Is it sexist to say Bush should "be a man" about things?

[OrlandoGator]

I am involved in another nameless forum in which I recently posted something to the effect of, "Bush just needs to be a man and answer questions." A few women on the board found that line of rhetoric to be offensive and sexist...saying that his gender has nothing to do with his ability to tell the truth.

To an extent, I agree. But I think it sends a powerful image to shatter this fake macho persona that has been carefully crafted for this twit.

In my opinion, a "man" doesn't hide in his little castle while people gather outside his door to ask him questions. A "man" doesn't send kids to die for a cause he can't explain. A "man" doesn't talk with a fake accent in order to pretend he's from somewhere he's not. A "man" doesn't brag about his biggest failures in life.

I don't know...maybe it is sexist. I think this puke needs to butch up and be a man, for once in his pathetic existence.

[Spinzonner]

1. I'd settle for HUman

[omega minimo]

10. Aye. Being Human would do it.

He ain't a man-- he's a puppet.

[Raven Remarks]

130. The photo included...

This photo should be on the new cover of, "My Pet Scapegoat", probably soon to be released. LOL!

[brettdale]

12. agree 100%

agree 100%

[democracyindanger]

2. Small edit

"Bush just needs to be the man he likes to pretend he is..."

[beam me up scottie]

3. It's sexist and insulting

especially your last sentence.

[OrlandoGator]

7. Can you elaborate?

And I hope you aren't interpreting "butch up" as a slur against lesbians.

[beam me up scottie]

11. If a "man" does or doesn't do all of

the above mentioned things, who does?

"In my opinion, a "man" doesn't hide in his little castle while people gather outside his door to ask him questions."

Does a woman?

"A "man" doesn't send kids to die for a cause he can't explain."

Does a woman?

"A "man" doesn't talk with a fake accent in order to pretend he's from somewhere he's not."

Does a woman?

"A "man" doesn't brag about his biggest failures in life."

Does a woman?

If not, what are the other choices?

[OrlandoGator]

15. Man as opposed to boy.

That's my point...I guess I could be gender-neutral and say "be an adult" but what I'm trying to do is knock him off the alpha-male high horse he doesn't belong on.

I don't know...I don't see what is insulting about telling someone to "be a man" and take responsibility for their actions. It's not meant as an attack on women, by any means.

[beam me up scottie]

19. It WAS a sexist slur and it still is.

Why do you need to use it?
Do you use racist language?

[OrlandoGator]

23. I understand that you take offense to it, fine.

Personally I think there is political value in poking holes in Bush's macho "manly man" persona. He's not a "man's man".

A "real man" takes responsibility for what he does. A "real man" is honest in everything he does.

I'm not excluding women here or implying that there are different standards. But Bush is male and I am male and I don't have a problem saying that he doesn't live up to my standard of what a "man" is.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Of course YOU don't take offense to it.

I thought that you wanted to hear from the people that do.

Would you call him a "fag"?
You could, and not be offended by that either.
But others would be.

Liberal progressives have plenty of other ways to rank on republicans without insulting women or minorities.

[OrlandoGator]

48. I don't know if he should be a "fag"...but I know he should be a man.

Hey, we disagree. I'm cool with that.

[Lautremont]

4. As opposed to being a Ro-Man:

[demzilla]

63. The greatest movie ever!

"I must but I cannot!"

-- Robot Monster

[Hello_Kitty]

5. "Be an adult" would suffice

* behaves like a spoiled child. No 57 year old, man or woman, should get away with the petulant attitude and refusal to accept responsibility that he exhibits.

[Mairead]

135. Yes, or "be a grown-up" ...or even "act his age"

He behaves as a complete child of privilege, and I do mean child.

[nofurylike]

6. yes. eom

[bluestateguy]

8. This nation is at war---an illegal war. There's no time for PC silliness.

n/t

[beam me up scottie]

14. PC? Refraining from using sexist or racist language is PC?

So, should we just start using all of the old slurs, since we're a "nation at war"?

[OrlandoGator]

17. I'm not exactly sure how "be a man" is a slur.

That's why I started this thread.

[beam me up scottie]

22. And I explained it to you above.

Do you not understand why slurs are used and why they are offensive?

[omega minimo]

58. What time is it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2024092&mesg_id=2024092

[OrlandoGator]

62. I have no disrespect at all for women.

I view women as equals socially, with a few physical differences. I have a deep and intense respect for Cindy Sheehan and every other woman who is fighting to make a difference in our world.

On the other hand, it is foolish to pretend that we don't have gender identities. When I say, "be a man" I mean "grow up"...but if you really want to parse it, it could also mean "live up to your role as a responsible adult male."

That role might not be significantly different from that of a responsible adult female. But the differences do exist...men and women are wired differently and we often approach things differently (my girlfriend would probably add "wrongly" as well).

To the Bushbots, "being a man" means wearing a cowboy hat and a big belt buckle and clearing brush. To me, "being a man" is something else entirely.

And I don't mean to deride women when I say that.

[nine23]

9. My two cents: I think those few women are being a little too PC.

Given that Bush has continually shown himself to be a petulant little BOY, not to mention his raging immaturity on the world stage, and his thwarted/complete lack of intelligence rendering him incapable of stringing a few words together to make a complete sentence, to say he should "be a man" is NOT so far off base. The gender issue is irrelevant because he WAS anatomically "male" at birth.

However, in the context of your statement, he couldn't pull it off anyway so it's all for naught...

[OrlandoGator]

13. That was my point...I think he should be a man as opposed to a boy.

I'm only 28, so it's not like I'm from the "good ol' days" or anything...but growing up, telling someone to "be a man" wasn't really a man-vs-woman thing. It just meant to grow up and take responsibility for what you're doing.

[beam me up scottie]

16. You didn't say that.

When you say "be a man" it means as opposed to being a woman, please don't rewrite history to make using sexist slurs acceptable.

If you mean not a boy, say that.

[shraby]

34. I saw nothing offensive in what was said.

Calling a spade a spade is not sexist or incorrect. Bush is an adult male and is acting like a child. No two ways about it. It has nothing to do with male/female thing. It has to do with his behavior.

edited for typro

[beam me up scottie]

45. Sorry, but it is offensive.

Just like the references to "balls" in regards to bravery.

[Seabiscuit]

37. Perhaps you're just not familiar with the expression.

You write: "When you say "be a man" it means as opposed to being a woman...."

Sorry, but it's *never* meant "as opposed to being a woman".

It's an old expression addressed only to men who are behaving immaturely - "be a man" = "grow up", i.e. stop being so childish.

It means and has always meant: as opposed to being a boy.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Bullshit.

[Seabiscuit]

162. Ahhhh... denial inspired by hubris.

I suppose you also believe the word "manage" is sexist because it begins with those dreaded letters, m-a-n. Unfortunately, those letters derive from the latin root meaning hand, as in French, la main, meaning the hand. That's why manage means handle. It has nothing to do with sexual distinctions.

