"Western" WHITE HOUSE? illegal. unconstitutional. outrageous!

[nashville_brook]

(here's a nashua advocate article from a while back -- With Camp Casey and the wildly successful Cindy vigils, the issue of a "western white house" is getting attention again. this frame piggybacks perfectly on the already successful Cindy meme. please read and understand why it is not acceptable to move the white house to texas!)


Did President Bush Violate the U.S. Constitution in Designating His Private Property in Texas the Seat of the Executive Branch of U.S. Government?

http://nashuaadvocate.blogspot.com/2005/04/did-president-bush-violate-us.html

On August 3, 2001, USA Today ran a story, entitled "White House to Move to Texas for a While," which should have raised some heads among average citizens and legal scholars alike, but, in the event, did not:

Six months after taking office, President Bush will begin a month-long vacation Saturday that is significantly longer than the average American's annual getaway. If Bush returns as scheduled on Labor Day, he'll tie the modern record for presidential absence from the White House, held by Richard Nixon at 30 days.
snip
White House officials point out that the president is never off the clock. They refer to the 30 days at his Texas ranch--now it's called the Western White House--as a working vacation. He'll receive daily national security updates and handle the duties of the Oval Office from his 1,583-acre spread near Crawford.
snip
Does any legal scholar in America doubt that the President can't move the White House, either formally or pragmatically, without prior Congressional approval?

[Greeby]

1. Violations of the Constitution in the age of Bush?

Yawn :boring: what else is new?


Edit: eek, look at that post count :yoiks:

[nashville_brook]

3. ACK! look at your number of posts!

demon!

just saying -- cindy's protest is emotionally successful. lets attach a LEGAL frame. being away from the authentic seat of government allows these guys to operate in total privacy.


uncool.

illegal.

[Skidmore]

6. Yowser!!! It's the Beast...

Doom!! Doom!!

[paineinthearse]

2. I miss Nashua Advocate

Hope he/she is OK!

[nashville_brook]

8. there was a post yesterday -- check it out.

John Roberts' Massive Conflict-of-Interest in Critical War on Terror Court Case, Hamdan, Should (But Won't Be) an Obstacle to His Nomination

Highly Decorated Judge Mysteriously Failed Remedial Ethics Test While Judge for D.C. Circuit, Was Job-Hunting With a Litigant While Presiding on That Litigant's Case (Hint: the Litigant Was and Is the Bush Administration)

[paineinthearse]

24. thanks! but...

Search turned up nada. Do you have a link?

[nashville_brook]

34. that would be nashuaadvocate.blogspot.com

the usual.

[CubsFan1982]

4. OK, if this is so, let's retroactively impeach the rest of the Presidents.

Bush is not the first President to "work from home". Every President since Washington has conducted government business from his home.

I really wish we'd stop trying to "get" the Administration on stupid shit like this. Let's stick to the obvious: illegal, immoral war, no bin Laden, things like that.

[nashville_brook]

7. this indicates a need to HIDE -- not to work "from home"

no president has ever declared their residence an annex of the white house. this is new. and there's law to back up why it's not acceptable.

we are a nation of laws. forums are too often given to frames and memes. this is a ready-made way to piggy-back a frame that has already taken hold to call him out of his hidey hole.

sure, the war is illegal, immoral and bin laden is missing -- this frame doesn't take away from those issues -- it lends credence to the fact that he is dealing from the bottom of the deck. this is the kind of thing average people can understand.

the cindy meme is bleeding into an overall examination of his vacationing -- use this.

or don't.

but don't blame the messenger for digging up something that can be of use.

[Telly Savalas]

12. So is the idea to bury him with criticism of excessive vacationing...

when he runs in 2008?

Call me batshit crazy, but I'd just assume criticism of Bush take the form of things that can be levelled against all Republicans. (e.g. Iraq, 45 million Americans without healthcare, etc.)

[nashville_brook]

22. it doesn't seem to you that he's fiddling while the country burns?

that's not an issue?

[burythehatchet]

68. I don't think so

He didn't need to hide. He and his cabal needed to be able to make final preparations for 9/11 without the scrutiny of the white house. No taped conversations, no logs, no phone records that are public property. See?

[nashville_brook]

78. that's exactly what i'm saying.

[Skidmore]

5. Count on this little gem---

"Does any legal scholar in America doubt that the President can't move the White House, either formally or pragmatically, without prior Congressional approval?"--

to give this do-nothing-but-blow-up-the-nation Congress something to keep them busy. You bet some half-baked zealous RWnut congressperson will hyperventilate while pushing legislation that calls for an "itinerate" WH in this "Age of Terror".

They've already handed him the nation's checkbook.

[nashville_brook]

15. if we are waiting for "congress" to run the country, then why bother

blogging, and passing "notes" on our DU forums?

our country was the first to be organized for the people, of the people. the founders thought long and hard -- FOUGHT long and hard -- to establish laws and acceptable means to govern.

the PLACE of government was a major part of that process. the seat of govenment was put in washington dc for a reason. he is in crawford a staggering 42% of his time. that's almost half of his time.

now think what would happen if Clinton moved the white house to new york and called it The Northern White House. or if Carter moved the seat of government to Atlanta and called it the SOUTHERN WHITE HOUSE??!!

this is an illegal act for which their is means to pursue redress. AND it piggybacks perfectly on Cindy's protest.

dig it.

[Skidmore]

16. I fully agree with you, and made a similar post several days

ago. However, you can count on the RW twisting themselves into pretzels trying to find a way to give * a little more power and to make an exception for him. It is just the sort of controversial issue that will keep the fires stoked and the nation boiling.

