Is DU moving to the left?

[Guaranteed]

For the longest time here, basically from when I got here in 2003 through most of 2004 (before the election), it seemed as if much of DU was dominated by centrist, DLC-type thinking. I found myself pulling to the left much of the time when it seemed that was the case. We were extremely weak.

Then we lost the 2004 election, and we began picking up the pieces. Howard Dean was elected chair of the DNC at the beginning of this year. Things seemed to be looking up. DU felt, to me, like it was just about perfect for a matter of a few months.

But, it seems as if the pendulum has kept swinging to the left since then. I'm not going to give examples, here, but instead just ask if, overall, you've been getting the same feeling that I have over the past four months or so. I think it's on the verge of going too far.

What do you think? Have you noticed anything like this?

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Personally, I think the country is moving left.

If you consider that how many millions voted FOR Kerry, one of the most liberal senators in Congress, it is pretty heartening.

Just my $.02

[mconvente]

3. good point n/t

[Guaranteed]

5. At the very least, we've slowed the country's pendulum swing to the right

way down, if we haven't stopped it already and got it going back in our direction.

We still have an awful lot of work to do, though. The neocons still have their machine in place, and we're going to have to figure out a way to crack it before we can make significant, long-term progress.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. I agree.

Last night, I was on the phone with a friend's husband who started talking about Mohammed Atta and Clinton and the connection...something I must have missed, and I said, Fer cryin' out loud, do you ever watch anything besides Fox News?????

Funny thing is, I found some information on umbilical cord blood that might help his child with CP, here on DU. God forbid that stuff would be on Freepville.

It is very hard to be as left as me and live here. One of my neighbors asked me to join their 'pro life' group....and I just looked at her and said..'honey, why was it okay for you to have an abortion when you were 20, but it isn't okay for anyone else?'

Pretty much the end of the conversation. I bet she wished she never told me that.

[Rich Hunt]

67. at least Fox is good for a laugh

MSNBC, at least during the day, is just as bad.

[Lerkfish]

2. not left enough for me.

but that's just me.

:)

[JAbuchan08]

4. I don't think that DU has really moved to the left

I just think a lot of us are sick to death of the establishment that's a lot different than being "leftist."

[WhoWantsToBeOccupied]

6. If by "moving left" you mean defending the Constitution, voting rights,

...the truth against media lies, privacy against the "Patriot Act," the Earth's environment against catastrophe, American soldiers against getting killed in wars of greed, freedom from torture, freedom from private contractors ripping off the government, etc., then yeah we're all "leftists" now.

[Guaranteed]

9. No, that's not what I'm referring to.

It's gone quite a bit farther than that sometimes.

[WhoWantsToBeOccupied]

12. My point is that our government has jerked to the extreme right

You may perceive us being "leftist," but there are MANY centrists and moderate Republicans absolutely disgusted by our government's actions.

When the world has gone mad, sane people can appear to be (what our corporate-slave media terms) the "looney left."

[Guaranteed]

19. Yeah, I don't think I'm explaining myself well.

I'm PLENTY disgusted with our government. I'm angry as hell. My country is being destroyed.

This anger on DU, for the most part, has been well-focused, and, IMO, very useful.

Some of the things that I've been seeing recently, though, have been, seemingly out of anger, less focused, less useful, and often just plain wrong, morally and politically.

Again, I don't want to start talking specifics, because I'm not looking to offend anyone here.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. BullGoose isn't someone that you need to explain that to.

Trust me on that.

[cally]

8. No

When I first joined DU, it was a place of progressives. During the 2004 election, many of us worked to get Dems elected. That meant that many of us supported candidates that were more centrist than we are. We lost the election and most of us are very angry at the centrist political class in DC and in our party. Thankfully, we now have Dean who is a fighter.

I see DU as much more moderate than it used to be.

[Boomer]

16. My assessment as well

>> I see DU as much more moderate than it used to be. <<

There has been a huge influx of new people, many of them converted from apolitical or even pro-Bush stances, which means almost by definition a more moderate mix.

That's okay. It never hurts for them to be exposed to "radical" left ideas that I take for granted.

