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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 04:56 PM
Original message
Labels used for deflection...
Anyone who questions Iraq is immediately labeled "anti-war." I questioned Iraq from the minute it was mentioned because the "proof" was not iron-clad. As soon as Bush or Powell or Rumsfeld gave "intel" it was debunked immediately. I was "anti-Iraq-war" because the proof wasn't there. I am "anti-lie" for sure.

I backed going into Afghanistan and I backed going after bin Laden "dead or alive." I was never a Bush fan but I did back the Afghanistan initiative.

So, by simply saying "these anti-war people" The Right is, in essence, lying again - is my logic wrong? Simply being against Iraq does not an "anti-war" person make. I don't want to go unless and until it is necessary but I certainly do not want to send our troops into another Vietnam based on lies and oil.

I guess my point is - this whole "anti-war" label allows The Right to, once again, clump Afghanistan and Iraq into the same neat package as if they are one in the same and that "doing nothing" is the only other choice as a reaction to 9/11. The other choice would have been to stay on course, get Osama, and be done with it; dealing with Iraq diplomatically at a later time - letting the *UN* resolve a problem with a *UN* directive. I realize that many here may have also disagreed with the Afghanistan war but is my point valid?

Not having a child over there, I don't know the answer to this question but would it make a difference if a loved one was lost in Afghanistan vs Iraq? Either would be terrible but would it be more terrible (or maddening) if it were Iraq because of the lies? Again, I have no clue and am not insinuating anything with the question at all - just wondering.

("Rumsfeld" came up in error in spell-check --- it felt good to click "ignore") LOL

emdee
:shrug:
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hell, anyone who questions Iraq is labeled "pro-terrorist".....
That's a real stretch, but they do it anyway.

Hopefully these maniacs are in their death throes.
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Even knowing that it's just their way of avoiding actual debate....
it still bothers me to no end.
emdee
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think your points are valid
I'd add one more; by saying "anti-war", the repukes are conjuring up images of Viet Nam, and distorting those images to show that the protestors then were anti-military (like the myth of soldiers being spat upon). That is not true; my brother was in Viet Nam for two tours of duty, and I wanted him out of there before he won a Purple Heart (which, praise God, is what happened).

I think we can bring more people around to our way of thinking that we need to leave if we focus on Iraq and what was done wrong there (everything).
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Thankfully, I think that many are coming around....
and I know some who would defend Bush even if he gave that smirk and admitted to everything.
emdee
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Your logic is NOT wrong...
Unfortunately, if you persist in applying logic, the picture gets much worse.

I basically scoff at the "anti-war" label. In fact, I don't consider the colonization of Iraq to be a "war".

It is a crime.

Period.

Like yourself, I am "anti-lie". I'm also "anti-" criminal fraud, conspiracy, grand theft, treason, and mass murder.

I'm also "anti-" the weaponization of the human psyche through propaganda and various mind control techniques, and using that weaponry against myself and the American people. And I'm very much "anti-" obscuring these and other crimes, and trivializing and marginalizing those who would demand justice, by using word games and spinning it all into harmless little "political" games.
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That'll never fit onto a bumper sticker! LOL
But I agree with you wholeheartedly. Welcome to DU.

emdee:hi:
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Thanks...
:hi:

LOL... I still harbor the notion that folks can be weaned off of soundbites. And the thing is, they could be. You'd just have to kidnap and deprogram them.
:think:
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You're right - but how many generations will it take? n/t
n/t
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Absolutely valid point: in fact as if you were articulating my own...
subconscious. I was troubled by this very thing yesterday and today in the context of writing about Cindy Sheehan's apparent call for the destruction of Israel, but I shoved my semantic concerns aside in the name of focusing on the main issue of the call itself.

But the Left includes many people like myself who are not pacifists, who are military veterans, who are justifiably enraged by 9/11 and therefore support retaliation against the Jihadists in Afghanistan, but who oppose the war in Iraq -- especially because of the Bush Administration's repeated lies and its willy-nilly squandering of U.S. military lives. Yet what do we call ourselves? Are we to be excluded -- precisely as women were so long excluded by use of "man" as a synonym for all humankind? What name would end our ideological exclusion and replace it with a new and vital inclusiveness? What name is there that can neither be twisted by the Right (as the OP noted) nor co-opted by opportunists (whether pacifist or pro-Jihadist)?

I am a word-person -- both professionally and by inclination -- and yet I have no answer.
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I think that the game plan....
from The Right is to use these types of smoke-screens to divert attention and muddy the water. The whole "support Bush or else you don't support the troops" is tripe and yet look how many people believe it?

I put a support the troops magnet on my car right beside my bumper sticker with the 'W' that has the red circle and slash through it just to see if anyone thought it was a contradiction. It isn't.

I doubt that we would ever be given the "right" to name ourselves - that wouldn't suit their agenda!!

:patriot:

emdee
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I don't have a clear answer...,
...but I believe the discourse needs to move in the direction of exposing deception and joining together under a banner of legitimacy, integrity, and accountability. To do so, people need to come to grips with the number one enemy: Liars.

