The Camp Casey Crosses should NOT go back up

[Modem Butterfly]

Instead, they should be replaced with a symbol that actually represens ALL of those who have died, and does not exclude people based on their religion, or freedom from religion.

[Walt Starr]

1. They weren't all crosses

Included were Stars of David and Islamic Crescents based upon the religion of the fallen serviceperson.

[bribri16]

30. They still should not go back up. Leave them lay as evidence as to

what kind of people support Bush. This is their legacy!! Snap photos and show the service men and women who have returned from Iraq. And let them know who did it.

[kath]

44. What about agnostics (a question mark?) or atheists (a zero, perhaps)?

:-)

[mikeytherat]

70. Atheists get an atom (seriously!)

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org/funeral_information/authorized_emblems.html

(don't know 'bout agnostics)

mikey_the_rat

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. We should have something for the Iraqis too... esp the babies and kids

[OneBlueSky]

3. good point . . . and one that I had not considered . . .

let's not assume that every American killed in Iraq is of one particular religion . . . something generic would be more appropriate, imo . . .

[arwalden]

4. I Think Little Miniature Flag-Draped Coffins All Lined Up...

... along the side of the road.

Or better yet... LIFE SIZED flag-draped coffins (boxes)!

[cliss]

5. I disagree.

There is something riveting about the crosses. It's undeniable. It's inescapable. Bush can't run from it.

This is a very concrete, tangible symbol of what he has done.

I think it's very hard for him to deal with this. These crosses, so close to his hideaway. And I think they're turning him into a babbling idiot. I say add more, if anything. But in our western culture, this is how we memorialize the dead.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. This is not how our western culture memorializes the dead

This is how Xian culture memorializes the dead. The two are not the same. It is possible to have a concrete, tangible symbol that is not exclusionary. But if the folks at Camp Casey insist on using exclusionary symbols, they can't say that they are respecting or honoring our fallen.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

11. It's how nearly all of the Right Wing memorialize their dead...

I like using the cross in this case as an in-your-face reminder of their hypocrisy.

[Modem Butterfly]

13. If that's the goal, it ceases to be a memorial to the dead.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

23. Well, yeah...

Memorials are always about the living -- the dead could frankly care less what we erect in a Texas drainage ditch.

[Modem Butterfly]

31. Not really

You should take a look at the Oklahoma City Memorial, the Vietnam War Memorial, or the Civil Rights Memorial. Those are very powerful memorials that do not rely on religious symbolism. The Oklahoma City Memorial, IMHO, makes excellent use of the empty chair as a symbol of absence.

[marions ghost]

71. yes, bringing the crosses to Crawford was

right to the point. That's WHY the neanderthal guy wanted to mow them down in some kind of primitive rage. It's also interesting that rightwing counter protestors put American flags on the crosses. "Arlington West" is definitely touching people where it hurts.

[SnowGoose]

7. I understand your point

(I'm not religious myself).

But it's worth remembering that the crosses (and Stars of David, etc.) are a form *symbolic* communication. They carry an understood meaning without the use of words, and that's why pictures of them are so effective, even in 2-second snippets or static images.

Even as a nonreligious person, I understand immediately that each of these crosses represents a dead human being - and I'm sure you do too. That's their usefulness - not as a tribute to each individual's uniqueness (like their individual grave markers) but rather to the lost human beings in their aggregate.

I appreciate reading your posts, which generally catch my eye now, because I've been impressed with the points you've made in the past, and I'm not trying to make you come around to my way of seeing this issue. I just wanted to offer another view for you to digest.

All the best.

[Modem Butterfly]

10. There's the rub

When the symbol overshadows the fact of the life it is used to signify, you've crossed the line between memorialzing the dead and political advertisement.

[Marnieworld]

59. How bout Tombstones everybody?

They are also "symbols" easily recognized without adding religion. It should have been the only choice ever. Tombstone with name and dates. I agree that the crosses are an odd choice considering that is not what is in Arlington "east".