I guess you'll call that bullshit too.

[sepia_steel]

166. Um, no

it's not bullshit.

[omega minimo]

18. one little thing

:bounce: YOU'RE WRONG :bounce:

The OP asked "Is it sexist?"
The answer is Yes. (He already knew that)
When will you figure it out?
Maybe another lifetime. You come back as a girl.

[beam me up scottie]

20. Does this go on in here every night?

Gad.

[omega minimo]

25. boys will be boys

B-)

[OrlandoGator]

43. I don't see how words on a screen can be so shocking to people.

Especially when presented in this "what do you guys think?" context.

[beam me up scottie]

46. Who said it's shocking?

Insulting to my intelligence?
Yes.

Offensive to enlightened people?
Yes.

Shocking?
Hardly.

[OrlandoGator]

49. "Does this go on every night? Gad!"

Forgive me for interpreting that as shock. Intent often gets lost in printed text.

[beam me up scottie]

56. I was PISSED, not shocked.

Big difference.
Language, you know.

[sepia_steel]

170. Enlightened people??

Give me a break. Anyone who thinks he/she is enlightened, is not. And you're lumping entire groups of people together who JUST MIGHT disagree with you - and I think I'm a fairly intelligent person.

[omega minimo]

50. OOOooooooOh. You only wanted GUYS to reply?

Y dint U say so?
:hi:

[OrlandoGator]

53. Heh, nice catch.

n/t

[OrlandoGator]

21. Please don't speak for me.

Personally, I don't find it to be a "sexist slur" to tell an adult male who is acting like a petulant child to "be a man." I started this thread to open a dialogue and see what other DUers thought.

Maybe it's a unique colloquialism where I live or something...but to me telling someone to "be a man" is not the same as "be a man as opposed to being a woman."

I can see where offense can be taken, and I concede that. But I was also clear that I tend to use this specific language with regard to Bush in order to poke holes in his macho "what a man should be" persona.

[beam me up scottie]

24. If you use it on him or his supporters, that's not my concern.

Knock yourself out if you think it will work.
When you use it in a progressive forum filled with liberals, expect to get shit for it from said liberals.

PC is what the freepers call not using sexist, racist and ethnic slurs.
Do you really want to use their bar to set your limits or would you prefer using ours?

[OrlandoGator]

29. When it comes to Bushbots, I'm about as subtle as a firecracker.

Yeah, I know I step over the boundaries. But when someone tries to justify to me that chickenhawks are great leaders and 1,800 kids died for a good cause in Iraq...I personally don't give a crap if I offend their delicate sensitivities.

[beam me up scottie]

33. You obviously don't care if you offend ours either.

Nice way to get back at the other guy.

[OrlandoGator]

40. You know, I started this thread for a reason.

The reason was to discuss the possible (nay, probable) offense people would take to a phrase I commonly apply to George W. Bush.

We've successfully established that it offends people. Okay. What more do you want me to do, repent?

[beam me up scottie]

41. It didn't sound like you were convinced.

Sorry if you are.

Now we just need to explain it to the rest of the posters...

[that girl again]

36. I don't think it's sexist...

Because you wouldn't have to tell a woman to take responsibility for the crap she'd gotten herself into :)

Seriously, when I hear people say "be a man," it makes me think of a teenage boy whose girlfriend had his baby and he wants to be hanging out with his friends, going to frat parties, while the girl is at home, shouldering adult responsibilities all by herself. Which is pretty analogous to the situation with GWB. So it's not a slur to women, it means don't make other people bear the burden of choices you regret.

But then I call myself a girl (wishfully, at this point), so maybe I don't get it, either.

[OrlandoGator]

57. There is an obvious difference in interpretation here.

Some (the minority, myself included) people think of "be a man as opposed to a boy" and others think "be a man as opposed to a woman."

I don't know if it is a localized colloquialism or what, but there are a few people here saying "what's the big deal" while others are acting as though saying "be a man" sets back the feminist movement by 50 years.

I find it interesting. Different ways to look at things.

[that girl again]

68. Maybe you should go with "suck it up"

That might be more uniformly offensive.

It is interesting, though. It irritates me no end when someone (almost always a guy) tells someone else (also a guy) to "quit being such a woman." Which does argue for the idea that I'm mentally continuing the statment "act like a man" with "and not like a little kid."

[beam me up scottie]

77. You've got it.

When you hear men use it frequently, IN YOUR PRESENCE, you get the idea.

[OrlandoGator]

79. "Quit being a woman" is a negative direct attack on women.

"Be a man" is not necessarily the literal equivalent to "don't be a woman."

[beam me up scottie]

When we're talking about adults, the inference IS don't be a woman.

Stop being obtuse.

[OrlandoGator]

87. I'm being obtuse? I'm just saying your interpretation is not absolute.

You're making the (very false) assumption that telling someone to "be a man" always, without exception, means "don't be a woman."

This is not the case. It's clearly not the case when it comes to me telling Bush to "be a man."

What are you getting at? By me saying "be a man, Bush" I'm actually saying, "quit being such a woman, and go to the gates and talk to that woman"?

In the context of what I'm saying, that doesn't make any sense. It's obtuse, even.

[beam me up scottie]

94. Yep, obviously, you never wanted us to answer your question.

You just wanted to start a flamewar because you got called out for using sexist language.

Talk about needing to learn how to act like a grown up...

[OrlandoGator]

97. I respect your opinion and your interpretation.

I disagree with it and eagerly seek a better explanation than what you've offered here thus far.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Really? Then go ask the the Feminist group. They'll be happy to oblige.

Or are you going to try the Lounge next?

[OrlandoGator]

100. Who's the one starting the flame war?

I asked a question. You're picking a fight.

[beam me up scottie]

112. You're not listening to all of the answers, just cherry picking the ones

you want to hear.

[OrlandoGator]

115. Funny, I seem to be responding to your answers quite a bit.

If there's one thing this thread has taught me, it's that the gender-neutral "grow up" really is quite a bit more useful than "be a man."

[beam me up scottie]

124. You're responding, NOT listening. You don't want to hear it's sexist.

And so you refuse to hear it.

You keep bringing up strawmen to show me why YOU don't think it's sexist.

I thought the question was do WE find it sexist?

And, apparently, unless it's unanimous, you don't think so.

It really doesn't matter if you think it is.

Many of us find it sexist and offensive.

Feel free to use it as often as you want.

Just don't pretend next time you get called on it that you "didn't know any better".

[OrlandoGator]

127. I've acknowledged several times (including in the OP)...

...that it could easily be interpreted as sexist. At no time here have I claimed that "be a man" is never offensive.

I'm not feigning ignorance about whether or not people find it offensive. I contend that it is a matter of context and that the context is very easily lost.