[undergroundpanther]

20. I am very left

And I think this centrist stuff the Dem's pander to is what makes the party so impotent in taking down the extreme right. People are scared of having a strong opinion on anything(fear looking like THEM) and even more scared of having strong feelings.Malcolm x was not skeered of his own need for RADICAL change.Nor was MLK. They did it two different ways and both ways are needed (pacifist and activist)and are legit ways to fight an empire.

When we are in times of extreme distress like now,it takes some gutsy radical people who are not scared of the fainting lilies fainting and the"moderates cringing" and the right wing foaming,to stand up and say LOUDLY how they feel about the situation to call a wrongdoing,wrong and go what they want for this country. I hear people whining how the Dem's have no vision or plan. Well to have a vision means you think out how you feel and why,than you stick to your agenda and fight for it even if you look extreme to people much milder and less serious and less knowledgeable about the dire situation we are in.Going farther left is how one can ever hope to balance the far right,and drag this country twords a more central view. The radicals have a purpose it's just not what moderates think.

[cally]

33. I agree for the most part

When even progressives are trying to sound moderate, then our country is in big trouble. We need to hold true to our beliefs because they are correct.

I never know what to call myself. I'm now a radical leftist and I fall in that category on most of the online tests. I was seen as the moderate when in college 25 years ago. I think too many of us have moved to the center when then moderates are now seen as extreme leftists. My views have not changed much but too many now see liberals as radicals.

[JHB]

10. I think it's a mischaracterization to call the DLC "centrist".

They call themselves that because it projects an image of reasonableness and of not being ideological, but that doesn't make it true.

[WhoWantsToBeOccupied]

15. Yes. "Corporatist," not centrist.

[Guaranteed]

21. Totally agreed, there.

Calling the DLC "centrist" was pretty generous of me.

[stillcool]

11. maybe not right or left....

but in the know or not. i found on my entry into DU that i was woefully mis-informed about my government, and the learning curve to get up to speed was substantial, and never-ending. When people feel the need for information they look for it, and upon finding it have no choice but to freak right the fuck out.

[mtnsnake]

13. Good post. I think we all have to be careful we don't alienate one another

within our own ranks as Democrats. Quite often I see people, mostly ones who are way to the left, getting upset with people who aren't quite as left of center as others might like them to be. We ought to remember that Democrats comprise people who are liberal Democrats and people who are not quite as liberal...and this place is called the Democratic Underground. Right?

[ovidsen]

39. Bingo.

I've been cruising here for years, finally signing on this spring....

Too often, I see people flamed or even tombstoned for questioning conventional DU wisdom or raising (but not defending) issues the MSM consider "fact" simply with the idea of opening thoughtful debate. It's sad, because this sort of mindless ideological thinking stifles the free exchange of ideas. It's a kind of "Mean Girls" social mindset that can be very counterproductive. A freeper "my way or the highway" attitude that is very unbecoming.

I could list examples here, but I left my flameproof bodysuit in my wife's car. And today isn't my day for being banned. :)

[TahitiNut]

46. Heaven forbid that anyone alienate the Zell Miller's!

Yes, Zell Miller isn't "quite as left of center as others might like (him) to be." He's "not quite as liberal."

Who's responsible for the alienation of aliens? :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Guaranteed]

48. I don't think anybody would question getting rid of Zell Miller.

In fact, I don't even really question getting rid of Joe Lieberman or Biden (assuming that we replaced them with real Democrats).

[mtnsnake]

69. I was talking about we DUers, not the Zel Millers or any other congress-

men. Otherwise, why would I have said "We ought to remember that Democrats comprise people who are liberal Democrats and people who are not quite as liberal...and this place is called the Democratic Underground." Last I knew, Miller wan't a member of the Democratic Underground.

You shouldn't use partial fragments of someone's post if it distorts the original meaning of their entire post.

Everything in my post was about us DUers getting along politically despite our minor differences to the left or to the right of left. It wasn't about our congressmen. But since you brought up Zel Miller's name, I would never think twice about alienating some disloyal asshole traitor like him.

[TahitiNut]

70. (Oops!) Did I alienate you?

:evilgrin:

[mtnsnake]

71. Just temporarily, hehe

Good comeback!! :toast:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Yes. Slowly, very slowly, the nation is moving to the left.