[mike_c]

8. MB, I'm an atheist, and I completely agree with the core sentiment...

...of your post, but in this instance I must agree with those who have pointed out that the symbolism of those white crosses is obvious and powerful.

[Al-CIAda]

82. It is obviously the case, and to deny the use or employ of such

acessable and immediattely impactful forms is to completely miss the intent.

This was an organic, semi-spontanious effort in doing this. There is a danger in overthinking and 'critiquing', IMO.

[shaniqua6392]

9. I think the way they decided to do it was perfect.

The only other thing they could do that was not religious symbolism, was to use something that resembled a tombstone. One thousand tombstones would also be extremely powerful symbolism. I do not think one should read too much into whether they were crosses or other symbols of religion. It is just to get people to think about the realities of war.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. Why not 1,000 American flags?

How about 1,000 pairs of empty boots?

Or 1,000 photographs?

Or 1,000 empty chairs?

There are many powerful, non-exclusionary symbols they can use.

[ken-in-seattle]

21. The Damn thing is called "Arlington West"

What part of that is hard to understand? Have you never seen the original Arlington National Cemetary? I have several relatives and ancestors buried there and the design of the AW memorial does not take a freakin rocket scientist to figure out.

I am a rabid anti Thoe-fascist but the constitutional seperation of church and state does not mean you must revise reality.

The memorial includes crosses, cresents and stars, and I am sure if you could prove a fallen soldier was a wiccan then a broomstick or whatever the appropriate symbol is would be included at both the original and the memorial.

[WilliamPitt]

22. Don't bother

This person has decided to be offended by someone else's protest. That's cool. Maybe she'll gather 2,000 pairs of boots or 2,000 flags or whatever and make the situation more to her liking. In the meantime, she's just going to sit in front of a computer and complain, and you won't get anywhere trying to explain things. It is what it is.

[Mr_Spock]

25. One person has decided they would do it differently - that's nice

I think the memorial was beautiful - and should be redone - and that's my humble opinion. Since I didn't think of it and am not suffering there, I wouldn't criticize her if I didn't like it. If they move it to the new property it will be relatively safe there as well.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. You know what Will Pitt? I voiced my opinion

If that's no longer allowed in your world, you're welcome to put me on ignore. I'm not going to stop just because you don't like it.

[WilliamPitt]

34. And I have voiced mine right back

Don't give me the old DU Double Blind (I voiced an opinion but am pissed at you for voicing one back so put me on ignore, bla bla bla).

You don't like it, you can lump it. I think you're wrong. I think an important symbol of anti-war resistance was destroyed last night, and it seems to me like you are spitting on the splinters left behind in that destruction.

[Modem Butterfly]

36. I think you are attempting to silence dissension

Blind allegiance on the left is just as bad as blind allegiance on the right. If the goal of the crosses was to memorialize the dead, then now that they have been run over and the camp is to be moved, a more universal symbol should be used. If the goal of the crosses was to make a political point, then they should stop calling it a memorial.

[WilliamPitt]

38. LOL

Yeah, that's what I'm doing.

Hee.

Been a long time since I've been called a censor around here. You're funny. Lose an argument and cry censorship. That's a new one. Or something.

:eyes:

Try harder next time.

[Modem Butterfly]

48. No one called you a censor, Will Pitt

And no one has cried censorship.

In my experience, the person who is forced to resort to lies is the one who has lost an argument.

Honestly, Will Pitt, if you can't handle someone having a different opinion on this topic, you need to put me on ignore.

[WilliamPitt]

51. "I think you are attempting to silence dissension"

Um...

[Modem Butterfly]

53. Yeah.

Thanks for proving my point, Will Pitt.

:rofl:

[WilliamPitt]

55. Wow

You argue like a cat stuck in a bag. Pretty entertaining, if a little pathetic.

Let the little guy out. He's flailing all over the place.

[Modem Butterfly]

56. Thanks for going personal, Will Pitt.

I guess I hit a nerve.

[Mr_Spock]

57. "I guess I hit a nerve." - um, you're own?