I'm trying really hard to be civil here and understand opposing viewpoints. I'm not sure why this is such a war to you.

[that girl again]

146. Not to jump in or anything

But having a vagina doesn't give you the right to state the "official feminist" version for the rest of us.

I'm a woman AND a feminist AND I did NOT interpret the statement as being particularly sexist. Maybe I didn't get the memo or something, but I saw his point that it was a be an adult vs. be a child kind of statement. I see your point as well. But he's not the one who's warped into this incredibly antagonistic, order-barking mode -- you have.

Feminism is about choice. If we all have to agree on everything, what difference does it make if we're stuck in the kitchen or sitting in the boardroom?

And, if you look around on this thread, people are having all kinds of discussions about this term and how it affects them and how they look at the opposite gender. So it's a good question. It's evoked genuine discussion. An attempt to start a flame war wouldn't have done that.

[beam me up scottie]

147. Right. Now perhaps you can SHOW me where I spoke for all women?

If you want to make shit up, fine.
Just don't accuse me of it.

Get used to strong opinions.
This is a political forum and it's not for the faint of heart.
Just in case you haven't been to FG.

Oh, and if you do go, using big-girl words like "vagina" may be shocking where you're from, but they don't even raise an eyebrow there.

;-)

[that girl again]

149. I don't need to make shit up

I just need to read, baby.

"When you hear men use it frequently, IN YOUR PRESENCE, you get the idea."

"You" who? It's obviously not YOU, or your would have used the pronoun "I". Perhaps "we" if you were feeling grandiose. The man who was posting? Women generally? Me? I don't get "the idea", assuming that the idea is "Be a man, quit being a woman." And obviously, the poster didn't either. So that leaves us with??

"When we're talking about adults, the inference is 'don't be a woman'. Stop being so obtuse."

We who? Again, assuming you're familiar with personal pronouns, it's not JUST you. And it's not ME. And it's not the POSTER. So you're talking about?

And no, neither "vagina" nor any of its variations are shocking to me. You're obviously pretty upset or you wouldn't feel the need to make a sniping personal attack like that. I apologize for not using "two X chromosomes" instead.

I think I'll skip the FP, thanks. I'm pretty used to developing my own opinions -- not having them handed down to me from on high. Like I said, it's about choice. I don't need my father or my husband or some women's studies prof or an online group telling me what to think and how to feel.

[beam me up scottie]

150. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=229x3125

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

178. What pointless pettiness

It is sexist and the OP did know it.

Not vicious, true. Not vicious, blunt. So be it.

It's apparent from the entire thread that his OP led in a big ambivalent circle game.........and a real waste of time. For him it all comes down to "some people hear 'grow up' and some hear 'don't be a woman'."

So-- the answer to his question is yes-- he already knew that it was considered so by women and cool men-- and he already knew that the answer doesn't really make him no nevermind. What's the point of asking?

The inference of "deliberate sexism," is your own-- and incorrect as well. If you asked me (you didn't, you projected your assumptions) this sort of sexism is more casual and thoughtless than "deliberate." If I thought it was "deliberate," I would not have bothered giving him an answer. (see below)

Identifying with a feminine point of view that is excluded by language that regards male as "normal" and female as "other" might help open-minded DUers comprehend-- or at least RESPECT-- this concept.

Some will never get it until they are in the position of being The Other.

Really, Lilith, I'd a thought the jumpy little frog would have indicated some levity in the post. Your "viciousness" is in the eye of the beholder and your insults are misplaced.

:hi:

Your post gives the impression that you are smart and literate enough to feel superior and try to accuse and humiliate me. I hope to see more of your positive comments elsewhere (not familiar with your posts).

[put out]

26. Well, I don't know from sexist (yes I do) but maybe

the "butch" term is a little rough. It's insulting to lots of people.

One could as easily say:

A woman doesn't hide in her house or at her work, nor cower in her car, when people ask her to be responsible for what she says and does, and then refuse to answer questions. A woman wouldn't send others' children into harm's way, while sheltering her own. A woman can explain why she does the things she does, and she can back her actions up with solid principle. A woman helps and protects all those who are weaker, poorer, younger, older, and those not able to otherwise care for themselves. A woman doesn't fake a thing about her real self. A woman admits her mistakes, and makes amends. A woman then strives to make those wrongs, right.

Maybe B*sh should be a woman about things.

[OrlandoGator]

31. Hey! There's something I could live with!

I'd like Bush to be a man OR woman for once in his pathetic life!

[put out]

55. I just want him to stand the

fuck up, grow up. It's no more than I would expect from any decent human with an ounce of spirit and a couple of brain cells to rub together.

And thanks. We are on the same page, us grown up people.;-)

[beam me up scottie]

32. Well said!

:applause:

[omega minimo]

104. Put Out! Who knew?

Thank you for the beautiful post.

[rwenos]

27. "Be a Man"

Your problem, mate, is that a remark that is perfectly reasonable in a male-only environment (locker room, fishing trip) is not going to fly on DU. I know EXACTLY what you mean, because all men test other men by our own yardstick -- i.e., "being a man" in full. I know that you know that "being a man" has many definitions, ranging from pulling up a 100-mph serve to save a third set, to summoning up the nerve to repair a carburetor, to facing one's own shortcomings, to taking a young daughter out to a silly tea party. All of these are the things of "being a man."

However, this is not a locker room, fishing trip or similar. There are many female contributors to this forum, and I would not want to chase any of them off this forum. Your sentiment is precisely-drawn, but we all have an obligation to adapt our language to our audience.

Understanding our audience and adapting our language appropriately is, in this context, "being a man."

[beam me up scottie]

39. Also well said!

This thread reminds me of the California governor and his "girly-man" comments.

[omega minimo]

67. Brilliant. Thank you so very much. What a man.

Now, where is the hidden forum where all you men "test other men by (y)our own yardstick"?

:popcorn:

[OrlandoGator]

70. I think it's called the "gungeon"...

...I keep hearing stuff about guns and penises.

[omega minimo]

113. "The Trigger Happy Place"

:hide:

[uppityperson]

30. Yes. He needs to act like a mature adult.

[OrlandoGator]

35. I'll play devil's advocate...what about telling him to "Be White"?

Yes, indeed...that's quite racist.

Like I said, I see the points being made here and that's why I presented it as an open question. My personal (and obviously unpopular) interpretation of "be a man" is "be a man as opposed to a boy"...whereas a lot of other people see it as "be a man as opposed to a woman."

Is it offensive? If I took a poll, I guess it would be. But as I said, I try whenever possible to poke holes in Bush's "manly man" persona and I think this is a good way to do it in a language even Freepers can understand.

You think Bush is a great example of what a "man" should be? Here's my opposing viewpoint.

Didn't mean to rile people...I love ya, DU. You know this, man.