[nashville_brook]

19. the RW is irrwelevant -- let them make more "exceptions" for the

exceptional boy.

real people have enough.

-- The Founders did not want the Seat of Government in the United States to be bifurcated--or worse--in a geographic space spread across the length and breadth of the country. They believed, presumably, that doing so would fragment American government and reduce its effectiveness and even its authority (while, simultaneously, raising exponentially the transaction costs of running the affairs of the nation).

-- The Founders did not fight the American Revolution simply to reinstate some of the worst excesses of the pre-French Revolution monarchy: namely, a hereditary monarch whose control over the Seat of Government annually allowed him to control, as one would a marionette, say, every organ of government business. By removing itself to a remote location, the Executive Branch could, the Founders presumably reasoned, interfere with the proper functioning of other branches of government and place a disparate stock of power in the hands of the Executive Branch. With a "Western White House," the President A) need not open the space to the public, B) need not receive any person, in government or otherwise, he does not wish to receive, C) might not be obligated to disclose his business--and who he sees or does not see--to the American People, and so on.

-- The Founders established Washington as the nation's capital as a compromise between the Several States who were parties to the Constitutional Convention. To move the Seat of Government hundreds of miles to the west abrogates the intentions of all parties to the signing of the United States Constitution in a fashion which (had it been suggested, say, at the time) might well have nullified all such signatures to the Founding Document. In other words, the whole deal, the whole kit-and-kaboodle might have fallen through in 1789 had Crawford, Texas (of course, then a part of Mexico) been made the capital instead of Washington, which was the official compromise of the Several States then in existence at the time.

-- The Founders wanted the Seat of Government to be a publicly-accessible space, one which would effectively reify what Lincoln would eventually term--and the Founders certainly strove for--"a government of the people, by the people, for the people." Does a government which conducts its affairs, and makes its Seat, on a private ranch in Texas meet that standard? Does anyone doubt that Crawford, Texas was the Seat of Government during the 42% of the time Bush was there between January and September of 2001? Alternately, are any of you conservatives out there willing to concede publicly that Bush was hundreds of miles from the Seat of Government in the months leading up to September 11th?

-- the pResident wants to spend approximately 42% of his time at a private location, inaccessible to the People's representatives and indeed the People themselves, make it in every sense the Seat of Government, and then--through a trickery of signage--not be called on it. When, in fact, the sign does little more than confirm the President's unconstitutional intent in slithering off to his "Western White House."

[oneighty]

9. "The president is never off the clock"

A member of the military is never off the clock. Try selling that thought with your every day acquaintances.

180

[rwork]

11. I wonder

who will profit from the Multi- Million dollar improvements done to the ranch when bush* sells it? Kind of like the Texas Rangers new stadium when bush* was part owner.

[K-W]

10. This is a non-issue.

The constitution does not require the President always work in Washington, it simply requires that Washington remain the capital, which it has. If Bush started setting up federal offices in Crawford there would be an issue, but his doing his job (or whatever it is that he does) from his ranch does not qualify as a constitutional issue.

[nashville_brook]

17. it's an issue for those of us who still consider law to include the elite

First, that the notion of a "Seat of Government" is a constitutionally-prescribed precept. Second, that there is only one "Seat of Government," not two or three or thirteen. Third, Congress decides which one place will be the "Seat of Government," and Congress alone. Fourth, that the "Seat of Government" must rest on federal--that is, public--property, meaning property "purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be..."

The President's "Western White House" fails each and every one of these tests. Which means both that it isn't the "Western White House" and may not be called that, and that the President may not make his Crawford ranch the Seat of Government for the Executive Branch for any period of time, period. Meaning, he can vacation there but can't set up even semi-permanent operations (let alone 42%-of-his-reign operations) in the State of Texas, whatever his Chief Adviser thinks.

i'm going to put this forward and feel free to comment -- we have "given" him the right to move the seat of govenment because he's so damn "powerful." rich -- white -- whatever. it would do no "good" we opine, to try and hold him to standards of conduct that everyone else is held to. he is W. he is special. if you tell him he can't do something -- he looks at you with the chimpsters beady eyes, unknowing, unfeeling, non-communicative. he doesn't what he damn well pleases no matter what anyone thinks -- NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS. he's an exception to all the rules.

this is very much an issue because it fits perfectly with his overriding weakness -- his emperor's sense of entitlement.

well, we aren't a monarchy. he's our servant. not the other way around.

[K-W]

20. He hasnt moved the seat of government.

The president working alot from his ranch does not, under any stretch of the imagination qualify as moving the seat of government.

[nashville_brook]

23. he's planning WARS from CRAWFORD -- doesn't that seem to be a significant

operation of government. and won't it suck when we finally try to get the papers and records on what happened to lead us to war -- to 9-11 -- and there ARE NONE because, he was vacationing and any paper produced while at Crawford isn't available b/c, we don't have a RIGHT to anything produced at his PRIVATE RESIDENCE.

[K-W]

25. Significant, but nothing to do with the seat of government.

If he is attempting to evade transparency laws that is certainly an issue. But it doesnt suggest that he moved the seat of government.

It simply does not hold that he has made Crawford the US capital by doing state business at his ranch in Crawford. That is beyond a stretch.

The seat of the government is the capital which is still very much in Washington D.C.

So do please raise awareness about his evasion of transparency laws, but this seat of government thing is a total non-starter.

