Class Warfare Here On DU -- STOP IT!

[theHandpuppet]

Y'know, I'm really getting very discouraged by what I view as the class warfare too often being waged within many threads here on DU. I can't tell you just how many times within the course of a single day I read disparaging remarks here about people in poor and/or rural areas. Vicious stereotyping of the poor is not something I expect here on DU.

Some of the comments I've read just today are worthy of the worst Freeper posts, ridiculing what poor folk eat, drive, where they live, go to the bathroom, et al ad infinitum.

Let me give you a clue, folks: it's not the poor in this country who sent us to Iraq, who are raking in billions via corruption and illegal wars, who are profiting from fixed elections, sucking up to lobbyists, driving Hummers, living in mini-mansions and gated communities, stealing from state pension funds, ripping off the American people via corporate robbers like Enron, who are donating millions upon millions into Republican coffers, who own the RW hate radio stations and mediawhore outlets, who spew their twisted visions of our future from their RW think-tanks, or whose policies are being rebelled against in vigils all across this land.

Are there, among poor folk, those whose actions and deeds are revolting, lacking in compassion or downright greedy? You bet. Yet for every small town preacher taking advantage of a poor widow on Social Security there are a few score and more of millionaires right in DC who are cannibalizing millions upon millions of their own citizens. Too bad their vile isn't so eagerly exploited by the media -- but then they own the media, don't they.

The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party which represents, among its number, the disenfranchised of this nation -- and that includes the poor and working class folks in this country of ours. Sometimes you'd never know it by some of the posts I read here on DU.

I've had my say. Flame away. I really don't give a damn. I've read enough poor-bashing posts here today to last me for quite a spell.

[bryant69]

1. Actually I think you have a point

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[theHandpuppet]

6. Demonizing the poor...

... only plays into the hands of the mega-rich fascists who are really running this country. Anyone on the left who perpetuates the class warfare might as well have a chug of that same kool-aid the PNACers and their ilk are drinking. It keeps the country divided and preoccupied and keeps the focus off their own filthy dealings.

[shadowknows69]

125. I am the poor.

for all practical purposes. who's been demonizing me? i'll give them a proper pauper ass kicking. :evilgrin:

[leanin_green]

148. Working Poor here. And I work for a state, no less!

I guess that Utah considers 20K a year a living wage. So, like so many others, I work two jobs and my health and relationships suffer because of it.

[QC]

21. Bravo! Recommended!

Let's keep this one kicked!

:kick:

[Patrick Henry]

119. Now who would want to divide us? I'm glad this was posted

There have been vicious attacks on the poor, on the youth, on the liberals, on those who exposed the BBV fraud and on those who have accused Bush. Would Democrats want to launch these wars or would infiltrators?

I think the initial posting hits the nail on the head with it's concern about attacks on a group we should all be supporting. Why would anyone on our side attack the poor? Here, everyone is anonymous and we don't know who the attackers are. We need to be vigilant and to realize that our side would want to support the poor, enfranchise more voters (including the youth), and to stand up and fight for people like Bev Harris and work to prove the truth of Margie Shoedinger's documented allegations about Bush.

When you read a posting, ask yourself, does this show respect for oppressed or needing Americans (such as the poor and the youth) or does it cut them down, does this expand the voter base or does it decrease it, does this support those who have exposed election fraud or does it attack them, does it support those who have attacked Bush or does it attack Bush's attackers? Let's not be fooled by the pseudonyms.

[Kelvin Mace]

169. Still waiting for an answer to this challenge

We need to be vigilant and to realize that our side would want to support the poor, enfranchise more voters (including the youth), and to stand up and fight for people like Bev Harris...

Since you like to defend Bev, see if you can answer this challenge.

Explain to me why your "hero" told a bald face lie in her post on her web site.

WiredNews also reported, remember, that I promote bellydance books and that I was making "millions" on a Qui Tam action. They knew both of those statements to be inaccurate spin at the time they wrote them.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/9665.html...

This statement is very clear. Bev claims that Wired News said she was making millions and that she was promoting "belly dancing books". She also accuses the reporter of knowing the statements were untrue.

Yet, when we go to Wired News and look at the story, we discover:

1) It was NOT a Wired story, it was an AP story.
2) It makes neither statement Bev attributes to it.
3) The statements in the story that were made were completely factual.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65674,00.html

This is a completely simple challenge. Explain to me why Bev lied or explain how her lie isn't a lie.

[grauch]

2. well said. nt

[myrna minx]

3. If the Dems do not stand up for the poor, who do they have?

I agree with you.

[bertha katzenengel]

4. HEAR, HEAR!

:applause:

You're not the only one who's sick of it.

[kentuck]

5. Are there spies in our midst ?

:shrug:

[theHandpuppet]

7. What's that supposed to mean?

If I might ask.

[kentuck]

10. I think the 'class warfare' may have something to do with their politics

in disguise. That is all i should say on the matter.

[theHandpuppet]

37. Gotcha.

Never occurred to me.

[TwilightZone]

48. Good point.

Often, not all is at it appears to be.

[The Stranger]

160. Think about it. The Right Wing has mastered turning the Left upon itself.

In the last election, African American ministers were hammered by the Right Wing regarding gay marriage issues, forcing a fissure in the Left.

Why wouldn't some of them be here to create fissures by memeing certain issues?

[notadmblnd]

167. I've wondered it many times

nt

[Norquist Nemesis]

8. Are you sure they're not Freakers?

Just got in here so I haven't had a chance to see these things...but the red flags go up on some of the things I'll see posted. Some of the closeted Cons are pretty good at just crossing over the line showing their hand, then disappearing for a few days.

[Gman]

9. The attitudes you mention are among the reasons why I take up for

the guy in Crawford that shot his shotgun in the air. Most people here don't understand 1) the country way of life or 2) country life in Texas. People here automatically assume that if 1) someone is country and/or 2) from Texas that they are a right winger.

I have a cousin here in Texas that is an elected county commissioner and is as strong a democrat as anyone here. But if you look at him with his Stetson, jeans, boots, rough look and the cattle he raises, you could easily prejudge him as a right winger.

More often than not, I just shake my head and feel sorry for those so unenlightened. There are all kinds of people and all kinds of ways of life, not just the kind of life and/or beliefs that one person has.

[crispini]

11. Well said!

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Bingo, I live in a large city and I get it

[wuushew]

42. Pointlessly discharging firearms into the air is unwise and rude

What was accomplished by such action? Was shooting a firearm a better alternative than seeking redress with the opposing group or taking legal action?

If such behavior is representative of local culture then I can't help but be disappointed with the failure of human reasoning and civility.

Hey don't mess with Texas right :puke:

[Gman]

124. The guy discharged a shotgun and I would assume he was using

birdshot in the shotgun if he was getting ready for dove season. Birdshot is about the size of a BB and there are (I don't know because I never counted them) maybe 200 of them in one shell. They don't travel very far with any force. I've been "peppered" by a shotgun from about 150 feet away. It stung a bit and I'm glad I didn't get hit in the eye, and we still talk about how stupid the guy was that did it, but that was about it. If this guy really intended to hurt someone I'm sure he has a lot bigger firepower in the house that he could have used. A shotgun with birdshot is real loud, and is lethal to, well, birds. The guy probably scared the hell out of a lot of people, which he likely intended to do to those city folks, and thought it was funny. But that's about all the harm he did.

And rude? You don't have any idea how rude that guy, as well as the other people that live in the area, think this whole thing is. Nevertheless! They are almost all being cordial and polite in spite of how rude they feel everyone is being just by being at what the locals think is a spectacle. That's really the way it is in Texas.

[wuushew]

142. You're not denying that the action itself was meaningless

hence an act of idiocy. There are better ways to blow off steam, culture should not trump common sense.

[MADem]

156. I do not think the act was meaningless

I like rural folk as much as the next person, but that guy shot off that shotgun to attempt to intimidate the folk supporting Cindy who were camping in the ditch. His goal was not to herald the arrival of "dove huntin' season." That was his snarky EXCUSE.

He did it simply to be an asshole, to scare the protesters, and in my experience, he is an ugly exception to the rural way of life--most farmers and ranchers I have met are not assholes, and would go out of their way to make people feel at ease, not uncomfortable. And if they had a disagreement, they'd sort it out by speaking plainly, and doing something other than firing into the air and waving weaponry at unarmed, out of town, folks in shorts and tee shirts and sunblock....

YMMV, but I think that guy is a lowlife shit.

[Richard Steele]

151. You were "peppered from 150 feet" and it only "stung abit"?

Wow, you were SO lucky that the person shooting at you
was using a firearm and ammunition built in the year 1100!

If they had been using ANY shotgun built in the last
century, you would have spent ALOT of time digging
lead out of your body!
Lucky you.

Issues of your "LUCK" aside...
you seem to be doing everything you can to
invent IMAGINARY excuses for this incident.

LARRY made his point clear with his "interview"
after he fired 5 shots into the air;
we all "got it".