There's such a thing as "the common good", which, I truly believe most people, if left to their own devices (free from malicious propaganda), clearly recognize. But "the powers that be" seem to be most adept at dividing us up into little "interest groups".
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Great post. I totally agree....
but we both know it will probably just be the high gas prices that blows the lid off! LOL
:freak:
emdee
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. I was and am against the war in Afghanistan, too, though.
I'm not really a pacifist, as I think there are times when the military option is the only one, but I'm against the whole War on Terror.

I studied in Russia for a semester in college, and one thing we studied was the Soviet war in Afghanistan. When I heard that we were headed there, I knew we were in for at least ten years and would slowly lose soliders a few at a time. The Afghani people have lived with war for decades, and they know how to fight an invasion force, bin Laden included. I was telling everyone the ten years thing and was finally justified when Gen. Tommy Banks finally admitted it last year.

I was against the Iraq War, as it never quite made sense. They kept saying that Saddam had all these weapons, but that didn't make sense, considering we'd kept tabs on him ever since the First Gulf War. It also didn't check out against 9/11, their constant reason.

So I guess I'm anti-Terror War and pro-War for a Damn Good Reason.
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You have insight and knowledge that I don't....
with more research and study, I might be right there with you because just from the bit you've written here, I understand your point about Afghanistan. At the time, we were told that's where Osama was and where we would need to go to "get him dead or alive."

I never backed Iraq because everything that I heard was debunked as soon as it was said.

Looking back, I simply should not have trusted Bush that one time I did - after 9/11 and going into Afghanistan. Today I wouldn't run if he shouted "Fire" - he'd probably be standing there with a lit match as he screamed it.

I think that bin Laden will never again be the main focus - Bush can't get him; the two families are united. I believe that more and more each day.

emdee
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. There is something there between the families.
They're too interconnected, too corrupted to be truly trusted. The more I read about it, the more disgusted I get. It's one thing to get to know your enemy so that you can sit at a table and talk peace terms. It's another to continually do business with them, meet them privately, help them out of the country after an attack, and then turn around and convince the public that you hate them.

How could you not trust your President in a time of war? We're trained to, and frankly, I don't think most of us had ever even thought that we couldn't. The first time I ever disagreed seriously with a sitting president about war was when Clinton bombed Serbia on our Eastern Orthodox Easter, the holiest day of the year for us. Of course, I'm fairly young and don't even remember Vietnam, but I couldn't believe our President deliberately bombed worshipping Christians in their churches on Easter (which he did--I've heard too much from people who were there to doubt it). I think that was a defining moment for me--that our President might not always do the right thing for the right reasons and even do some horrible things in our name.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I still trust our President - problem is GORE was elected President.
That squatter war criminal in OUR White House is NOT Our "President", even tho he currently occupies the Oval Office.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I am leaning toward agreement, albeit with a subtle difference:
I am beginning to believe Afghanistan was a phony war -- a sham to vent U.S. fury at 9/11 without actually accomplishing anything: perhaps even, long run, further entrenching the Islamic Fundamentalist interests of the Bush/Saudi (and therefore Jihadi) alliance. Note in this context the re-emergence of the Taliban, which indeed now increasingly seems the only possible purpose behind allowing Osama bin Laden's escape. Indeed it would serve the oligarchy's ultimate cause: the Jihadists to provide, with their attacks, the rational for skyrocketing oil prices, even as the plutocrats seize ever greater portions of the world's wealth. (Which is precisely why I am convinced all Bush's alleged "blunders" whether in Iraq or Afghanistan are in fact expressions of clandestine but deliberate policy: that is the only explanation that makes sense -- particularly when one applies objective analysis {Occam's Razor and its principle of parsimony in the context of class struggle}.)

That said, as far as the so-called War on Terror itself (which should in reality be called the War against Jihadist Aggression), I support it, simply because the one fact 9/11 proves beyond any doubt is the desperate need to defend not just the United States but in fact all of civilization -- especially the principles of liberty itself -- against Radical Islam.

And yet I absolutely understand your own position. Not the least because mine seems ever-more evolving. This situation is so complex -- so beclouded by official dishonesty and yet so constantly unfolding "outside the box" of deliberate falsehood -- it is more difficult to assess than anything I have ever confronted. By comparison, Vietnam was easy. Which is why, despite having strong opinions with a solid historical basis -- especially my stance toward Jihadist Islam -- I will be the first to admit that (at least on this bus) I am probably as much a Bozo as anyone else.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'm all for going after al Qaeda, but we need to do what works.
The problem with al Qaeda is that it's the perfect terror organization--train people to think of, plan, and execute attacks independently and then send them back home. A usual military system with hierarchy and supply chains and all the usual trappings just will not do well against such a group. Never has.

The Russians didn't do so well against the terrorists of a century ago, the Communists (remember, they lost more than one tsar and important politician to terrorists in the 1800's and early 1900's) for the same reason. Small, loyal, independent cells are darn hard to crack. Bombing them or destroying their cities and homes has never really worked.

The police are far more successful, frankly. They are better at building up informant networks and slowly squeezing these people into a corner and catching them. We need to fully fund them and let them do their job while our diplomats sit at the table with them and listen.

Sept. 11th changed much, but in many ways it didn't. It had been a matter of time for such a major attack to get through our meager defenses. We'd had the idea that our oceans protected us, as did the Bomb. They didn't and still don't. We need to shore up the defenses we have here and work to eliminate the need for terrorists to attack in the first place.