[nashville_brook]

58. from the Declaration of Independence

The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world....He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

"this seat of government thing is a total non-starter." :rofl:

[K-W]

59. That doesnt in any way relate to our conversation.

To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world....He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

When president Bush calls a meeting of the House of Representatives in Crawford let me know.

[nashville_brook]

64. to anyone who is reading this: use your imagination, see with your heart

there's a bunch of bruisers here who don't like what i'm saying. i'm not sure why... they aren't offering up much in the way of reason. but here's the thing... we have a shared history and a rich symbolic language specifically relating accessibility to the seat of government. we must be able to access them. they can't make it impossible for us to do that. other georges did that and it really pissed us off. it became a rallying cry. a touchstone.

i've offered nothing more than a pebble to put in your purse. you might be meeting new parents with school starting. maybe talking to the kids about their lessons in american history. well, this is our story -- to create laws in which civilized people conduct themselves. our laws have precedent. there are reasons why we didn't allow foreign policy, economic policy or war strategy to come out of anywhere except The People's House. The White House.

this is a supporting meme as you work through the larger issues Cindy Sheehan is facing. it's a supplement to discussion of whether she even had the right to be out there. why she had to move to private property to escape being SHOT.

folks wake up. we are not serfs. we shouldn't have to knock down the castle walls to get an "audience" with the prez.

[K-W]

66. So you want people to ignore the facts and go off emotion...

there's a bunch of bruisers here who don't like what i'm saying. i'm sure why...

Bruisers? Are you kidding me? You think trying to cast yourself as a victim supports your argument?

they aren't offering up much in the way reasoning.

You seem to be confused. It is you that has posted one bad legal argument over and over again along with things like a picture of Cindy Sheehan and a quote from the declaration of independence, neither of which even address your argument.

but here's the thing... we have a shared history and a rich symbolic language specifically relating accessibility to the seat of government. we must be able to access them. they can't make it impossible for us to do that. other georges did that and it really pissed us off. it became a rallying cry. a touchstone.

Now you are just spinning like a top. What King George did is not in any way shape or form the same or similar to what Bush is doing. That is a false comparison. Also, Bush hasnt moved the seat of government. Take a plane to Washington DC and find out for yourself, I promise you it is still there. And we can access Bush just as well in Crawford as we could in the White House.

there are reasons why we didn't allow foreign policy, economic policy or war strategy to come out of anywhere except The People's House. The White House.

Nowhere in our laws does it say all state business must be done in the white house. That is a complete fabrication. There were no reasons for it because it never happened.

this is a supporting meme as you work through the larger issues Cindy Sheehan is facing. it's a supplement to discussion of whether she even had the right to be out there. she had to move to private property to escape being SHOT.

I think this does more to distract from Cindy than to support her.

folks wake up. we are not serfs. we shouldn't have to knock down the castle walls to get an "audience" with the prez.

Yah, because when he is in Washington anyone off the street can go talk to him.

[nashville_brook]

77. folks, there are so many faults of logic in this post, it's hard to pick

where to start -- the most obvious to me is that i'm not actually making an arugument or laying out a theroy. i'm stating a fact -- actually a set of facts that you can either dig or not dig.

you can't pick where you want to run the country. you have to run it from the district. presidents have JOKINGLY referred to their vacation time as the "Blah-blah White House." but it was in jest -- and they weren't really supposed to making policy outside of the "public sphere." everyone knew it at the time. but now, we have forgotten that there was a serious reason to keep them critters in their cages -- you can't trust them. plain and simple.

it might SEEM like "good biz" to take the laptop home and get a few extra hours of administrative work in while you chill on the ranch, if you're not the leader of the free world. and at war. in two countries. it could be three by the time i finish this post.

you can connect with your history or not. it's not my concern. i'm just kicking it. whose america do you live in?

[theboss]

30. And Clinton probably planned things all over the world

Where does it say that any decision has to be made in the White House?

[ultraist]

76. Fine, he can work from his private home but don't call his home OUR WH!

[Bassic]

13. Stupid spoiled brat.

:mad:

[Telly Savalas]

14. Given Bush's track record for policy-making,

we'd all benefit if he spent the rest of his term on vacation. I see nothing to complain about here.

[NewJeffCT]

18. Reagan & Nixon did this, too

Wasn't it Nixon that first coined the phrase "Western White House" because he was at his California home so often? And, I'm sure it was a real issue, the media from back then would have brought it up, as they actually were journalists & reporters back then.

[nashville_brook]

21. they never claimed they were "on the clock" -- now think about this

maybe you work for a living -- i have. in an office setting there is always someone who simply doesn't measure up. uses all their sick days and uses the EXCUSE that they are taking their work home. we all know that's BS as we sit in our cubes, having gotten our sorry-asses out of bed, making it to work like the rest of the world.

Nixon and Reagan (shesh, you know it's bad when these guys are held up as role models) NEVER claimed they had an extra white house. when they took vacation it was just that -- vacation. time off. clearing brush.

they didn't claim -- like a the hungover office worker who "works from home" while everyone else makes the commute to their desk -- that they were "working."

and it doesn't matter if anyone made a stink about Nix and Raygun -- we're going to make a stink about this NOW. there are laws. there are standards of behavior. we are at WAR. we don't want WAR to be planned at someone's kitchen table. we expect a level of professionalism in our warmongers.

[K-W]

28. Not true, Bush's only change is the quantity of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_White_House

"The Western White House is the shared name given to several historic places of residence of the President of the United States outside of the White House in the midwestern and western regions of the United States. For example, Franklin Delano Roosevelt often resided and administered the duties of his office from the Royal Hawaiian Hotel in Honolulu, Hawaii during World War II. The hotel was called the Western White House during his stay.

