Get out of Iraq NOW - at what consequence?

[ripple]

Ok, I’ve been really struggling with this issue and I’d like to get a little bit of feedback. I am staunchly opposed to our presence in Iraq and I’ve participated in numerous anti-Iraq war rallies and peace vigils. I believe that the **** administration’s actions have not only been treasonous, but he should also be tried by the World Court for war crimes against humanity. I’m pissed to beat hell that a Special Prosecutor hasn’t been appointed to investigate his administration’s outright lies to the American people, especially in light of the DSM revelations.

With that said, I am just having a very difficult time embracing the “troops out of Iraq NOW” mantra that I keep hearing from folks that I usually agree with. I’m certainly not in favor of “staying the course” and I don’t at all believe that the folks who want the troops out of Iraq immediately are cowards who just want to “cut and run”.

Iraq is in such a volatile state right now that I really don’t believe our nation’s lack of presence there will do anything to stop the insurgency. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. If we pull out all military presence, what definitely WOULD result is the mother of all civil wars and a probable mass genocide. Of course, if we stay there (and almost certainly, if we “stay the course”), a civil war might be on the way, anyway.

Although I didn’t and don’t support the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, I can’t in good conscience support a policy that would result in the outright slaughter of tens and perhaps hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

In a couple of words, I’m stuck. I do believe we need a viable exit strategy, but I’m not sure what that would be at this point. Here are a few rudimentary thoughts I’ve had:

- Require every Iraqi citizen to acquire a national ID card that cannot be duplicated. They would have thirty days or so to get one and also be required to carry it at all times. Anyone not carrying one would be deported, unless they carried something similar to the US work visa.

- As a follow-up to that, the borders of Iraq would be sealed (our military could move to the borders and phase-out from there) and refugees would be allowed to exit, and only those with valid work visas would be permitted to enter the nation.

- We would allow other nations to receive some of the spoils of war, as long as they supplied a certain amount of border security and/or refugee relief. This would be time-limited and these nations would be required to train the new Iraqi government on the rebuilt infrastructure. They would also need to negotiate a contract directly with the new Iraqi government after, say five years, in order to continue to receive compensation.

I know that as Nazi-ish as some of that sounds, it still isn’t going to be enough. I’m hoping to hear some feedback from the rest of you about how we can minimize the damage to a nation that has already been assaulted enough.

Also, while I look at this largely in humanitarian terms, I have a creepy (tin-foil hat) thought that, knowing the Iraq situation is only getting worse, ****(led by Rove) might just throw his hands in the air and say “it’s obvious that the majority of people don’t believe in staying the course, so although I don’t agree, we’ll immediately pull the coalition troops from Iraq”. If that were to occur, he and all of the right wing nuts would sit back and watch the devastation in Iraq, blaming Democrats for every atrocious act. We would see the images from Iraq that we don’t see from Darfur and they would spin it so that it is all OUR fault. Pretty sick, but I certainly wouldn’t put it past that bunch.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and see if anyone else is feeling troubled by this, as well. I would also really like to hear some other ideas for getting out of there without further destabilizing the Middle East and leaving Iraqis to experience infinitely more loss than they have already suffered.

In other words: What, in good conscience, do we do with this mess? :shrug:

[xray s]

1. You have a conundrum

"I can’t in good conscience support a policy that would result in the outright slaughter of tens and perhaps hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians."

That statement applies wheter we stay or whether we go.

It is the same arguement that cost us 54000 American lives in Viet Nam.

We finally left Viet Nam, and today we sell them Pepsi Cola.

[ripple]

6. there are definitely similarities

to vietnam, but in terms of leaving, I believe the risk is far greater than the spread of communism. We're talking possible, if not probable, genocide. Can we really sit back and watch that happen, knowing that our government created the atmosphere for it?

I definitely don't want things to continue as they are, but I wonder if there's a way we can get out that won't leave innocent Iraqis to be slaughtered like sheep.

[NYC Liberal]

8. That is happening NOW

And it will just get worse whether we leave tomorrow or in two, three, ten years. The ONLY difference is is that if we leave now, American soldiers won't be killed in the process.

It's time to bring them home. We've already done the damage. There will be civil war and many will be killed no matter WHEN we leave. So we need to go NOW.

[ripple]

10. you may be right

and if the outcome would be the same, we should get out now. If we do that, I think we should at least assist any Iraqis who wish to save themselves and their families, with seeking refugee status in other countries. Kind of like the evacuation of the jews before WW2. That's how bad I think it's going to get.

[leftchick]

12. genocide is happening now....

sheesh. Have you read any of the exit plans put forth by peace groups and others for extricating the US troops? They look fine to me and definately worth a try.

As Paul Krugman noted, there are no good choices here and that is w**s fault.

[ripple]

13. I agree with you

My point is that we do need an exit plan, and not an abrupt pull-out. I like Paul Krugman and he's absolutely right, *** has left us with choosing between bad and worse. Even the best-case scenario has dire consequences.

