What's the truth about Castro ?

[steve2470]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro

I went to Wikipedia above, and I didn't read anything about Castro being repressive or killing his opponents. However, for years I've read how horrible Castro is. What's the truth about Castro ?

[skids]

1. Well, I don't know much...

...other than right after the revolution he was pretty paranoid and struck out at some of his would-be allies quite repressively. He is a dictator -- benevolent, perhaps, but he does rule with a tight grip.

Which is not to be condoned -- the most benevolent ruler will make many mistakes if they do not tolerate any dissent. However, you also have to look at A) what the other options truly are and B) how much pain and suffering would result from a change. Waiting him out and then looking towards a more participatory government might be the course of least harm.

The U.S. policy towards him has been extremely unhelpful towards bringing about reform in Cuba, though.

[murray hill farm]

2. Castro is not a dictator!

His people (in Cuba) love him...his country is clean and friendly and not at all like what u hear in the usa media. Cuba is advanced in medical care, education, research, number of doctors per patient..education is free, medical care is free, the arts are supported by the govt...including training in dance and theater and all art education is free. the country and standard of living is poor in comparison to that in the usa, but the people there do not consider themselves to be poor...poor is in the eye of the beholder and actually has very little to do with the ownership of "things"..and this is evident everywhere in Cuba today. The Tv stations carry CNN direct from the USA in Cuba...and all that u here about censership of media in Cuba is a lie. The first time i went to Cuba...that was such a shock to me..that my country had lied so completely to me about Cuba.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. Wow, thanks for sharing that. I talked with a woman this summer who

had been to Cuba twice (once legally *g*) and she mentioned a lot of what you said. :)

[Mika]

22. I agree with much of mexicopat's post

I believed much of the US anti Cuba propaganda until I went there.

Cuba is NOTHING like the picture that Miamicuban "exiles" and US gov propaganda portrays.

Cuba is poor, to be sure, but it certainly isn't a gulag.

Mr Castro drives around in an open jeep, jogs slowly thru his neighborhood in Havana and Santiago de Cuba, shops in farmers markets and is greeted by throngs of people who revere him as a living revolutionary hero wherever he goes. No armed security shoving people away. He speaks in front of hundreds of thousands in the plazas around Cuba without bulletproof glass or a kevlar vest.


I am not a member of the "Castro did this and Castro did that" crowd. Its the Cuban people who built Cuba's social infrastructure.

Been there. Seen it.



Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. They worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.



The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books




Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.



Viva Cuba!

[blurp]

126. Tourists are meant to see the best of Cuba.

Click the link for another (non-tourist) view.

http://www.therealcuba.com/

[Judi Lynn]

Dupe. Delete, please. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

128. Why are there so many rental car agencies in Cuba?

Why do tourists rent cars, bikes, and motor homes and go wherever they want?

DU'ers have been posting for years about their own trips in rental cars, on bikes, on foot all over Cuba.

Don't even try to fool DU'ers. They know better.

[ronnykmarshall]

155. Thank you for posting that.

I have a friend that went to Cuba with a groups of teachers. While she said the people are beautiful and friendly, she also noted that they do shortages of many things and that their is poverty.

I heard a lady on Ed Schultz yesterday talking about how her in-laws in Cuba have spoke of how there are shortages of basic things. In hospitals women having babies are told to bring their own towels, blankets and sheets. The mothers to discharged from the hospitals the same day they give birth.

It's not all rosey as some people like to paint it.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

11. black cubans love him-he spread out the wealth

which was once concetrated in the hands of batista's light-skinned followers, most of whom now run the miami mob

[name not needed]

13. He's been in power since 1959

And I don't ever recall him being elected. The other stuff doesn't make a difference. He's still a dictator.

[bunyip]

113. One of the best-kept media secrets about Cuba

http://www.periodico26.cu/english_new/elections/secrets010405.htm

One of the best-kept media secrets about Cuba is that the country holds regularly scheduled elections and that the Communist Party has nothing to do with the candidate selection.