And woman.

[beam me up scottie]

47. You rock!

You totally *got it*!

:yourock:

[OrlandoGator]

51. I AM THE MAN!

Couldn't resist.

[put out]

85. Well, I am a fan of men.

I am raising one, and I think he's turning to be one of the good guys. I am very happy. This world could use another one.

Thanks for this thread. Keep the faith.

I realize, the term "good guy" is very different from the term "good girl". See how it makes a difference, and I didn't realize it when I said it.

I am thinking too much. Goodnight.

[Guaranteed]

38. I think it's kind of sexist against men.

Not only is this a phrase used exclusively against men to deride them, if it's holding men up to a different standard than women, it seems to me that it's sexist against men.

[Dogmudgeon]

44. My mind still boggles

Rhetoric ought to be an art, not a series of rules and sanctions enforced by pecksniffs with too much rage and not enough opportunity for constructive activism.

For a long time, it was only the Right that thought words had the mojo to work bad magic on the minds of the innocent. They were the ones who were active in censorship, promoting paranoid ideas about brainwashing, public religion as a civic necessity, and the power of a single book to transform a devout Christian into a satanic, promiscuous, drug-abusing reprobate.

Recently, it seems to have become a universal belief in modern America, backed up with wacky theories like memes, neurolinguistic programming, linguistic determinism, and other scientificated black magic. "Pee Cee" is a small piece of this problem; it should be called by its real name, Linguistic Superstition.

Now, like the paleo-conservatives, we moderns fear the power of words and ideas, think that TV can brainwash people, and believe that a single episode of a batshit-crazy wingnut program can transform a progressive activist into a racist, sexist, fundamentalist, Wal-Mart shopping reprobate.

If calling on Bush to "be a Man" has rhetorical power, that's fine by me. If we really do live in a world where the mere utterance of a word can rend a person's mind clean from its ethical bone, then we're sunk anyway.

--p!

[beam me up scottie]

52. Thanks, Piggy

Glad to know that all slurs are harmless and not using them is just silly PC-ness and censorship.

Down here in the south, I work with people who use the N-word daily.

I guess that's because they don't "fear" words like us silly liberals.

And here I was getting all offended and telling them off for using it.
Silly me.

[OrlandoGator]

54. If you drove through any black ghetto you'd hear that word a lot, too.

Words only have the value we choose to attach to them.

[beam me up scottie]

60. So, black people shouldn't be offended by that harmless "word"?

Try asking them a few thousand years from now when it no longer has negative connotations and maybe they'll agree.

The same thing goes for sexist slurs.

As long as sexism is accepted and allowed, we'll reserve the right to be offended by it, if you don't mind.

[OrlandoGator]

61. You have all the right in the world to be offended.

I never suggested that other people should not be offended. In fact, I started this thread to hear some elaboration about why it is offensive and also offer my own viewpoint.

The N-word is all a matter of context. When white people use it to degrade black people, it offends me. When black people use it as an identifier, it doesn't bother me one bit.

[Guaranteed]

59. Here's an interesting question:

If I was to, hypothetically, tell a woman to "Be a woman" in trying to convince her to lose weight, would that be sexist against men because it gives the impression that men aren't supposed to be healthy and physically fit? That seems to be a diametrically opposing question in this case.

Or is it sexist against women because of the standard that it is holding them to?

It seems odd that someone is claiming sexism against women by a phrase that is used exclusively to deride the male persuasion using standards for males.

[beam me up scottie]

64. Read the thread.

Maybe a male person looks at it differently from a non male person?
You think?

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and not believe that your ignorance to the sexism is feigned.

And don't pull the reverse sexism crap.

Let's try treating men like property for a few thousand years and then you can let me know if you get offended by slurs and words that remind you of where you were a few years ago.

Until then, please can the poor oppressed white straight christian male schtick.

[Guaranteed]

71. If you're going to be fair, you need to compare the two phrasings.

Maybe it will help you define what sexism is. They're exactly the same types of concepts, but with opposite genders.

"Be a man." Tell the truth and take responsibility.

"Be a woman." Lose weight and look good.

Now, you're claiming sexism against women with both of those phrases, and against men with neither of them.

I have to say that that doesn't make sense.

Is it the standard that men or women are expected to adhere to that is offensive, or is it the implication that the other sex either can't or doesn't need to adhere to the standard?

Which of those concepts is what makes those phrasings sexist? It's almost certainly one concept or the other (and in either case both phrases are sexist), and if it's both concepts, then they're both sexist against both men and women.

This is important if you want to actually define and understand what you're claiming. I'm not saying either one defines the requirement. But if you're going to use the term, you should be familiar with why you're saying what you're saying.

[that girl again]

74. "looking good" vs. being responsible?

I think your argument would work way better if you would take two OTHER offensive assumptions out of it:

1. In order to look good, one must lose weight and

2. Looking good is the normative equivalent to taking responsibility and being honest.

Just a thought.

[Guaranteed]

83. I'm not making any equivalency as far as the specific standards applied.

I AM looking for some reasoning behind the claims of sexism being made here.

The question being posed to the woman was the hypothetical standard typically claimed to be sexist. I'm not making that claim. I'm using it as an analogy to compare to the question being asked in the OP. And it's a fair comparison.

So, again, which is it? Is it the standard, or is it the implication concerning the opposite gender?

Should I be offended that I'm expected to be unattractive and unhealthy?

[Guaranteed]

101. I take it you're not interested in hashing this one out.

Alright.

But don't blame me if you can't explain yourself next time.

[OrlandoGator]

103. Apparently the Feminism Forum is the only place it can be hashed out.

Because feminists are the only ones qualified to judge something as offensive, I suppose.

[beam me up scottie]

118. Gee, is discussing sexism with Ah-nulds "hashing this one out"?

I don't think so.

If you're too scared to ask the women of DU, I can't help you.

[OrlandoGator]

121. I'm asking everyone from DU.

Why do I have to direct this question at a narrow subset? I'm including everyone.

[Guaranteed]

123. Now you're just resorting to characterizations.

I'm asking you for reasoning. I'm trying to discuss in detail what makes certain phrasings sexist. But you're refusing.

I'll try once more: It is the *standard* that genders are held to...or....is it the implication to the opposite gender...that is/are sexist?

Can you answer that without making personal attacks?

[that girl again]

72. I think pretty much anything

said to convince anyone else to lose weight is going to be generally offensive. So it doesn't work as an analogy.

[Guaranteed]

75. Telling someone that they don't have integrity is pretty offensive, too,

though. Some would say that that is worse than telling someone that they shouldn't be overweight.

The analogy works quite well. They're both judgments using gender-based standards.

If one is offensive to one gender, the other should be offensive to the other. One can't claim that women should be offended by both while men shouldn't be offended by either. That doesn't make sense.

