I always liked Luckovich, but has he plagiarized? a DUer

[SoCalDem]

edited to add question mark..
edited to add gatorboy's , since people often do not click on all links in a thread

I agree that it's an iconic meme, but the cartoon of it was drwan here first, and was online and attributed to gatorboy first :)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. And Gatorboy's version is better, in addition to being the original.

[SoCalDem]

2. Gatorboy's version was way better too (pic here)

[Walt Starr]

3. Yup, clearcut case of plagarism n/t

[SoCalDem]

4. Gatorboy's was even made into a tee shirt worn by protestors

...at least I think it was.. Someone owes gatorboy some MONEY :)

any lawyers awake?

[billbuckhead]

9. Lukovich's mimics the original Chinese picture almost exact

I don't think Mike plagiarized.

[BlueEyedSon]

23. Where can I get a tshirt????

[mopaul]

5. this happens a lot

i see it all the time, a dozen cartoonists coming up with the same idea. but i agree, mike's came in third or fourth at least, and gatorboy's is better.

[Lerkfish]

15. yup, it happens a lot because certain issues have about 3-4 ways to be

played, that are good. So independently good cartoonists will hit on the same idea.

Its not like music: there are only a handful of visual archetypes that would go with particular situations. I agree , though, that I liked gatorboy's better.

[Crankie Avalon]

6. Did you see that in your local paper?

Write in to them and let them know it's plagiarized work. Give them a copy or link of the original.

[SoCalDem]

7. It's online at Slate

..but he's in many papers.. a syndicated columnist.

[knitter4democracy]

8. It's been a popular meme, though.

He might have been stewing over it before he saw anything from anyone else.

I'm just saying plagiarism on something that popular is hard to prove.

[Gildor Inglorion]

10. "Imitation is the sincerest of flattery"? Maybe it's a tribute

O8)

[Bark Bark Bark]

11. Plagarism? Or Coincidence?

Have solid proof before flinging out accusations.

The image of one person standing firm in front of a tank is now an iconic image burned into our collective memory; it's almost reflexively simple--even lazy--to slap different names on the person and the tank to represent ANY instance of bravery in the face of overwhelming power.

Any number of people could've thought this up independently of the others.

[Ian David]

13. Agreed. I vote for coincidence. n/t

[mcscajun]

27. Agreed...the association is 'in the ether'

and many minds could be making the comparison simultaneously.

[Ian David]

12. You mean this?

[SoCalDem]

14. Those are the pics I posted

:)

[Divernan]

16. When in comes to criticizing *, there is NO plagiarism,

as far as I'm concerned. We at DU WANT to inform and influence the media. We know that the website is monitored by the news media. I sincerely hope that, whether consciously or subconsciously, any cogent analysis, arguments, critiques of Bush and his minions that a reporter or cartoonist may see here will in fact inspire their work. Given that they have larger and much more politically diverse audiences than our membership, it is a VERY GOOD thing when they use our ideas or images.

As for this particular instance, I heard people compare Mrs. Sheehan to the Tianamen Square imagery before I saw any of the various cartoons.

The fat cat GOPers luuuuuve to drive around with their red, white & blue "THE POWER OF PRIDE" bumper stickers. Let's not fall into that personal pride trap at DU. The goal is to wake the American people up to the dangers/damages of Bush, not to further the cartoon or writing careers of DUers. If one of ours is good enough to get syndicated and influence hundreds of thousands of viewers/readers, go for it. But don't post your stuff here and then start whining if the theme of it is picked up elsewhere. If somebody steps on my foot on the way to vote against Rick Santorum, I'm not going to press assault charges.

[SoCalDem]

18. It wasn't "my" stuff..

:hi:.. How about stepping on MANY people..we need Ricky boy OUTTA there :)

[Divernan]

20. I didn't mean you, SoCalDem, but a generic "you",ie. anyone

I'm trying to head off at the pass people thinking that if they posted some good political analysis, etc.here on DU, and saw their thoughts repeated by a columnist, that they should start thinking about suing for plagiarism. I think columnists who repeat ideas they get here are the good ones and we (all of us, not just you and me) shouldn't waste our energy worrying about pride of ownership of intellectual product.

Again, no criticism meant of you - you are one of my favorite long time DU posters.

[SoCalDem]

21. no offense taken

:).. :loveya: too :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Not plagiarism: political cartoons are weird that way

They often have the same design. Sometimes the occasion just suggest similar ideas to people.

[shadowknows69]

19. gator's cartoon buries that one anyway

he's a better technical artist by the looks of it and he doesn't need to identify that it's cindy because he's captured her iconic look perfectly.

as far as the P word. I have to vote great minds think alike as well. It's a fairly obvious choice of historical moments to reference.

[Dora]

22. Isn't this a riff on Tiannamen Square?

The image evokes photograph of the student standing in front of the tanks at Tiannamen Square. Because that photograph was widely distributed and easily recognized, I'm not surprised that more than one cartoonist has used it to illustrate the Sheehan protest.

It's all good to me.

[Redstone]

24. I concur. It's a big country with lots of people in it, so

the idea could certainly have popped up in several people's heads independently.

Dammit.

Redstone

[Dora]

28. Ah, but no dammit at all...

IMHO, in these years of conflict between Left and Right, we on the left should try to refrain from quibbles about intellectual property and copyright and who-wrote-what-when.

I think members of the Right probably plagiarize each other all the time and nobody complains. Why? Because it gets the message out.

We could take a lesson.

Happy Monday to you.

[Redstone]

30. Well, I do see your point, but can't agree that copyright is a "quibble."

Your point seems valid given that gatorboy made his cartoon freely distributable.

Howsomever: Money issues aside, plagiarism is sleazy if intentional (I'm not saying it is in this case). It's dishonest (again, if intentional), no matter the cause.

I do not believe there was any plagiarism in this case, but there's no excuse for stealing someoone else's work when it does happen.

It's theft, pure and simple (again, if intentional).

PS: Also, I don't think you're right about the RWers being casual about copyright. Let old rushbag or o'Lielly or Ann the Man put anything from the other's books into their own published sludge, and you'll see some fireworks, believe me.

Redstone

[Pithlet]

25. I think that's an idea that two people could come up with

simultaneously, easily. I'd say it's coincidence. Gatorboy's is great, but there is a difference between posting one's work on a message board and having it published. There are thousands of posts every day on liberal political message boards and blogs, and it would be easy to miss.

[Midlodemocrat]

26. I think it is possible that two well informed people could

come up with the same idea.

Also, the fact that Lukovich's is in the MSM doesn't hurt.

I do like gatorboy's version better however.

[jpgray]

29. Doesn't look that way to me

The idea isn't so unique that no one else could come up with it, and the composition is way different. Luckovich's cartoon is more directly based on the video footage from Tiananmen Square--the POV is the same, the tanks are modeled after t-59s, etc.