The gunfire was intended to INTIMIDATE,
to instill the FEAR of "being fired upon."

The Courts have been very CLEAR on this concept;
certainly MUCH CLEARER than your posts.

If someone walks into a bank waving a gun,
and politely asks a teller to hand over all the cash,
that person is guilty of ARMED robbery.

It is not necessary to VERBALLY suggest that the teller
might be SHOT if the polite request is not met.
Simply DISPLAYING the firearm conveys the implicit THREAT.

Likewise, approaching a group of people
and firing 5 rounds randomly into the air
before posting a "no trespassing" sign...
conveys an implicit THREAT of violence.

But you, Gman, somehow consider LARRY's actions to be
"Cordial and Polite", by your own words.

I must say, as one DUer to anther:
I have found all your posts on this incident to be...
SIMPLY FASCINATING.

[havocmom]

57. Yes, if the sort of remarks made about this man & rural people in general

would have been made about any people of color, ethnic, national or religious group, or even gender (Hey, red state bashers, those guys were GUYS after all, maybe that's the problem :sarcasm:) the mods would delete them issue warnings to the authors and probably ban the ones who kept it up.

It is appalling that some here think it is fine to make sweeping and bigoted generalizations about rural populations and 'red states' they know nothing about beyond how the electoral college vote went. And when I had a post deleted for calling those remarks (not the author of them, just the REMARKS) bigoted, I damned near threw my computer out the window! How the hell can the DU be a liberal/progressive board and allow such blatant bigotry? Just because someone lives in a low density area, it is OK to demonize them and ALL their neighbors? But not OK to call that what it was?

:wtf:

Came to the decision I would now be a total pest to the mods, alerting on ANY post that was blatantly bigoted against a population based on location or economic class. My litmus test: would it be tolerated if you substituted the words 'blacks' or 'jews' in place of the people denigrated in the post? If it would not be tolerated, then alert on it and raise holy hell!

Join me in this effort. If we can strike language demeaning to races and genders here, as well we should, we need to do the same for language demeaning to geography and class. To fail this is to delude ourselves that we are progressive.

OK, rant off.

[txindy]

130. Very good point

I had a similar experience although nothing of mine was deleted. I got a 'charming' series of PMs from a mod. I had the opposite response: I now leave the alert button alone and let them handle each and every post on their own without any help from me. I left DU alone, too. For six months. There are other sites available with a great deal of information. I didn't miss a thing. Did wonders for my blood pressure, too.

[crispini]

12. Kick!

:applause: :thumbsup: Recommended!

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cmd]

15. No, it would be useless to respond to you. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

16. People are poor because they are STUPID??!!!

Thank you so much for that ignorant comment.

And as for the "rural poor" voting for the GOP, I can only refer you to the most recent election in the 2nd District of Ohio, where it was the RURAL POOR who voted for Hackett by large margins. From the kind of comment you just offered, I don't know why they bothered, being so poor and stupid.

[TwilightZone]

62. On the bright side, we don't have to look very far for an example of what

you're talking about. :)

Seriously, as I've said elsewhere in the post, it's easier to be ignorant and lazy than to do research and fully understand the underlying problems. Nice of this guy to so efficiently demonstrate.

[QC]

18. "People are poor because they are stupid."

George W. himself couldn't have said it better.

There are lots of reasons why people are poor, only one of which is ignorance. Poverty is more often than not self-perpetuating: if your parents are poor, then you will probably be as well. It's a much more complex issue than a statement like "People are poor because they are stupid" acknowledges.

[WiseButAngrySara]

104. "W" did say it 'better!' People are poor because they ARE LAZY is what

our vacationing (AGAIN?):sarcasm:, drunk and drugged until his 40's, born rich, "it's HARD work" Commander in Chit said, who benefited from being rich which was inherited, not due to his own efforts, who when he got into business trouble had the taxpayers bail him out, nevermind the glaring inconsistencies of hating taxes (for the rich anyway), who is now having taxpayers pay for this illegal war and his war-profiteering buddies are making billions, and keeping him in office with contributions for this sick neocon cycle of evil, who keeps the poor poorer by his current minimum wage which forces many into two jobs to support their families, and while the oil prices are increasing, the poor are hit the hardest, even if they rely on public transportation, if it exists as an option at all. The poor under this administration CANNOT be lazy...they'd die!

I sometimes think that this is why people are so ill-informed in this country, and it might be intentional. If you keep them poor, doing REAL 'hard work', they've NO TIME to read and thoroughly understand whats going on. The alternative is MSM and RW radio idiot blab.

[skids]

20. I know one "recent poll" that shows the opposite.

That being the one at the ballot box in OH-02 a few weeks ago.

No, the rural poor did not vote GOP in a big way. It was the SUV driving yuppie-wannabies in the exurbs that did that. Not the country-folk.

[meganmonkey]

22. Well, at least you recognize it as bigoted

That doesn't count as calling you out, does it? Since you said it yourself.

Now I will take a deeeeep breath and bite my tongue (fingers?) so I don't say what I really want to right now and get my message deleted.

:puke:

[hiley]

24. WTF?

Cruel statement and completely not true either.

[myrna minx]

25. What an awful thing to say. n/t

[DaveJ]

27. That is absolutely untrue

In my own experience there are a lot of rich stupid people, and poor smart people. Actually, most rich people I've met are quite dumb, and so uncurious about life that all they know to do is make money.

Mensa.org notes that their members are from all walks of life.

[barb162]

32. "People are poor because they are stupid" Incorrect!!

Lots of things can go wrong in people's lives: long term illness or accidents, for example. There's lots of reasons some very smart and /or really well-educated people can no longer work,then go bankrupt, etc.

[MalibuChloe]

83. not only that, but poverty is a cycle that is hard to break

poor people often stay poor because their parents are poor, their neighbors are poor and so on...and it's very difficult for that cycle to break.

[barb162]

87. and it is getting harder and harder all the time to break the cycle

[MissMarple]

33. The rural poor voted GOP because the Dems deserted them.

The DLC had better things to promote than rural economic and health care issues. The GOP convinced them that GOP economic policies are better and the Dems were evil communists who want to degrade their children, corrupt their communities, and banish God and prayer from the United States.

It is all in "What's the Matter With Kansas". The GOP machine is evil and insidious in its manipulation of the American people. And it is all for money and power.

And on edit, the rural poor are not the enemy, they are the pawns. The GOP is the enemy, the corporate power brokers are, and the American Taliban as represented by the Dominionist movement, Opus Dei, and the Fellowship are, as well. They need to be unmasked.

[Rich Hunt]

35. uh, no

Since when do poor people have a chance to go to college anyway?

Having lots of poor people around is useful - so many charities to serve them, so many people to do your dirty work, etc. I mean, just where are we going to find jobs for all of these people anyway?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. And one more shining example of why we can forget

about the rural vote folks...

Thanks

[corkhead]

39. not all of them (us) vote GOP

but making fun of them (us) is not going to help change their voting habits

[Pepper32]

44. So what's your excuse?

Poor people are poor for many reason. Your narrow-minded statement shows who the really ignorant people are.

[smartvoter]

45. My educated opinion is that your bigoted opinion is ignorant. nt

[Hubert Flottz]

61. ROTF!

[VOX]

46. Good God! And how many of us are just one paycheck away from "stupid?"

Sorry, but the "people are poor because they are stupid" line is straight out of the right-wing playbook.

The vast majority of Americans who fall into poverty are **not** there by ignorance. They have been neglected, abused and set adrift by their former employers who only have eyes for obscene profit, by their uncaring communities, and by a me-first population that doesn't give a hoot about the less fortunate who've fallen through the cracks.

So, what's the next nugget of compassionate insight -- something like, "Why don't the homeless just get jobs?" :grr:

[WhiteTara]

68. the general theory is that we are all Two paychecks

away from the curb. With gas prices going up hourly, I think we can cut it down to one. I know that I am nervous.

[annabanana]

70. please note.. ignorance is NOT the same as stupidity. . .n/t

[JanusAscending]

150. GOTTA LOVE YA !!!!!

KrazyKat your first line SAYS IT ALL!!:yourock: I can only add to that "there, but for the grace of God, go I"

[Mairead]

49. Yep, that's a bigoted opinion alright! But insight is the first step to

in the process of growth, so perhaps there's hope for you yet.

[Mythsaje]

53. Not stupid...

IGNORANT...and kept that way deliberately through lack of funding for educational opportunities and 24/7 inundation with RW philosophy through local television and radio, especially the RW crap from country and western singers who just don't get it.

Education IS the key...

[WiseButAngrySara]

107. Bingo! What you said is not a Myth, you sage! (lol)...n/t

[TwilightZone]

55. Thanks for proving the original poster's point.

n/t

[lildreamer316]

59. Many geinuses were broke when they were alive.

Newton (later). Einstien. Bach. I could go on for ages.
Are you now saying they were stupid?

[ultraist]

71. Oveall, Democrats win the majority of the poor vote, by a large margin

Kerry won the large majority of low income voters. This is historically the case for Democrats.