At the end of the 1800's, beginning of the 1900's, Europe and the U.S. were awash in terrorism. Bombings, assassinations, you name it were all going on. Why aren't those same groups still fighting? Most of them were ultimately listened to and enfolded into the political class. Yes, many were killed, and yes, World War I put many off of violence to even get them to sit at a table with their enemies, but the table was there. I think, instead of dehumanizing Islamist extremists like al Qaeda and Hamas, we should be listening to them and seeing if there's room for compromise.

Yes, bin Laden has said he won't stop until the U.S. is a Muslim country. Many of the terrorists of the last century said they wouldn't stop until the governments had fallen and there was anarchy. The major goals are just dreams to many in the movement. Bin Laden has also asked repeatedly for us to get our troops out of Saudi Arabia, and that is a valid point. If we are there simply to be close to the action or to prop up a horribly corrupt and evil dictatorship, it's time for us to withdraw and start a new plan.

I think that, if instead of putting bin Laden into hiding, we sat down with him and tried to see if there were any ways to, without dishonoring the dead or opening a fresh wound on his side, come to terms somehow, something good could come out of that. I don't think that's weak, as we have done it with almost all of our nation's enemies in the past. We did it throughout the Cold War, finally getting results with Yeltsin and Gorbachev.

As an aside, much of the rhetoric our side uses is old. Substitute "communism" for "radical Islam," and you'll see what I mean. Our society is always under attack, as all societies have been in history. Our greatest weakness, however, is corruption from within. The Communists wouldn't have won the October Revolution in St. Petersburg and later all of Russia if the system had been just and hadn't been so corrupted from within.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thank you so very much for the eloquent and carefully reasoned response.
Edited on Tue Aug-16-05 02:27 AM by newswolf56
Sorry I can't answer in detail just now -- I am finishing up a project with an immediate deadline -- but I will respond at length later today, probably this afternoon or early evening.

Meanwhile I think your historical references (especially to Russian history) have pretty much circumvented my post 9/11 rage and convinced me of the validity of the law-enforcement approach to coping with terrorism: note especially how the variously named Cheka (OGPU, NKVD, KGB etc.) relied on the revolutionaries' own experience to prevent any such movement from ever again arising in the USSR. Alas, too bad Kerry and company were (for whatever reason) chronically unable to present such a compelling and implicitly well-footnoted argument. Thanks again!


Edit: correction of date in first paragraph after I discovered it was past midnight.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. *blush* And I'm just a stay-at-home mom!
Wow. Ummmm, thanks! I haven't had anyone think I made a good argument like that since college. *sigh* I miss college some days.

I think the problem for politicians is the soundbite. Kerry might have made a good argument for keeping it in the jurisdiction of the police, but who knows what soundbite would make it into the MSM? He could've just said over and over that Clinton had actually done what worked on the first World Trade Center Bombing, but then the RW'ers would've had a field day with that (bringing up Clinton seems to do that to them). I don't know what he could've done, frankly.

That's a really good point about the KGB that I hadn't considered. They did a good job of infiltrating various cells but also left others alone for some reason (some churches were left alone while others were shipped off to the gulags, and no one really knows why)--maybe the randomness was enough to scare and control people.

I hope they figure out what to do about Chechnya, though. That place is a mess, and too many innocents are getting hurt by both sides. It just hurts my heart when I read up on that one. :cry:
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Russian, British, Israeli and Austro-Hungarian histories all show...
Edited on Tue Aug-16-05 11:36 PM by newswolf56
variants of the law-enforcement response to terrorism, and given the overall success of the respective organizations, the evidence surely weighs in favor of the police (and/or secret police) as a strategic mainstay. The Czar's Okhrana kept revolution at bay for nearly 100 years after the rising of the Decembrists in 1825 (the taking of the Winter Palace in 1917 and in fact the entire October Revolution was a response to the failure of the Provisional Government six months after the abdication of Nicholas II effectively beheaded the Okhrana). The British Security Service (MI-5) hamstrung the Irish Republican Army even as the Secret Intelligence Service (MI-6) severed its overseas support. The Israeli Shin Bet (akin to MI-5) and Mossad (like unto MI-6) continues to ensure the survival of Israel despite the tactical shift of Israel's enemies away from conventional warfare to individual suicide bombings. And the House of Habsburg's long tenure as Austro-Hungarian emperors -- I have forgotten the name of the Austro-Hungarian secret police -- was maintained in not just in the face of re-emergent Balkan nationalism, but also against the literally byzantine intrigues of the Ottoman Empire, and the same Russian intelligence apparatus (even then incomparably skilled) that under Alexander II nearly brought down the British Indian Viceroyalty by agitating the Sepoy Mutiny. Prinzep's success at Sarajevo was a fluke: even the most efficient dragnet will sometimes allow the bigger sharks to escape.

In other words, your citation of the 19th century and the strategy employed against its diverse revolutionaries is both informative and pivotal. It was reflecting on that very history that at long last made me see the validity of the so-called "law-enforcement approach."