As the people here and around the country become more aware of the depth of the corruption that exists they are moving to the "left". Although I don't think that for the majority of the populace it is that simply defined.

Here, on DU, people are beginning to see that the problems that exist are not so easily defined as Democrat vs Republican and that one "side" is angelic and the other evil. They are recognizing that the corporate establishment has infected both parties and that politicians of either party are basically politicians with their own interests that supercede prinicipals.

I believe that many are coming to the realization that we no longer live in a Democracy where our representatives work on our behalf, but an oligarchy where the politicians are beholden to the money bosses and the "political strategists" who chase the money.

In essence, some of us think that the whole establishment needs to be reformed or replaced, and that relying on the establishment to reform itself is like having the mafia reform the banks.

Too far left? Not by a very long shot.

[Guaranteed]

30. Again, I'm not really finding what's been bothering me

in what you're saying.

The corporatism needs to go. It should have been gone after 2002, actually, or even before.

[mike_c]

17. as a lifelong uber leftist...

...I find that sometimes DU is a refreshing breath of rationality, but other times is way too far to the right for my tastes. Still, anyplace that flogs the DLC is doing something right in my eyes!

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. Don't get too cozy. The "left" is no where near the top yet.

That sound you're hearing is the sound of the right wing losing their footing on a muddy slope they created for themselves. The left has its own muddy slope problems. But, right now, they can get some leverage stepping over the backs of the fallen.

[Armstead]

22. Same eclectic chaos as ever IMO

Seems to me to be the same basic mix of positions as ever. The issues may be different, but the basic dynamics seem the same.

And what do you mean by "too far left" anyway? The's one of the perennial traps we always seem to fall into. Labeling positions rather than dealing with real issues.

I am opposed to gun control, but I support vigorous action to restore economic democracy and unshackle us from the overwhelming dominance of elite corporate power.

Are those positions left or right?

[Finder]

23. I don't think so...

I see more moderates than anything. I think there are a few prominent posters who are mostly single issue posters that lean more to the left or right than the majority but overall I still think DU is moderate.

[Desertrose]

24. You say it like thats a BAD thing....

:evilgrin:

I think we have quite a way to go before we are "too left"...but thats just me :)

[fujiyama]

25. In some ways

I get the sense many here are tired of being lectured by the DLC, but at the same time I sometimes see people defending bullshit like intelligent design being tought in schools, so I really don't know.

[K-W]

27. I think the left/right destinction is too simplistic to be used here. EOM

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

28. I'm not sure about moving further left

However, I do think we've gotten more zealous since the elections. I think a lot of people left rational thinking at the door in November.

[KingFlorez]

29. We need an alliance

In order for the left to advance to the top we need have an agenda that an alliance of people can support. It can't all be about ideology, but about effectiveness on issues.

[LoZoccolo]

31. The far-left people chase centrists and real-life activists away.

Not because their opinions are intimidatingly right, but upon seeing post after post of general abstract assertions with the same handful of buzzwords ("corporatist", "DLC", "take back the party", "real progressives", etc., etc.) with not much specific anything, impractical thinking (threatening to start third parties, people saying we shouldn't think about electability, and the like), accusations of being a disruptor, anger management problems, showing off, and just the general tendencies of people who tend to radicalize while sitting down behind a computer screen, the people who are actually doing real work for their party tend to think their activist hours are best spent more productively elsewhere.

One of the reasons I stick around is to promote Illinois Dem Net, an organization that gives people real things to do in Illinois. I find the people that actually show up are much more logical, nuanced, practical, and tempered than people you'd find on a message board.

[KoKo]

34. Why do you assume that "Lefties" are not active in their own states?

I remember an argument I had with you about this awhile back when you stated that same assumption. :eyes:

I said to you in my state the activists (Dean, former Nader, and Greens were in conflict on many issues with the Dem Centrists/DLC'ers who wanted to always do things the way they've been done for years...all those years we've been losing elections or been electing "Dems in Name Only."

Just repeating what I said to you, in case you forgot. :D

[LoZoccolo]

36. I just don't see them around much in real life.

When people with the same disposition as you see a lot of here show up, they tend to make really big spectacles of themselves. The median DU affect does not play well in real-life society, I would say.

