is no 'battlefield'

There are no 'uniforms'

There is no 'country'

They are everywhere and nowhere.

Ever try to nail jello to a tree?

[Yupster]

107. I don't really know what you're saying here?

Are you trying to judge a theoretical war matchup between the Muslim world and the United States?

Kind of like a Superman versus The Incredible Hulk thing?

Seems kind of silly, but if you wanted to do that, I wouldn't think the population would be very important to the equation.

It would be more like World War II where Hitler declared war on the US, and all his generals threw up their hands in confusion and said "how are we supposed to fight them?"

They had no way to get to the US, while we could bomb their cities to dust even without nukes.

So, if there's an imaginary war between the Muslim World and the USA, for all the marbles, and the 1964 Mickey Mantle thrown in, how would it go?

The US would I guess just bomb away until the other side sought peace pretty much like Japan did.

The Muslim World would ...... I don't know what they'd do. Their large population wouldn't be a particular benefit since it couldn't be supplied or moved in any way that they could hurt us.

I guess they would burn down their oil fields. That would be something. They would try to slip terrorists into places to blow up markets and schools, but that wouldn't be militarily significant.

So I guess I don't know what you're saying when you say 1 billion versus 350 million would be a cakewalk?

Probably should have just shrugged it off as a weird post without meaning.

The theoretical war matchup is an odd exercise to go through to begin with.

How many homers would Babe Ruth have hit if he had to face African-American pitchers, and quality relief pitchers? How many would he have hit if he would have used steroids?

I guess these theoretical matchups are interesting, but kind of weird when talking about wars between billions of people.

[JanusAscending]

81. PARDON MY "FRENCH"

But, your last two posts seem strangely familiar. Kinda' like something GW would say when jumping into a bottomless pit with no parachute and no plan and saying "now, how do I get out of this mess". Why can't you just think before opening your mouth and inserting your foot? You're talking just like George F***ing Bush thinks!!:banghead:

[Yupster]

99. I agree

The Us does not have the capability to invade and occupy Iran. A ground invasion is not going to happen.

What might happen could be...

1. airstrikes on nuke facilities, maybe even using battlefield nukes
2. airstrikes coupled with raiding forces that blow up buildings
3. seizure of oil lines to hold hostage

What I think is the most likely scenario is that Israel attacks Iran's facilities using airstrikes.

What I haven't heard of in a while though is that there was a group of European countries (France, Germany, Russia) who were taking the lead in stopping Iran from getting nukes. Does anyone know if this is still happening? Are there negotiations going on?

[Yupster]

98. I think the risk of a country like Iran nuking the USA

is way past remote.

The more likely threat would be a nuke going off somewhere and no one saying where it came from.

Then deterrance doesn't work because there's no one to hit back.

We live in very dangerous times.

[Stirk]

87. For the record, I agree with you.

I certainly don't want to see Iran get nuclear weapons.

It's unfortunate that the Bush Administration has so strongly encouraged nuclear proliferation. Their policies send a very clear message to the world: get nukes and we'll deal (North Korea), disarm and we'll just take what you've got (Iraq).

Playground bully politics.

(I'm not supporting the idea of nuking Iran, of course- that's just ludicrous. There's no justification for a move like that).

[FloridaPat]

8. I would bet not another drop of foreign oil comes to the US. That

would be the quickest way to destroy us. Fromthewilderness.com suggest everyone in the world will send their nuclear bombs to us because not one is going to put up with a drop in the quantity of oil available.

Should * invade Iran, I think every repub and every Democrat that voted for the invasion or funded it or whatever should be tried and hanged for treason. Actually, I think that should happen to everyone who voted to give * the authority to invade Iraq, but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

[Yupster]

108. If the world stopped sending us oil, it

might be the best thing to ever happen to us.

It would force us to develop alternative fuels which could be done very quickly if needed.

Germany did it during wartime and very quickly.

I think the world would be doing us a favor.

[Smirking_Chimp]

11. according to Scott Ritter it's already begun...

The US War with Iran has Already Begun
by Scott Ritter

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0620-31.htm

"But Americans, and indeed much of the rest of the world, continue to be lulled into a false sense of complacency by the fact that overt conventional military operations have not yet commenced between the United States and Iran.

As such, many hold out the false hope that an extension of the current insanity in Iraq can be postponed or prevented in the case of Iran. But this is a fool's dream.

The reality is that the US war with Iran has already begun. As we speak, American over flights of Iranian soil are taking place, using pilotless drones and other, more sophisticated, capabilities.

The violation of a sovereign nation's airspace is an act of war in and of itself. But the war with Iran has gone far beyond the intelligence-gathering phase."

(snip)

"Most Americans, together with the mainstream American media, are blind to the tell-tale signs of war, waiting, instead, for some formal declaration of hostility, a made-for-TV moment such as was witnessed on 19 March 2003.