[deadparrot]

73. Your blanket statement shows your own ignorance.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe, in some cases, the poverty comes *before* the "stupidity"? If you're born with nothing, it's not exactly a cakewalk to make a comfortable life for yourself, no matter how brilliant you are...*especially* given the condition of our public schools.

I'm really embarrassed for some DUers. That statement is about as insulting and hurtful as any I've ever read, for no other reason than the fact that it came from my own "side."

[AbbyR]

74. Do WHAT???

I have a master's degree. My husband was a doctoral candidate before he became ill. I work at a small, very good weekly newspaper and make very little money. My husband can no longer work. My older daughter graduated summa cum laude in May and is now looking for a job in NYC. She was on full scholarship in college and graduated with a 4.0 average.

I am struggling and looking for a second job to put my younger daughter through college.

I am not stupid. My husband is not stupid. We are both barely making it, however, because he can't work and my job doesn't pay.

Poor absolutely does NOT equal stupid.

[spuddonna]

80. People are poor for many different reasons...

My sister was born with a rare genetic disease that wiped out her health care coverage within the first year of her life. My parents entered her into a government program to try experimental drugs as a last ditch effort to save her life, but it required that we have no other 'sources of income' to put towards private care. My mother and father were forced to liquidate all of their savings, bonds, etc... including the ones held in our name.

From that point on, we were on and off assistance. We were definitely poor, but we were not stupid. My mother was a brilliant person. She had been the salutatorian in her class. My father loved to read and taught me electronics and physics.

Poverty in this country for many people is one paycheck away, or one health care crisis away. You might say, "Your story is different - that's an isolated case." But I have so many friends who are in the same boat. Father/Mother becomes disabled and family starts to fall into a financial pit that they can't dig out of...

People who are poor are not stupid. They have been misled; they have been lied to by the Republicans. If the Democratic party has an sense at all, it will champion the poor, and become the party that my parents and I knew back in the 1960-1970's...

[tnlefty]

14. Could you give me an idea of the threads that you're referring to?

Just some titles even so that I can get an idea of what you're talking about?

I'm off to go scout around now.

[theHandpuppet]

30. Just a sampling

Here are just two examples. The threads scroll by so fast on the major fora its hard to keep up and I'm too pissed to fish out the numerous offensive comments I've read just today. Thanks for asking, though. (I mean that sincerely.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4395386&mesg_id=4395386

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4395947&mesg_id=4395947

Y'know, I try to be good-natured about it all, but today I've just had my fill. This stuff has been going on wayyy too long on DU, day after friggin' day.

[Baconfoot]

63. I read the main threads, the titles to all comments, and a few comments.

I must have missed something. But, as I say in the Subject, I didn't read the full text of every comment.

In the first thread, it seems DU people are mocking a church for terminating someone's membership because they did not tithe. The feeling being expressed there is that the church should not have terminated her membership just because she has fallen on hard times.

In the second thread, people seem to think that there is some irony in donatating sheets to a homeless shelter after first having used them for a pro-Bushite purpose. I think the real problem in that thread is a bit of a lack of ability to confront the fact that Republicans can be generous too.

-mg

[theHandpuppet]

88. I see you missed the comments about...

... people from that area handlin' snakes and having outhouses for bathrooms.

I'm not going to point out every demeaning comment in that thread or others; it's all to obvious its much too easy for some folks to overlook them.

[LSK]

96. if you have to go digging that deep into a thread

I would hardly say it is common here. There are THOUSANDS of threads here each day, there are bound to be a few comments that you dont like. But blaming most of DU for a few comments buried deep in some posts is not fair.

[theHandpuppet]

103. It's not just a few

They're woven throughout many threads here, day after blinkin' day. Yes, the message may be subliminal, but it's there all right. It's just that too many folks haven't been paying attention. There's a cumulative effect that's probably not noticeable if you're not the one on the receiving end of the venom and/or cruel jokes.

I've had so many battles over this issue lately -- particularly during the Schmidt-Hackett campaign -- that I finally reached my limit and I'm afraid I just got pissed off.

If you don't think there's a problem here, fine, but I'm giving fair warning -- I'm going to have my finger in the alert button because I will no longer tolerate some of the ill-informed and at times downright vicious poor bashing I've found in these fora. The offenders may be few in terms of the vast number of decent and understanding folks here, but ALL Duers must join in rejecting the stereotypes and intolerance.

[leanin_green]

149. Truth be told, Handpuppet. . .

the comments you talk about and the attitudes that go with them are part of the reason there's such a backlash from the south and midwest against the Democratic party. Let's look at the facts. USA Today had a great map after the '04 election of the whole country of just how the country broke down by Blue vs Red areas. They even had such detail as to include each county in every state. It wasn't suprising to me that every blue area, in every state, was notably centered around every large metropolitan area of each state. Yes, even heavily Red states like my own Utah, Wyoming, Montana etc. all had heavy concentrations of Blue counties centered around the large metro centers and the state capitols. I call this "Urban Snobbery." I'm also offended by it as well. I support and will add my voice to the cause when I see it on DU.

[Skittles]

122. I would have to agree

I actually did read through the first thread and I read a long time before I could find something that could remotely be considered offensive. I HAVE seen some class-snobbery exhibited on DU but I'd hardly say it is pervasive. I actually see more sexism than classism and I do confront the posters and alert if necessary.

[Baconfoot]

97. I said I must have missed something.

"Waverly is waaaaaay down south in Ohio. I think most of the
churches there have out-houses behind them.
there are a lot of primitive baptist-poison drinking, snake handlin' churches there too"

There you go. A search on "snake" reveals one four line comment in one of the threads. Not exactly a pattern but it's there.

[theHandpuppet]

106. Can't see the forest for the trees?

That's probably the one post that finally set me off but don't think that kind of comment was an aberration here. If you're trying to undercut my point by distilling it down to a complaint over one post, you're playing games with the wrong poster. As Loretta Lynn once said, I may be ignorant but I ain't stupid (though at least one poster here did confuse the two).

Start reading some of these threads through MY eyes and you might be surprised what you find within even a week of visiting various fora here. If there is only a minority of DUers here making racist posts, is that okay? Should we shrug them off? How about one or two misogynic slams or homophobic slurs in a thread here or there? Nothing to worry about?

The point is the cumulative effect of daily posts insulting poor folk is one that should not be tolerated. Granted, it's perhaps especially hard for me because there have been too many times I have had to bite my tongue, laugh off an offensive comment, or even played along because it's these kinds of comments that make me ASHAMED of my own background.

Not any more.

[tnlefty]

94. Thanks for posting the links.

I've got some more reading to do. :hi:

[WiseButAngrySara]

109. Thanks, I was going to ask the same question...although I see a

sampling of it on this thread, I suppose, because of the (#13 deleted message) poor/stupid equivalency! (Not that I'm saying it's equivalent; IMHO quite the opposite) I didn't read #13 b4 it was deleted...just going by what others said in response to the post.

I'll read these other links. It's surprising how much you can miss on DU; everything moves at such a rapid pace!

[txindy]

126. I've noticed quite a bit of it, myself

Particularly in the threads talking about Crawford. Lots of nasty comments about country folks, never mind that one of them donated his land to Cindy while the one who ran over the crosses is a REALTOR from Waco.

[eridani]

154. Those look like anti-Bush supporter, not anti-poor--

--but I do know what you mean. I've seen other examples here. REading anything by Joe Bageant is a good antidote, I've found.

[havocmom]

41. Tried to find links to a couple from Sunday that were especially bad

but pages not showing up on search.

There were some so bad I was about to walk away from ANY work for the cause. The hatered was so bad that I felt like "fuck you all, if you are no different than the freepers..."

Spent Monday AM writing thank you PMs to the few who posted against the bigorty. That helped, as did some thread suggesting that city/rural rivalry is NOT helpful.

Really sorry I could not find the pages. They were enough to make you puke.

[theHandpuppet]

58. And not just this particular forum, but all DU fora

I had just gotten back from Crawford when I read a thread on GD(Politics) forum where a DU poster was ridiculed for suggesting that a sort of "counter cookout" be held at the Peace House, one that might have appeal to working folks not accustomed to vegan meals (which, by the way, were absolutely delicious and I truly thank the chefs). Well by golly, don't you know that only poor and ignorant people eat hot dogs and hamburgers? I couldn't believe the response this suggestion was getting, and although I tried to support the poster's suggestion after a while I just couldn't take the condescending comments anymore.

I grew up in a family where my parents and grandparents often ate "vegan" before it became popular because they couldn't afford a piece of meat. So go ahead and make fun of folks like that because they want a hot dog.

Each and every year my neighborhood puts on a block party to benefit charity, even though most of my neighbors, including the organizer, are barely subsisting above the poverty line. One of the biggest treats is free food for the children, many of whom do not have adequate protein in their diets. Those children gobble down those hamburgers and hot dogs as if it was their last meal.

A little more compassion and understanding for the working poor would be mighty nice.