...

Another surprise to those unfamiliar with the Cuban electoral system is that money is not the driving force, a refreshing difference from the dance of dollars and unethical practices that characterize campaigns throughout a continent where winning public office can be highly profitable.

Cuba does not claim to have a perfect electoral system but defends it as being more voter-friendly than others. As in most countries, the electoral law is subject to constitutional amendments, like occurred in 1992, when it was decided that provincial delegates and national parliament members should be elected by voters just like local representatives.

....

After Canada, Cuba is the most democratic nation in the Americas.

I expect there is coercion and corruption behind the scenes, but the same is true of my country.

I generally detest Communists, but Cuba's people keep voting for them :shrug:


Castro wasn't always a Socialist.

He and his rebels fought under a Reformist/Nationalist ideology during the Cuban Revolution.

The Cuban Communist Party reviled him as a "Bourgeoisie Putchist". He sought US recognition after the '59 revolution, but got an embargo instead. He suddenly discovered his inner Communist, and was rolling in Soviet aid. :eyes:

I liked Castro a lot better after I read that.

(Reference "Guerrilla War" by Robert Taber)

[julianer]

114. I see you haven't troubled

yourself by reading the links provided in post 22.

I strongly advise you do so in order to avoid your obvious misunderstanding.

[Catholic Sensation]

15. CUBA IS THE ABSOLUTE BESTEST COUNTRY TO LIVE EVER

The government instead of say spending billions of dollars silencing any form of dissent against the beloved dictat--- i mean president, they make sure everyone is living well and driving the best Edsels and Chryslers money could buy in the 1950s! People are "never" executed for thinking their country would be better served by democracy instead of authoritarian socialism, instead they're welcomed with open arms from executioners and politicians alike!

Cuba is a perfect place to live like Iraq was before we invaded. Oh yeah, and people have electricity there. TOP THAT AMERICA!

[Balbus]

18. I wouldn't be detecting a little sarcasm there, would I?

:toast:

[Catholic Sensation]

19. Oh I'm dead serious

Cuba, Iraq, Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh, Cambodia under Pol Pot. Once America's presence left, those countries improved immediately! PULL OUR TROOPS OUT NOW SO MUQTADA AL SADR CAN KILL HALF THE COUNTRY IN A WONDERFUL MURDEROUS RAMPAGE ALA THE KHMER ROUGE!!!

[Name removed]

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[U4ikLefty]

100. are you denying that the Crusedes were brought by the Catholics???

If that is bigotry...then I guess historians are bigots, right?!?

[alittlelark]

103. How did the conversation switch to Pol Pot? I thought Castro

was the discussion. WOW.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[I concur]

158. The men who left the 26th of July movement

JOHN T. SKELLY

One more 26th of July -- count them. It has been 51 years since Fidel Castro, his brother Raúl, 17 men and two women attacked Moncada, the Cuban army barracks in Santiago de Cuba.

Twenty soldiers were killed. Fidel Castro and five others escaped to the nearby hills, where they soon were captured, tried and sentenced to 15 years each.

However, in May 1955, they were freed in a general amnesty by the Cuban Congress. Castro then went to Mexico to prepare for the Dec. 2, 1956, invasion of Cuba with 81 men.

Now once more Castro will be in the center where he will recount in a three- or four-hour speech (if he can endure that long) the glories of that 26th of July and the events that led up to the great victory on Jan. 1, 1959, when the revolution took over from the Batista regime.

Sadly, Castro will not be able to tell his audience that most of the leaders of the 26th of July movement ``are at my side today.''

The original 26th of July movement disappeared almost immediately after Castro sold out to the Soviet Union and the Cuban Communist Party.

The democratic members of the movement who fought side by side with him in the Sierra Maestra mountains and were in the underground in the cities and towns are dead, in jail or in exile.