Neither do I generally see the median poster on here talking about how to get what they want in a manner that indicates that they have a real stake in getting it done.

[HamdenRice]

32. Elements of DU are moving left because of the RW threat ...

I haven't been here as long as you, but I've noticed a move to the left. I think it is because people are reacting to historic events. Consider what the country was like before spring 2003.

When shrub was elected, I thought he was an amiable doofus. As someone who is probably more to the left than you, I was not very enthusiastic about Gore -- his trying to prevent African countries from licensing cheap AIDS drugs, his waffling on Elian Gonzales, his pandering. After the election, it wasn't clear what had happened -- just that it was very close, a statistical dead heat and the SCOTUS chose shrub to end the crisis. I'm ashamed now to say that I thought it wouldn't matter that much whether a DLC Democrat like Gore or a relatively liberal "compassionate conservative" like shrub was president.

After 9/11, most of us thought that we were attacked out of the blue by OBL, and despite misgivings, the war in Afghanistan was justified.

The horrific realization began to dawn on many people only after shrub began sabre rattling about Iraq. A "war of choice" seemed inconceivable. Right up until Spring 2003, I for one believed it might be a huge bluff or that the administration would bend to international outrage, or Sadam would outfox the neocons by opening the country up to nuclear inspection.

I think many Democrats began to understand the true nature of the threat that the administration posed to the world community and to the US with the beginning of the Iraq war. Since then, we have come to learn that the administration lied about WMD. Thanks to the 9/11 Commission, and the incredible amount of obstruction and stalling, and the bizarre need of shrub to sit in Cheney's lap during their interview with the Commission, many began to see there was more to 9/11 than an out of the blue attack.

In early 2004, the administration began floating the idea of cancelling elections, which put 2000 in a whole new light. This was not tin-foil hat stuff; it was seriously floated, leaked by the State Department and even the NY Times editorial board addressed it as a bad idea.

That is when I started coming to DU, and one of my earliest posts was to the effect that I believed the administration no longer believed in electoral democracy, and that irregularities in one or two districts in Ohio in the upcoming elections could steal the presidency.

Since then we have seen that members of the MSM have been bribed or intimidated (or simply replaced by real rather than figurative whores), that the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen, that the war is for oil and Cheney's profits, that there is some kind of connection between the bush family and bin Ladens, and on and on. I personally have gone from understanding 9/11 as a terrorist attack, to LIHOP and as I read more and more, am moving toward MIHOP, which means the present government is indeed truly evil, and not just RW, incompetent or ideologically misguided.

In other words, many in DU, like the country, are moving left because we are being radicalized by the recognition that we are the victimes of an anti-democratic, imperialistic coup.

[Burried News]

38. Great post. I don't subscribe to LIHOP or MIHOP - yet.

But your last line is spot on.

"In other words, many in DU, like the country, are moving left because we are being radicalized by the recognition that we are the victimes of an anti-democratic, imperialistic coup."

I still consider myself centrist and try to address issues as independent of each other. I have watched the Federal Government very carefully since the mid 1990's (when I got a computer) - I believe left/liberal/progressive websites have been consistently more accurate in reporting and interpreting events.

From my perspective George Bush reinvented the left. Perhaps this is as it always has been - that leftism is a reaction to tyranny.


PS I was born in Hollis and graduated Andrew Jackson HS

[HamdenRice]

42. It's the accumulation of bush's crimes ...

that makes each independent outrage plausible. I would never subscribe to LIHOP or MIHOP if it had not been for the more obvious crimes of electoral fraud, illegal war, torture, reckless fiscal policy, detention without trial, war profiteering, Downing Street memo, Sibel Edward's allegations, proposed cancelling of the 2004 elections, and on and on.

I could never, for example, have believed that Richard Nixon, would have contemplated such a thing, as warped as he was. But this administration makes all things potentially feasible.

BTW, when did you live in Hollis? I grew up here, lived away for many years and recently came back.

Thanks for the compliment.

edited

[Burried News]

62. "that makes each independent outrage plausible" yes it does.