Likewise, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan often retreated to their California homes during their presidencies. Nixon went to La Casa Pacifica in San Clemente, California, while Reagan spent nearly 1/8th of his presidency at his Rancho del Cielo in Santa Barbara County, California. Their homes were each dubbed the Western White House by the press."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1115590


"In the 1960s, the nation became accustomed to getting its White House news not just from Washington, but from a ranch in Texas owned by President Lyndon Baines Johnson. The LBJ Ranch was succeeded by President Richard Nixon's seaside residence at San Clemente California. Now, Americans will again have a "Western White House," this time in Crawford County, Texas"


http://www.imagesfromthepast.com/rrhr.html

"Peter Hannaford. Fascinating, often humorous anecdotes and more than 50 color photographs (many rarely seen) tell the story of the ranch: its rich history, how it compares to other Presidential retreats over the last 200 years, and how the Reagans acquired it and made it into a home of their own. Some of the people and events included are a behind-the-scenes look at the campaigns for the presidency; the challenges the ranch posed to the Secret Service; Queen Elizabeth's memorable visit in the pouring rain; visits by foreign counterparts, including Margaret Thatcher and Mikhail Gorbachev; the press's love affair with Santa Barbara; and numerous other accounts that range from dealing with threats to national security to the Thanksgiving Day menu. Hannaford captures Ronald Reagan's larger-than-life persona in every chapter."

[nashville_brook]

50. quality -- not quantity

put on your thinking cap:
http://nashuaadvocate.blogspot.com/2005/04/did-president-bush-violate-us.html

When Bush retreats to his ranch, aides say, the White House just changes location. "He'll be returning to Texas and operating out of Crawford," says Karen Hughes, counselor to the president, referring more to the small town where reporters will gather than the exact site of Bush's command center. He'll be 7 miles down narrow, winding Prairie Chapel Road.

snip

More importantly, to put the finest point possible on this previously unreported story: while it's true that the President could live in a shack in Anacostia if he wanted to, his official government residence--and, far more importantly, the constitutionally-prescribed "Seat of Government" (yes, that's an actual term from the U.S. Constitution)--must not only be on federal property, but must be in a "District" (there's that pesky Constitution again) designated by, you guessed it, the Congress.

there's also this:


here's a premise:

the President's declaration that the seat of the Executive Branch of government would, during the entirety of his Administration, and whensoever he might choose, be variously something other than property owned by the citizens of the United States--and in a "District" duly designated by the Legislative Branch as the Seat of Government--was an illegal act for which any member of the Legislative Branch could now seek immediate redress, remedy, and injunction in a court of law.

The President can vacation wherever he likes, but he cannot establish a "Western White House" and declare, as he has, that the operations of the Executive Branch of government will from time to time be conducted solely from a location that is, in no uncertain terms, his own private property.

refute it? :spank:

[nashville_brook]

51. er, i meant to say

[K-W]

54. that is the exact same argument youve made over and over again

and it hasnt gotten any more convincing.

Working out of his ranch does not qualify in any reasonable way as changing the seat of of government.

[nashville_brook]

56. Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 17. [In part].

"Powers Granted to Congress: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District...as may, by...the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of Government in the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be..."

COMMENTARY: So what does this tell us? First, that the notion of a "Seat of Government" is a constitutionally-prescribed precept. Second, that there is only one "Seat of Government," not two or three or thirteen. Third, Congress decides which one place will be the "Seat of Government," and Congress alone. Fourth, that the "Seat of Government" must rest on federal--that is, public--property, meaning property "purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be..."

The President's "Western White House" fails each and every one of these tests. Which means both that it isn't the "Western White House" and may not be called that, and that the President may not make his Crawford ranch the Seat of Government for the Executive Branch for any period of time, period. Meaning, he can vacation there but can't set up even semi-permanent operations (let alone 42%-of-his-reign operations) in the State of Texas, whatever his Chief Adviser thinks.

try again.

[K-W]

57. You can post that tortured argument as many times as you want.

It wont make it any more credible.

Bush isnt changing the capital of the nation by working out of his ranch and no spin or rationalization is going to change that.

[nashville_brook]

61. have you ever heard of this woman?

href="

why does she have to camp out in a ditch in texas with yahoos taking pot shots at her?

[K-W]

62. Nobody is challenging the fact that Bush is in Crawford,

so you can stop trying to prove it.

[Orangepeel]

26. there are so many real things to be outraged about

this is silly, IMO.

A president that actually does work, needs to work from everywhere, and Americans are going to believe that.

It'll be 1000 time more effective politically to keep focusing on vacation time.

[nashville_brook]

27. and you don't see how this calls out the vacation time?

we really are a mess aren't we.

i'm sorry to have wasted your time.

chow-der! :)

[Orangepeel]

32. I see how it conceeds he is working

Us: You spend too much time on vacation! If you were up to the job, the country wouldn't be in such a mess!

Him: I'm not on vacation! I'm working here in the "Western White House!"

Us: Well, then, you didn't have the authority to move the White House, so you are working illegally!

American Public: Huh?


And, no apologies are necessary. I wasted my own time by clicking on the link. ;-)

[nashville_brook]

35. you don't give the "american public" the benefit of the doubt that they

would understand this is against the rules? and that raises questions of secrecy.

i think you are mistaken. it's okay to disagree on this point, but the fact remains -- this is a story hook that anyone at a city desk could pitch to their editor with ease.