BETRAYED COMRADES

The following are some of the original members who were double-crossed by Castro:

· Maj. Sorí Marín, author of the original agrarian-reform program, who fought alongside Castro in the mountains, was caught conspiring with other rebel army officers who had fought to restore democracy and freedom to Cuba. He was executed on specific orders of Castro himself several days before the Bay of Pigs invasion, April 17, 1961.

· Maj. Víctor Mora saved Fidel, Raúl, Che Guevara and other survivors when they landed from Mexico on Dec. 2, 1956. A Sierra Maestra native, Mora led them around the Cuban Army to a safe haven high up in the mountains.

After the victory, it didn't take Mora long to realize that he and others had been sold out by Castro. Caught conspiring, Mora was sentenced to 40 years. Once released he was targeted by Castro to be killed but he escaped to the United States, where he lived modestly in Little Havana.

· Pedro Luis Díaz Lanz flew weapons from Venezuela and Costa Rica to Castro's ``eagle's nest'' in the mountains. After victory, he was named Castro's personal pilot. But soon he complained to Castro that Raúl and Guevara were indoctrinating his air force men in Marxism.

Tipped that Castro had ordered his arrest and execution, Díaz Lanz and his wife, Tania, and brother barely escaped to Miami in a sailboat in June 1959. Weeks later, Díaz Lanz became the first ``26-er'' to testify before a U.S. Senate committee, accusing Castro of selling out the revolution to the Soviet Union.

· Maj. Húber Matos, a school teacher turned guerrilla fighter, was one of the genuine heroes in the fight against the Cuban army. In October 1959, 10 months after the revolution came to power, Matos sent a letter of resignation to Castro, complaining that communists, who had not lifted a finger to oust the Batista regime, were taking over the revolution.

Castro ordered a court martial in which Matos was accused of being a ``counterrevolutionary.'' After serving a 40-year sentence, Matos came to Miami, where he has been one of the leaders of the Cuban Forum.

· Jesús Yánes Pelletier was a sergeant in the Cuban Army assigned to Boniato Prison, where Castro was sent after being sentenced for attacking the Moncada barracks. Yánes Pelletier was ordered to poison Castro's food. He refused, was given a dishonorable discharge and then joined the 26th of July movement.

When the revolution arrived, Castro made Yánes Pelletier a captain in charge of his personal guard. Soon Yánes Pelletier became disenchanted with the communists and began conspiring. He was caught and in 1977 was sentenced to 25 years.

· Among the saddest cases -- and there are hundreds in every city, town and village in Cuba -- is that of Mario Chanes de Armas. He had impeccable credentials as a founder of the revolutionary movement with Castro before the attack on the Moncada barracks.

Chanes de Armas survived the Moncada attack, trained in Mexico, came over on the yacht Gramma and lived to greet Castro in Havana when the conquering heroes arrived on Jan. 9, 1959, on top of a U.S. Sherman tank. The movement disappeared after Castro sold out to the Soviet Union and the Communist Party.

Chanes de Armas could have had any position he wanted in the revolutionary government, but he opted to return to his work in a brewery. For two years he watched his former leader betray their movement. Finally, he spoke against the communists. He was tried as a ``counterrevolutionary,'' and on July 17, 1961, was sentenced to 30 years.

After spending six years in solitary, he was released exactly 30 years to the date of his imprisonment. In 1993 he was united with his four sisters in Miami.

Although he doesn't belong to any exile political group, he forms part of a group of former prisoners who travel throughout Latin America talking to heads of states about the reality of Castro's Cuba.

John T. Skelly of Fort Lauderdale was correspondent for United Press International in Cuba during the late 1950s.

[Ladyhawk]

160. Isn't anyone who doesn't relinquish power a dictator?

Even if he really is benevolent (I have no knowledge of whether he is or not), it's wrong to hang onto power indefinitely.

[soothsayer]

3. Total hubris that makes us shun Cuba. The gods do not like

hubris.

Still, key west is ruined from gearing up for travel to cuba if castro ever dies.

[Catholic Sensation]

4. Soviet tool while the soviet union was in power

Frequently cited by groups like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the UN Commission on Human Rights as being repressive.