[WiseButAngrySara]

112. This post brought tears to my eyes! Thanks so much for sharing this

and I hope that this entire thread will be read by many/most on DU. I will keep it kicked. I imagine that the poor have MUCH more compassion than those who give to Charity to have it declared as an income tax deduction. My ex-husband did this, and when I discovered it, it was one of the first of the last straws that broke the camel's back. A biblical saying, 'don't let your right hand know what your left is doing,' or 'don't give with the right hand and take with the left' applies to most so-called charitable giving; they give to receive praise for thier 'goodness' or they give to receive tax deductions. The poor giving to the poor must be one of the best examples of true charity, IMHO.

[BQueen]

69. Try your browser history (if you want to....)

if you place your cursor over the page address in the history window it will show the title of the page for that address -- main post title for first view, your title if you responded...(at least IE does this)

[havocmom]

77. I refuse to use IE and I empty my history on a regular basis.

Most particularly after the shit fest Sunday night. Have high blood pressure and did not want to be tempted to look at those posts again. Tried several searches and advanced searchs on DU and failed to track them down.

There really were some revolting remarks made on them. If you really want witnesses, I will PM the people I thanked for sane posts on them and ask if they might PM you.

[BQueen]

90. Oh, not challenging your account

just suggesting an alternative way to find them if you wanted to...some people aren't as web savvy (which you obviously are, since you won't use IE), so I never assume on that front.

didn't mean to seem as though I didn't believe you (check below, I weighed in on the 'good' side ;) )

peace :hippie:
BQ

[havocmom]

100. Didn't take it as a challange : - ) But really wanted to make the point

about how bad some of the posts lately have been. We do not help our cause by writing off whole sections of the nation. Tried to make that point with some of the anti-rural posters but it fell on deaf ears.

Makes me wonder just what they were trying to accomplish, but I do not have a strong enough stomach to check winger boards to see how many anti-rural DU posts were quoated there. One of the offending posters was here recently, complaining that wingers had taken his/her remarks out of context and twisted them. Wanted to ask if they were complaining or bragging, but just didn't want to waste the effort.

[Siena]

17. Well said.

But can you give links to some of these comments you are referring to?

[Pepper32]

19. You're right! Thanks for speaking out. (eom)

[BOSSHOG]

23. Let me offer an alternative viewpoint

I live in South Mississippi and everyday I see poor Americans ekeing out a living but by god supporting bush as if he were god himself. I see baptist churchs about every half mile on the highway which are filled to the brim on Sunday Mornings then I read in the news about an inordinate amount of crime occuring in a "christian" community, often defendants with very prominent names. I see advertisements for DNA and drug testing. I check out the voting returns and discover that my part of the country voted overwhelmingly for george bush; so while they are not giving him millions in donations, they are giving him something as valuable, votes. The poor and uneducated have allowed themselves to be used by the republican party and you and I are suffering because of it. The poor in this part of the country rail mightily against Cindy Sheehan while avoiding the recruiters offices. The poor didn't send us to Iraq but they had one pretty big fucking significant hand in sending the man who did send us to Iraq to the white house.

I spent 24 years supporting and defending the constitution.
I consider christian conservatives regardless of income as the number one domestic enemy of our constitution. If that's class warfare, so be it.

[Burried News]

26. At times I resemble that remark. When you see me do it call me

on it. I've deleted posts before and will do so again. My most recent probably involved Larry Northern - he deserved every bit of what he got.
We can chat about on a case to case basis.

In other cases I am making fun of myself - on a board that isn't always clear - so I'll go easy on me from now on.

You dune rayat to try to keep the nayborhood descent buudd - :)

[Rich Hunt]

28. thanks

Fact is, some people never got over the New Deal, and have had a vendetta ever since.

[lildreamer316]

29. Even though I NOW have money

(and I got it the old-fashioned way:inheritance!) I consider myself among the poor of the country because I used to be. So did my SO; he used to be homeless. Memories of that never leave you; you never really grasp the fact that you are ok now; you know? You keep waiting for the other shoe to fall. When I didn't have money I worked until I did. I used to work 60 to 75 hours a week and I was a size 3-not because I didn't eat; but because I didn't sleep (I am 5'8"). I have been without food; sometimes without power. The last 2 happened when I was PREGNANT so I gave in and applied for Medicaid. Saved more than MY life; that's for sure.
I attacked a guy in the Lounge the other day because he started a thread QUESTIONING WHY HE SHOULD TIP SO MUCH. Hello. If that isn't class warfare I don't know what is. Give me a break. I have my Irish Cherokee pride and don't you ever disparage those less fortunate; you'll have me to deal with. Now that I have money I have supported a couple of struggling single mother friends to the tune of $3000.When I needed I got; I'm trying to retun the favor to the Universe.
Stripper by need; entertainer by choice. Peace out.

[jonnyblitz]

31. ...

:thumbsup: :hi:

[lildreamer316]

51. Good to see you too.

How's life treatin' you?

[jonnyblitz]

52. life is good! thanks for asking...

hopefully you and yours are well also..

[johnnie]

34. I don't agree with "class warfare" anywhere but..

Am I missing all of the posts? I haven't really seen a lot of those type of posts here, but I also understand that there are thousands of posts a day, and a lot of times there are people here to post things to rile up people so they start threads on the "bad DU people".
I guess I will have to look for them myself. I must have skipped those.

[LSK]

40. i dont know...

I do not see much attacks on the poor here. I see a lot more attacks on the rich CEO types then I see attacks on the poor.

Class warfare does exist and it should be discussed. But the class warfare that you mention, I just do not see it here.

[Greyhound]

89. Then you're not looking n/t

[BQueen]

43. I'm with you

and folks should spare some thought to how many Texans, Ohioans, Floridians, other Red State residents post here. It just wears on you after awhile to constantly be referred to as idiots. Esp. since that's what the RW relied on to claim victory in Fla and Ohio.

I grew up poor, but that didn't make me stupid. We were even raised Eisenhower Republican, but I'd say only one out of eight kids identify as Repub now.

If you want people to listen to what you have to say, you need to give them some respect. And if your own bias prevents you from doing so, you need to compensate for it.

[Hubert Flottz]

47. Great post...

No flame from here!

[ironman202]

50. ummmm... r u reading the same DU that I am?

poor bashing? maybe i'm focusing on dofferent things, but I don't see that.

[ironman202]

66. oh now I get what you're after...

The problem is, the poor don't vote and those that do sometimes are persuaded to vote against their own selfinterest. There is a lot of code going on in this thread. This thread is not about the poor, it's about southerners inferiority complex. So be it. I know there are plenty of people in the south who don't subscribe to the racist/fascist agenda. I don't think anyone is putting you down. It's the dominent paradigm down there that is despicable..

[ultraist]

84. Kerry won 63% of the poor vote

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Under $15,000 (8%) Bush: 36% n/a Kerry: 63% 0%

$15-30,000 (15%) Bush: 42% n/a Kerry: 57%

[TwilightZone]

54. It's easier to blame things on a label than to look at the underlying

issues or to identify the real source of the problem.

Part of that is ignorance; part is laziness.

For example, it's easier to say, "those morons in the South (or any other region, group, or class)" than to identify the small subset of people to whom the blame for a particular issue resides.

On a similar note, people in the "blue" states need to remember that there are plenty of us liberals in the red states, too.

51% red does not make 100% of the people evil.
And, 51% blue does not make 100% of the people liberals.

[Ron Green]

56. There IS a relationship between poverty and ignorance....

I don't think any reasonable person would deny this. However, the relationship is not clear-cut or simply understood. It does involve education sufficient to get beyond the here-and-now of immediate gratification, although for someone in poverty "instant gratification" might be his or her next meal.

I've thought about a grid on two axes: One axis is the continuum from ignorance to wisdom, the other from poverty to wealth.

Normally you'd expect wealthy and wise to co-exist in someone who had successfully lived and managed his affairs, and poverty and ignorance to go together in a low-functioning person. However, when you look at the other extremes, such as the poor but wise person (a Holy Man, for example, or educated and well-grounded people living simply) or the wealthy ignoramus (our own president comes to mind), the picture becomes more murky.

My own never-ending question is this: Is it possible to educate masses of people away from the need for instant gratification and toward the hard work of citizenship? I'm afraid the answer may be "no," in which case the class war may well become a shooting war someday.

[lildreamer316]

64. My point above goes to this ^.

It is a known fact that many whom we consider genius also have a bad grasp of common sense; which means they don't handle money well (or jobs). The thing is to find a way of supporting yourself that works with the way you think. There are many who cannot do this.

[Ron Green]

76. Exactly. Which is why, in my opinion, we need both the market and

the state system of assistance. The problem is that the market is driven by nothing more than profit, and will therefore corrupt from greed, and the state system is driven only by care, and is therefore corrupted by inefficiency. The only way it can all work together is with leadership from the very top, leadership that is wise and can communicate to people connection and citizenship, rather than simple consumption.

