Oh holy shit. Strap yourselves in, folks.

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/15/international/middleeast/15cnd-iraq.html?hp&ex=1124164800&en=18fb25977b41a874&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Facing Deadline, Iraqis Consider Bypassing Sunnis on Constitution
By DEXTER FILKINS
Published: August 15, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 15 - Iraqi leaders remained deadlocked over major issues in the country's new constitution, raising the possibility they would fail to meet today's deadline and push the country toward a political crisis. Today, they delayed a session on whether to approve the document by two hours.

With several questions unresolved, Shiite leaders have said that they were considering asking the National Assembly to approve the document without the agreement of the country's Sunni leaders. Such a move would probably provoke the Sunnis, whose participation in the political process is seen as crucial in the effort to marginalize the Sunni-dominated guerrilla insurgency.

(snip)

If the deadline is not met nor the interim constitution successfully amended, the law appears to require dissolving the National Assembly and holding new elections. Shiite and Kurdish leaders said late Sunday that they were discussing that possibility, but said that they hoped to avoid it.

...more...

Great. Cut out the Sunnis, or hold new elections. Fantastic. Splendid. Great work, George. There's going to be a lot more dead people before this little speed bump is crossed.

[KarenInMA]

1. They can have our constitution, we're not using it anyway.

[Hobarticus]

4. Not sure whether to laugh or cry at that one...

Probably end up doing a bit of both.

[LaurenG]

9. My thought exactly nt

[endarkenment]

8. ROFLMAO. nt.

[DemonFighterLives]

23. Yeah, dubby has discarded ours

When does our civil war start BTW?

[electropop]

49. Ouch!

Well, it's a "quaint" old document, just like the Geneva Conventions.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Bingo. Right on the mark.

[Ladyhawk]

59. I spat all over my monitor, laughing. :) Pretty sad, though, in actuality

[sepia_steel]

69. Clever. Hilarious

and made me teary-eyed.

It's horrible. I feel hopeless sometimes.

[ibegurpard]

2. Well, there's always Iran.

eom

[MuseRider]

10. You mean

the third time is the charm?

[Richardo]

3. Break out the blue and gray uniforms

It's Civil War time.

[matcom]

5. civil war anyone?

nah, never happen :sarcasm:

[Imagevision]

34. Civil war? send more troops or pull them out??

Commanders on the ground said if they send out less US. soldiers well obviously less will be killed and/or maimed.

So instead they're assigning 1-2 troops to lead per groups of 6-20 Iraqi soldiers.

If Bush were to command the troops to jump off a cliff, would they be court martialed for refusing an order?

[SteppingRazor]

6. Hey, freedom's on the march! Now shut up!

Don't you realize that if new elections are called for, it will only provide another FABULOUS, purple-stained-finger photo op?!

Jesus, what are you, with the terrorists or something? :evilgrin:

[RandomKoolzip]

7. Remember when the big goal was having them elections in January?

We were told everything would be different in Iraq after that.

[benburch]

11. We will be in the middle of a vice that is closing.

If you think 1900 dead Americans was bad... Wait til you see THAT.

[enigma000]

12. Or they could vote for more time

Three-fourths majority could amend the TAL to give the Iraqi officials more time. If they fail to approve the draft constitution or give themselves more time by midnight Iraq time the government falls. New election & more purple fingers.

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html


Article 3.

(A) This Law is the Supreme Law of the land and shall be binding in all parts of Iraq without exception. No amendment to this Law may be made except by a three-fourths majority of the members of the National Assembly and the unanimous approval of the Presidency Council. Likewise, no amendment may be made that could abridge in any way the rights of the Iraqi people cited in Chapter Two; extend the transitional period beyond the timeframe cited in this Law; delay the holding of elections to a new assembly; reduce the powers of the regions or governorates; or affect Islam, or any other religions or sects and their rites.

[katinmn]

20. The Bush Regime doesn't want that.

The Iraqis asked for first a 6-month and then a 30-day extension.

US occupiers said no.

[SnowGoose]

48. Welcome to DU enigma!

You seem to be pretty well informed - thanks for sharing your information.

[enigma000]

53. Thanks. Good to be here

I got the website from a DUer who goes by the user name "jody" in an earlier thread.

