Did Anyone Catch The ID "Debate" on Larry King Last Night?

[stopbush]

The ID proponents basically got their lunch handed to them. Deepak Chopra did his usual Jeckyl & Hyde routine, making a sensible point followed by some weird-ass shit.

Best was when the scientists debunked the message control crapola that they were in "a panic." Also, they pointed out that the IDers have NO scientific evidence to present.

King seemed mildly annoyed with the IDers.

[NoodleBoy]

1. got a transcript anywhere?

[stopbush]

3. I looked at the CNN site...couldn't find one.

[wryter2000]

2. Several years ago they did a Firing Line debate

I think it was Firing Line. Wm. Buckley was on the ID side, figures, with asshat Philip Johnson of the Berkeley law school and Michael Behe and a few others against Barry Lynn, Eugenie Scott, and some others. Michael Kinsley moderated. It was really great.

Glad to hear even L. King made some sense.

[longship]

9. Firing Line debate *was* great.

The guy who came off the best on that debate was Rev. Barry Lynn, a non-scientist. He creamed the ID side with calm, cool, unflappable logic. Americans United is very, very lucky to have the Rev. Lynn.

The guy who came off the worst was Buckley who was clearly out of his element and kept spewing rubbish. David Berlinsky (sp?), an engineer, was also very bad, argumentative and ill-behaved.

[wryter2000]

11. I forget which it was

One of the supporters of science looked at Buckely and said, "Bill, I'm surprised to see you over there."

Berlinksy. What an arrogant moron. He didn't even address any of the points.

[DIKB]

4. Their entire argument

lies in the fact that evolution is a theory. It's how they slime their way in, the ambiguity of the term. Sadly there is NOTHING to substantiate it beyond other outrageous, unproven theories.

Such as, I believe the Invisible Pink Unicorn created all life with the magic of her horn. "The Invisible Pink Unicorns is a being of great spiritual power. We know this because she is capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that she is pink; we logically know that she is invisible because we can't see her."



Her IPUship is, of course invisible... it is only through faith that we can see Her divine pinkness.

It is a theory, and can't be disproven. Now I DEMAND you teach it in school.


The New Revised Amalgamated Standard Creed
We believe in One Unicorn, The Pink, The Invisible. Creator of Uncertainty, revealed to us in the alt.atheist usenet forum - She that Raptures Socks. , She will smite those that mock Her brethren. Others believe baloney, we too will join the feast. We shall eat our fill, yea every belly shall be full of ham and pineapple pizza. Her Revelations show us the folly of all Religions. Spread Her Word.



I quote from Hoofprints 4:14 (by the prophet Ixian):

Yea, and I was given by inspiration that She was
next to me, and I could touch Her, being the loyal
servant, and I laid my hand upon Her mane, and
She *was* Pink. She was not pink, She was not
colourless, but She *felt* Pink, and I was thus
overcome. I awoke later with a hangover, but I
knew She was *yet* Pink, but invisible.

[TheDebbieDee]

5. I am so dense. Until I read your post, I thought this thread

was about ID cards! I was thinking, "Why the fock are scientists debating national ID cards?"

ETA: ID = Intelligent Design

[trof]

7. I'm just as dense as you are.

Can't keep up with all the acronyms.
(Is that the right word?)

[stopbush]

6. It starts with their not knowing the definition of the word *theory*

when used in a scientific context:

Main Entry: the·o·ry
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>

The asshats on the ID side of the argument equate theory with conjecture...and most of the lame-brained US populace buys it. How hard is it to understand that the same word has different meanings? If you use the word "can" around an IDer do they always assume you're talking about a storage device?

[TlalocW]

8. We need to get the vocabulary right

When you say unproven theories, you mean hypotheses. You can't let ID be called a theory - even an unproved one. That's where IDers sneak in - by saying, "Evolution is just a theory."

When a scientist says, "I have a theory," it's not the same as saying, "I have a hunch." It means, "I had a hypothesis that I developed after observing phenomena. I then tested it in accordance with the scientific method - made adjustments and re-tested the new adjusted as needed, collected data, and submitted them to my peers who were able to duplicate my work."

In science, theory essentially means fact - or at least the closest to fact that we can get as if something comes along that totally throws this theory for a loop, we'll start over.

TlalocW

[KittyWampus]

10. You even start out wrong. Evolution is a FACT evidenced by a physical

fossil record. And that physical record points to a Natural Law or Principle we can call Evolution.

Darwinism is a theory.

It's a flawed theory that reflects the Philosophy of Materialism that ruled at the time it became popular.

Darwinims is NOT the de facto theory of Evolution.

Materialsim is NOT the de facto Philosophy of Science.

And Athetheism has no place being taught in school to any degree just as THEISM has no place being taught in school.

[Zenlitened]

12. I have yet to hear ID explained WITHOUT using the words "evolution"...

... "Darwin," "natural selection," etc.

There's just no substance to it at all. Take away the snipes at evolution, and there's no "there" there.