[theHandpuppet]

85. Good question

The matter of how and who shapes a society's "conscience", as it were. To be honest, the older I get, I more I wonder whether democracy and unbridled capitalism are truly compatible bedfellows. From what I've seen, I'd have to say no.... and that's what scares me.

[dalaigh lllama]

131. ..and a relationship between wealth and ignorance, too

wasn't it mommy bush who didn't want to sully her "beautiful mind" with ugly reality?

I'm from a rural area in a red state. I have a college degree and continue to pursue knowledge decades later. Pursuit of knowledge isn't necessarily an American "value." I think one of the problems in America is a sort of attitude of: "learn enough to do your job and that's all you need to know." Look around -- intellectuals aren't respected from high school on. It's the football players who receive all the kudos.

I saw a special on book study groups in Britain where folks who drove lorries and laid bricks, etc., were all reading some great literary classic each month so they could go to a discussion group each month -- just for fun. I don't think that's something that would be impossible in the states, I just don't see it as something that would be "popular" enough to do. I read a book decades ago called "Anti-Intellectualism In America." It pretty much hits the nail on the head.

After all my rambling, I guess my point is: it doesn't matter if someone is poor or wealthy. If they don't have the time or the intellectual curiosity to inform themselves, they'll keep on buying W's simple soundbytes.

[GoneOffShore]

143. Welcome to DU

And yes, there is a strong vein of anti intellectualism in this country.
My wife is constantly amazed when we go to France at the numbers of people on public transport who are reading books - not magazines, not newspapers, not trashy novels, but books.
I've also encountered in Paris 'clochards' (street people) with cheap bottles of wine, sitting, begging, and reading or discussing ideas with their comrades. The begging was almost an afterthought.

[eridani]

155. And that anti-intellectualism is very much a cross-class thang. n/t

[Ron Green]

163. Anti-intellectualism in America

You said it, and there's a long history of it, from the movies of the '40s and '50s whose protagonists are pitted against foppish Europeans, to modern urban middle-school culture where it's uncool to read, study or "act smart."

I can see where the anti-intellectual "man of action" comes from as a rebellion against the "parent" culture of Europe, but today's virulent dumbing-down has got to be part of the grand plan to enslave the masses by promising not to make them think.

[I concur]

60. I'm new but what I've seen makes me completely agree...

...and another thing: Why does the word "fuck" have to be so prevalent in many of the postings I see?

[dxstone]

79. Welcome to DU, I concur...

And I mean that in a warm and welcoming way...
But you should be aware that people tend to speak their minds on this board, and really don't like being censored, especially over trivialities...
Cuz there are so MANY important issues we're dealing with here, and trying to share information and get the word out to others who are still quite deeply asleep; but we're not robots, just people with good hearts and strong feelings and occasionally, potty-mouths...

For nearly five years, we've been living under one of the worst, most evil administrations this country has EVER known (if not flat-out THE WORST and MOST EVIL)... the damage they've done is nothing short of INCREDIBLE (just as I predicted back in 2000, ahem, ahem, ain't I the smarty-pants?)... so if people get a wee bit hot under the collar from time to time, and blow off a little steam via a few curse words, what's the big deal?
I mean, really, when you think about it, it's just a fuckin' word...
Again, though, and sincerely: Welcome to DU.
If you can take the heat, you're quite welcome here.
d

[Ron Green]

86. Welcome, and I agree that the "f" word is overused around here...

maybe because most people don't use their real names, and the "persona" can let it rip; perhaps some are in such a state of righteous anger that they just have to vent; or it could be the general decline in non-profane choices of adjectives.

In any case, it's a shame to bring out the "big one" in casual speech, 'cause then what do you have left when you're REALLY pissed off?

[trekbiker]

115. at least saying FUCK is allowed here...

try it over at Freako republic and see how long your post hangs around..

the true obscenity is Bush and his Neocon cabal and the death and destruction they've brought about..

[Megahurtz]

65. Kick!

:kick:

[dxstone]

67. YOU stop it!

Haha... just kiddin'...
Truth is, though, I really don't know what you're referring to; some of it may be Freeps-in-hiding, but I think what you're mostly referencing is NOT poor-bashing at all; when we go after no-neck geek redneck dum-dums like the 2 Larrys, we're going after IGNORANCE...
BOTH those imbeciles have probably 10 TIMES what I've got; the one's got a house, the other a truck... it's ME that looks like the winner in the Negative Worth Sweepstakes...
This has NOTHING to do with 'personal worth'... it's all about where you fall on the evolutionary scale, particularly in terms of grey matter and basic civility.
Least that's THIS po' boy's take on it...
d

[Swamp Rat]

128. LOL!

¿ :rofl: ?

[dxstone]

136. LOL right back at ya!

:rofl:

PRICELESS!!!
d

[Swamp Rat]

144. I Just finished this a few minutes ago:

:hi:

[dxstone]

153. Not enough E's in SWEEEEEEET!

But I'm still diggin' the lil' Limbaugh goin' Oink!
Bwaaah-HAAA!

[trekbiker]

72. who is more stupid??

the rich person who votes for the Dem even though he/she knows that they could personally do better financially with Bush in office??

or the poor person voting for Bush because they are fooled by the spin or hate gays, "Liberals", etc., and either dont know or dont care that the health care and living wages they NEED will be negatively impacted..

at least the rich person has a good excuse for voting against thier own "self interests", ie., preserve the environment, preserve the US constitution, preserve the financial health of our nation... and everything else that Bush has destroyed

[TwilightZone]

75. An old joke says that Republicans should really be Democrats because

they can actually afford it.

[QC]

78. The poor Bush voters likewise believes that they are voting to preserve

something very important, like moral values, the family, etc. You might disagree with them, as I certainly do, but there is no denying that they are sincerely making a tradeoff between varying interests. Not all interests are economic, as you note yourself here.

And, of course, quite a few people believe that there's really no meaningful difference between the parties on economic matters. As they see it, both parties favor shipping their jobs away (see NAFTA/CAFTA), importing cheap labor, etc., so they might as well vote for the party that allegedly respects their "values."

In short, the whole voting-against-one's-interests issue is not as simple as it is usually assumed to be.

[libertypirate]

81. The smallest minority in america the wealthy

control the largest majority in America. The smallest minority has become the only influence to the American government. Freedom isn't choosing between the opinion provided by 6 large corporations and their news supply chain. Freedom isn't believing America remains a constitutionally mandated country its knowing that America is constitutionally mandated.

I would ask that if you think the problem isn't the wealthy in America to expand your definition of inflation. If you only think inflation is about how things cost more you would never know that it’s really about the value of money and while the distribution of money doesn’t change that often its value does. Those who have the money benefit greatly from a system that holds the rest of us under it’s thumb; simultaneously increasing the value of those that control it while reducing the value of those that don’t.

[johnaries]

82. Isn't it their own fault, for choosing to be poor?

:sarcasm:

[ultraist]

91. LOL! Yes, they are LAZY, drug addicts who leach off of welfare!

:eyes:

[HootieMcBoob]

92. The only class warfare I see on DU

Is regular folk trying to take the political system back from the wealthy corporations and their paid lobbyists who own the politicians and write the bills that the Republican congress push through and eventually make law.

I also see a tremendous frustration with the way that many Americans who vote for these politicians are unable to see that they are being cynically manipulated to vote against their own self interest and against the very "values" that they say they hold so dear.

And I haven't seen any real proof of any bias against the poor in anything that anyone on this thread has presented.

For God's sake I myself am poor! I have no health insurance at all and the only place I feel at home and able to complain about my situation and talk about ways to overcome it by helping to elect progressive legislators is here on DU and in a few of the other liberal blogs.

So, unless someone can show me a pattern of "class warfare" that is biased against the poor - I have to say that I smell something fishy in this whole thread.
:wtf:

[theHandpuppet]

99. You find my thread "fishy"?

Well thank you very much. I'm not the only one who's noticed the recurring problem here, but then maybe I'm just a Freeper in disguise.

I suppose this came to a head because I'm still smarting from all of the ill-informed comments made during the Schmidt-Hackett race, when it was actually the rural poor who voted for Hackett by large margins. But a day doesn't go by when I read comments here deriding "hillbillies", ignorant rednecks" and the like. When yet another post was made today about my own home stomping grounds being home to poison swillin', snake-handlin, outhouse-using ignoramuses, I finally had my fill.

If you find my anger fishy, so be it.

[Burried News]

111. He didn't say your anger is fishy. Anger just is.

What I hear him saying is that something is missing.
What is missing is the word 'hurt' - which shouldn't have to be supplied We always expect that it should be understood. When it isn't we get even more angry. Hope this helps - actually helpful or not I'm gone and here at Odd Lot - when its gone its gone.
Leavin afor eye get my ayes kicked

[theHandpuppet]

118. Thank you, Burried News

Your posts have been well-reasoned and understanding. I'm afraid my temper got in the way of cogently expressing what I was truly feeling.