[bonito]

2. How are we going to fix the house

with the same carpenters that screwed it up the first place. You fire the carpenter first, then go on from there, knowing it won't be easy.

[knowbody0]

3. exit strategy:

call equal number of Kurds, Shia and Sunni to peace conference.Apologize. Offer restitution in cash for damage done. Leave all Halliburton equipment. Get the fuck outta Dodge

[FtWayneBlue]

4. AND give the oil fields back to the Iraqis. n/t

[steve2470]

5. To me, it's amazingly simple:

1- Are you willing to die in Iraq for this cause ?
2- Are you willing to sacrifice your kids and/or families ?

If not, then why should anyone else ? Time to bring the troops home. Let the Iraqis sort it out. We can give them reparations later on, when the dust settles without our blood being mixed into it.

[ripple]

9. I don't want us there

But I question our collective humanity if we allow masses of innocent, unarmed Iraqis to be slaughtered. They didn't ask for this war. I just think we need to take a realistic look at what would happen if we abruptly pull out.

Reparations sound like a nice solution, but if and when the time came to pay them, it seems to me that we would be offering reparations to those who prevailed in controlling the country, even if they came to power by slaughtering entire societies of people.

[Solomon]

18. You're right ripple. It's far better for us to kill the Iraqis and commit

genocide then if they do it. When we do it, it's not genocide, because, after all, we're the good guys.

[Karenina]

20. Slaughtering entire societies of people

is PRECISELY the activity in which American forces are involved in Iraq.

That's in addition to destroying their history, decimating their infrastructure, humiliating, terrorizing and brutalizing their children, poisoning their land, food and water, TORTURING THEM, providing cover for Amerikkkan corporations to steal their resources while gleichzeitig gouging you lot up the anal orifice, hmmm... did I miss anything? :freak:

[Bridget Burke]

7. "We would allow other nations to receive some of the spoils of war"

Your compassion for the Iraqi people is really touching.

Yes, your other proposals do sound Nazi-ish.

[ripple]

11. I think we need to do whatever it takes

To get other nations involved. It isn't ideal, but good God, we don't have much to work with here. The money won't do them any good if half of their society is wiped out. And keep in mind, I made that proposal a time-limited one, just to get them out of crisis.

Believe me, my concern for the welfare of the Iraqi people is quite sincere.

[KG]

14. yes, the iraqi are such savages, the only outcome of a US pull out

would be a massive bloody civil. so, obviously, the best course is for the US to stay there and do the killing instead. this such a cool idea!

[ripple]

16. I want the US out

But I think we have a responsibility to do so in a way that minimizes the inevitable casualty count in Iraq, if that's even remotely possible.

We didn't ask for this mess and neither did they. And yes, I do believe that a bloody civil war would be inevitable with an abrupt pull-out, not because Iraqis are savages, but because the **** administration so arrogantly pulled the rug out from under them, without regard for the religious strife that has been a part of that area for centuries.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

24. How do you know that the U.S. staying minimizes the casualties?

What if the majority of the violence is due to the occupation? Leaving might minimize the casualties.

How many casualties are being caused by US, the occupation? How many innocent people gunned down because they got too close to a checkpoint for US soldiers/Marines to feel comfortable, or bombed in their house because some rebel activity or arms cache was thought to be there? Is our government giving us any accounting of this? Of course not.

[H2O Man]

15. It is an error

in thinking to assume that Americans should determine what the future of Iraq should be. While I understand and appreciate your obvious concern, the fact that you think that you have the right to consider things such as a national ID card indicates that you are invested in the same thinking that makes others hold the US in contempt. Iraq's future is not the "white man's burden."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. The Iraqis want us out of their country.

A pullout may or may not lead to civil war. I think the chances of a civil war is enhanced, not diminished, by the military presence of US troops.

Inevitably, the US will take sides (if it hasn't already done so) in any conflict which will only make it worse. Right now, BushCo seems to be siding with the Shia (could it be because the oil is on their territory?).

But, the fact remains that Iraq is their country not ours. The US military offers nothing helpful to the mix by being hunkered down in their air-conditioned fortified bases and only venturing out to intimidate and/or kill people.

Add to that the fact that the US has a dismal record of "nation building" including the building of our own. Which included genocide, civil war, insurrections, racism, slavery, repression of women, and all the other messy business of becoming the world's biggest and most dangerous oligarchy.

Out NOW!

[leesa]

19. They are fighting US. WE are the bad guys in this one.

I think it would help if we immediately pulled out ALL US corporate interests and then replace the troops with UN troops if the Iraqis agreed.

[jmatthan]

21. The ripple of "arrogance" could become a "torrent"

The whole concept that one has any right to be in Iraq to solve problems is the height of arrogance and ridiculousness.

And you certainly do sound very very Nazi-ish!!

The Iraqis know how to solve their problems if the Americans quit their country.

The Americans ARE THE PROBLEM.

First and foremost they will probably hang all the American collaborators, Chalabi included. Any objections?