[Dogmudgeon]

80. Do you use words, or do words use you?

Obviously, calling names is a destructive activity, and bigots even leak poison when they're trying to present a congenial face to the world.

But that's not at issue here. Many people take offense to the use of a phrase that does not necessarily carry sexist bagage. In fact, this use of the word "man" was originally genderless, just as it is today in most other Western Germanic languages. For instance, the Yiddish word mensch translates to "man", but in the context of social conduct, can be used to describe women as well as men. There is no ambiguity when someone says "be a mensch!"

No one can escape their society, their language, or their training. Fossilized remains of sexism, racism, and other perverse privileges litter the vocabulary of every language. But what gives language its power is its users. The voice of truth doesn't speak with carefully parsed words, but with the power of honesty and integrity.

This is easy to see in lawyerly language. It's very easy for the language of the law to be obfuscatory, dead, and devoid of humanity. But the great judges and advocates have used the same legal dialect to cut through the veil of legalism and to free the justice that had been concealed.

It is the same with challenging privilege. Until one believes in real moral equality of the sexes, no linguistic maneuver will work well enough -- all allusion to femininity will imply inferiority. But for someone to whom the sexes are equal in truth, there is no such thing as "wrong words". It is only the belief that women are lesser beings than men that is wrong.

Such offense can only be received by someone who still regards gender privilege (in this case) as the norm, even though they reject it.

--p!

[funflower]

65. How about these: "Be an adult." OR "Act like a grown-up."

I think that gets to the heart of what you're trying to say without implying that he is somehow being like a woman.

[eeyore]

66. It was meant as an insult to masculinity where I grew up.

Growing up as boy/manchild in Colorado, it was interchangeable with "Stop being such a pussy/fag/woman". In other words, "Don't be such an anti-man."

I get your point about the man vs. boy way of looking at it, but that's never what it meant where I grew up. I don't use it, because to me it is inherently a dig on ones masculinity - never a tactic I chose to take.

Just my two cents.

-eeyore

[beam me up scottie]

73. That's exactly how I've heard it used my whole life.

There is no reason to use any slur.

Ever.

Unless one WANTS to offend.

[OrlandoGator]

76. The whole point is that not everyone interprets it as a slur.

Should we do a survey and make sure we strike from the English language all phrases that someone, somewhere finds offensive?

I mean, honestly. You've called "be a man" a "slur" about ten times in this thread. It's only a slur when presented in a context that marginalizes women...which is not always the case.

[beam me up scottie]

82. For real?Then I DARE you to go ask the women in the Feminist group.

Unless you think that the few men on here who are pretending it's not a slur count as "everyone".

Bring them with you. I'm going to sell tickets to this one.

[OrlandoGator]

84. Why is context completely and utterly lost on you?

The "N-word" is a slur when used in a certain context. In another context, it is not.

There is nuance like this scattered all throughout the English language. Look into it, it's fascinating.

[beam me up scottie]

89. So you're not going to ask DU women if it's a sexist slur?

I didn't think you would.

Little different from being out here with your buddies to back up your bullshit, isn't it?

How about going into the African-American group to ask them how they feel about the n-word?

Write this down:

The context is you are on a progressive liberal internet forum and using sexist, racist and ethnic slurs is not acceptable behaviour, no matter how many white straight men think so.

You can certainly use it, but knock it off with the innocent act when people get offended by hearing freeper language in here.

Thinking that we're going to buy your act is even more insulting than using the offensive phrase.

[OrlandoGator]

92. I already AM asking DU what they think of it.

Why do I need to keep narrowing my audience until I find a subset that will undoubtedly share your personal interpretation?

Everyone else here is having a lively discussion I started. You're turning this into some kind of war for female liberation. Knock it off.

BTW, don't ever even remotely correlate me with Freepers again. Period.

[sepia_steel]

173. WOW, Beam me

you need to CALM DOWN.

It's just my opinion. Don't read anything sexist into it, ya hear?

[eeyore]

86. It's always going to make me uncomfortable

In my world it is inherently marginalizing to pussies, fags, women, and ultimately the "boy" whose ball size is being called into question.

I don't use it, and I generally think a bit less of a man who does.

And don't tell me to "Man up and deal with it!" ;)

-eeyore

[beam me up scottie]

91. Touche!

Sorry, didn't mean to use a FRENCH word. :evilgrin:

[Guaranteed]

95. I'd say it's most marginalizing to the man against whom

the phrase is being used.

Hence, I'm kind of amused that it seems to be women that want to take offense to it.

[eeyore]

102. It's insulting a man by likening him to a woman/feminine being.

What's not to get? You get offended when someone uses "liberal" as an insult, right?

Why wouldn't a woman be offended when her entire being is used derrogatorily?

[OrlandoGator]

105. Yeah, but "liberal" isn't always used as an insult, is it?

I'm still a bit unsure about how "be a man" derides women. It certainly doesn't do it in a direct way, if at all. Depends on context.

Much like "filthy stinking liberal" is contextually much different than "espousing liberal ideals."

[beam me up scottie]

110. Context= here vs. freeperville

Pick which one you are using right now.

Liberals find sexist language offensive.
Get over it.

Liberals are telling you that this is an offensive, sexist slur and you refuse to take their word for it because some other bubbas disagree,
who has trouble with context?

[Guaranteed]

111. Give your reasoning. I've given you ample opportunity. nt

[OrlandoGator]

114. Knock off the Freeper accusations.

We're having a discussion here. The great thing about being a progressive is that you can have a disagreement and discuss it openly and try to reach a resolution.

Contrary to Freepers, who all think with one rotten collective consciousness.

We aren't Freepers. Knock off the backhanded "Freeper language" commentary.

[beam me up scottie]

136. Then stop using their reasoning and words.

You refuse to listen to people who answered your question, instead demanding that we convince you.

I don't need to convince anybody.

It's sexist, it's offensive and I'm not alone in thinking that.

Again, do what you want, that was obviously your intention from the beginning.

See, I thought that once you heard that it was offensive and sexist from some of us, that would be enough.

But apparently it needs to be sexist and offensive to YOU for it to matter.

Got it.

[Guaranteed]

138. "Their" reasoning? Try just "reasoning."

Sorry, I don't think it's too much to ask for someone to justify their accusations, especially when that person has gone so far as you have in this thread.

Yes, it's simple reasoning to ask whether you think it's offensive to men when women are compared to men in a derogatory manner. Very, very simple.

If you can't answer that, it's a just-as-simple double-standard.

You could have used this thread as an opportunity to come to a greater understanding of your beliefs, but you instead chose to get defensive and attack people.

You need to have a solid conception of what you're saying. Otherwise you're doing all of us a disservice.

THAT is a standard to which I hold ALL Democratic men and women.

[beam me up scottie]

140. Who are you?

And what was... all that?

[Guaranteed]

142. Didn't you go to bed?

Or did you think better about explaining yourself?