[Burried News]

134. Sometimes Right Mostly Wrong Always CONfused. Backatya

[HootieMcBoob]

113. I apologize for the "fishy" remark

But, being poor myself I would think that I would be more sensitive to this kind of stuff. I grew up in what I still jokingly refer to as a white-trash/rust-belt family. There were times when our evening meal consisted of nothing more than grilled welfare-cheese sandwiches.

I can honestly say that I've never seen anyone bad mouth the "poor" on DU - now that's not to say that it's never happened and I surely could have missed it. I've heard lots of frustration with "ignorance" and I consider that a completely different matter.

As I said - what I see for the most part is frustration with people who continue to allow themselves to be manipulated by GOP propaganda and end up making things worse for themselves by voting against their own self-interest.

You are right though that calling people names isn't going to help bring anybody around to our side.

[theHandpuppet]

114. That's okay

I'll admit I'm feeling a wee bit testy because I've had this argument too many times over the past month or so.

One of the problems in discussing this topic is -- as was exhibited within this very thread -- that there are folks who equate poor with ignorant or stupid.

IMHO, I have a much greater problem with the wealthy who vote for Republicans than with the poor who do so; the former might vote that way to protect their own selfish interests, whereas the poor may vote for "values" that have nothing to do with money or even their own interests, though it is actually the manipulative rich and powerful (including some organized religions) who have packaged up and marketed those very "values" to them. In many rural areas these folks get nothing but hate radio and fox news all day long, every day. Oh how I wish Air America could get on the airwaves in more rural areas!

Further, it is a common misperception that being poor means you vote GOP. The Dems still hold strong among the urban poor, and the recent Hackett-Schmidt race illustrated that the rural poor can and DO vote Dem, but it is the wealthier 'burbanites who sometimes make all the difference in a GOP win.

I just hope folks will be a little more thoughful when they start pointing fingers of blame. We'll never get out of this mess unless we do it TOGETHER.

[Old_Fart]

168. "We are lazy"

Yes, we are lazy when it comes to reading the content and then deciding what someone is trying to say. The OP is making very good points and there is nothing fishy about what is being said.

[Burried News]

110. I think if you read post #58 it will make things clearer.

It is very good. I think 'class warfare' misses the mark. 'Prejudiced' and 'inconsiderate' seem better choices.
It seems 'fishy' because usually no one post captures it - it is a cummulative effect kind of thing. So getting a handle on it isn't easy but that doesn't mean there is nothing there - it is kind of like an odor so your choice of fishy is interesting.

[derby378]

93. I must have missed a real fireworks show

I've got nothing against the rich. It's those who want to maintain a permanent underclass that I can't stand.

[spuddonna]

95. Flaming the people who voted for Bush makes no sense...

Many of these people have bought the 'catapulted propaganda' hook, line and sinker. I'll make my own generalization that many are Christians who have been told, "We're just like you! See our platform? It's exactly what you want, isn't it!? Don't be afraid, come here...That's right... Now, just drink this Kool-Aid and everything will feel better..."

I equate these people with the citizens of a country where state sponsored propaganda is the norm and those who advocate other political ideas are chased by the police. Do you hate and vilify the citizens? No. But the way to win is to create you own UNDERGROUND to connect to those citizens who question. The ripple effect spreads, and soon, more and more people question the propaganda. Soon, people who were drinking that Kool-Aid say, "This doesn't taste right..."

If you attack those people who you are attempting to connect to, well, you're not going to have a very good rate of people droppin' the Kool-Aid glasses, that's for sure!

[melody]

98. and demonizing the rednecks/southerners

I come from a long line of rednecks - my father's people were from Texas - and the vast majority of them are liberal Democrats.

Unfortunately, this faux-Texan (who was born in Connecticut) and the more strident bands of Dixiecrats who were hoodwinked into voting for him, give the illusion that all poor southerners vote that way.

Miss Lillian couldn't have been more southern if she had tried, and she was a liberal Democrat. Bill Moyers is a Texan, too.

Okay, soap box dismounted, but thought I'd make the point.

[theHandpuppet]

116. I'm declaring myself a "Blueneck Hillbilly" from now on

And I did so publicly in a LttE of my hometown newspaper: http://www.portsmouth-dailytimes.com/opinion/letters.cfm

The printed version was much shortened, but the original letter can be read on the Ohio forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=172x7568

[EVDebs]

101. Right on. The battle's over anyway if you listen to Warren Buffett

www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0306-01.htm

"Corporate income taxes in fiscal 2003 accounted for 7.4% of all federal tax receipts, down from a post-war peak of 32% in 1952. With one exception (1983), last year’s percentage is the lowest recorded since data was first published in 1934. Even so, tax breaks for corporations (and their investors, particularly large ones) were a major part of the Administration’s 2002 and 2003 initiatives. If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning."

The poor and the middle class are oppressed because the rich know how to play the game and get the poor and middle class to vote against their own best interests ('What's the matter with Kansas ?).

They're good at what they do and pay good money to destroy this country. We just need to do a better job of educating the masses.

[achtung_circus]

102. No argument from me, and no flames, either.

What has been bothering me in the last few days is the urban/rural split. There is sometimes a totsal disconnect on the part of what I surmise to be "urban" posters to the reality of rural life.

My Grandmother didn't have a flush toilet until her children gave her one for her 75th birthday.

Some people do drive pickup trucks for very good and valid reasons.

Allowing a bunch of vehicles onto a pasture does have negative impacts for the carrying capacity of that pasture, and therefore significant financial repurcussions.

People don't continue to post secondary education for a variety of reasons, some good, some bad, some reasons are simply the lack of opportunity.

That's enough.

Nominated.

[Greyhound]

105. I believe this is a by-product of people's self-delusion.

Speaking as one who been through the rags to riches to rags to riches to rags cycle, I've had the opportunity to deal with people in literally every socio-economic category. The common thread I've witness over and over again is an utter lack of objectivity. The poor generally blame someone or something for their current state, while the comfortable and wealthy deny the large helpings of luck that has enabled them to get to where they are.
How many times have you seen the thirty-something executive that believes to the core of their being that it is their gargantuan intellect and incredible talent that is responsible for the success they are enjoying when, in fact, it is their daddy's golfing buddy that got them the position, and the staff covering up and fixing the screw-ups that are the result of their idiotic decisions. Just like * & Kerry proudly claiming their qualifications as Harvard graduates, when it was family money & connections that got them in. Conversely, the crack-head in front of the 7-11 that blames all his troubles on whitey keeping him down, while demanding that you give them your money so they can give it to their dealer.
Of course we, as a culture, consistently re-enforce this mythology. You can see it in some of the replies to this post.
Education is the key.
Poor people are stupid, and by implication, rich people are smart.
I made my money the old fashioned way.
Hard work inevitably leads to success.
All of the arguments against the mis-labeled 'death tax'.
They're here doing the jobs Amerikans won't do.
And on and on and on and on... :banghead:

[theHandpuppet]

108. I think in this country we are frightened by the poor

In this society poverty is considered to be the result of failure -- either failure of intellect, of ambition, or even of morality. To be poor in this country is to be defeated and unworthy. Ergo, no one wants to identify with the "losers" in this society. People with money and power are the "winners", even though they could also be the most vile creatures who ever walked the earth. Wealth is worshipped.

My take is that many of the poor turn to fundamentalism for the sense of belonging they cannot find in a society which rejects them. This holds true no matter what god someone worships. In a greed-motivated society (or world) poverty is akin to a moral failing, but in the church their "morals" and worth can be measured and held in higher esteem than those whose riches can be measured in dollars and cents.

Make any sense? I'm rambling now and probably should just give it a rest.

[Hubert Flottz]

123. I grew up in a West Virginia coal camp and I'm not ashamed.

It don't get any poorer than that, but it was there that I learned there were other things in life, that were just as important as money. There are some things that no matter how much money you might round up in a lifetime, that you just can't buy with money. Cindy knows that too.

I admire every person on DU, except the freepers and even though I don't always agree with everyone. I don't think there is a person on DU who, is unpatriotic, or insincere, about CARING about our country. We are not cowards either, or we wouldn't STILL be here. What separates us from the bovine freeper types, is the fact that, the people running the GOP, "DON'T CARE!" They even brag about "not Caring" on the radio in Texas, on the Mike Gilligan show.(dork with the megaphone and the bell hop uniform)


Where the democratic party has gone wrong, on a national level, IMO, is to go along with the GOP, just for the sake of getting along and not caring ENOUGH, about some very important things. Things like quality, affordable, education, for the people who are in fact, so poor, that their families have no hope of seeing that the kids, who might want to learn with all their hearts, but who never get the opportunity because the money's not there anymore, get a chance to go to school.

Our spending on public education in America, is a tiny drop in the bucket, compared to the huge sums of our tax dollars, being gobbled up by the DoD every year. Education, is not an issue taken seriously enough, by big government and most of all, by the leadership of the GOP. They want dumb voters, because the uneducated are easy marks, for the slick, $5,000 a plate, fleet footed, high rollers, who promise the world, but who deliver only more of the same old pain, poverty and ignorance.

