The religionist sickness is spreading, even in Massachusetts

[Zenlitened]

From pastor to political activist
His church booming, he wants to spread the word statewide

By Maria Cramer, Globe Staff | August 24, 2005

(snip)

But (Pastor Roberto) Miranda is not satisfied. He has written a master plan to ''reclaim the state of Massachusetts for Jesus Christ" and penetrate a culture he feels is being lost to promiscuity, activist judges, and the legalization of same-sex marriage. He is organizing Protestant ministers and Christian activists around the state and encouraging them to bring modern marketing techniques to the church.

The 17-page treatise appeals to evangelical leaders to work together to ''proceed systematically to penetrate and reconquer" institutions of culture, business, and politics in a state that he said has become ''saturated with a godless, secular outlook."

(snip)

''I called together these key leaders to talk about how could we put together an initiative to sell our product better, to be more relevant, and to communicate the message of the gospel in ways that would be a lot more digestible to the general public," Miranda said during in an interview in his spacious office overlooking Northampton Street.

He wrote the plan more than a year ago in the aftermath of the legalization of same-sex marriage. The vitriol he said he witnessed between both sides inspired him to draw up the plan, which calls on Christian leaders to unify and strengthen the church, recruit high school and college students, and imbue them with a ''clear, militant Christian worldview," and increase the influence of Christianity in the arts, media, and politics.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/08/24/from_pastor_to_political_activist/?page=full

Am I a "militant atheist"? Fuck yes, I am.

[Modem Butterfly]

1. Am I a "militant atheist"? Fuck yes, I am.

YOU ROCK!

[Hugin]

2. "militant atheist"...

Well, you gotta believe in something!

At least he didn't use an oxymoron like...
"Militant Pacifist".

Yikes!

[Hugin]

3. Oh, wait!

He did!

"militant Christian"

I found an oxymoron! What did I win?

[Modem Butterfly]

How is militant Xian an oxymoron?

[Hugin]

5. Well, in some sectors... It's reality.

I wasn't aware J.C. advocated or practiced militantism.

So, it's an oxymoron due to the fact militantism is being
paired with the rumored teachings of a non-militant leader.

[Ian David]

10. "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"- Christ, Jesus H.; 33 AD

But to bring a sword
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_to_bring_a_sword

"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" is one of several controversial statements reported of Jesus in the Bible. The saying has been understood in several ways, by Christians and non-Christians, to support several mutually-incompatible conclusions. Its main significance in that context is that it is often offered as evidence that Jesus advocated violence—a view that is repugnant to many Christians.

The "full" quote, according to the NASB translation of the Bible, reads (Jesus speaking):

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matthew 10:34-36, NASB)

Another, similar, quote reads (Jesus speaking):

"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three..." (Luke 12:51-52 NASB)

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_to_bring_a_sword

[Hugin]

16. Well... Obviously we could get into a days long flame war about this.

However, I choose to see most religious leaders as peace loving.

Excluding of course... Radical Cleric Robertson and friends.

Sorry, I said anything.

[Ian David]

17. Religion went downhill the first time someone said...

"There is a reward in the afterlife, but you can't have it UNLESS..."

The only true and worthwhile religion is Pastafarianism.

I have been Touched By His Noodly Appendage.

Flying Spaghetti Monsterism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[hfojvt]

22. militant is not militaristic

It means "combative, aggressively active, especially in support of a (usually political) cause" and combative means "ready or eager to fight"

So that sounds like DU, being active and forceful, ready to challenge the powerful and ready to answer their attacks. That is a tradition that goes back at least to Moses, challenging the Pharoah, Elijah challenging Jezebel, Nathan challenging Saul and David (or was that Samuel for Saul), John the Baptist challenging Herod, Paul and the apostles spreading the Gospel. And so on. I just opened my Bible to Jeremiah, and found in 38:4 that apparently Jeremiah was not "supporting the troops"

"Then the officials said to the king, 'This man (Jeremiah) should be put to death. He is discouraging the soldiers who are left in this city, as well as all the people, by the things he is saying to them. This man is not seeking the good of these people but their ruin.'"

[Hugin]

25. Your dictionary and mine seem to be at odds on that...

\Mil"i*tant\, a. militare to be soldier: cf. F. militant. See {Militate}.]
Engaged in warfare; fighting; combating; serving as a
soldier. -- {Mil"i*tant*ly}, adv.

At which command the powers militant . . . Moved on in
silence. --Milton.

It's also synonymous with: Unpeaceful.

*********************

What you say about Jeremiah is interesting.

You might find this a worthwhile reference:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

[hfojvt]

30. I show those as 2nd definitions

the first being "vigorously active" Random House 1966 uses "a militant group of reformers" as an example.

[Zenlitened]

21. "He" who?

:shrug:

[Hugin]

23. "(Pastor Roberto) Miranda"

The article refers to this person as a "he".

[Zenlitened]

24. Ah, I see.

I was confused, because his use of the phrase "militant christian" was one of the first things in the article that popped out at me.

:hi:

[Hugin]

26. If you must be a "militant atheist" to counter "militant christianity"...

You must!

Sad how things have come to this.

If Christianity is such a wonderful idea... Then how
come they have to resort to militant tactics to convince
others?

[Zenlitened]

29. "How come they have to resort to militant tactics?" An excellent question.