:rofl:

[WilliamPitt]

58. Yeah

The one that runs under your flailing tongue. :)

[Mr_Spock]

42. :rolleyes:

yeah, post a forceful declaration concerning a hard working anti-war person and get all bent out of shape when people dissagree. Who is silencing dissention now?? :eyes:

[ken-in-seattle]

28. Thanks Will

I have calmed down now. BTW I have decided you can speak for me any time ya like. Good work at truthout.

[Modem Butterfly]

24. What's your point?

I think that the memorial, if it is to truly be a memorial, should be rebuilt with non-divisive symbols. It doesn't matter to me if it's named after Arlington, Pere Lachaise or Mount Auburn. If it matters to you, I would think the fact that it is named after Arlington would be a strong argument for a near-universal head-stone style posting with a religious symbol drawn on.

[WilliamPitt]

26. But isn't the drawn-on religious symbol exclusionary

by your way of thinking?

[Modem Butterfly]

33. That's only if you want to keep with the Arlington motif

[WilliamPitt]

35. Well

These are military families who have lost children to this war. The Arlington motif is entirely appropriate.

Shouldn't you be out collecting boots?

[Modem Butterfly]

39. If they want to use that, then that's their right

But I still have a right to my opinion, even in Will Pitt's America.

[VelmaD]

41. Wow...that's quite some obsession...

with Will you've got going there. And here I thought I was his number one groupie. *snort*

[Modem Butterfly]

52. Actually, this is the first time I've posted to him since the Andy thing

I don't even encounter him all that often in GD.

[WilliamPitt]

46. It's MY island.

[Mr_Spock]

49. LMAO

:D

[Mr_Spock]

29. We've gathered you would do it differently - but it wasn't your idea

and you didn't put it up. If you don't liek it then create your own display on your own property. She doesn't work for the government.

[Modem Butterfly]

32. And this is my opinion

Don't like it, put me on ignore. I'm not going to stop posting just to suit you and Will Pitt.

[Mr_Spock]

37. Grumble grouse piss moan

Geez, can't take being challenged on an issue that YOU freely brought up via a special effort on YOUR part to post this forceful DECLARATION here? Get over yourself - I've got better things to do that put someone on ignore who is having a bad day.

[Modem Butterfly]

40. I just figured I'd warn you

This hardly qualifies as a forceful declaration. But if you want to read it in that way, that's your right.

[Mr_Spock]

47. "The Camp Casey Crosses should NOT go back up"

NOT NOT NOT

What does all caps stand for then if not strong emphasis?

Is that statement NOT a declaration?

I read it that way because that is how it reads to me. Call me crazy.

[Modem Butterfly]

67. Okay, you're crazy

The "not" was capitalized to differentiate the thread title from all of the other Camp Casey Cross threads.

[Mr_Spock]

54. "I'd warn you"

Please don't hit me :scared:

[Junkdrawer]

14. Well, appropriating their?? symbol seems to have gotten their goat...

...and I think that's a good thing.

[Modem Butterfly]

16. I think anything would have gotten that particular loon's goat

And anyway, goat-getting shouldn't be a goal in a memorial that's ostensibly to honor the dead.

[ArkDem]

Perhaps, big tents would be more appropriate.

[WilliamPitt]

15. There are Muslim crexcents and Stars of David in the cemetery

No one is being excluded.

[Modem Butterfly]

17. FYI, there are more than three religions in the world

You know, just saying...

[jonnyblitz]

18. only the patriarchal sky gods are deemed worthy...

:P

[WilliamPitt]

20. Yes there are

and I'd bet, given the deeply conscientious nature of the people who have assembled and cared for Arlington West, that if any American Buddhists or Hindus or members of other religions had died in Iraq, their grave would be marked appropriately.

Sitting in judgment is easy.

[Mr_Spock]

19. Thanks for the information

The OP's declaration doesn't speak for me - and I'm not a religious person.

[alkaline9]

43. I am with you 100%

I am not of a Xian religion. I find things like "God" on currency and in the pledge of allegiance offensive.