Also allowed widespread murder of homosexuals which for the majority of the time he has been an authoritarian despot he believed was a disgusting personal lifestyle choice.

Why the left admires him is beyond me.

[Yupster]

5. He took office the same month I was born

I'm 46.

I really don't agree with this President for Life stuff.

[Mika]

20. Actually, he didn't.

Mr Castro went to law school after the 1959 revolution.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html
Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

[alittlelark]

106. Perhaps some on the left admire him for his POVERTY programs...

and the doctors he sends all over the world, and his education program (one of the lowest illiteracy rates in the world), and the fact that he seems to not give a rats ass about corporate power.

[blurp]

127. He's got you fooled, apparently.

http://www.therealcuba.com/index.htm







And you have to love that free health care! This was taken at a Havana hospital:

[ButterflyBlood]

138. and that so makes up for human rights violations

Doesn't matter if you have no right to free speech or dissent, just as long as you can read and get a flu shot! :eyes:

[Name removed]

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[K-W]

136. Cuba used the Soviet Union to keep the US from invading.

Im not exactly sure how that makes them a tool.

[moddemny]

6. "What's the truth about Castro ?"

Why don't you find some Cuban exiles and ask them why they risked their lives to come here.

[cire4]

14. Would their answers be any different than

the Mexicans (who hail from a free and democratic country BTW) who risk their lives to come here?

People immigrate for money. Like the Mexicans and Central Americans who risk their lives to come to America, the Cuban exiles are motivated by the prospects of earning more money. It's all economics. It has little to do with Castro himself.

[moddemny]

134. "It's all economics. It has little to do with Castro himself."

Really? I wonder why so many Cuban exiles are so profoundly interested in having a new government at home.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y98/jan98/15e1.htm

[cire4]

144. Maybe because many of the Cuban exiles

are part of the entrepeneurial/private enterprise/landowner class. When Castro nationalized everything and reverted to a communist economy, they lost the most. They want to see a new government in Cuba so they can return to the island, re-claim their land, and set up their private businesses.

Many exiles want to return to Cuba, but only if it has an economic system resembling that of the United States. They feel like they can earn a better living that way.

Once again, it's all about money and economics.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

7. he's bad, but not nearly as bad as other dictators supported by the u.s.

difference is, he won't let corporations milk his island dry, while the other will play ball. suddenly, human rights becomes an issue.

however, remember that next time you this:

[eridani]

41. You clearly understand the difference between good Communists--

--and bad Communists. The good kind (like China) let western corporations use their populationas as virtual slave labor, and the bad ones (like Cuba) don't.

[Catholic Sensation]

52. china is hardly a good communist nation

cuba and china are incredibly repressive societies who don't allow dissent. Mao and Castro are both douchebags who don't deserve any kind of reverence.

[eridani]

65. WalMart reveres China a whole lot, it would seem n/t

[Mika]

71. Americans revere China too

They seem to flock to buy cheaply produced Chinese made products. No unions there. Americans (especially BushCo) simply love it.

In Cuba every profession is represented by a union.

If Cuba banned unions and had sweatshops manufacturing cheap garments, shoes, and TV's I bet we'd see Cuban products here in a New York minute. But Cuba doesn't have such sweatshops.

[Catholic Sensation]

85. what the fuck do i care who wal mart reveres?

Ben Afflect reveres the Boston Red Sox a whole lot, it would seem.

I can bring up irrelevant shit not related to the point too!

[cire4]

96. It seemed to be quite relevant....

A lesson in US foreign policy hypocrisy....

American corporations love China. Therefore, China is a "good" communist country and they are excused for their repressions....

American corporations don't love Cuba because they can't profit off the island. Therefore, they are a "bad" communist country....

But then again, its hard to call China "communist." Mao has been dead for 30 years and China is pretty much as capitalist and money-hungry as the United States.

[ButterflyBlood]

139. that's not relevant to the question at hand

The post wasn't asking about US foreign policy hypocriscy, it was asking about Castro.