But another of the lessons of all this history is that the law-enforcement strategy alone (which is of necessity also an intelligence and counter-intelligence strategy) is not always sufficient. As in the British Empire's suppression of the Mau Mau insurgency in Kenya and the British victory in the lengthy Communist insurrection in Malaya -- the so-called "War of Running Dogs" -- regular troops (and even conventional battle, albeit it typically on a small scale) often prove necessary. Hence the real need is for a balanced approach -- a major intelligence effort bolstered by military capabilities, of which both Northern Ireland and Israel are instructive examples.

Equally instructive is the great Russian failure in Afghanistan: allowing the United States to expand the anti-Russian reaction of Muslim fanatics into a full-blown religious war. The fanatics -- not nationalists but rural Jihadists -- violently opposed Soviet intentions of changing Afghanistan into an avowedly secular and (by comparison to the unspeakably vicious religious oppression the Soviets sought to outlaw) radically libertarian modern nation. Not surprisingly, the Soviets were wildly popular among the modernists in Kabul and a few other cities, though virtually all the modernists -- Soviet supporters or not -- were subsequently all slaughtered by the Jihadists, often publicly and by hideously slow medieval methods: no doubt the underlying cause of our own difficulty finding reliable allies among the Afghan people. Nor was the Soviet effort without precedent: as I understand it, the historical model from which the Soviets were working was the forcible collectivization of rural Russia by Stalin after Russian Orthodox clergy there raised an anti-Bolshevik counter-revolution by preying on the superstitions of the peasants. But the mujiki -- the Russian peasantry -- had no major-power international backing, and Stalin succeeded, employing precisely the police/intelligence and military tactics the Soviet Union later attempted to apply in Afghanistan. Without U.S. intervention -- the same intervention that, ironically, empowered Osama bin Laden -- the Soviets would almost certainly have succeeded.

The U.S. reaction was motivated not just by long-term fear of what a Soviet ally in that region might do to the global petroleum market, but by omnipresent capitalist terror of the popular impact of the Communist example -- even now the only analysis that fully addresses all the ugly realities of a society starkly divided between oligarchy and proletariat. There was also a very real and infinitely malicious Reaganoid yearning to avenge the loss of Vietnam. The U.S. tactics in Afghanistan were, ironically, the same tactics the Soviets and the Chinese helped the Viet Cong and later the North Vietnamese Army employ in Vietnam. The difference -- hideously significant in retrospect -- is that the VC and the NVA were fighting a war of national liberation, while the Jihadists were fighting its most malevolent diametrical opposite: a war of theocratic oppression, complete with all its blood-drenched grotesquery of practice and punishment -- female circumcision, public deaths by fire, stoning, flogging -- with such penalties imposed for even the slightest suspected unorthodoxies. The greatest irony of all is that, by invading Afghanistan to crush the Taliban, we were thus ultimately liberating it from the legacy we ourselves had emplaced.

However I have wandered far afield here, hence back to the topic of appropriate strategies to use in defending ourselves, our nation and our civilization against Jihadist aggression. As far as I am concerned the example of Talibanic rule in Afghanistan, the continued assertions of bin Laden and his ilk plus the history of Islam itself (which twice nearly conquered all of Europe) prove we are facing the most dangerous foe in human history. Either we are successful in our defense, or the world will be plunged into a dark age of dhimmitude that will make our own European Dark Age seem a period of enlightenment by comparison. Furthermore I do not believe the timing of this threat is an accident: beyond all the policy issues, the ultimate vexation of the Jihadists is -- just as the Jihadists themselves assert -- our very existence. And what they despise most of all is not only the great strides the women of the Western World have made toward full equality but (and perhaps especially) the consequent resurrection of the female aspects of the divine in our spiritual, religious and therapeutic practices. To a follower of Allah, to a fanatical believer in Sharia, nothing in the universe is more terrifying or threatening than the return of the Great Goddess -- whether as metaphor, psychological archetype or metaphysical hypothesis it matters not. As the Celtic poet Taliesin predicted perhaps 26 centuries ago: "resumption of such conflicts/ as Gwydion once made" --literally war over the gender of god.

I believe that until we truly recognize the nature of the Jihadist onslaught, no strategy will suffice to keep us safe. I also believe that in the United States, with its decades of corporate-run dumbed-down public schools, its bread-and-circuses mass media, and most of all its malevolent history of savage anti-intellectuality dating from the McCarthy Era and its dreadful war against "eggheads," we are singularly ill-equipped to evolve the essential analysis. Again ironically, the very failings that have left us so chronically unable to cope with the Jihadist threat today are precisely the failings that led to our creation of a monster in Afghanistan 20 years ago. We did not start Islamic militance -- Islam's history of bloody Jihad dates back to Muhammed himself -- but by the Reaganoid bluster and buffoonery in 1980s Afghanistan, and perhaps also by the design of those in the oligarchy who see crisis as essential to the imposition of tyranny (and tyranny as vital to the preservation of capitalism), we elevated Islamic militance to its present level: as surely as if we deliberately goaded a wounded lion to maximum fury -- and then loosed him on our own household.