My position is this: I didn't become their enemy until they declared me so.

But then if it's fight them or watch my values perish, then fight them I will.

[ooglymoogly]

4. an extremist mullah coming to a church near you...nt

[Zenlitened]

19. Imagine... substitute the words "muslim" and "islamic" in this article.

:scared:

Scary shit, no matter what "flavor" of fundamentalist is doing the raving.

[Armstead]

6. Massachusetts is too cranky

This state is too grouch and independent minded to succumb to the blandshments of the Religious Right.

[Ian David]

11. "It can't happen here," is the same thing they said in Germany. n/t

[charlie]

12. Hell, we said it HERE

30 years ago, these guys were regarded as comical loons. Nobody's laughing anymore.

[midnight armadillo]

13. I would disagree

Not on the general crankiness part (which I suspect is weather-induced ;-)) but on the potential success of the message. There are plenty of churches in MA, there's a tradition of religious fervor tracing back to Salem, the Puritans, the founding of Christian Science, and there's a big evangelical community amongst recent immigrants in particular. The Great Awakening also had its roots in Boston and Northhampton under Jonathan Edwards, author of 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God'.

The MA religious landscape has been heavily roiled due to the chaos & idiocy of the Catholic Church in the wake of the sex abuse scandal, and I suspect there's a decent amount of disgruntled Catholics who would be open to a new 'militant Christian' message.

[Armstead]

18. People are religious but libertarian about it

Massachusetts (New England) does have a strong tradition of ingrained religion.

But that's one of the reasons I think it will be harder for nutjob fundamentalism to take serious hold.

Over the centuries we've had to work out religious differences already. At this point, while many people are religious, I think they also have a libertarian "live and let live" attitude about attempts to impose one set of religious values on everyone.

The problems with the Catholic Church have upset the applecart, but from what I can observe, it has made catholics more detached from the church, rather than seeking a more militant alternative.

[Ian David]

15. Anyone remember where THIS picture came from?

Bigotry: It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

[terrya]

7. Why are judges who interpret the law "activist judges"?

There is no legal reason to deny same-sex couples legal marriage. The judges who have ruled on this...such as those in Massachusetts...were merely doing their jobs.

Sorry...a bit OT. But I've always wondered about why judges are demonized by people like Robertson for doing what they're supposed to be doing.

BTW: I'm a militant agnostic. Does that count?

[whatever4]

8. They say we steal their religion, but what do THEY steal?

That always gets me, that "taking back" idea, as if we've stolen their religion, when in all reality, they're already the majority, with no fears of religious persecution, and further, they seek to steal FAR more than religion from those that don't follow theirs.

Religion is the LEAST of what the religious right seeks to take from all "others".

All other rights and freedoms are subject to biblical interpretation. They want to take away the CONSTITUTION from the rest of us to have their "religion". Toss away the idea of religious freedoms altogether; you're free to be Christian.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

9. Whenever these folks

start this, I look up in the New Testament all the passages Christ devoted to same sex marriages, activist judges and promiscuity. Oh that's right, I can't find any because they aren't there!
:mad:

[Lexingtonian]

14. They're sorta cute when they get mad....

but I don't see it working. If he tries this game in South Boston he'll be breaking up poor black churches. If he goes elsewhere in Boston he'll get overrun by fervent ex-Catholics but they tend to be on the elderly side and rather committed to infighting. The only place where there's the money for this kind of an aggressive effort (assuming Miranda actually means it) is in suburbia, where his quasi-Pentacostalism just isn't going to fly.

It doesn't add up to anything serious because it can't.

Oh, the corporate business model for churches...it seems like this fella, surprisingly, doesn't know anything about megachurches.

This isn't the first major effort at the Boston area. There were more of them during the Eighties. Around 1995 it all began to fizzle a bit. If we didn't have Midwesterners moving to the area and Asian immigrants they'd be in full-blown decline. Many late Gen X and most Gen Yer white kids are simply not going back to the churches.

The wierdest phenomenon we're having right now in New England is the Southern Baptists sending a lot of their Southern surplus ministers to take jobs in the rural churches that are too small and poor to attract others. It's making for a bit of cultural wierdness; I can't tell how well or badly it's working out. Then again, these churches exist largely so the elderly folks know they'll live out their days and die among friends.

[Beelzebud]

20. Cardinal Law was in Boston. I'd say the sickness has always been there...

[paineinthearse]

27. Most interesting post, and right in my back yard

Wonder if pillaries, stocks and witch hanging/burnings are in the plan?

Nominated.

I posted the Globe article in the Massachusetts forum (with some background information about the good pastor), where it is getting some interesting comments - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=158&topic_id=6021&mesg_id=6021

[Bill McBlueState]

28. the church as a corporation

Miranda, a Princeton University graduate who received a doctorate in Romance languages at Harvard University, said that in order to penetrate the culture, evangelical leaders must think of the church as a corporation.

''Any institution that is going to be effective needs to be more communicative about the product it's trying to sell and find its market," he said. ''Right now the market is a 21st century, secularly oriented community that is skeptical of what kind of practical services the church can offer."

------

I think it says a lot about the decline of supernaturalism that religionists think they have to emulate corporations to be successful. The corporate ethos is almost diametrically opposed to anything Jesus is claimed to have said.