Born there in 40's. Lived in Springfield Gardens till the 70's.
Then CT, GA and NC. Like it here alot. Rolling stone but prefer Pink Floyd and the Eagles.
PS Lived in Hamden CT - that's why I looked into your Bio. Did you know Collin Powell lived in Hollis when he attended CCNY? He left when I entered so - have lived along time and a good life. Hope we can change course so your generation can say the same (I assume you are considerably younger than I - pretty much assume that of everyone on these boards)

[Guaranteed]

47. Good post. However,

I don't think I can move much farther left than I already have without starting to really question what I'm saying.

As far as 9/11, I've always thought LIHOP was entirely possible, maybe even likely. MIHOP would require some serious proof, though, despite Bush's connections with the Saudis and the bin Ladens. Honestly, if I truly believed in MIHOP, I don't think I'd even say it here, to begin with, nor would I just be talking about it on a message board. I'd probably get awfully "radicalized" myself.

[Just Me]

50. Sheesh. I had pretty much forgotten where I stood merely 3 years ago.

The year of 2002 completely changed my life. I immediately recognized the war propaganda and was compelled to engage in a completely self-initiated crusade for the truth. I lived in a perpetual state of shock for a solid 6 months.

You are so right that we are ",...moving left because we are being radicalized by the recognition that we are the victimes of an anti-democratic, imperialistic coup." Sometimes, I feel like I am being forced to exist in a nightmare of someone else's creation and all I can do is keep on screaming. It's horrible, what's happened to this country.

[Guaranteed]

51. Me too.

The run up to the war was the worst time of my life. It was like being in a war in my own country. Hating everyone who just passed me on the street.

[Burried News]

63. Maybe what's happening isn't so new? Just bigger & 'better' (not)

As I read Iran Contra, BCCI, Hud and S&L Scandal's, Capone and Chicago, The Gangs of New York etc. etc. I think things are pretty similar.
The big difference is the scale - the Multinational Corporations are so much bigger and linked at the Board Level, the absence of serious competition from Unions and Progressive elements. And of course the proliferation of nuclear weapons, computerized intelligence gathering and advanced biochemical weapons.

[OneBlueSky]

35. I certainly hope so . . .

given that today's "center" is yesterday's far right . . .

[Swamp Rat]

37. Left, right, center... sounds like dance instructions.

I refuse to adhere to the simplistic construct of "left/center/right." Then again, I'm running on fumes - no sleep for over 24 hrs, so ignore the weirdness. :)

[LincolnMcGrath]

52. GIT YOUR A** IN BED TRUTHSEEKER!

:loveya: Be awake and refreshed in 7.5 hours!!!

[Swamp Rat]

55. I will not!

:D

Actually, I may have to go to sleep by the time the Malloy Show starts, but I will try listen to the beginning, at least... to post the Gallagher pic. ;)

40. left or right

why don't we just call ourselves the heavenly party from above, then we don't have to worry about right or left.

I can't learn much from throwing around labels. What opinions are too far left? Irrational ones? I've been called a radical a few times by my peers, but I am pretty apolitical compared to my zealot parents. Like to throw in an opinion now and then. :hippie:

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

43. "Left"? I don't even know what that is anymore.

I do believe this place is a haven for information, knowledge and a clearer understanding of the big picture. We have a pretty firm handle on how people here and abroad are being exploited and solidly oppose such activity by those who are suppose to be SERVING "the people" rather than enslaving and abusing them.

[spuddonna]

44. Really, I haven't noticed any change...

I've noticed increased head-banging at the policies of this administration, and more desperate pleas of "I Can't Stand It Anymore!!", but politically, hadn't noticed any change...

BTW- On the head-banging, I find 10-15 quick raps against the wall does the trick... the pain is a wonderful distraction form thinking about Bushfuhrer & Friends... (your mileage may vary)

[William769]

45. Maybe to the straight left.

[geckosfeet]

49. I think that "far left" in the US would be considered centrist in much

of Canada and Europe. Hopefully the cultural pendelum has reversed direction and is picking up momentum - to the left!

[Mairead]

56. Exactly!! People in other countries marvel at how deformed the

US political space is. The US eagle is the only bird in the world with 2 right wings.

As long as someone at DU can get away with saying that opposition to Israel equates to the desire for another Holocaust, the right wingers at DU need not worry that DU is becoming too leftist.