Which brings me specifically back to the matter of strategy itself. For a combined law-enforcement/intelligence/military approach to actually work -- and I think we are far beyond the point at which anything less might suffice -- it seems to require a kind of central authority and coordination that is alien to the American character and may also (particularly given the factionalism inherent in U.S. politics) render the preservation of liberty ultimately impossible. Note in this context that three of the successful anti-insurrectionist examples above cited -- the Russian, Austro-Hungarian and (early) Soviet empires -- were unabashed tyrannies. Note also that the British approach to suppressing insurrection is invariably to first suspend all the insurrectionists' civil rights and then treat them accordingly: note for example the internment of suspected Mau Mau, or the number of Irish rebels held indefinitely without formal charges and allegedly interrogated under torture. Note also the allegations about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, whether Jihadist or not. What these countries all have in common is either a national police force or its functional equivalent -- something long recognized in the U.S. as a dangerous stepping-stone to tyranny. The point is that -- if these examples are indeed valid -- the very strategy essential to our defense could bring about the end of our liberty forever. Of course there is historical irony here too: some historians believe the violent oppressiveness that ultimately brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union was nothing intrinsic to Marxism but rather a response necessitated by the implacable (and ever conspiratorial) hostility of the capitalist powers.

Returning once again to the strategy question itself, note how singularly ill-equipped the typical U.S. police department is to cope with crime in general -- much less organized Jihadist terrorism. Factor in divergent local realities -- the avowed hostility of some police chiefs to any anti-terrorist investigations (despite the widely publicized Federal Bureau of Investigation evidence some communities may indeed be centers of terrorist agitation); the probability other police departments would go to the opposite extreme in using "terrorism" as an excuse to cudgel and oppress minorities -- and you have some idea of the diversity that has to be somehow coordinated and managed under a single bureaucratic umbrella. There is likewise a huge and righteous controversy over creation of a U.S. national police agency: the authoritarians say we cannot survive without it, but the libertarians are justifiably terrified a national police force would become the facilitator of the oligarchy's ever-more-clear intention of protecting and expanding capitalism via dictatorship. And I side with the libertarians: this is not 1941, when the country was governed by Left/liberals and united in defense of democracy against fascism; it is 2005 -- when much of the nation IS fascist -- specifically Christofascist -- and the country is ruled by men who make no secret of siding with the global oligarchy in its obscenely greedy intent to reduce all the rest of us to the 21st Century equivalent of abject slavery.

Ultimately it is therefore not a question of strategy as much as politics: I believe a combined law-enforcement/intelligence/military approach is the only strategy that will save us from the Jihadist onslaught, and I even fear a national police force may eventually be necessary, but the political figures I would entrust with such awful powers are neither those presently in office nor those visible anywhere on the horizon.



Edit: typos.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I agree with some main points, but I take issue with others.
First of all, I don't think our enemy is the worst we've ever seen in history. We've had some doozies in our past, and I honestly don't think we're up against the worst one ever.

One thing that I've learned in life so far is that there usually is a disconnect between theory and practice. Yes, the Taliban were doing horrific things--but they never controlled the entire country, and they never were at peace, which might have been why they went to the extreme they did. If you look only at the rhetoric and the theory, it looks scary, but I still have hope that it'll be too hard to put into practice. Does every single boy learn at an extremist Madrassa in Afghanistan and Pakistan? No--many mothers and fathers won't send them there, even with it being free, for many reasons. Have the extremists ever conquered an entire territory and run it? They have gotten Iran, but people everywhere fight against them both overtly and in small ways, as people always will against such things. It is looking like that regime won't be in power forever. I have hope.

Secondly, I don't think we're going to have to emulate the historical examples perfectly in order to protect ourselves. I think we should look to them as examples and then put our own stamp on the process. We already have proven many wrong since the birth of our nation, those who thought a democratic republic would never last or not be able to stand up to outside attacks. We can do it again, but we'll need better leadership than what we have now. Our current administration wants us to be something we aren't--an oligarchy or a tyranny of some sorts. That's not who we are, and we need to change our leadership to be more true to what our Founding Parents put into place.

Thirdly, as I have said before, I'm not against all war or using our troops at all, but I think we have to be very careful how and where we use them. A combined effort might work, but it also might blow up in our faces, as the Mau Mau incident did with the British. That incident wasn't as successful as you portray it, and I know there was at least one thread here talking about it.

Fourthly, I don't have as negative a picture of our nation as you seem to. Our police do a better job than you give them credit for. Granted, they're not perfect, but there are ways to fix that with good political leadership, community pressure, investigations into any corruption, and funding them properly.

Our schools put out better graduates than you think--kids who not only know how to analyze but also can communicate well. I'm a product of the public schools, and I even was a high school English teacher. I was always impressed with my students, even as I was depressed by the system or whatever, as they often rose to the challenge and did better than anyone would've imagined. There is much to be hopeful for in the coming generations, just as there is much work to do to make everything better for them.

Do we have many obstacles and hurdles in our path? Yes, of course we do, as we always have. That's nothing new. There's still hope, though. I honestly don't think that al Qaeda's stated objective of fighting until we're a Muslim nation will ever happen. We're not a completely Christian nation and never have been, regardless of what our Christian extremists say and want. We are a unique, interesting, amazing country, and there's always hope that we will come out of this dark time. We survived the British, we survived our oligarchs, we survived the fascists (granted, they're back and more insidious than ever, but we can beat them again), we survived the Communists, we have survived our darker selves--and we are still here.

We're not beaten yet. :patriot:
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. On two of your points we are ultimately in agreement. On the others...
our differences are substantial -- pivotal enough to influence our entire respective analyses.