[eeyore]

126. Okay, here's my perspective as a "man"

If someone tells me to be a man, they are saying that not being masculine enough for their taste. I am being feminine (a fag, a pussy, or a woman).

Calling a man a fag is calling him womanly - no "real man" would do it with another man. Calling a man a pussy is equating him with a woman. Calling a man a woman is saying he is weak and feminine.

So, by telling a man to "be a man" you are saying that he's someone's bitch, and a lesser being because he's acting like a woman.

I understand the whole point about being an adult, but if that's what you mean just say it. I just don't think you get anywhere calling the "president" a pussy, fag or woman.

I think the reason it appeals to you is that you know it would hurt him to have his masculinity called into question. There are a lot of men who would respect him less if they thought he was less of a manly man. I'd rather appeal to their common sense than their internalized homophobia and/or mysoginist tendencies.

I get your point but as a man I disagree.

-eeyore

[Guaranteed]

128. So, does the same hold true for the opposite insults?

Is telling a woman that she looks like a man offensive to the woman, or to men in general?

What is it that makes this shit sexist?

Why do you think it is that woman should be making claim to offense on both sides of these insults, while men should make claim to neither?

Or do you believe that men shouldn't be making those claims?

[eeyore]

134. I actually made that mistake once.

I told a woman that she looked like a guy I know. They both got pissed off at me. She didn't want to be thought of as masculine, he didn't want to likened to a woman.

I don't think it's offensive to men in general somehow. Things are changing, but still men have more power than women. So men don't get pissed when a woman is seen as masculine. Societally we view masculinity as power and femininity as weakness, and no one wants to be called weak.

A woman who is called mannish is generally meant to be taking on the more powerful physicality or communication style of a man. A man who is called feminine is seen as worthless and weak.

I'm not saying it's right, but you can't deny that's the way it is.

[Guaranteed]

137. I think both sides take offense.

Women don't like being called masculine, and men don't like being called feminine.

Men don't get pissed when a woman is said to be masculine, at all. However, the woman does get angry, typically, if she is told that.

Similarly, a man gets angry if he is told that he is feminine. I'm not sure why a woman should take to offense that, though, if men don't get angry when a woman is told that she is masculine- as if it's an insult.

[eeyore]

141. Okay, I think I can spell this out.

But if you want to be President when you grow up you're going to have to listen better. }(

If I say to you don't be such a woman, how is it any different than saying don't be such a fag or nigger? It's meant to compare you to a woman in a negative way. A woman has every right to be offended by that, and if you don't get that you have no business running for office. Seriously. If you don't get it, then you just don't want to get it and are being stubbornly contrary.

-eeyore

[Guaranteed]

145. No. That is not what I am saying.

What *I* am asking is why is it, then, that when *women* are *similarly* told to *stop acting like men* (you seeing the comparison, here? It's exactly the same thing! :) ) it's not the MEN who come around saying that they're offended?!

To use your comparison, "How is that different than saying 'Stop being such a fag/nigger?'"

Instead, it seems to me that it's the man who is offended when he is called a woman, and the woman who is offended when she's called a man. Or, even, when it is insinuated to either gender that they're not fulfilling the role that they are expected to fill, absent any comparison to the opposite gender.

I'm listening pretty damned good. What I'm not seeing are any responses to my questions, here. No one seems to want to clear this up.

Yeah, it's not easy. But it's a prerequisite to having strong beliefs that we address these things.

[that girl again]

148. Here's a response

from my life. I work in a male-dominated, competitive field and I'm good at it. When I make men at work angry, NO man tells me to "quit being such a man." They say I'm a bitch or a lesbian or tell me to go home and take care of my kids. Or they hatefully hit on me. They essentially tell me to act more like their stereotypical picture of a woman.

BUT when they're pleased with me or want to exhibit respect for me, they don't tell me I'm cute or pretty or thin or a good mom. They tell me I have balls. To them, that means I'm brave and tough and competent. It doesn't offend me, particularly.

When they're criticising each other, they accuse each other of being women or little girls.

So as near as I can figure it, to these men, being male is good. Being female is for people who can't cut it as men.

(Obviously, there are exceptions and way more enlightened men out there, but I'm often surrounded by dinosaurs at work.)

For women, it's different. I don't think all that many women want men to be just like us. I know many women wish men valued and exhibited traditionally feminine qualities like cooperation and nurturing more often. Again, the belief that everything good is male gets pretty grating after awhile. But ultimately, I believe that my view of gender is more nuanced than, say, the guys I work with. Men who I see as more enlightened (like my partner) tend to have similar appreciation for both genders.

Do women insult each other by calling each other masculine or "unnatural" women? Not as much. I think there's a tacit recognition, especially among younger women, that "masculine" qualities of competition and aggression may be necessary to get what we need in life. There's a sense of historical perspective that being too passive ends us up with bound feet and corsets.

However, as I mentioned before, this is my experience, not anyone else's. I don't have the authority to speak for the cabal.

[beam me up scottie]

139. Excellent points.

Hopefully we won't continue to allow society to dictate gender norms.

But until people are willing to accept that there is a problem, nothing can ever change.

People should get to define themselves.

We can't do that when others are constanly trying to fit us into boxes.

While still others pretend that there's no inequality...

[OrlandoGator]

159. Are you saying that you desire a world with no gender norms?

I just don't see the basis for that in reality. Men and women are very different.

[Guaranteed]

107. No, it's telling him he's not what he is *supposed* to be.

He's not living up to the standard that is expected of men.

[beam me up scottie]

106. It's more offensive to the man who is being compared to a woman?

So we shouldn't be offended?

:rofl:

Did you even read his post?

[Guaranteed]

108. The word "woman" isn't even used in the phrase.

When women are being told they have to be skinny, are they being compared to men?

It's a positive (and by that I mean "affirmative") standard that is being adjudged as not having been met.

In any case, if a woman is told that she looks like a man, is that then sexist against men?

You're going to keep running into this until you define your reasoning.

[OrlandoGator]

109. Who is drawing comparisons to a woman?

I and other posters have already made clear that there are different ways to interpret the phrase "be a man."

I completely agree that within the context of "be a man, don't be a woman"...that is sexist and offensive. Within the context of "grow up, be a man, don't act a petulant child" I do not feel that it is offensive.

Nowhere have I implied that Bush's actions are those of a woman and that he should alternatively "be a man."

[Guaranteed]

117. And, yes, you're goddamned right it's offensive to the man who

the phrase is being used against. Who the hell else would it be more offensive to than the one who is being derided?

Funny that you're trying to claim the offense yourself.

[OrlandoGator]

119. Uh, yeah. Guilty as charged. I am trying to offend George W. Bush.

I'm glad I was able to get that out into the open.