[Mnemosyne]

65. But will they be told what they are voting for?!

Remember, many that voted had no clue who the candidates even were! Of course, I'm not so sure WE ever really know either.:shrug:

Welcome enigma! :hi:

[SunDrop23]

13. Looks like the Shiites have discovered the recess appointment.

[KarenInMA]

15. ROFL!! Or, ya know.. crying..

[Mnemosyne]

66. Iraq will seem like recess if we go into Iran, imo.

And that WAS a good one! lol

[endarkenment]

14. Well this fits right in with the

Final This Time We Really Mean It Reason Why We Are Killing Iraqis.

See - it is totally screwed up in Iraq and we can't leave until we've sorted this mess out.

[Redstone]

16. My, my, what a suprise. And here we thought that after we invaded, the

Iraqis would be falling all over themselves to whip up a constitution copied directly from ours, because they'd be so deleriously happy at having us bomb their cities that they'd desire nothing more in life than to be exactly like us.

Geez. Don't those people have ANY gratitude?

Redstone

[IndyOp]

45. The last time someone copied the US Constitution

...or at least started theirs with "We the People" it was the leader of North Korea (Vietnam?) - it didn't seem to make the necessary positive impression on the US.

(Sorry I can't double-check whether it was K or V. I just moved and my copy of "People's History of the United States" is still in a box somewhere!)

[Redstone]

50. I think it was Uncle Ho. He liked America a lot when he was young.

Redstone

[IndyOp]

57. I think you are right --

I began to really 'get it' about US military and financial motives when I got to this chapter... Here was someone who was copying the best bits of the US Constitution into his own country's and the US squashed him. So much for Democracy-building, on with the Democracy smashing.

[Jackpine Radical]

62. It was Ho Chi Minh.

He wrote the Vietnamese Constitution based as much as possible on his memory of the US one, which he couldn't get a copy of at the time.

In the 1920's he spent some time in the States. I maybe vaguely recall he was a dishwasher on Staten Island for a while or something like that.

[Mnemosyne]

68. Nothing like dead family to make you feel like

writing a constitution!

When will our gov ever stop sticking their noses where they don't belong?
I learned that as a child and learned it even more as an adult.
I also have learned to be grateful for what I have.
Common sense is not.

You usually sound like a man with common sense Redstone.:yourock:
Why is it soooo rare anymore? Or has it always been and I just didn't notice it? Have tried to pay attention. :shrug:

:hi:
V

[Hubert Flottz]

17. Forcing "Democracy" on Iraq...

is like trying to push a chain down the street. People see the sham government in Afghanistan and they know the leader Bushco installed in Afghanistan, is an oil company puppet! The people in Iraq are not fooled either!

[VelmaD]

18. Crap Crapity Crap!

So basically the choice is between a fundamentally flawed constitution that doesn't protect the basic rights of the vast majority of the Iraqi population...or (more) chaos? Oh goodie.

[katinmn]

19. The Iraqis had asked for first a six-month extension,

then a 30-day extension to work out some very importnt disagreements on THEIR constitution, including provisions regarding the status of women.

The US occupiers told them "No."

Looks like the * Regime has foisted yet another no win situation on the Iraqis -- and us. :-(

[jbnow]

33. Why was the US opposed to extension?

A constitution, even without such diverse groups, is no minor undertaking. I was baffled when I heard we opposed even 30 days...what is it we stand to gain?

[NewJeffCT]

38. Bush would lose face if they did't have a constitution on time

Or something like that...

[endarkenment]

41. because the new theme is:

It's too fucked up to leave.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. It took us 12 years to craft a constitution -

and we were not dealing with either foreign occupation or internal insurgency at the time. And even then we didn't get it quite right, or there would not have been so many amendments since then.

Of course, it takes longer when using quill pens.

[kurtyboy]

70. Not attacking YOU, NCevilDUer, but I'm so fucking tired of

Righties pointing out how tough it was for our founders to bang out a workable Constitution, as if the situation in Iraq was comparable. The comparison falls to pieces right from jump.

Our founders had fought a war for independence, shoulder to shoulder, against a government that ruled from 3000 miles away. They gathered in Philidelphia to peacefully improve a clearly dysfunctional set of Articles of Confederation (Articles the Iraqis cannot even approach). They had their differences, but they collectively wanted success and compromise.