I never meant to imply (as you suggested in "Secondly") that we must faithfully emulate earlier historical examples to protect ourselves against the Jihadist threat, and if that is the impression you got, the fault is wholly mine: I apologize accordingly. (Note to self: never attempt serious writing -- even for pleasure -- when punchy from a full day of serious writing for pay.) The point I was trying to make is simply that the history of all such anti-insurrectionist efforts is ominous, not the least because the countries and empires with the best records of "success" (used here NOT as a value judgement but in the police/military sense of achieving the objective) are often those with the very worst records on human rights: the Roman Empire (note especially the suppression of Queen Boudicca's Rebellion); Imperial Spain (especially the Inquisition, which burned people in the Americas as savagely as it did in Europe); the cited British, Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires, etc. Measured in terms of the extent to which the rebellion was suppressed, British "success" against the Mau Mau insurgency, which you mentioned in "thirdly," was total: Kenya remained a colony for another dozen years, and its subsequent liberation was not by revolution but by act of the British parliament. In imperial politics, "success" is always duration: the Roman Empire (including Byzantium) lasted nearly a thousand years; its Spanish, French, German, English and Austro-Hungarian descendants spanned another half a millennium. For revolutionaries so exterminated, oppression is forever.

I very much agree we should cherry-pick the lessons of history as appropriate and put our own (hopefully democratic) stamp on the methods so derived. I emphatically agree -- here again referencing your "thirdly" -- we have to be very careful how and where we use our troops. Indeed a major part of my differences with the administration over Iraq concerns (A)-the wanton squandering of our military's individual lives there (an expression of Bush's more general contempt for working Americans) and (B)-the resultant Iraqi civilian casualties -- including the grievances these casualties provide the insurgents.

Where we differ -- and this is a difference that colors our entire analysis -- is in our estimates of enemy capabilities (your "first of all") and the capabilities our own nation.

History is unequivocal in demonstrating the aggressive hostility of Jihadist Islam toward all non-Islamic cultures and peoples, and even (as in the present-day Sudan) toward Islamic peoples reckoned "inferior" merely because they are not of Arabic descent. Jihadist Islam has been at war with the great civilizations of our planet since 629 AD, when Muhammed conquered Mecca and disposed of all its non-Islamic inhabitants with unmitigated savagery. Not only was Western Europe twice invaded (the battle of Tours in 732 and the battle of Vienna in 1683); Eastern Europe was constantly wracked with warfare against Jihadists. Likewise Asia: the incredibly ancient Vedic civilization of the Indian subcontinent was utterly destroyed by the Jihadist onslaught -- so ravaged, a tiny band of British mercenaries called the East India Company was able to conquer the entire region in the 1700s. The bloody record of Jihad continues unabated into the modern era: 9/11 is merely one of its most recent chapters. Hence I stand on my estimate: the Jihadis are the most determined, capable and ultimately malicious enemy civilization (whether Western or Asiatic) has ever faced. History proves it beyond even a scintilla of doubt: no other adversary has ever come close, whether in individual zealotry or collective duration.

My estimate of U.S. capabilities is indeed negative. It is the byproduct of covering U.S. sociology and politics via a journalism career that spans nearly 45 years. My analysis is further shaped by (often bitter) lessons learned as an activist in the Civil Rights, anti-Vietnam War, Back-to-the-Land and alternative-press movements. My view is also also profoundly influenced by what I saw and experienced as a Vietnam-era Regular Army enlistee serving overseas (though not in Vietnam).

Probably the very best source ever on America's chronic ineptitude at foreign affairs (and all the reasons for it) is the Lederer/Burdick epic The Ugly American, which reveals all the spoils-system cronism, bureaucratic pettiness, careerism and anti-intellectuality of the U.S. diplomatic corps: it is as relevant now as it was in 1959. Another superb source is United States Marine Corps Col. William R. Corson's The Betrayal (Norton, 1968) which reveals how inter-service rivalry undermined the U.S. effort in Vietnam and therby exposes another of the realities -- specifically vicious political back-stabbing spawned by the careerist ethos of so many U.S. officials -- that constantly hamstrings even the best-intentioned American efforts abroad.

As to the U.S. educational system, I am probably uniquely qualified to comment on it: I have covered public schools for four newspapers in three regions, and as a college instructor during the late '70s and early '80s, I have surely helped cure some of the victims of the public-school-system's operational disease of anti-intellectuality. Though I no longer teach, I have ongoing connections to academia, and I am convinced our current crop of public-school students are hopelessly crippled by a combined, carefully conditioned inability to think logically -- a deficit bolstered by methodically induced aversion to all such thinking -- both ailments the educational-policy expression of the corporate oligarchy's demand for employees whose total reflexes are reduced to naught but zomboid obedience. The fortunate few who escape such conditioning seem to do so only through the increasingly rare gateway of intellectual parents and home libraries heavy on the classics. Nor is the problem anything new: it has been a long time coming. Indeed I was nearly one of public education's victims myself: born in 1940, I attended atrocious public schools in the South, one superb public school in the North, one mediocre public school in the North, and a parochial school in the South, Roman Catholic and taught by nuns. During the entire dozen years, only the parochial school provided me with genuine education -- that is, organized encouragement of intellectual curiosity and training in logical thinking, questioning and ferretting out information. Moreover, the academic discipline of parochial school required I constantly do my best work. By comparison (with the very notable exception of two classes taught by one truly remarkable English teacher), my public school years were unbroken terms of utter wretchedness and sheer boredom: mind and body straitjacketed in the rigid mandatory motionlessness precursory to success in the corporate workplace. Probably all that saved me from the rebellion of juvenile delinquency or self-destruction via alcohol and drugs was getting an after-school job at a morning newspaper when I was 16.