Yes, the US has a hypocritial foreign policy. How does that change things in Cuba or China? China still sucks, Cuba still sucks. This is a total red herring.

[cire4]

142. Sure it is.....

The subject of this thread is the questioning and challenging of a fundamental belief that is held in this country: Fidel Castro is a repressive, murdering dictator.

By pointing out that the United States has a motive and interest in shifting the public opinion toward this belief, we see that there is good reason to doubt or question elements of this belief. For any attempt to shift the public opinion is going to require propaganda, some of which may not be completely accurate. We must separate the truth about Castro from the propaganda that has been collectively absorbed by American society throughout the past 45 years, which is what this thread is trying to do.

[ButterflyBlood]

157. So do you deny that Castro is a repressive, murdering dictator?

Are Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, two organizations that say this, just outlets for neocon propaganda?

[cire4]

167. Did I ever say that I denied it???

There's your answer...

[alittlelark]

108. Been drinkin' a bit too much of the sacramental wine?

Go to sleep, and re-read your posts in the AM.

A few advil and some Vit. C..... it's all cool.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

145. Uh... isn't Mao DEAD or something?

And why can't you read sarcasm?

The poster was clearly bashing the kid gloves China gets treated with because of $$$ (ex. Wal-Mart)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

149. YOU, sir, have sense. (nt)

[KG]

8. Batista was just a mistunderstood proto-neolib

[tlsmith1963]

10. He is Not the "Threat" He Once Was

I mean, the Soviet Union is gone. How is he such a big threat anymore? I think of him now as just another dictator.

Tammy

[steve2470]

12. Just so I don't come across as being completely ignorant...

I have been told that Castro and his allies took property from both large corporations and smaller landowners, and that some were killed in the process. I am very much aware that many Cubans came to the USA and Miami in particular in the early 1960's to escape Castro. I'm also aware that others have risked their lives in flimsy crafts to get to Florida. I've also read that no one is allowed to publicly dissent from Castro, or they get thrown into prison. I'm sure Castro would deny all the negative if one spoke to him, but my 1st post was phrased as such to open up the information flow.

[OxQQme]

16. If a leader with social credentials

overthrew this current b*shit administration and ruled with an iron hand to get some of the same benefits that Cuba has (no homeless, free medical, education to the highest degrees, etc.) for the citizens of this sorry state we're in here, in the land of freedoms, you would hear all kinds of hatred issued forth from the right wing side. Tens of thousands would leave this country and say how bad it's gotten here.
My rememberance of the Cuba situation is that Castro kicked the mafia crowd off his island and closed up their playgrounds and casinos and drug runners, so the repercussions are the current, well, the last 40 years, spin, ie EVIL.
To continue spewing the koolaid is to be uninformed.
A close friend goes there 2 or 3 times a year (she won't tell me how she gets there), has a Phd in Latin sociology, doesn't hang in the cities but in the outack villages in peoples homes and tells tales of happy people.
No worries mon.

[the_spectator]

62. "No worries mon" -

well that sounds mellow and laid-back and cool!

But I was struck earlier on by the whole "and ruled with an iron hand" thing --- implying that it would work great, even though "tens of thousands" of bad guys would flee, whine, and complain about it...

Dude, :scared:!

[julianer]

119. The reason for the 'iron hand'

is as much to do with the continuing subversion organised by the CIA and others as it is any natural repressive desire on Castro's part.

They are constantly trying to find ways to undermine Cuba including assassination, bombings, economic blockade and chemical warfare. If this was happening in any country there would be pressure for clampdowns - as is happening at the moment in the UK after the tube bombings.

Please read about Cuba - it is much more complicated and completely different from the propaganda that passes for knowledge in many in the world.

Isn't the point of the Patriot Act that 'freedom' is restrained in order to improve security?

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[ButterflyBlood]

137. so you're comparing Castro's regime to the Patriot Act

that's hardly a stunning thing to be modeled after.

[Placebo]

17. Castro is only a commie fascist dictator...

and total enemy to freedom and democracy everywhere.