[Orangepeel]

45. *I* don't understand that it is against the rules

and I am WAY more accepting of the idea that bush is doing something wrong than is the general public.

Of course, we are free to disagree, both about the original point and the "fact" that it is a story that could be pitched with ease. The story, if run, is likely to be that liberals are insisting that bush not do any work outside of the White House, which sounds silly to me (as, I believe, it would to the general public).

[seemslikeadream]

47. Are you saying georgie works?

[nashville_brook]

49. this shows an alarming lack of understanding as to what it means to

serve in office.

[theboss]

29. This sort of thing makes us look stupid

Reagan used to go to his ranch, Bush to Maine, Clinton to Martha's Vineyard, Johnson to his ranch, Kennedy to. . . I dunno . . .Sinatra's hooker-filled limo.

This is not "moving the white house." DC is still the capital.

[seemslikeadream]

37. There's plenty of room for opinion here 75,000 give or take

please speak for yourself, who are you referring too? Who are you afraid of looking stupid to?

[MildyRules]

39. Good point

We all have our own opinions on this. Why do we care if a poster looks stupid for something like this? It's not a reflection on all of us.

[K-W]

40. We shouldnt reinforce the guilt by association frame. EOM

[MildyRules]

41. Agree

Just because one is off-base, that doesn't make ALL off-base.

[seemslikeadream]

43. You've got the option to consider the post off base

and post it. And maybe I feel you are off base


and I've got the right to post my opinion also

[MildyRules]

44. I'm agreeing with you!

[nashville_brook]

48. all your base are off

[elehhhhna]

31. Funny that the right is arguing that his "ranch" is his Private Home

and should be off-limits to Cindy, et al. If it's his private home, he shoulddn't call it the freaking Western Whitehouse.

Does he rent the barn (actually a studio with podium, etc.) to the media or deduct it as a personal business expense? THAT wpuld be interesting to know...

[nashville_brook]

33. funny that the left is arguing that too.

[FreedomAngel82]

36. Something I always wonder

is why does Bush always have meetings there with foreign affairs? He mostly has them there. For what reason? I would like to know. He does work for us.

[nashville_brook]

46. while we can't "why," we can say how it undermines democracy.

his reasons are his own and in the silence we can only imagine the worst. perhaps he would be so kind as to produce records of his foreign affairs policy making out at the ranch. i'm sure he'll gladly cough those up if we just ask. nicely.

[sakabatou]

38. So many violations under Bush's belt...

[Caleb]

42. FDR also had a Western White House

in Hawaii.

Was that unconstitutional? IMO, this is a non-issue.

[ultraist]

75. Did FDR, name it the Western WHITE HOUSE and use the seal?

[Caleb]

82. He named it the Western White House

Don't know about the seal though.

[GarySeven]

52. I happen to know for a fact that Ronald Reagan ...

planned and authorized the attack on Grenada from the Eisenhower Cottage at the Augusta National Golf Club. I don't see a problem with this at all - the president is president 24 hours a day, even when he's on AF 1 traversing flyover country.

In point of fact, I have often thought that the country would benefit if all the federal department heads would move into the cities or regions of the country most affected by their policy decisions - for example, the Secretary of Agriculture getting an office in Moline. They could still meet in Washington if the law truly requires that, and I'm not sure that it does. And why shouldn't Congress be able to vote from their Blackberrys? Get the whole bunch of 'em out of Washington and amongst us hoi poloi why doncha?

[nashville_brook]

55. holding raygun up as a beacon -- you're joking, right?

chimp spends 42% of his time relaxing in crawford.

or is he working? do you know?

two wrongs making a right is also an interesting argument to use. it's retro. has a whiff of nostalgia, like Iran/Contra.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nashville_brook]

53. omg, whoever did it, thanks for the vote -- i was starting to question

if my browser was sending me to the wrong address. i totally thought this was non-controversial stuff. like, here a little goodie.

you know, we're here b/c we to grow ideas. it's not a competition. we're not a news media outlet. we're a think tank. a watercooler. ideas need to hang with other ideas. we're on the same team.

[Lars39]

63. I'm old enough to remember when going to Camp David

for the weekend was controversial. Thanks for the posting the article.

[nashville_brook]

65. thanks for understanding my anguish over this

i remember that too.

[Q]

67. This should be of concern...

...to all Americans because Bush does official government business there when he meets other Heads of State at his ranch. His meetings with the Saudi Royals at his 'ranch' should at least raise concerns because of their involvement in 9-11 and the fact that his family does business with them to the tune of billions of dollars.

Illegal or not...it's part of the Bush Mafia's shady way of doing the 'people's business' away from the prying eyes of congress.

[Independent_Liberal]

69. Hmmmm.... Another subversion of the Constitution?

Wasn't it James Madison who said, "A President is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the Constitution"?

[unblock]

70. just as a thought exercise for those who see no problem:

what if shrubbie spent 100% of his time at his ranch, except for giving that pesky state of the union speech each year?

what if he met with banana republican congresscritters at his ranch and they made all decisions about bills and laws there?

what if the banana republican congresscritters only had a session of congress in d.c. just long enough to officially pass the bills they had already decided to pass on the ranch? with no real debate, because the decision was already made? maybe the democrats get some pretend debate time (of course all dems we cut out of the REAL decision-making on the ranch) but then they vote as agreed on the ranch? maybe they just pass one gigantic bill containing everything they agreed on back on the ranch?

what if the president had democrats who stepped on his property (seeking an audience) arrested and prosecuted for trespassing on private property?