That being said... I have no problem with "Camp Casey" setting up a cross for every soldier, but they should not say that it is a memorial. You can't have it both ways (as Modem Butterfly has pointed out many times). Either this is a symbol to "get BushCo's goat" as some have mentioned ... or it's a memorial.

Making the memorial be the same thing that is aimed to upset someone else (Bush in this case, but it could be anyone) is JUST WRONG! Not only does the memorial generalize the deaths and memory of the fallen soldiers in a Xian light, it also succeeds in provoking another "battle" so to speak, with the pResident.

I'll say it again to clarify.. Make these crosses in the ground represent EITHER a memorial for the fallen soldiers in which they should not be crosses, or make them a symbol of BushCo's errors.

Crossing over and making them represent both is no better than the right wing saying that you're un-American if you don't support the war.

Is that what you were trying to get at Modem?

[MindPilot]

45. As many of you know, I'm one of the staunchest Atheists on DU

and I don't think the crosses should go back up, but not for the reasons you cite.

In this case the crosses are not necessarily a symbol to represent each fallen soldier as an individual but the aggregate loss suffered by the country. As such the cross is a universally understood marker and symbol.

Now that those symbols have been desecrated, the symbolism is much more powerful.

Point to those broken markers and trampled flags, and say "this is how the Larry Northerns of the world honor the fallen."

On edit: We have never had a better opportunity to take the high moral ground. Here we have a guy--a perfect representative of the Bush supporter--who hates the idea of peace and the expression of freedom so much he is willing to desecrate the United States flag, the Christian cross, and soldiers' graves.

[lukasahero]

60. Wow.

That would be a most powerful statement indeed.

Of course there's always the "American resilience" that would be demonstrated if they did put them back up...
:dilemma:

[MindPilot]

65. I agree on the resilience thing

but I think now what we have is not so much a memorial to the dead soldiers as a very graphic symbol of the destruction Bush and his followers have wrought on this country and the world.

And in the end, that's what this is really all about.

[Cleita]

50. Lighten up. They are meant to symbolize Arlington National

cemetary, not as a religious statement.

[RetroLounge]

61. Well, then get off your ass and drive down there

and do something about it.

or make your own memorial. This one isn't yours.

RL

[lukasahero]

62. And the voice of reason has arrived. Thank you. eom

[Mr_Spock]

63. Tell me about it

Declaration post like this just serve as flame-bait. Don't like it? Go change it yourself!! Exactly!!

[Modem Butterfly]

66. Unfortunately, that decision has been made

The crosses are going back up. Which is a shame, because IMHO, I think it would have been the perfect time for a more universal symbol.

In any event, we already have our own memorial. I would hope many folks would.

[RetroLounge]

68. Well, I guess it's not about you then.

IMHO

RL

[Pobeka]

64. I would normally stay out of this, but the crosses need to go back up.

I don't know beans about the each fallen soldiers' religion.

But I know what a memorial is, and it was placed with the *best* of intentions. People can only act based on their own experience, and it is the act of honoring, of remembrance which is important, not the symbols.

--

And rather than leaving the crosses on the ground as a reminder of how some in this world support the troops, I hope they go back up, as a strong message to the country of how *we* treat the troops.

We are the ones who care. We are the ones, despite the efforts of the non-caring GOP government, who actually take action and make the troops' lives better by fighting for more pay and the health care they need when returning from war.

[marions ghost]

69. exactly

the crosses should go back up as a symbol of overcoming hate. Everybody who's been following this knows they were knocked down.

As for the questioning of the crosses themselves, it seems to be a bit late (!?) for a complete makeover of a symbolic statement. I'm sure just getting them all back up will be hard enough. Not a helpful suggestion. A symbol of Star of David, or Crescent, or Buddhist Wheel or whatever other symbols are used at Arlington--on a stick--should suffice under the limitations of the project. The truth is, a large majority of those killed in Iraq did call themselves Christians (70%). Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews are each less than 1%. The significant minority specifying themselves as "no preference" (25%) probably wouldn't have a preference about this either. I don't think these guys were checked in according to religious affiliation when they got to heaven.

[ibegurpard]

72. Amen.

Or whatever non-exclusionary word you use to express agreement.