[Guaranteed]

120. I wasn't responding to you. nt

[OrlandoGator]

122. I know, but people are losing sight of my point.

I was insulting Bush, not half of the Earth's population.

[OrlandoGator]

69. Heart of the matter: What is the opposite of "man"?

Is it "boy" or is it "woman"? I think that's the crux of the debate as I see it.

By telling someone to "be a man" are you subconsciously telling them "don't be a boy" or "don't be a woman"?

[omega minimo]

93. Maybe it's simpler even

That may be A debate; one that we could have. In your gracious reply #58 above you state some valuable opinions on all this.

You have provided an opportunity to put this in a way that may make sense to the unconvinced; and some good clues already to the answer to your question.

I can see why you would want to use the cliche-- you've described your reasons fully.

The women you mention in your OP may not know you or your reasons. They see the cliche. It telegraphs an attitude. Equating "being a man" with being All Things Good or "having balls" with All Valuable Attributes is exclusionary to those humans who will never "be a man" or actually "have balls."

That's a fact. It is exclusionary language. All the parsing and pontificating after the fact about how women who object are PC or supersensitive or insecure or blah de blah de blah and all the REASONS it was used and WHAT WAS REALLY MEANT and all the elaboration...

All the justification is not conveyed in the cliche. It's in the mind of the user. The user may not like being called on it. And may be offended that someone would infer from some crudity that they are crude; or from exclusionary language that they are exclusionary. You were honest enough to ask about it here.

You already said it:

"Intent often gets lost in printed text."

But rwenos said it best (above)

Thanks for asking.

:hi:

btw: the reason this is still worth trying to address, the reason it still matters is that the extreme psychotic, homocidal and hypocritical version of "being a man" a la Bushco. and the attack on the planet, its resources and all its people, IS the heart of the matter.

The macrocosm reflected in the microcosm.

[OrlandoGator]

98. Indeed, the further heart of the matter is: "Is Bush a real man?"

Which is not a discussion we chose to start...his handlers started it by choosing to portray him as the ultimate alpha male.

[omega minimo]

125. You didn't hear me

[OrlandoGator]

129. I was trying to expand on your last two paragraphs, perhaps poorly.

n/t

[beam me up scottie]

131. He was never listening.

I believe he thought he was somewhere else and didn't expect dissent.

The pig pile, on the other hand, was expected.

Good luck, I'm out of here.

I work and live around sexist, racist peeps, I don't need to be reminded of why they feel their actions and words are justified.

I hear it all day.

[OrlandoGator]

132. Wow, that was a really awful thing to say.

I'm sorry you feel that way about me. I guess it was silly of me to view this thread as an open-ended discussion of a matter I felt that there were differing opinions on (which it is and there are).

I guess if people don't share all of your personal beliefs and opinions, they must be a Freeper in disguise. There's a supreme irony there, but I don't think you'll catch it on your own.

[omega minimo]

143. Yeah! Your one-liners speak for themselves

:cry: ah, the irony :cry:


Ya know, ya really had me goin there-- and I actually tried to answer your question! :rofl:

Good one.

[omega minimo]

133. That REALLY hurt

:banghead: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl:

[Borgnine]

78. Why must we always go off on these tangents?

We're arguing about the phrasing of a single word. This is SILLY people. No DUer here is the enemy of female equality. Sometimes we look too hard for things to get irate about when it shouldn't even be that difficult. Pick up a newspaper. Turn on the television. Head into LBN. If you want to be outraged so much, then you'll be in for a pleasant surprise.

Why do we always eat each other? We must taste like candy.

[OrlandoGator]

81. Actually, I'm filled with rich, buttery nougat.

I think most of us here are on the same wavelength.

[Dogmudgeon]

88. It's the "I'm Right -- You're Wrong!" game

Taking offense is a lot more fun that simply promoting your point of view. It allows the offended person to attack the adjudged offender without moral accountability.

It happens in any group. It's fine when people around here take offense at George Bush -- after all, his offenses are real and he's taken pride in many of them. But word-parsing offense rituals happen around here pretty regularly.

Remember the biblical story of the word "shibboleth"? The way the word was pronounced marked the speaker as a friend or an enemy. If the word was spoken as "sibboleth", there was big trouble in the Land of Israel.

Pee Cee was inevitable. Unfortunately, it's just another corrosive habit we've picked up from the Right.

--p!

[Guaranteed]

90. Word usage is a very easy thing to attack and

attempt to assert dominance over.

I think it's a control issue.

Great post.

[OrlandoGator]

96. The only difference is, I never claimed that I'm right.

I have no problem leaving something open-ended and sharing a thoughtful discussion about it. A few people in this thread have chosen to go the route of, "You're wrong, you're so goddamn wrong and women everywhere are being held back by your use of those three words!"

I mean, chill out. I started this thread for a reason...because not everyone sees the words the same way.

[beam me up scottie]

144. Yes, how dare we be offended by sexist language?

Especially after hearing it excused ad nauseum in this thread.
No, we have to "explain" why we're offended.
And we have to "understand" that some men aren't offended by sexist language.



Uppity women!

[Dogmudgeon]

161. One person's colorful expression is another person's slur

This is a pretty strong statement of one's moral principles:

There is no reason to use any slur.

Ever.

Unless one WANTS to offend.

And yet, you use the expression "woo woo" quite frequently.

(For those not in on the slang, woo woo is Skeptic slang, a derogatory term for a non-Skeptic. Many examples of the use of this expression may be found on the Skeptic forum and the Meeting Room forum.)

Does that mean you want to offend "woo woos"? Categorically? Indiscriminately?

Because they don't deserve any respect at all?

Isn't disrespect by categorization a form of bigotry in itself?

It sure doesn't seem to be liberalism or progressivism. Mainly, it's just silly.


--p!

[Dogmudgeon]

151. Don't blame the temperature on me

Every post I've made in this thread has been part of that thoughtful discussion you want. And every post I've made in this thread has attracted angry replies and accusations about "slurs", as if every use of any forbidden word is made with deliberation and malice.

The same thing happened during the "bitch" wars some time ago. The phrases "bitch slap" and "prison bitch" were being used with such glee that a number of people took offense, and the anger levels on each side escalated quickly.

If you took the post personally, well, I don't know what to say. I thought it was SOP to reply to the root posting when introducing a new sub-topic, especially to address arguments that have been made in several other sub-topics. But if you did take it personally, we'll have to split that chill pill.

--p!

[OrlandoGator]

158. Sorry, I wasn't directing the "chill out" at you.

I was just kinda saying it to everyone.

[Dogmudgeon]

160. Looks like I made the same mistake!

I'm probably getting punchy, myself, from all the flaming.

My apologies -- to you. But as far as I'm concerned, the rest of them are still knuckleheads. :)

--p!