If you think about it, you can allow the poor uneducated voter, a small measure of forgiveness, because they were mostly kept uneducated, through no fault of their own. A person does not have to be poor to be uneducated and people who have the means of acquiring an education and don't do so, because they are too lazy, or too distracted, to apply themselves, are the uneducated that you can blame a little for their stupidity.

The ones who are dirt poor and uneducated and vote GOP, do so mainly, because they are tricked, or fooled into it, or are voting GOP, because Grandma did and Daddy did. The ones who are uneducated voters by choice and are not from dirt poor families, but who also vote GOP, do so, because they really are too lazy, or stupid, to care. The later group is hard for me to take, I'll be honest.

The problem is, WE need to try and educate EVERY voter we can, on the important issues and try and get them, to care and to vote and vote smart! Look at the people in America that have GREAT educations and they do see and understand, what is going on in the country, yet they sit at home on election day, on their goofy asses and DON'T VOTE AT ALL! Some of them have fucking PhDs and "can't tell the difference, between George Bush and John Kerry"! Too fucking stupid to CARE either! The non voters, are the ones who howl the loudest when things are crashing and burning and going to Hell in a hand basket.

One state isn't a bit different than another state REALLY, they were all just dirt when they were first inhabited by the human race and they will be dirt again, when humans are long gone, if the soil isn't turned to glass by stupid MORANS with nukes.

Guys and Gals, the reason the democratic party has lost ground IMO, is many fold and we can go on fighting amongst ourselves, just like the right wing counts on and let the REAL bad guys get stronger still, or we can agree to disagree and focus all our efforts on learning all we can, every chance we get, about the issues, that are MOST important to the country. We need to talk to every person, rich or poor, who might not know the truth about the issues and to do our best, to turn them out to vote on election day, as the founding fathers expected us ALL to do. We need to hold our reps in congress accountable and we need to stop the voter fraud. We have so many problems today and the way things stand, so little time.

I've been poor and I've been fairly well off too, in my 55 years, but I have never failed to vote, since the year I became old enough to vote and I've voted for but very few(local)people, who I knew nothing about, when I pulled the lever, or punched the chad. The educated non voter, is who we need to blame, if we want to play the blame game, because they truly are the ones who DON'T CARE. We need to stop playing divisive games, like the "Haves" and the "Have Mores" depend on us to go on doing and start to taking back our country for the sake of everyone, rich or poor, young or old.

[Independent_Liberal]

117. Kick!

[girl gone mad]

120. I live in rural Texas.

I live close to a lake, so it's a strange mix of giant lake houses, old farm houses, trailers and manufactured homes.

I live in a farmhouse, but my closest neighbors are mostly in trailers and manufactured homes. I can tell you I didn't see one Bush sign or bumper sticker around here during the last election. The only political sign I saw in the area was a giant banner for Dean, and it was on the side of a trailer.

I'm always taken aback when people make fun of rural Texans. BUsh is not a real Texan and up until he ran for President, he lived in a wealthy part of Dallas, then the Governor's mansion.

It's the wealthy and middle class suburbanites in Texas who voted for Bush in droves, not the rural folks.

[William Bloode]

121. I know how ya feel.

Sometimes the things said and assumed about we who are poor, rural, and southern have me so damned mad at times if the poster was beside me i'd snap their neck in a second. That being said the people of better values around here help make up for it.

Btw, here in my state POOR RURAL folks voted for Kerry,Edwards. Yuppies and yuppie wanna be's voted for the asshat in charge. Also the counties full of big business and high paying jobs went overwhelmingly for captain kumquat, while poorer more rural counties leaned democrat.

I myself happen to be poor. I have been trained twice for different high paying jobs. But now "I" am ignorant because the trade policies of today sent my jobs elsewhere? I am stupid because i only went back to school twice to raise myself out of poverty already, yet due to circumstances beyond my control put me right back there?

[Touchdown]

127. Complain about poor bashing while you rich bash

Funny, I thought you wanted class wrfare to stop.

"Let me give you a clue, folks: it's not the poor in this country who sent us to Iraq, who are raking in billions via corruption and illegal wars, who are profiting from fixed elections, sucking up to lobbyists, driving Hummers, living in mini-mansions and gated communities, stealing from state pension funds, ripping off the American people via corporate robbers like Enron, who are donating millions upon millions into Republican coffers, who own the RW hate radio stations and mediawhore outlets, who spew their twisted visions of our future from their RW think-tanks, or whose policies are being rebelled against in vigils all across this land."

There are Dems who drive Hummers, and other SUVs. Dems sometimes have mini-mansions, some do live in gated communities, and they are standing right beside us in those vigils, believe in the vaalue of the commons, think that corporate cronyism is repulsive even though some Dems even own businesses, and are CEOs of corporations (Jobs, Eisner, Buffet, etc), see the value in Universal healthcare, and what Bush is doing in Iraq is nothing less than war crimes.

I'm not rich, I work for a living, but I make a decent salary, and I have nice things. I her more rich bashing on DU than I do the poor.

I'm not doubting you have experienced poor bashing here, but two wrongs don't make it right.:hi:

[Greyhound]

164. One question

Where were you and what did you do for "not one damn dime" day? :shrug:

[uppityperson]

129. Thank you. Be tolerant of each others differences.

[WiseButAngrySara]

132. Great thread. Thanks.

:kick:

[me b zola]

133. nominated

When I was 18 I moved to a small rural town in Missouri. One of the many things that I learned from my experience there was that all of the millionaires that I was aware of in surrounding communities looked as though they didn't have a plug nickle to their name. Old beat-up pick-up trucks, old overalls, modest homes that looked as though someone impoverished lived there, and some of them looked rather unkempt.

My husband & I are not wealthy, but definitely middle class. We drive a beat up car that we bought for $200 and it gets >45 mpg. We don't dress fancy or have a lot of expensive toys. We are paying off our home, buying land---so that we can live off the grid at a relatively young age. We own outright a 38' catch, so that we can one day travel around the world and scuba dive:) To look at us though, you would think that we haven't a plug nickle.

My husband grew up dirt poor, and knows what is like to have *nothing*, and to be taunted by people for wearing hand-me-downs. We try to balance our charity so that we give what we can to others while still staying on course to build our retirement home in our forties. We also plan to use our land/farm to assist others with food or a place to stay for when things get even tougher. That's what is all about. Being in a position to lend a hand to others who are struggling.


Peace.

[Nothing Without Hope]

135. Another problem: condescension to Southerners.

Our culture is full of this, so it's not surprising that it sometimes appears in DU threads. People who live in Southern "red states" are NOT all ignorant hayseeds. A southern accent is NOT a sign of low intelligence and lack of sophistication.

[Boomer]

139. Condescension to Southerners and the poor

Reading through the posts in this fascinating thread, I saw over and over again the assumption that poor people vote for Bush because they have been "tricked", that they need to be "educated" in the issues so that they will see how they are voting "against their own interests."

There is almost no recognition that for many poor, being rich is NOT a priority. Family, community, church -- these are markers of their value system, not their salary and investment portfolio. My father-in-law was a very bright southern Ohio man, born poor. He worked hard to care for his family, but if he felt he had to make a choice between "improving his life" and "doing the right thing", he would do the right thing without blinking.

The Republicans have persuaded large blocks of voters that their concern for moral issues, a concern that is of more importance to them than financial issues, is best served by the Republican party. The Democrats have allowed the "values" debate to be framed by the Republicans and have not taken back the moral high ground.

I've read better defenses of Democratic values on forums like DU than from the party itself. THAT is one reason we're losing voters who are probably more in line with progressive agendas than they realize. It's less a matter of educating the poor than it is a matter of educating THE PARTY and getting them to broaden their perspective.

As it happens I'm an atheist (a lapsed Unitarian) and even I find myself wincing at some of the DU posts containing vituperative scattershot condemnations of Christianity in general rather than targeting specific groups who wrap themselves around the Bible while violating its principles. This goes hand in hand with the disenfranchisement of the poor, for whom Christianity offers a value system divorced from the greed-based merit system that has become predominant in American society.

There are so many ways, both obvious and subtle, in which we can unwittingly show contempt and disdain for people who should be our allies.

[Nothing Without Hope]

145. Well-said, Boomer. I was raised Catholic and am not now Christian

However, I honor respect many people who ARE believing Christians ... and believing Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Jains, Unitarians, Atheists (belief in living with compassion and working for human betterment most definitely counts in my book) and so on. The pseudoreligion that is spouted by the posturing demagogues of the GOP leadership bears no resemblance to the teachings of Jesus, and indeed is in many respects its polar opposite. Rejecting the false, lying platitudes and pious bigotries of the neocons does NOT imply rejection of honest spirituality, Christian or otherwise. To help make the distinction, I call the people who posture and preen while spouting hatred "Fristians."

As you point out, there are many people of honest belief who voted for Bush because they believed that his party stood for morality. We need to be open to them and clarify what is really going on.