Anyone offering a 'different take' on the subject is delusional and ignorant to the facts and reality of daily life in Cuba.

Ugh, I can't believe in the 21st century so many people could still think the "jury is out", so to speak, on f'n Castro. On CASTRO!

[julianer]

121. Read the links in post 22

You are wrong and not scared to show it ;-)

[Judi Lynn]

123. Make that "information-free." Thanks. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

156. Well we all know how you "Hillarites" are!!

:silly: :sarcasm:

[iwantmycountryback]

21. I'm sure all the people that go to Miami in makeshift rafts loved it there

I mean I'm sure Orlando Hernandez came to Miami in a tiny raft and could never return again and did not see his family for years because it is so great there.

[Mika]

24. Just like immigrants from all over the Caribbean and Latin Americas

Boat loads of immigrants come to Fla. from many other democratic nations too.

EXCEPT, they do not get the perks that Cuban immigrants do.

Understand that most of the Cuban immigrants that have come to the US have come here for the same reasons that immigrants from all over the Caribbean and Latin Americas come to the US.. jobs. Jobs that help them earn enough money to send some back to their family in their homeland. The majority of Cuban immigrants don't have an all consuming hatred of Fidel Castro, and the USA offers Cubans many avenues and a wealth of exclusive perks for immigrating here.. plus they can travel back to their homeland and take or send money.. just like almost all other immigrants do.


The USA offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush just announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. Its the US interests section in Cuba that does the criminal background check on the applicants.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits Cuban criminals and felons who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US despite having failed to qualify for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks). Perks like instant work visa, instant green card, instant access to sec 8 taxpayer assisted housing, instant social security, instant welfare, free health care, and more.

These perks are not offered to any other immigrant group, but yet, without the perks offered to Cubans, immigrants still pour into the US from all over the Caribbean and the Latin Americas - many taking greater risks than Cubans to get here.


Get it? There is no such thing as a Cuban illegal immigrant. Plus, they get perks that no other group is offered.

[Catholic Sensation]

43. america must do this so cubans can make america as wonderful as cuba

considering you seem to be a cuba fan i'm assuming that's what your motivation for posting this is

[blurp]

131. He's motivated by ideology. He'll forgive anything.

It took a long time for people to give up astrology and alchemy.

Communism might take even longer.

http://www.therealcuba.com

[Catholic Sensation]

23. how many rafts come here and how many go there

nuff said

[Mika]

26. No such thing as a Cuban illegal immigrant in the US

nuff said

[Cha]

25. Good question and I got on

this thread to see if I could get some answers. As usual there are extreme opposite Opinions and reports.

Elian Gonzales' dad evidently liked it there..and it's not like we have anything resembling fair elections here since 2000. Oh, there's the usual show but what's happening behind the diebold scenes?

I'm not saying I want to go live under Castro but if the bushwa are so strong against Castro ..It's probably because they always need a Boogeyman and Castro fits the bill.

[CubsFan1982]

27. He's a ruthless communist dictator responsible for the deaths of thousands

Anyone who tells you otherwise is an apologist for a totalitarian regime.

[Mika]

28. Links please.

Oh, and not from the Batistanos or Uncle Sam. Thanks.

[ButterflyBlood]

33. Just search Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International

Just do a search for "Cuba" on their sites. The reports aren't exactly merry.

And typically those are not considered right wing neocon sources.

[CubsFan1982]

35. No, I think those would be considered "Batistanos" and "Uncle Sam".

See, because they're too critical of Uncle Fidel. Truth hurts, don't it?

