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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:04 PM
Original message
What sets US apart from THEM (Long, thoughtful exegesis):
Edited on Thu Aug-18-05 11:15 PM by Redstone
I was starting to answer a post in another thread about how many people at DU immediately jumped to the defense of the police in London who murdered that poor Brazilian guy. But as I wrote it, it developed into a longer piece that I (humbly) believe might be worthwhile for people on both sides of that issue - and, indeed, many DUers, to read and think about.

I don't make a habit of writing lengthy, thoughtful screeds, and may indeed be off track with this one, but read the whole thing anyway, if you would, and tell me if I'm on the right track.

I was shocked, immediately after the London Tube execution, that so many DUers instantly rallied to support the police officers involved in the incident, without questioning the facts of the event, as those fact were fed to us, at all.. Now, at some resolve, I believe I have gained some understanding of just why that happened, and have calmed my attitude toward those DUers considerably.

It was tough seeing all those DUers essentially succumb to panic; but now that I think back on it, I think I understand the fear that was palpable in their eagerness to feel that a blow had been struck against terrorism, and that for just once, the police and others who were hired to protect them had actually done what they were hired to do, and had whacked one of the evil terrorist fuckers before he could kill someone.

That's why I haven't gotten--and will still not get--angry with the doubters. It's just human nature, in these times, to want --to really want to feel safe, to feel that your "protectors" are actually competent to protect you.

So when we see a news item that has the kind of drama that we, children of movies and television, interpret as a "daring operation" by "special police forces," we want SO badly to believe that the Heroes have come to rescue us from the Evil Ones, as we've been taught to believe they will.

And in this case the Evil Ones are evil in a way that we DUers, for the most part, simply cannot comprehend.

It's a sad fact of America that many, many right-wingers can mentally put themselves in the kind of psychological space that McVeigh inhabited; they can actually visualize themselves with psyches so overheated with perceived insult or injustice that they could indeed, and without compunction, no matter if innocents (such as babies) were in the target space, set off a fiery volcano of misplaced revenge, without the slightest moral compunction.

In other words, they are eminently capable of of acts of terrorism; whether on a scale smaller than the Islamic terrorists' acts or not, they do without question share the same blinding fanaticism that engenders an utter disregard for any morality or sanity or judgment beyond their desire to destroy.

We DUers simply are not capable of understanding at a basic level how some people can kill others, without consideration of guild or innocence. I'd dare to say we're just not wired that way--and therein lie the roots of this temporary schism we had here in DU. We can't imagine ourselves thinking like the far-right and Islamic terrorists do; it seems to us like they're another species only vaguely related to us.

How many times, after all, have you seen or heard some freeper rightwinger advocate the large-scale murder of a group of people who he or she finds offensive? Happens pretty frequently, doesn't it? When was the last time you saw or heard such sentiments from a DUer or another liberal? Bet you can't remember when.

Nonetheless, we never know if we're going to be in the building the next McVeigh targets. We never know if we're going to be in the next building that Al-Queda targets. If a terrorist, home-grown or imported, sets his sights on a place where we just happen to be, it won't matter to us whether we're a good person who understands the terrorist's grievances, or even sympathizes with his cause, we'll die just like everyone else.

We just don't know.

What we do know is that we have placed our lives in the hands of men and women whom we have hired (we pay their salaries with our taxes) to protect us from the McVeighs and the Al-Quedas.

And they don't seem to have done a very good job so far. (This statement is not meant to insult the many brave, dedicated people who work hard in law enforcement and intelligence-gathering services; I happen to believe that the failures we've seen were because of political meddling and incompetent management, not a lack of dedication by the people in the field and on the front lines.)

The public, the constituency of these agencies, for the most part feels the same way. They know that these agencies and police forces are staffed with good, well-meaning people. The public wants, no, craves an occurrences wherein these dedicated people can win a clear victory over the Evil Ones, thus reassuring us that we are indeed, protected.

And when such an occurrence occurs, it is only natural that a large part of the public will be so grateful for the opportunity to breath a sign of relief, for the first time in so long, that they'll immediately drop their guard, and because of that long-pent-up desire for good news, excoriate the doubters.

People: I knew the very next day, and just from reading the little old Hartford Courant's gutted AP and Washington Post reports, that something was not right with the accounts of that shooting. That doesn't make me any more intelligent than anyone else, just more cynical.

But for day afterward, I continued to be stunned at how many DUers blindly took the position that what the police did was justified. I was angry about that at the time, but am not now.

Now I understand. Any of you who felt that the police were justified at first, but do not now, please don't think I'm flaming you. I think I do understand why you took that position, and if you really want my position, I think it's perfectly natural for you to have done so.

But you'll be more skeptical next time, I bet.

Do not let fear cloud your thinking, my friends. If you do, they win. All of the "they's."

Redstone

Edited for spelling and typos.
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Liberals are the party of inclusion.
Conservatives are the party of exclusion.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Liberals could take a bit of advice....
if they want to be seen as inclusive by those still undecided.

Stop assuming Christian means insane RW hateful prayer and creationism in the schools out of their mind condemner of others.

If people want to let the sex offenders into the hurricane shelters, let the Christians in, too. ;)

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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I don't think that reply was anti-Christian, and my post
was certainly not either, and I do not appreciate you trying to turn this discussion into a "persecuted-Christian" one.