Iraq's "founders" are IN COLLUSION with a government that rules from 5000 miles away. The difference between the two situations could not be more stark! They cannot ever get to the same kind of compromise that our founders did because they have not been through the wringer together. They (the Iraqi framers) are products of a process OUR arrogant system chose for them, and the general population in Iraq could give two shits in a brown paper bag about the "work" they are doing to craft a Constitution.

On Edit: Oh yeah! The Brits weren't imposing any deadlines on our framers either--imagine how well things would have worked if that had been the case....

And you are right--our founders didn't have the luxury of word-processors and instant communications. How fucked up can Iraq get?

(A long-time friend of mine always advised against asking if it could rain any harder, because it assuredly would...)

[KyndCulture]

21. there is NOTHING good about this...

1900 dead Americans was just a drop in the bucket when this has it's full effect. The occupiers are now caught in the middle, we are caught in the middle.

This is exactly what happens when you go in guns blazing without a freaking plan for diplomacy. Dammit.

[Tsiyu]

22. "If it don't fit, force it."

Idiot logic. My heart goes out to the people of Iraq and to our soldiers.

This whole situation is bullshit.

[DemonFighterLives]

26. Yeah get a bigger hammer

That is the big coat, small hat philosophy.
:nuke:

[Miss Chybil]

24. They already missed the deadline and said they wouldn't have the

draft until the end of the month.

LBN
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1702564

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Oh boy this will be fun

NOT

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Oh yes

It's such a success. Thanks for starting a civil war George!

[SoCalDem]

28. Didn't we all know that a civil war would be the endgame?

:(..

Let's hope that our soldiers are not still stuck in the middle when it happens for real:(

[lala_rawraw]

29. Someone should tell the president to get off his bike for five min...

And maybe call the office, eh?

[In_The_Wind]

30. It's already been a bumpy ride with too much bloodshed!

I don't want one more drop of American blood shed on foreign soil!


I don't want to see a war of any kind!

[dweller]

31. another 'Mission Accomplished' ... n/t

:eyes:

dp

[marions ghost]

32. no problem

the US is in the process of "shedding that unreality that dominated in the beginning" ...everything will be OK...
:argh:

[rog]

35. Will ... Juan Cole has a post about this today.

Juan Cole's Informed Comment: http://www.juancole.com

Now They're moving the Goalpost

Every indication is that a final text of Iraq's permanent constitution just won't be reported out of the drafting committee in time to have parliament vote on it on Monday. Now Iraqi politicians are talking about having parliament amend the interim constitution to allow a delay of say, two weeks. In fact, according to the Transitional Administrative Law, if the committee did not ask for an extension by August 1 (which it was pressured not to do by the Bush administration); and if the parliament did not approve the new constitution by August 15; then parliament should be dissolved.

-----snip quotes from the interim constitution-----

... according to the existing interim constitution, the plan of extending the deadline at this late date is clearly unconstitutional, and parliament should instead be dissolved and new elections held. (They have to be held no later than December, but could be held, e.g., in September or October in principle).

In fact, holding new elections will require another lockdown of the whole country, perhaps the addition of a division or 20,000 American troops to what is there now, another 3-day curfew on all vehicle traffic, and all the logistics these steps would entail. In other words, even if they interim constitution was followed, new elections probably could not be held before November at the earliest.

-----much more in his article today-----

.rog.

[endarkenment]

43. I keep mixing him up with Juan Williams

Who basically makes me puke and nearly drive off the road every time I hear him on nationalist public radio.

[rog]

44. Very much a different guy (grin) ... worth checking out. n/t

.

[Finder]

36. Well the only real neocon concern is the north and the kuwait border...

Kurdistan will seek independence and we will provide security, yada yada. Bet we pull out of Baghdad and leave our troops in the north and in the south along the Kuwait border. It will be interesting how the old no fly zones will be the "new border zones."

That was the original plan anyway, IMO. Get ready for some new maps denoting the former Iraq.

[Armstead]

37. Face Saving Constitution for US

The pressure here in terms of time is from the US. And that is due to the need to follow our timetable, so we can save face.