[Texasgal]

73. Hey MB

I'd like to know what YOU are doing to honor these victims of war?

Do you have pics of YOUR memorial?

Does it not bother you at all that there are people out there at Camp Casey working for change? They are busting their asses trying to make a point and all you can do is sit behind a computer and whine and complain?

Are you KIDDING me?

[Modem Butterfly]

74. Yes and no I won't post them

We have a memorial at our home. But after the reception I've gotten here, I am simply unwilling to post any pictures of it.

Does it not bother you at all that there are people out there at Camp Casey working for change?

I think it's a terrible thing that Camp Casey has to exist at all. The daily litany of death after death bothers me a great deal. But I am very glad there are people at Camp Casey and all over the US who are working for change.

They are busting their asses trying to make a point and all you can do is sit behind a computer and whine and complain?

:eyes:

You are also welcome to put me on ignore. I am going to continue to speak my mind and my opinion regardless of who doesn't like it.

[Texasgal]

75. Why not?

Why not post them?

I have a feeling that your posts would be so much more accepted if we saw you actually doing something to honor the dead.

Go ahead...post it.

I have a feeling that you won't, it wouldn't suprise me if you didn't have anything at all.

:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

77. I don't think so

I have a feeling that your posts would be so much more accepted if we saw you actually doing something to honor the dead.

Yeah, see, I don't. And they're my photos and my bandwidth, so I'm not going to waste the time.

I have a feeling that you won't,

Well I guess that makes you psychic, since I already said I wouldn't.

:evilgrin:

[Texasgal]

78. Oh...I am so shocked....

Your not gonna post your memorial? OH THE SHOCK.

If you want to get your point across and have more people try to understand your philosophy, then you would post your lil' tribute.

Until then... I don't know what to tell ya....

Que sara, sara.

[gkhouston]

81. well, since you won't have those photographs to entertain you

perhaps a quick refresher of DU's policy regarding civility would pass the time. You appear not to have seen them recently.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[Texasgal]

83. Please tell me what rules I have

broken.

Please.

[gkhouston]

86. quite a few of your replies to MB in this

thread verge on personal attacks.

[Texasgal]

89. Verge?

Or personal attacks? Which one is it?

Oh and MB hasn't exactly been pleasant on this thread either.

Alert my friend, that's what the mods are for.

[Pithlet]

84. She's broken no rules. n/t

[theboss]

76. God, I miss being in power

In the old days when Tip O'Neil was alive, we would be debating highway bills and Medicaid rates right now.


Instead, we are arguing about the proper way to protest.

[Texasgal]

79. Ridiculous

Isn't it?

I swear, some people on DU will find ANYTHING to argue about.

[meisje]

80. Wah Wah

Now I've heard it all

[LittleClarkie]

85. This isn't about religion, or lack there of.

It's about the troops. As if it mattered what was used. As if they checked the religion of each soldier and only paid tribute to the Christian ones.

Please stop this. It's not what the protest is about. At all.

It reminds me of the atheist group that wanted the memorials taken down that folks will put up where someone died, because they were crosses. So a teddy bear woulda been okay? The only defense the atheists in question could offer was highway safety, as people would be in danger as the put up the memorials. Because, you know, when you think atheism, you think "highway safety."

Most of the atheists who were in the group (alt.atheism) I was hanging with felt the same way. That was going too far.

It's about the dead. Get a grip.

[Pithlet]

87. I think they should go back up

Putting them back up the way they were is a powerful "fuck you" to the asshole that ran them down, and anyone that agrees with his actions, and is too important to weaken by replacing it altogether. While I may have personally preferred a different symbol used, as I'm an atheist, this wasn't my protest.

[LittleClarkie]

88. But the concern apparently isn't about the dead

but what damn religion they were.

I don't care. Put up little helmets. Crosses. Stars of David. Little fuck you fingers in a row.

Good God (Allah, Buddah, Jehovah, et al)

[Moderator]

90. Locking.

Considering how upset everybody is about the incident at the moment, this discussion might be better left to another day.