As to the capabilities and nature of local police departments, I have covered crime in five states and New York City, and as a result of my movement involvements, I have also been, as it were, on the opposite side of the police line in most of these locales. But I have found the cops are everywhere the same: some are superb officers and compassionate human beings, many are mediocre, a tiny fraction are genuine savages, and a few -- invariably at key levels in the chain-of-command -- are obscenely corrupt (though this is absolutely not to imply that all police commanders are crooked.) Moreover the corruption is encouraged by the system: it is merely the law-enforcement expression of the fact that in the United States everything is ultimately about money (or the status money can purchase) and that our nation therefore has -- precisely as my fellow skeptics so often say -- "the finest politicians money can buy." A superb book on the topic of police corruption and why it is endemic to U.S. society (and capitalism in general) is On the Take: from Petty Thieves to Presidents, by sociologist William J. Chambliss (Indiana University Press, 1978; second edition 1988). Chambliss' research totally confirms my overall impression of U.S. policing: that its notable successes are invariably the result of the ability of a rare few to overcome inertia -- and sometimes, as in the Serpico case, violent opposition. Bottom line (and during the relevant parts of my newspaper career I had some exceptionally close and absolutely dependable police sources), U.S. police departments are never more or less than the politicians who control these organizations will allow them to be. The hidden issue is therefore the politicians' real fear that greater police efficiencies demanded by defense against Jihadist terrorism will spill over into greater police efficiencies against the graft and corruption that any real journalist knows is endemic to American society. Again, I urge you to read Chambliss for a true picture of how the system really works: the terrifying possibility of Jihadis buying off police and politicians is implicit. So is the inevitability that the politicians (and the plutocrats who own them) will abuse increased police powers for their own tyrannical purposes.

Even so, I am not quite as negative as I may appear. I agree whole-heartedly with you when you say, "... we'll need better leadership than what we have now. Our current administration wants us to be something we aren't--an oligarchy or a tyranny of some sorts. That's not who we are, and we need to change our leadership to be more true to what our Founding Parents put into place." This is a profound statement because it expresses precisely the essence of the entire present-day political conflict in the United States: a bitter and now-rapidly escalating fight over who we are, and who we shall be. My negativity arises from three facts: (A)- that never in history has the U.S. been so intellectually ill-prepared for this sort of battle; (B)- that, specifically because of our intellectual deficits, our internal adversaries -- the capitalist oligarcy and its Christofascist stormtroops -- have been able to manipulate the Jihadist threat into a cover under which to impose their global New Order: obscene wealth and power for the few, defacto slavery for the many, theocracy (whether Christian or Islamic) to control and opiate the masses; and (C)- that the pivotal, truly terrifying difference between the modern crisis and all other such turning-points in U.S. history is that now -- unlike all those other occasions -- we on the Left have neither leaders (whether present or potential) nor analysis (such as the clash of Marxism and Fascism provided during the New Deal years) capable of healing the horrendous vacuum of leadership and ideas. Throughout history, when other such empires, nations, cultures and civilizations reached this impasse, they were irrevocably doomed. The one tiny candle-flame of hope I see in all this darkness is Democratic Underground itself: the faint but deliciously compelling possibility some of the political debate on this site heralds genuinely radical reawakening.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I never meant to call your credentials into question.
I do think, however, that it's hard to evaluate education. I used to think when I taught that tests should be done years later, as most knowledge doesn't sink in and get used for years.

Every teacher blames the ones before all the way back to Kindergarten teachers. I have never known a college prof who didn't look at high school English teachers with the highest disdain, blaming us for everything from poor grammer to poor college writing skills. No matter how many times I tried to explain that we teach different writing styles (more business-oriented because of outside pressure than college-oriented) and that often there's no money or time in the curriculum for intense grammar reviews, it never made any difference. It was always my fault.

At some point, we need to put that on the students themselves. They choose to cheat, plagiarize, lie, and flat-out not read assignments. Yes, some of the reasons are valid (so busy they're not getting enough sleep, etc.), but there are choices involved. However, do we really see many people in our society taking responsibility for their choices? The kids aren't making it up--they're learning it.

Another issue I've been pondering is how we're all kept so busy. If we're all too busy and medicated to know what's going on, then we're easy pickings for bad politicians. Take teenagers, for example: most are in school, then go to work (to pay for toys, cars, college, school bills, rent, whatever), then get home late (forget the laws being enforced on breaks and hours for minors), eat quickly and unhealthily, cram in some homework, chat with friends, and then go to bed only to repeat it early the next morning. Shove in sports, clubs, parties, boyfriends and girlfriends, shopping, drinking . . . you get the picture. Most teens are too busy trying to get from day to day to get all worried about politics. I don't think they're the only ones.