[Guaranteed]

57. There are no right wingers on DU,

except for those who might be undercover.

As far as the opposition to Israel, if someone said that, it's ridiculous.

[Mairead]

58. Whether there are depends on where one stands, doesn't it?

How else would you interpret the fact that most Dem officeholders could pass unnoticed as members of the Tories in the UK, the CDU in Germany, or France's National Front? Yet Dems are allegedly the party of liberals.

And yes, as ridiculous and even insulting as you or I might find such a statement, it was made at DU quite recently and allowed to stand.

[Ms. Clio]

53. Not at all, precisely the opposite n/t

[Tactical Progressive]

54. No, Democrats have always been left

It's just that during the run-up to the 2004 election, ideological Progressives finally understood the message from the 2000 election and stood together with a moderate front message. Diebold trumped that, but at least Dems finally got a big piece of the politics right.

Now we're more fractious and willing to discuss our Progressive beliefs more. When the next election cycle comes, hopefully we'll unite again.

[Adelante]

59. I dunno

I've seen somewhat less of a strict adherence to ideological purity and more openness to judgment based on issues and individual record than previously -- on DU overall. I think it's good, but I'm one who wants to see the party factions to work collaboratively, whenever possible, and not fragment into ineffective pieces. To me, the trouble is finger-pointing at this group or that one, name-calling and hysteria, instead of judging individual actions among Dems and failure to uphold the Democratic program.

We're never all going to agree on everything, but the broad range of political views within the party needs to reflect the country at large, not just the left or only the center. The trouble on DU seems to me to arise when people who are agenda-driven post simply to rile everybody up and a climate of intimidation is created, so that any chance for rational discussion or an open exchange of ideas, flies up the chimney. A mob mentality takes over two or three times a week here. The level of McCarthyite censorship can be sickening.

I sure as hell don't get everything I want out of being a Dem, God knows, but the alternative works to help me know we need every single Democrat we can get and to want not to lose a single one just because they may think differently than I do. If somebody in good faith accepts nine out of ten core Democratic issues, but can't wrap their head around that one, we at DU want to ride that person out on a rail. The pendulum will always self-correct, I think, but we need an open DU society so it can swing freely.

[Zhade]

60. Interesting question!

I do see longtime DUers who once defended Status Quo Dems and DLCesque policies becoming infuriated at being played for chumps over and over...

...and then I see lots of newbies coming here in a vain, laughable attempt to defend what the DU 'lifers' gave up on defending.

So overall, I'd say DU is headed toward a better grasp of reality. That reality mostly coincides with leftism is a nice happenstance.

[Lori Price CLG]

61. Nope, more Reichwingers have infiltrated the board and post...

with impunity. If you notice, any decent threads which show evidence that the Bush regime is behind terrorist attacks (or planning bio-terror) are quickly taken over by someone admonishing the poster for one reason or another.

Their goal is actually to trash the premise of the thread.

Lori Price

[Burried News]

66. Similar things happen on WaPo website.

It is definitely a psyop (and not just U.S.) world. On the other hand when you read the tea leaves you learn even more.
All roads lead to Rome - but they make alot of turns along the way. :)

[Burried News]

64. Kick and nominated.

[Beelzebud]

65. Here is my honest assessment:

I think that suffering defeats in every major election, in a decade, has just made some of us bitter. I know I am.

I am guilty of going over-the-top on occasion. I can see that. However it just comes from a "pressure pot" mindset, where I feel if I don't rant it all out sometimes, my head will explode.

It's been tough dealing with the Bush Crime Family for the past 5 years. It seems like it will never end.

When I look honestly at how I feel, I can see this for sure:

My core democratic, liberal values have NOT changed at all. I have not gotten to a "far left" position.

I am just starting to become willing to FIGHT for what I believe in.

That is the difference. I'm tired of liberals being described as some bed-wetting children, too scared to fight when it's necessary.

That is the difference. I'm a liberal that is PROUD OF IT. And I'm finally to the point where I'm willing to yell, and scream, and if need be, fight to defend what I KNOW is good.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

68. Yes. Hope so. Hurry up! I am way over here at 9 o'clock and

still lonley.