We now know that the war had started much earlier. Likewise, history will show that the US-led war with Iran will not have begun once a similar formal statement is offered by the Bush administration, but, rather, had already been under way since June 2005, when the CIA began its programme of MEK-executed terror bombings in Iran."

[Yupster]

102. Before we go to war with Iran, you'll be able to tell

because it will take a massive buildup much greater than the one that happened before Iraq.

I can't see how we could do it without a draft.

I have no doubt that we are overflying their territory with drones.

We overflew Soviet territory for 40 years and never went to war.

[steve2470]

23. With all due respect, I think we need to get back to my original question

I'm not psychic and you're probably not either. I would HOPE that the Republicans with an ounce of IQ would demand his resignation and Cheney's also, and that Americans would be demonstrating in huge masses outside both of the White Houses :puke:

[Maple]

25. So...how are things going in Aruba?

At least, that would be the question until the bovine excrement hit the air redistributor.

[steve2470]

27. LOL yeah....

When the cable TV goes down because of technical glitches, they might actually pick up the newspaper and say " Golleeeeeeeee, we just NUKED IIIIIIIII-RAN, how about that ?"

[roguevalley]

34. HUGE protests. Don't mistake the quietude for acquiessance.

Remember, there are more against Iraq than for. The polls poll down and if he did this, I would predict revolution. In my state, the pugs used to bloviate EVERYWHERE. There has been NO, repeat NO commentary in over a year about politics in every place they used to be talked over around
here. Very, VERY strange.

[steve2470]

36. That is great news indeed, I would HOPE we Americans would stage a

revolution, hopefully a bloodless one.

[Cleita]

44. He is stupid and evil enough to nuke Iran.

Now what is your problem? Everyone, who could, took to the streets worldwide, before the invasion of Iran, but it wasn't stopped. They didn't care. They had a military that HAD to obey the Commander-in- chief. I think this is where our problem is. We have to prove this person took the position of the Presidency with cheating on the 2000 election.

[steve2470]

47. I was just asking a speculative question of how the country would react

to that possibility. I hope the Chimp in Charge and his Evil Darth Vader would be thrown out of the government via resignation but I have no clue in this environment if that is possible.

[Maple]

50. I doubt there would be

ANY reaction until the chickens came home to roost.

Except on DU of course.

And then, who knows what the reaction would be in the public at large?

March on the WH? I doubt it.

A retreat into plastic and duct tape and high poll numbers for Bush? Well judging by recent history, yeah very likely.

[steve2470]

77. Jeez, if we reacted that way, we are lost forever.

I might have to PM you about Canadian exile lol

[Maple]

82. I agree

and I have a spare bedroom. :D

[Yupster]

110. It depends on what you mean by nuke also

Do you mean nuke cities like Tehern and kill a million people, or do you mean use a nuclear bunker buster that tunnells 2000 feet underground before destroying a bunker and surrounding buildings?

I think there would be vastly different reactions from one to the other.

[steve2470]

111. The first situation nt

[halsaxby]

51. Get real...

If BushCo nukes Iran, initially the public will be shocked. But after 2 weeks, if gas is under $5/gallon and their teevees still work, they will accept it. After a month, they will forget that Iraq and Iran are two separate places (if they ever knew that).

If BushCo wants fool the majority right off the bat, they'll start spelling Iraq and Iran as Iranq.

[titoresque]

91. I agree

unfortunately the only way were going into Iran is if we're nuked first, possibly no nukes just major bombing.....imploding buildings..that sort of good 'ol fashioned "Bring it on!" type Bush shoot'em up, smoke 'em out, shin-dig! Yeehaw! An inside job.

So buy yourself some Sodium Iodite, (google) you may need it.

[steve2470]

85. For the record, the sooner we get the f out of the ME, the sooner

we solve our terrorism and Iran and Iraq, etc... problem. Bin Laden might actually thank us in a strange, grotesque sort of way.

[Maple]

86. I'll agree with that

[steve2470]

89. Does that report about Cheney ordering battle plans have any validity ?

When I first read that, I almost ruined my tighty whities.

[Stirk]

90. I honestly don't think Bush's base would so much as blink.

Bush could nuke every city in Iran, and his supporters would find some way to call it self defense. It doesn't have to make sense.

[stevietheman]

92. Military coup or public lynching

As far as I'm concerned, if Bush does this, I'll join any group that aims to physically remove him from the White House, no matter what the cost to me (I will consider this my military service). We must do anything and everything to avoid the WWIII that attacking Iran will trigger.

[wli]

100. doubtless a nuclear MIHOP will be used as a pretext for it n/t

[Horse with no Name]

103. They would shut down the media and information

before they did it and we wouldn't know about it.

[Rex]

109. Nothing will happen until the good citizens are forced to survive

a nuclear holocaust. Consumers never stir much.