[Raven Remarks]

116. Know before you read this that I'm female.

I'm sure this will get some fired up, but... waaa! My personal experiences with sexism are that MEN these days are tormented by women! Cat calls, pushing breasts onto them in stores to the point of causing BRUISING... on the man, demanding the arrival of a male do the job that both sexes were hired as equals to perform, crying like a baby when they're busted for "chewing the fat", taking advantage of the rights our fore-mothers fought for! "Lib" once stood for liberation, not a portion of female anatomy. Not every man is a pig and wants to see the new boobs you wasted money on, and probably should have put into a college fund for the kids.
Ok, a WOMAN today wouldn't hide in her castle, or send her children off to war to die, but plenty of women fake as many things as they can. Your words could have been chosen better, perhaps, but I believe your point was that being a "man" is a symbolic statement for strength of character. A "man" will rarely cry about doing a job he himself applied to do. With that in mind, I'd say your remarks about Mr.Scratchy-face were well placed.
Just as all men are not pigs, not all women are sexists, true. Most men may think they'd like to be assaulted by double D's on a daily basis, but it bruises the nerves as well as the skin. We've created an environment where a man cannot speak up in defense of himself with the same rights as a woman! All hell would break loose if a man spoke in detail of a sexual act on a radio program or network television ad! But all hail the "V" monologues and feminine hygiene ads! I don't want to experience either. Okay, maybe Bush isn't being a "man", but no matter what a leaders gender they are expected to act as an adult, in a respectful manner, to the people who hired them to do the job.
Was THAT sexist?

[Hubert Flottz]

152. No... since Bush claims to be a man!

Even though he was and is a cheerleader.

[Bridget Burke]

154. Exactly!

He's always dressing up as a Fighter Pilot (when he ducked out of his already cushy situation) or a Cowboy (when he is afraid of horses). Machismo can be a problem but fake machismo is just silly.

His mother's twice the man he will ever be. Not that she's a GOOD man.

[Hubert Flottz]

155. LMAO!

Is it ugly, to say she's UGLY? No, it's just telling the truth. People in America are so unaccustomed to hearing the truth nowadays that they fail to understand it! I'd sooner be correct than PC any day!

[OrlandoGator]

156. Okay...now calling Barbara a man offends me.

Now we're getting somewhere.

[Hubert Flottz]

175. Some people call George a PRICK...

but I would argue that, that is not the case, because a prick is a part of a man and George hasn't earned that distinction, due to his still unexplained, unfinished term in the TANG!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

153. I don't consider it sexist.

Of course, it takes a lot to offend me.

[Fescue4u]

157. You should say ""He should be of sufficent age of Majority" about things

:)

Of course it sexist. Anything that refers to the sex is sexist by simple defintion.

The question is whether its offensive.

No. Saying "be a man" to man is hardly offensive except to someone looking for an excuse to be offended.

[K-W]

163. Yes. EOM

[Stephanie]

164. Be a Man = Be an ADULT

not sexist IMO

[sepia_steel]

165. i don't think it's wrong.

Bush wants us to believe he's a man's man, what with the hat-wearing and brush-clearing, I say he should act like one, on vacation or not. Instead he's being a cowardly mouse.

I DO NOT FIND THAT SEXIST.

[Cleita]

167. Perhaps you should rephrase it as Bush should show that

he isn't a coward and meet with her. Coward isn't a sexist word.

[Stuckinthebush]

168. Here's one man's take on it

Extremely sexist. That does not mean that the speaker is at all sexist, it simply means that she/he has not engaged in a critical analysis of her/his discourse.

When we critically analyze and disassemble the words that we speak, it is easy to see the misogynistic nature of much of what we say. A lot of this speech is Pavlovian stimulus/response stuff. It has been ingrained into our being from birth, so it is hard to see when we do it.

Let's review:

Someone is hesitant to do something or seems frightened about something.

RESPONSE: Be a man!
MEANING: Don't act scared, stand up to your fears!
DEEPER MEANING: Women and children cower in fear, men do not.

Someone is being wishy-washy. This person refuses to criticize something that is obviously wrong in an attempt to not offend another person

RESPONSE: Grow some balls!
MEANING: Men have balls, women and girls do not. A man should be unafraid to offend anyone.
DEEPER MEANING: Women are weak and will capitulate, men will not..or should never be seen as weak by capitulating.

Someone is nervous, frightened, scared, or apprehensive about a certain situation.

RESPONSE: What a pussy!
MEANING: A pussy is slang for vagina which only women and girls have. Men would never act apprehensive, if they do, then they must not have a penis.
DEEPER MEANING: You must be lacking in your manhood and, therefore, have a hole where a penis should be. This means you are lacking in the most basic part of being a "man". You have no penis. You are a woman and that is bad.

We could go on and on with misogynistic comments. I do want to repeat that just because a misogynistic comment comes out of someone's mouth, it doesn't mean that person is a misogynist. But, it is our duty to highlight this type of offensive speech and help our progressive brothers and sisters to critically analyze it. The defense of being too politically correct doesn't wash. It is a reaction to being labeled a non-critical thinker. Be careful and explain to these brothers and sisters that you are not calling them a non-critical thinker, just being a good friend and that you want them to point out when you make similar uncritical comments. We all do it. We all need to think about it as well.

Don't get me started on homophobic speech!

[Orsino]

169. Yep. "Be a grown-up" fits better.

There's been entirely too much "mannishness" from this Administration.

Oops. There I go.

[pinto]

171. May be more pertinent that he be accountable-it's in the job description.

Regardless of sex.

[Dora]

172. I'm usually pretty quick to take offense, and I see no wrong here.

The comparison is NOT "be a man, not a woman," but rather, "be a man, not a boy." The criticism is touching on maturity, not gender.

It's crystal clear to me.

Now, if people were saying that Bush shouldn't be such a pussy, then that would be sexist and wrong.

[July]

174. My 2 cents, since you asked.

I don't think it's sexist, particularly if the expression means to you something like "grow up." That's my understanding of the phrase, too.

However, it's clear that it means something else to some people, so it is natural that they would therefore take offense.

Because it is considered sexist by some people (which you now know from reading this thread in response to your question), you risk offending some listeners if you use it. That's something you may want to keep in mind.

The issue is complicated by the fact that there is not a comparable expression one would use with a woman in order to say "grow up." You might say "grow up" or "be an adult," but those expressions would be sex-neutral. The lack of a comparable expression doesn't make "be a man" sexist to me, though, if you are talking TO a man about acting like an adult male as opposed to like a boy. Unfortunately, people who have a different understanding of the expression won't know how YOU understand it, and may take offense when none is intended or, in your (and my) view not expressed.

FWIW, I'm a feminist and a woman.

[OrlandoGator]

177. Some think "grow up" and others think "don't be a woman."

My context was the former, but I can see how it can be taken both ways.

[Technowitch]

179. Locking

The flammability of this thread has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

Technowitch
DU Moderator