[TomClash]

137. I haven't read much poor bashing

but I've read a lot of "class" bashing and I'm really sick of it.

I'm also sick to death of rich people.

I for one like ordinary people and I can proudly say that's one of the reasons I am a Democrat.

[RoyGBiv]

138. Excellent Post : An Observation

I've been here a little over a year, and I've noticed what you're talking about from the first day I lurked. In fact this sort of thing, in combination with a couple other trends that to my mind indicated a double-standard of sorts, is one of the things that prevented me from officially registering for awhile. I didn't consider it pervasive, more of a regularly recurring theme that would get real old after awhile. And, btw, it has become very, very old.

But, obviously, I did register, and I did start participating because, as I said, I didn't see this phenomenon as pervasive. It's something that is present, and at times it is more evident than at others. Certain types of subjects bring it out. From my personal observations, the biggest problem is with various types of humor, whether of the light-hearted, punch-line oriented variety or as a component of a stinging criticism, and this is where I find the double-standard.

If a DUer were to post a sexist or racist joke, that person would, at minimum, be soundly and justifiably criticized. It wouldn't matter how relevant the joke was or how true in that way humor sometimes has a way of being true. Stereotyping people based on race or sex is, to be kind, boorish behavior. Of course, some would defend this as "just a joke," but they would be in the minority and would be criticized just as harshly. Were that same person to post a redneck joke, the responses would either be laughter or groans and little to no criticism. Those that did criticize would themselves become the target of critics. "It's just a joke." Want evidence? Look up various threads in which that tired, boring, not-funny-anymore-at-all joke "Hey, Red States! We're Leaving!" appears.

Some might claim this is not a class warfare joke. If so, I suggest you look at it again. It's not only an attack on the poor generally, but on single mothers, rural people of all persuasions, overweight people, those who cannot afford Ivy League schools, and, of course, those with any religious convictions at all.

And then there's the one phrase that first caught my eye, and it was the subject of a rather intense debate some time last year that, as far as I know, ended in the departure of one DUer who felt much as the OP did. That term is "trailer trash" or more generally the rather rampant habit among many people to poke fun at those who live in mobile homes. The simple fact is this: Some people could never afford a home at all if it weren't a mobile home. The disparaging comments about those who are in this position are nothing at all but an example of class prejudice. Of course, to this some might be tempted to say either "it's just a joke," or "just an expression," or even, "I don't mean anyone who lives in a trailer, but specific types of people ..." Yeah, and I know people who use the "n" word who say they don't mean all black people, just certain types of black people.

That's as close to give specifics as I'm willing to go. Anything more is essentially "calling someone out" because I'd have to point to specific posts made by specific people. Suffice to say many of the people I see do these sorts of things are not freepers-in-disguise, or if they are, they have fooled a lot of us. I even like most of them quite a lot and think they have many valuable things to say, but there is something underneath that makes them think it's okay to make fun of the poor and the weak just because they are, and I don't understand it.

[Boomer]

140. The trailer comments really hit home

My half-sister lived in a trailer her whole life. She was a working-class rural Texas woman who loathed Bush and fought for union rights in her manufacturing job. She grew up poor and stayed poor, because she could never afford to do anything but work as soon as she graduated from high school.

Her children -- all of them brighter than George W. Bush, Dan Quayle or Donald Trump -- remained poor as well, and also live in trailers.

I, on the other hand, graduated with a master degree and work as a software developer and own my home.

Why the vast difference?

I had the good fortune to be the daughter of my father's second wife, a wife with well-to-do parents who paid for my college education AND my graduate school education AND left me enough of an inheritance to put a solid down payment on the house.

I've worked to make the best of every advantage I was given, but I have NEVER fooled myself into thinking that I would be as comfortable as I am today if not for that very crucial boost in education.

Poverty breeds poverty because it takes money to get ahead when you're just average. My partner is above-average and won full scholarships for her entire college education -- I admire her greatly for a feat that I would not have been able to match. But no one should have to be exceptional to get a grip on the middle class life when so many mediocre to inferior people simply start out there and coast for the rest of their lives.

[Nothing Without Hope]

146. My father's mother lived in a trailer. She was very bright, but had never

had an opportunity for education. She liked her trailer just fine and preferred living in it with her independence intact rather than with any of her children. She lived in Weatherford, Texas, surrounded by country that was covered in bluebonnets in spring.

I am the first person on either side of my family to finish college, and the fact that I then went through graduate school for a PhD made me a sort of an oddity for a while until I could convince them that I didn't believe it was relevant outside a narrow professional field. There are very intelligent people in my family, but they didn't get my chances. I was encouraged by a few key high school and college teachers, or else I would never have considered trying for a higher degree. (And let's hear some sincere thanks for teachers who impart such hopes and shape such dreams!) I worked through all of it and paid off my college loans over many years, for the scholarships only covered part of the cost.

Earlier generations of my family didn't have the luxury of indulging in a long-term education. They had to get out there and deal with life and raise their families and put food on the table, while I could take the time to get an advanced degree. I may not be wise, but I've never been fool enough to think myself superior to my "less-educated" relatives, and I do take umbrage when I see other people like them being put down.

[Old_Fart]

165. "Wow"

More than one person has noticed.

[Cobalt Violet]

141. I agree.

I have noticed it too. I'm not a rural person. I can consider myself working poor. I don't really want to mentioning which topics seem to split Dems along class lines. But I have notice one especially glaring one.

[moondust]

147. Lots of smart people are not wealthy.

Simply because they are not greedy. Some couldn't care less how much wealth they accumulate. To hell with materialism!

[AlleyCat123]

152. Thank you!

I am poor--- not destitute, but poor--- and it's very discouraging to read some of the statements to which you refer. I try my hardest to lead a decent life, my VERY modest home is both clean and well-maintained, my children were well-raised (I think) and lead decent, productive lives. Just because I have very little money should not give anyone a reason to look down on me, or anyone similarly situated.

Again, thank you.

[theHandpuppet]

157. Hang in there -- and welcome to DU!!

You have a lot to be proud of, as I'm equally certain your family is proud of you. Welcome to the DU community!

[AlleyCat123]

162. Thank you.

:hi:

[mtnsnake]

158. I think DU is just the opposite.If anything, this place sticks up for poor

people, at least for the majority of the time that I've been here.

I don't doubt that you're finding some scattered posts disparaging the poor, but out of the thousands of posts that cross this board every day, I think one could pick just about anything out if one wanted to. 99% of the time that I read the posts, I don't see any posts that are meant to be condescending towards poor people. If I did, I would go to a different site. The main reason I started spending time at this forum a year ago is because of how this place sticks up for the common citizen of this country, and I still find it that way.

I appreciate you sticking up for the poor, though. I've been through it myself.

[Nikia]

159. I take issue with the whole poor=stupid or ignorant idea

I grew up in a semi rural area and now also live in such an area. My family background is diverse social class wise. I went to a toptier private liberal arts college that is considered for rich kids by reputation but has a generous financial aid program which allows many poor students to attend. I now work in a food production facility where the majority of employees would be considered working poor.
There are plenty of poor people who are intellectuals, both in urban areas and rural areas. My grandfathers family from Appalachia prided themselves on being educated, even though for most of them it did not bring them out of poverty. Every place that I have worked with low wage workers, including where I work now, has had its share of intellectuals, discussing ideas and bringing books to break. At my own college, there were many poor students who appreciated their education more than than the rich student sitting next to them whose parents could easily afford the $25,000/year tuition.
By contrast, many rich people are not intellectuals. As I said, many of the rich students that I went to college with did not appreciate their education as much. They were not there to learn, but to get a degree so that they could get the job that someone (relative, parents business associate, ect.) had already gotten for them. Upper middle class parents always send their children to college and they help them find jobs. Regardless of ability, it is something that they feel entitled to.
We must also remember that colleges professors, who are very educated and usually very bright, often make middle class salaries, almost always under six figues and more often in the $40,000/year range. It is only bright people employed in the right fields or who own successful businesses who are wealthy.
As for going to college at all, many recent graduates are not finding jobs that make use of their degree. Other recent grads are finding jobs requiring degrees which pay poorly. I have seen job ads for lab tech requiring BS degrees in science paying as little as $9/hour. It is not enough to be educated to have money. One must either have good connections, which the already wealthy have a big advantage at, or go into a very specific high paying career field and get lucky.

[moondust]

161. Good post.

Higher education has become a crap shoot when it comes to finding a good job. What's hot today may not be tomorrow and it's often who you know, not what.

I often sense that we are all getting screwed regularly because too many important jobs are filled by those affluent kids whose parents bought their way through school and then used their connections to get them good jobs. George Bush is Exhibit A. I think they're responsible for a good deal of this pathetic government, offshoring race to the bottom, failure to develop alternative fuels and good public transportation, rotten corporate media, on and on...

[Old_Fart]

166. Do you know what the worse part is?

People think it and post it on the internet. If you meet them face to face they pretend that they care. Every party has hypocrites and what you are seeing and talking about is a very good example of one.