Next they will move the World Court for punishment with permanent incarceration of those who are war criminals, as decided at the War Tribunal on Iraq? Any objections+

Then they will work out their losses and present a bill to the US to pay for this genocide. The US will probably have to pay from now to kingdom come for the havoc, death and destruction they have caused. Any objections?

These are what the Bush regime and their mercenaries are now scared of.

America has lost the invasion and occupation and now have to pay up to the Iraqis.

The Iraqis know how to rebuild their country and their economy out of the American tax payers money!!

You pay and they build!!

[ripple]

22. *sigh*

When I posted my concerns about the potential consequences of an immediate pull-out from Iraq, I did so in hopes that others might either have some ideas that would lessen the likelihood of outright genocide, or that some other perspectives might allay my fears to some degree. I expected some disagreement, but I guess I didn’t expect to be ridiculed, or to have my motives challenged.

I am absolutely horrified about the senseless death and destruction that our nation’s government has brought to the people of Iraq. After what the Iraqi people have been through and are still going through (thanks to **** and his handlers), I have deep concerns about leaving them without a functioning government, with a devastated infrastructure, unusable natural resources, in a country that is now over-run with foreign extremists, and a country in which the over-thrown minority will likely continue to use violent means in an effort to regain control. That volatile combination seems like a recipe for genocide to me. I hope like hell that I am wrong about that, but that is my concern.

I don’t want to stay in Iraq. I don’t think I can state that enough. I also don’t want to see Iraq evolve into the worst humanitarian crisis of our lifetimes if there is anything we can do to help prevent that. Perhaps it’s already a foregone conclusion no matter what action is taken to prevent it. If so, the point of this thread is entirely moot.

I offered up a few ideas off of the top of my head that might help the Iraqis, while at the same time, getting us out of there. They aren’t ideal by any stretch of the imagination, but then again, nothing concerning Iraq is at this point. ID cards do seem fascist, but my thought is that at least in the short-term, it might be a way to get foreign fighters out of Iraq, so that they would be one less factor in the equation as Iraq tries to get a handle on the situation they are faced with. Same goes for getting the infrastructure rebuilt as quickly as possible. Again, I don’t claim that they are necessarily ideal solutions, which is why I asked about other ideas.

Anyway, I guess I’m somewhat bewildered that while there has been plenty of criticism of my concerns and thoughts about a pull-out from Iraq, I saw no criticism for those who imply that as long as American troops are out, to hell with the people of Iraq. I certainly support the troops, however I also believe that the innocent people affected by this war are every bit as important as the uniformed soldiers. Paint me unpatriotic if you will, but if anyone’s idea of patriotism requires a departure from my sense of humanity, they can keep it.

For now, I think I’ve learned to only to voice the concerns that inspired my OP with those people who know me personally and can appreciate my sincerity.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

25. Don't take it personally. There's a lot of RW types who come to post

this kind of sentiment as a foil against "US out of Iraq" people who appear to form a huge majority on this board, it's their "subtle" way of supporting Bush's war effort. So when you have a low post count and come and espouse this you will take some heat. No biggie.

[DaveJ]

29. I don't agree with your orginal assessment

"People need to be responisble for themselves," is something the Repugs always say but never apply in real life. The tribes in the middle east are thusly responsible for their own destiny. Their problems are not ours as long as we can keep them from aquiring WMD, which we had been doing all along.

[underpants]

23. Either completely pull out or double the troops

double them from where? I don't know but they should have done that from the beginning.

You have some tough but good ideas about what should be done in Iraq. Pulling out would just leave a strategically vital area wide open and probably create an absolute blood bath for power that could result in an Afghan type warlord/territory situation.

I don't know either.

[maxsolomon]

26. partition - create green lines across the 3 ethnic areas

that will minimize casualties in their civil war. draw the lines for them, like imperialists before. the kurds know where their border should be & who doesn't belong inside them; the shiites & sunnis are the issue.

or re-install hussein & let him do it.

but here is the thing: we are there to secure our oil supply for 20, 30 years from now. if we pull out, then we've spent our blood & treasure for naught. this may be the way to make a deal with the shiites & kurds - sell us your oil, we give you a country.

[FrankChurch]

27. Juan Cole's ten point plan.

Juan Cole has a great plan to get out of Iraq.

[bpilgrim]

28. pull our military troops, not our $$$ and diplomats, will go a long way

to help re-stabilize the situation.

continuing to pour hell fire (bombs & bullets) on it will only make it worse.

(Rove) might just throw his hands in the air and say “it’s obvious that the majority of people don’t believe in staying the course, so although I don’t agree, we’ll immediately pull the coalition troops from Iraq”

you don't know these people well enough if you are thinking that... they will NEVER admit a mistake but this is even bigger than that, this is about our foreign policy for the next 100 years and OIL. no way are they thinking of giving up on their master plans.

peace

[NNN0LHI]

30. Some thugs kick in your front door with guns blazing

They kill one or two of your family members and terrorize the rest of you. The police come and catch the bad guys in the act.

Would you want the same thugs who just did that to you and your family to stay and help clean up the place, fix the door and other stuff they broke, and be left in charge of any further security?

There is your answer.

Don