AHEM, what if the president had such trespassers on his private property SHOT, something that homeowners often can do with a vengeance in texas?


the constitution does not prescibe d.c. as the "sest of the federal bureaucracy". it's not enough for the institutions to be there. that's where the decision making is supposed to happen, and that's where the people's voices are supposed to be heard.

instead, those seeking to petition the president must apparently get permission from a private citizen to camp out on their private property until the president decides to entertain guests at his private residence....

[nashville_brook]

71. hear hear!

for me, the definition of tipping point is the 100th monkey picking up that this isn't nonsense. it's not arbitrary, why there are laws. a constitution. even the declaration of indepence. "who we are" is extremely valuable as a rhetorical device. it's even more potent when it is allowed to be felt. when you own your rights as well as know them.

[CubsFan1982]

73. "What ifs" are useless exercises in speculation.

The seat of government is the District of Columbia. Congress still resides there. The President is on vacation. Why is this an issue? Was this a problem when Kennedy went to Hyannisport? Or when Truman went back to Independence? Or when Clinton was off touring Africa? Why is this an issue now?

[nashville_brook]

74. speculation is to form a theory without adequete evidence

i haven't speculated anything. i have stated facts. no theory here. just a fact to do with what you will.

[unblock]

80. actually, they help clarify the issue

at least if done properly.

my "what if" scenario helps to clarify that it is possible to separate the NOMINAL seat of government from the EFFECTIVE seat of government. if you believe the constitution only states requirements about the NOMINAL seat of government, then to you my scenario is irrelevant because nothing changes and there is no problem.

if, however, you believe the constitution was referring to an EFFECTIVE seat of government, then there is a big problem in my scenario, and the question then becomes, where is the dividing line from a seat of government remaining in d.c. with the president away occassionally vs. the seat of government moving in all but name?

it would be more helpful to address the issue rather than simply dismiss it as useless.

[CubsFan1982]

81. So what is it your proposing?

Keeping the President of the United States (whoever it is) locked in a steel cage in the White House so he never moves the "effective seat of government"? I just don't get the fuss over this. It's ridiculous on the face of it, especially when you're not applying it to all the other Presidents who have done the same thing.

[dbeach]

84. .."locked in a steel cage in the White House "

for every pres or only war mongering chickenhawks..

lordie Lordie..a thought so comforti

[unblock]

160. you seem to dwell on the reductio ad absurdum tactic

please don't put words in my mouth and then describe them as ridiculous.

i raised a question, and presented a hypothetical; i did not propose anything. you still have not addressed the hypothetical or the underlying questions.

but to be clear, no i'm not proposing a steel cage or banning presidential vacations. but at some point, d.c. becomes the vacation spot and elsewhere becomes the normal work spot, right?

no one begrudges the president 5% of his time outside of d.c. but shrub not only has spend 42% of his time on 'vacation', but he also clearly does at least some 'work' from his pig farm, to the point where they call it the 'western white house'.

the whole point that you don't seem to be acknowledging is that this is a significant departure from previous presidential practice. it's so much of a difference of degree that it raises the question, at what point does it become a difference of kind, rather than of degree?

[seemslikeadream]

83. BECAUSE WE ARE AT FCKING WAR!

Did you know that? Do you know how many soldiers under his command died today? Do you know how many soldiers have been changed for life today? We are at war and we are in deep shit, we are in the middle of a civil war. Though it is important for the resident to go on with his life. That's why this an issue.

[CubsFan1982]

85. If memory serves me correctly...

FDR went to Hyde Park and Warm Springs, Truman went to Independence and Key West, Johnson went to his ranch, and Nixon went to San Clemente. And, I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure we were at war when those Presidents went on vacation.

[seemslikeadream]

86. I believe your memory is lacking

many details

[CubsFan1982]

87. So, no President ever left Washington, DC in wartime until Bush started?

Two words: bull shit.

[seemslikeadream]

90. Let's take it one fact at a time

Are you referring to FDR Buzzards Bay fishing trip?

[CubsFan1982]

98. Let's see.

I'm referring to the numerous vacations and overseas trips taken by Presidents both Democratic and Republican during wartime since at least the time of FDR. They don't seem to exist in your world or in your version of revisionist history.

[seemslikeadream]

100. Can't discuss facts when you obviously don't have any

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

103. No you are the one making accusations you need to produce

the evidence not me.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

109. I never said they didn't leave DC

FACTS NAMES AND DATES PLEASE

[seemslikeadream]

112. Why are you changing the subject?

Because you can't win your arguement so you change the subject

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

116. I knew you didn't have the facts

[hippiepunk]

118. Just because

you refuse to acknowledge anything by repeating stupid questions doesn't mean he doesn't have facts.

[seemslikeadream]

119. He has not presented one fact with evidence that he is correct

[seemslikeadream]

96. Or are you referring to President Truman taking his doctor's advice

that he take a vacation because he had just served 19 grueling months in office. The decision to drop the atomic bomb, the conclusion of World War II, the daunting tasks of rebuilding Europe and Japan

Oh yes the resident is surely in need of a vacation he's worked so hard on that illegal war he started

[Catholic Sensation]

88. yeah you're forgetting that most of the ones you mentioned are democrats

so it's acceptable in THAT instance.

[seemslikeadream]

92. Oh no that has nothing to do with it

he's just conviently forgetting many facts that do not support his position

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[hippiepunk]

95. He's living in the

Democrats are perfect universe.