Pessimistically, (written at 1:30 p.m. before anything announced) it's possible that some sort of formal Constitution will be forced through as part of that face saving. And then there will be a big drumbeat by the administration and the Media Ho's -- like after the recent Iraqi election -- to trumpet how the US is succeeding at building a real democracy in Iraq, even though that will be one inch at the surface, and will gloss over the underlying realities.

But the question is whether the Media Hos and majority of Americans will buy into that again, or if there is enough skepticism that enables people to see through the triumphalism.

[Mojorabbit]

39. Then there is this

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GH16Ak03.html
Three-way pull in Iraq
By Ehsan Ahrari

The new Iraqi constitution risks beginning an era of the virtual carving up of Iraq. The Kurds and the Shi'ites are operating on the basis of a zero-sum game, whereby any one group's gains would approximately equal another group's losses. The Kurds are determined to get the autonomous oil-rich northern section. Not to be outmaneuvered by the Kurds, the Shi'ites want an autonomous southern portion. That would leave the Sunnis with the impoverished central section. They are watching, in horror, a process that might be the beginning of the end of a unified Iraq that was created between 1921 and 1932. With all its intentions of democratizing and stabilizing the "new Iraq", the Bush administration may be presiding over the process of the disintegration of Iraq.

great article.....

[endarkenment]

40. Enter Turkey and Iran into the mix

We are watching the balkanization of mesopotamia.

[dogday]

42. They hate us for our freedoms

that's the ticket, our freedoms, they don't like freedom. We have too much and must give away our freedoms so they will like us...

We just did that last Thursday when Bush signed the Monitor Prescription Act, which will make a large database of all the pills everyone is taking. Now mind you this is to protect us from those terrible terrorist Dr. Shoppers....

[bear425]

47. I had a terrible dream the other night...

I dreamed that I was left alone with a top military commander and I asked him what the heck are we going to do about the chaos in Iraq. I said I know you probably can't speak to me about it. Then he turns to me and whispers that they don't know what to do next, but it will be three weeks on the outside before Iraq dissolves into civil war. There was very little they could do to stop it.

Hope my nightmare doesn't come to fruition, but it's looking more like it will. :cry:

[julialnyc]

51. Extension Said Sought on Iraq Constitution

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A Kurdish minister said Monday on Al-Arabiyah television that Iraqis could not reach a complete agreement on a constitution and will seek a 7-10 day extension.


Barhem Saleh, minister of planning and a former deputy prime minister, made the statement shortly before the Iraqi parliament convened to consider the draft.

"Regrettably we were not able to reach a draft we could all agree on," Saleh said, adding, "We agreed to extend the period to discuss the draft for a maximum of 10 days, maybe 7-10 days."

He said the draft will be presented to the National Assembly and that discussions over the constitution would continue. "If we don't reach an agreement, then the National Assembly will be dissolved, and we will call for general elections for a new National Assembly in a maximum period before Oct. 10," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iraq;_ylt=AiB5aGc91kDrxUvtOAnv.Eqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

[Zhade]

52. Wow. A whole lot more people are going to die.

That is SO fucked up.

[Barad Simith]

54. Mr. Pitt, I served with Chuck Bungfeeb

I knew Chuck Bungfeeb. Chuck Bungfeeb was a friend of mine. Mr. Pitt, you're no Chuck Bungfeeb.

:D

[Pithy Cherub]

56. Let's get the Iraqi team jerseys correct!

So the Shia are Iraqi's GOP version modelled after pResident's w's 21st century version? :crazy:
AND
This is where they redistrict IRAQ just like Texas right... Hell...

[steve2470]

58. What a brilliant diplomatic move

:sarcasm:

Gee George, I wonder how many lives that little gem will cost ?

[deadparrot]

60. Freedom and democracy on the march...

The wheels are coming off this thing, and fast.

[mzmolly]

61. Dare I ask ... could it get any worse?

:(

[leesa]

63. Oh boy! Duke Cunningham and Duncan "Two Fruits" Hunter will have to

sport purple fingers again.

[lonestarnot]

64. Civil war without a doubt!

[Rex]

67. The BFEE doesn't want a stable Iraqi government.

Profits would decrease.

[sepia_steel]

71. this needs a

:kick:

[nickgutierrez]

72. More chaos.

And more chaos = easier to steal.

Which, in many ways, was the goal of this invasion from the beginning.