How can we fight that? How can we get the American people off the Soma in order to see what's really happening? Sites like DU help, but I think it's going to take a real re-ordering of society and our rules in order for change to happen. I often wonder what it will take to make that happen. Book clubs help, as more and more eyes are opened that way, but we need some real leadership to get all these individuals to become a movement for change.

It's the corruption from within and the "sleeping" public that makes us a perfect target for our enemies. It might take more attacks to wake us all up, as we were lulled back to sleep not long after 9/11 (which was encouraged by our President). It might take a real Democrat or third party leader to get through all the haze and make everyone realize what's really happening. Consider how many didn't vote in the last election: that percentage alone makes us weak.

I know this isn't a perfect answer to your very well-written and thought-out post, but it's my start. I agree that radical Islam has a problematic history, but I also see a similar history in other movements. Frankly, I'm more worried about reactionaries here in the States and the public that just doesn't seem to know or care what's happening. I agree that our education and public safety systems aren't perfect and need a lot of work, but I also think that, if we all were to wake up from our haze, there'd be change. It's happened in our history before, and it can happen again.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I never shared the anti-teacher bias of so many college faculty types...
mostly because of my politics, also because over the years a couple of my significant-other lady friends were themselves public school teachers. Instead of blaming the teachers -- many of whom I know work desperately hard to overcome the public-school malaise -- I always blamed (and still blame) the system itself. As to the Big Business influence over curriculum and methodology, look at any school board.

Essentially my view is that workers cannot be blamed for being part of an oppressive system -- especially when that is their only alternative to starvation. Hence my huge and often venomous difference with the {pseudo} Left, for example over attacking loggers for the depredations of the timber barons. What we should be fighting -- in solidarity with the loggers -- are the environmentally ruinous practices {like clear-cutting as opposed to selective logging} that throw ever more loggers out of work. Instead, in expression of the venomous class-hatreds of the bourgeois {pseudo} Left, the loggers themselves are targeted, and our ranks are thus ever more divided: a classic example of the consequences of the anti-intellectually I mentioned in my earlier posts.

I didn't think you had challenged my credentials: not at all. I have assumed your good will from the very beginning of this (very enjoyable) dialogue. I was merely explaining where I was coming from.

Was unaware book-clubs were also discussing these issues but am delighted to learn that is true. If you have some links I might explore, please feel free to suggest them.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Book clubs in this area are.
The Kalamazoo Public Library has had a town reading program that picks a new book every year for the whole area to read and then discuss. The second year was Nickle and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America by Barbara Ehrenreich, and it was amazing to see how that played out in town. The first year was Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. Personally, I've wondered if that was part of the reason we were able to convince so many people to vote for Kerry and win the county.

http://www.kpl.gov

I've also run into women involved in book clubs through their churches that are reading progressive stuff (or at least novels that make one think). Oprah is doing some interesting stuff this summer--we'll see if the connections are made or not.

I'm so glad that you didn't think I was attacking your credentials in any way. I was worried about that. Whew! One less thing to worry about . . .

I totally agree about the systems being the problem. Individuals can make a huge difference, but then a mob mentality slips in and makes the miracles that need to occur in education especially very hard to bring about. One starts hearing, "We've never done it that way," or, "You don't know the story behind that, so don't mess with it." Admins start picking on "problem" teachers (usually the bad ones and also the ones who question everything, as good teachers should), and everyone starts bunkering down in their rooms. My mom, a high school art teacher of 35 years, was once written up for not having a school-issued calendar on her desk. I kid you not. That kind of crap happens everyday in the schools, and it wears everyone down.

That's a good point about class and classism being at the root of the Party's problem in many areas. I completely agree. I grew up in a farming area, and too many farmers are Republican. We can and should reach out to them. We can reach many who have decided not to vote by fighting for what's really important: national health care system, better schools, better auditing and oversight of public funds, safer and stronger communities (both from attacks from within and without), and more opportunities to move up the class system.

Those are all huge issues and mostly intertwined. I couldn't teach children who were too sick to learn and couldn't get better (parents couldn't afford it). The schools would have better budgets if there were better oversight on expenditures and less involvement of corporations. If we were able to help the poor get richer rather than poorer, our country would get stronger. It's all one, and it's what the Democratic Party does best.

I'm going to see what I can do to get more involved with the Party this year, especially before my shop opens up. I know it might cost me customers, but I figure that there are plenty of Republicans doing the same thing. Why can they get away with it?
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Though I live in Washington, Michigan is my favorite state. If I may...
have your permission to PM you, I'll explain why (PMing it because I don't want to transmit too much autobiographical information in the open). I'll also be a bit more detailed about my politics and where they come from. And I agree that what we are talking about is what the Democratic Party used to do best (i.e., the New Deal) and could indeed do again. Desperately needed, too -- maybe now even more than back in '32.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Sounds good.
I agree on the being careful thing. I'm a little gunshy myself after what happened to Andy.

At the vigil the other night, there were many people there basically saying they want the Democratic Party back. I think we have a base that needs better leadership and a base-to-be watching to see what we're going to do.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
25. i supported the first gulf i supported kosovo..... dont tell me i am anti
war. i am anti fuck up.

that brings that conversation about to an end
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