[seemslikeadream]

99. Are you talking about me?

[seemslikeadream]

97. Read the above posts you do not know what you are talking about

You should do your own research and not rely on someone who doesn't know what he is talking about

[hippiepunk]

101. Other presidents took vacations during wartime

Jebuz. :banghead:

[seemslikeadream]

104. Names and dates please?

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

107. Again please names and dates?

Clinton - Afghanistan

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

PLEASE

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

110. Seems you are not aware of the rules around here

[hippiepunk]

111. Truman was vacationing

when he authorized the Korean War.

[seemslikeadream]

113. And where was he vacationing?

[Dunedain]

130. Florida Keys

1951

http://www.trumanlittlewhitehouse.com/history.htm

[seemslikeadream]

135. Been covered already

Check above post

[CubsFan1982]

137. Doesn't count.

Truman was a Democrat. :eyes:

[seemslikeadream]

139. as posted before

Or are you referring to President Truman taking his doctor's advice
that he take a vacation because he had just served 19 grueling months in office. The decision to drop the atomic bomb, the conclusion of World War II, the daunting tasks of rebuilding Europe and Japan

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

143. Well when you don't present any proof for what you are stating

you are Mr. No Facts

[Catholic Sensation]

145. so photographic evidence

of truman on vacation in 1951 isn't proof? do we have to resurrect the motherfucker to prove this to you?

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

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[hippiepunk]

144. Can't process!

Gah! A Democrat! Doing something we accuse W of doing! ACK! :sarcasm:

[seemslikeadream]

147. I'm waiting haven't you called in any more reinforcements?

No names with no facts

[hippiepunk]

159. No facts?

"Not like this will satisfy you, but here goes:

FDR: frequently vacationed at Hyde Park, rests at Warm Springs, meeting with MacArthur in Hawaii in 1944

Truman: frequently returned to his home in Independence, vacationed in Key West, authorized the first response to the North Korean invasion in Independence, went to Potsdam in 1945 to confer with Churchill and Stalin, met with MacArthur at Midway Island in 1950.

Johnson: returned for well-documented vacations at his ranch on the Pedernales River in Texas, went to Vietnam on at least one occasion

Nixon: vacationed at summer home in San Clemente, CA several times during the Vietnam War

If that isn't good enough for you, I suspect a detailed log wouldn't either, because you're so entrenched in your ridiculous position that even intellectual humiliation would not coax you from your defenses."
Are you going to keep pretending this post doesn't exist? Viva Cubsfan!

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

117. And I knew you didn't have any facts either

[hippiepunk]

120. Oh fuck man

This is just craziness. :banghead: Fine. * is the first person to ever vacation during wartime. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

125. You have presented NO PROOF

of your position

[CubsFan1982]

128. Fuck.

Not like this will satisfy you, but here goes:

FDR: frequently vacationed at Hyde Park, rests at Warm Springs, meeting with MacArthur in Hawaii in 1944

Truman: frequently returned to his home in Independence, vacationed in Key West, authorized the first response to the North Korean invasion in Independence, went to Potsdam in 1945 to confer with Churchill and Stalin, met with MacArthur at Midway Island in 1950.

Johnson: returned for well-documented vacations at his ranch on the Pedernales River in Texas, went to Vietnam on at least one occasion

Nixon: vacationed at summer home in San Clemente, CA several times during the Vietnam War

If that isn't good enough for you, I suspect a detailed log wouldn't either, because you're so entrenched in your ridiculous position that even intellectual humiliation would not coax you from your defenses.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

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[hippiepunk]

133. bravo

:applause:

[seemslikeadream]

123. Such a shame

Don't have the backup don't accuse

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

126. NO when you are stating facts in a debate the burden is on you

to prove your position, which you are too lazy to produce

[Catholic Sensation]

127. you're making a completely irrational assertion

that no president, before Bush, has ever taken a vacation during a time of war or military hostility. Honestly, I don't have to look this up because it's so god damn stupid that research is utterly pointless. And when I gave an instance of a President being on vacation while were times of military hostility, you posted a smiley laughing. Refute that point and maybe I'll go to google and find the dates and places and numbers of times the president had sex with his wife for you with an average time it took to climax.

[seemslikeadream]

134. You were comparing Clinton to WWII?

That's something to laugh at. If you state a position you should be ready to defend it with links and facts. Quit changing the subject

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

148. You really shouldn't make things up and when you're loosing

it's such a shame you have to rely on name calling

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

150. Never did that's your MO

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

153. Isn't that Cubsfan or don't you count capitalization

the way you do spelling. Or was that just an honest mistake?

[Catholic Sensation]

154. You're dodging the issue

which is Cubsfan1982 posted several dates, places, etc. which prove you wrong, and yet you claim to be winning the argument.

[hippiepunk]

155. TrannyNoPants

I fucking love you lefty. :rofl:

[seemslikeadream]

158. You've been dodging the issue of proving your claims

Instead in your juvenile ways change the subject by criticizing a mistake in spelling and in doing so make the same mistake and then ignore the fact. If you can't debate, call people names that's the ticket.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

166. Have you ever heard of providing links when stating a fact?

Why should anyone believe anything that you post. That's all I have ever asked for PROOF. You all could be correct for that matter but without proof all your posts are meaningless. You all are just too lazy to link your claims.

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

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[seemslikeadream]

171. No proof, nada, zilch,

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

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165. Deleted message

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[hippiepunk]

157. Again

"Not like this will satisfy you, but here goes:

FDR: frequently vacationed at Hyde Park, rests at Warm Springs, meeting with MacArthur in Hawaii in 1944

Truman: frequently returned to his home in Independence, vacationed in Key West, authorized the first response to the North Korean invasion in Independence, went to Potsdam in 1945 to confer with Churchill and Stalin, met with MacArthur at Midway Island in 1950.