I would not hijack a thread that you started about "persecuted Christians" and try to turn it into a discussion of something completely unrelated, and I hope that you would have the courtesy to allow my thread post to be discussed for its content and ideas, not for your grievances. That would be just rude.

Redstone
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I'll just leave your litte posting area....
if it makes you feel better. I was just spontaneously responding to a poster.

Excuse me.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Well, you can stomp off in a snit if you want to, but the
Edited on Thu Aug-18-05 11:33 PM by Redstone
fact remains that the post you reacted to did not say one thing that was anti-Christian.

Nor did mine.

Sorry, but you're not going to make me feel bad about my answer to your post. I stand by what I said.

Redstone
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I never saidit was anti Christian.
All I did was post a point about the inclusive nature of Dems, and how some groups seem to have assumptions made about them, even by supposedly inclusive types.

It's ok with me if people don't believe in a higher power. It's not ok to give those who do a hard time by assuming they are all the same.

I'm not stomping anywhere. I'm going to tiptoe over to another thread and see what's going on.

:hi:
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. I have one "wonderment".
In a group who is so quick to question any news outlet's POV without close scrutiny, how did a thing like scores jumping on a band wagon of belief that the police were right gunning down a guy in the street even happen, do you think?
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Because of their fears and desires, as I expounded on
in the original post. People drop out of character when they're scared. That's what I tried to explain.

Redstone
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well, besides that....
"Don't let fear drive you" has been discussed so much, it should have been ingrained and prevented the initial reaction.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. But it didn't. My post was intended to stop BLAMING
people for having done that, and to start UNDERSTANDINg why some people might have.

Redstone
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Me thinks you may be a bit paranoid. n/t
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Bullshit. Hijacked posts are not paranoid.
Do you have anything to say about the original post?

Redstone
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. um. I was responding to mad_con. Check your inbox.
O8)
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I think he wants us to stay on topic...
and I started some unintentional shit. :blush:
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Oop. Sorry. Check your inbox as well.
My mistake.

Redstone
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. you thinks incorrectly....
my post was based on observation of the posters here.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Good points (in both points), madeline...
:hi:

We do have to be more open minded in regard to Christians and christianity.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. thank you...
that's all I was trying to say. :)
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Define "so many."
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. What, you want numbers? We should take a census?
If you were around DU right after that incident, you'd have gotten an idea.

Do you have something to contribute to the duscussion, or do you prefer to just insert short, snotty comments?

Redstone
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. I just prefer to insert short, snotty comments. nt
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kicking to bookmark for tomorrow. n/t
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Thank you so much. Maybe then, we'll see some actual
discussion of my theories--which may or may not be correct, but it would be nice if people could discuss them based on the soundness of rthe theories, rather than

1) attempting to turn the discussion into yet another "persecuted christian" discussion (with which it has NOTHING to do), or

2) snotty "well, how many DUers initially supported the police action. Huh? Huh? I want to know the numbers and names of the people your'e sayiing said that" replies.

Sometimes this place can be fucking annoying. I appreciate YOUR response, I really do. I hope tomorrow we can find some DUers who genuinely want to DISCUSS something that I feel is an important subject, instead of just spitting their personal venom. I would really welcome that.

Thanks again.

Redstone
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Jesus Christ!
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 12:21 AM by madeline_con
A "persecuted christian" discussion?

My comment was a legit one concerning inclusion. Since you didn't post strict rules on what was acceptable in the way of response, I commented on the NON inclusion present in a lot of posts.

"A lot" is just a lot if anyone asks. Lighten up, Redstone. I really never meant to disrupt or steer your thread anywhere.

Maybe tomorrow, you'll see an honest response as something other than personal venom spitting. :)
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Dunedain Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Ironic isn't it?
The Lords name in vain to express the level of outrage over a comment about the inclucivity, or lack thereof; conducted towards the label "Christian".


Thats funny stuff.
I'm just saying....
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. In vain ....
I thought it was appropriate. And it IS funny. :)
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
26. Interesting Post -- My Thoughts
After reading your post, I have to say that I believe you have hit on something. However, I will also say that a topic of worthy interest as well would be why so many continue to stand behind George W. Bush. I believe that fear and empathy play a big part in that as well as the shooting of the Brazilian by the London police. Fear plays a part because we fear the terrorist, the evil-doer. Empathy because we empathize with the victims of the terrorist and the evil-doer.

Consider September 11, 2001. George W. Bush had all of America behind him despite his unpopularity and having controversially been selected as president. The events of the morning of September 11, 2001, realized the enactment of the evil-doer and the revulsion by those who witnessed his acts. Fear meet empathy. Watching the events of 9/11/2001 caused Americans to not only empathize with the victims but with the president. In some people's minds this empathy became an impenetrable wall, and in others it became a temporary barricade erected to deflect psychological trauma.

You may be right when you assert that those who rallied the London police did so out of fear, but I hold the opinion that it was out of a mix of fear, empathy, and harkening back to the shocked trauma of the events of September 11, 2001, and July 7, 2005. Do I think them wrong for not questioning the actions of the British police officers wrong? No. At least no more than I questioned the rallying around the president following the events of 9/11/2001 or the rallying of the world around our country.


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