Johnson: returned for well-documented vacations at his ranch on the Pedernales River in Texas, went to Vietnam on at least one occasion

Nixon: vacationed at summer home in San Clemente, CA several times during the Vietnam War

If that isn't good enough for you, I suspect a detailed log wouldn't either, because you're so entrenched in your ridiculous position that even intellectual humiliation would not coax you from your defenses."

Refute CubsFan damn you! :eyes:

[hippiepunk]

138. #1 you make no sense

#2 I give you this post by one of my heroes.

"Not like this will satisfy you, but here goes:

FDR: frequently vacationed at Hyde Park, rests at Warm Springs, meeting with MacArthur in Hawaii in 1944

Truman: frequently returned to his home in Independence, vacationed in Key West, authorized the first response to the North Korean invasion in Independence, went to Potsdam in 1945 to confer with Churchill and Stalin, met with MacArthur at Midway Island in 1950.

Johnson: returned for well-documented vacations at his ranch on the Pedernales River in Texas, went to Vietnam on at least one occasion

Nixon: vacationed at summer home in San Clemente, CA several times during the Vietnam War

If that isn't good enough for you, I suspect a detailed log wouldn't either, because you're so entrenched in your ridiculous position that even intellectual humiliation would not coax you from your defenses."

[Orangepeel]

129. this is such a non issue

although this thread is entertaining

:popcorn:

Here is a link to a story describing how Clinton authorized striking Afghanistan while he was at Martha's Vineyard. He came back to Washington right afterward -- because Clinton actually did Presidential work and Washington is the best place to do it.

I'm certainly not arguing that bush OUGHT to be on vacation. But the idea that the president -- whoever that may be -- shouldn't make decisions outside of Washington just seems silly and distracting to me.

____________________________________________

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Saying "there will be no sanctuary for terrorists," President Clinton on Thursday said the U.S. strikes against terrorist bases in Afghanistan and a facility in Sudan are part of "a long, ongoing struggle between freedom and fanaticism."

His comments were broadcast live from the White House shortly after he arrived in Washington from his vacation in Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts.

<snip>

In a brief comment made before his departure, the president said, "Today, we have struck back."

http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/20/us.strikes.01/

[hippiepunk]

131. I love you.

:applause:

[Cha]

72. The Plastic Ponderosa

is in trouble?

[achtung_circus]

79. Shouldn't this be in the Lounge? nt

[hippiepunk]

89. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :spray:

[Tyranny_R_US]

91. By naming it "The Western Whitehose" he's way out of line

unless he's planning to move out at the end of his term there is no reason to give his vacation house that kind of designation.

[Placebo]

94. I love the idea of a WESTERN WHITE HOUSE!

and that lil backdrop they have for the press conferences

if it wasn't bush, i'd be more than happy with it

[Eric J in MN]

146. This is ridiculous. I'm not surprised that no one signed

his or her name to that article.

[LibertyorDeath]

151. Hi thanx for this.

It's common knowledge that bush is the laziest most corrupt pos
to ever con his way into power.

He will go down in history as the worst president bar none of all time.

:toast:

[BattyDem]

156. The whole "Western White House" thing has always pissed me off!

I know it sounds petty, but I always thought it was incredibly arrogant for him to call his private home the "Western White House" and make signs which resemble the actual WH logo signs!

The White House belongs to us, the people, not to the President and by him calling his private ranch the Western White House, it's like he's saying, "F*ck you!" I know ... I'm overreacting, but like I said, it has always pissed me off. It just seems so disrespectful of the office and of the people. :grr:

In response to the OP: I don't think it's anywhere close to being illegal because he didn't "move" the WH to Texas; WWH is simply a PR term to make it sound like he's doing something important while he's goofing off.

[LibertyorDeath]

170. While the Troops Die. .....One Lazy POS MF

Bush Set To Break Record For Most Vacation Days

If all goes as planned, President Bush next week will break Ronald Reagan’s all-time high for most presidential vacation days.

According to the Washington Post, with three and a half years left in his second term, Bush had already spent 319 days in Crawford -– almost 20% of his time in office -- upon arriving at the so-called Western White House last week. Reagan, another president famous for his ranching retreats, spent 335 days on vacation spread across eight years.

So, assuming he doesn't cut his vacation short, Bush will break Reagan's record on Aug. 19.



Still, the White House is trying to spin the vacation as a busy time for the president. Why? In a recent article, The Houston Chronicle offered this insight: "White House officials are touchy about criticism of Bush's traditional August break, because most Americans don't get five weeks of vacation a year, nor do they have access to Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland where Bush sometimes spends weekends. So they call the ranch the Western White House."

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/08/10/133522.php

[stevietheman]

176. Sorry, but this story is "nothing to see here, move along" n/t

n/t

[earth mom]

177. I really can't believe this thread! Is this free republic or what?

C'mon people! The OP was right on the money and deep down ya'll know it! A "vacation" is one thing, but 42% of *s time is spent at that ranch! That's almost SIX MONTHS A YEAR!

Seriously, to defend * for this utter and blatant finger he is giving the American people he is "supposed" to represent really makes me question peoples motives.

What's the Freeper meme? Oh yeah, "Can't have * look bad", ain't that right? :sarcasm:

[Moderator]

178. Locking

This thread has turned into a massive flame-war

DU Moderator