[Mika]

38. Then, the US is a hellhole too then

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Usa-summary-eng

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Head of state and government: George W. Bush

Death penalty: retentionist

International Criminal Court: signed

More than 600 foreign nationals – most arrested during the military conflict in Afghanistan – were detained without charge or trial or access to counsel or family members in the US naval base in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The USA refused to recognize them as prisoners of war or allow their status to be determined by a “competent tribunal” as required under the Geneva Conventions. There were concerns about the situation of others taken into US custody outside the USA, some of whom were held in undisclosed locations. Many of the 1,200 foreign nationals detained in the USA during investigations into the 11 September 2001 attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center were also deprived of safeguards under international law, as were two US nationals held incommunicado in military custody in the USA as “enemy combatants”. Death sentences continued to be imposed and carried out under state and federal law. There were reports of police brutality, deaths in custody and ill-treatment in prisons and jails.

Many more horrors.. http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Usa-summary-eng http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/Usa-summary-eng


Kinda makes the arrests of 75 US paid "journalists" (half of whom have subsequently been released) who were aiding and abeting the declared enemy state of the system of government of Cuba (that is: the US, that has funded and assisted directly in terror ops against Cuba for 45+ years) seem mild.

[CubsFan1982]

40. Like I didn't see this coming a mile away.

We're talking about Cuba, not the United States. Comment on Cuba's human rights abuses, then maybe we'll talk about our problems.

[Mika]

42. First, we should clean our house before demanding it of others

The US doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding human rights abuse accusations against Cuba (especially now).

[CubsFan1982]

44. I'm still waiting.

I'm not the United States government. And as I recall, the OP didn't ask "What's the truth about Bush?" You're still not addressing the findings of these organizations.

[ronnykmarshall]

161. GASP!!

I thought you were my FRIEND!!! Now I find out your A FREEPER!!!

I bet you've even said bad thing about HOWARD DEAN!!!!

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ButterflyBlood]

49. Not to mention not what the post was asking

What's the deal with Castro. That gave the answer, he's a dictator who's carried out many human rights violations.

Yes, the US has too, yes the US has supported dictators who are even worse. But that's not relevant to the question at hand. Castro's scum, there's worse scum out there. But Castro's still scum.

[Mika]

56. Not at all

The US state dept should stand atop the US death row jailhouses, prisons brimming with minorities, and US torture camps at Gitmo and Afghanistan and Turkmenistan, etc, and scream LOOK LOOK LOOK at Castro.

That's what a good BushCrimeInc supporter would do.


_________________________________________________



One of the AI links says

In February a busload of youths crashed a bus into the Mexican embassy..

Famous incident. Innocent people were hurt. Cubans and Mexicans. The Mexican government demanded that these criminals be arrested.

I guess that we should support criminals who hijack vehicles and crash them thru our embassy gates too then.

The US offers over 26,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year. The US interests section does the required background search. Why didn't this group use the legal avenues to immigrate? Maybe they didn't qualify for legal immigration to any country, due to a violent criminal background?


Statements like this one from AI just undermines any credibility of AI, if they want us to support their position that violent hijackers who injure people while ramming the gates of an embassy represent "Castro's repression". It was the Mexican government that demanded the violent bus hijackers/gate crashers removal from their embassy in Cuba, because they had no legitimate claim of asylum - even before they hijacked a bus w/passengers and rammed the embassy gates, injuring Mexican personnel and Cuban bus passengers.
Why didn't the US grant them visas if they had legitimate asylum claims?


But AI suggests that this activity be supported, and Cuba be condemned for their arrest.


This is one example of AI's "neutral" observations on Cuba. NOT.

[Catholic Sensation]

57. it's isolationist and irretreivably stupid

and i wanted to kick something because this 'we need to fix america first before fixing other nations' crap allowed hitler to initiate his final solution when he should have been engaged much earlier.

[Mika]

59. So you are saying ..

.. essentially that other nations should stop being isolationists and intervene in and "fix" the US before Bush initiates his final solution.

All things being measured by your same yardstick, this is what you are saying.

[Catholic Sensation]

61. and the final solution you're talking about?

[Mika]

66. Read the PNAC documents.

World domination. Imperialism. Bio weapons development (and use). Its been discussed here on DU for a long time.

BushCrimeInc's Mein Kampf.


Cuba (or Castro) hasn't any such plans.

[Catholic Sensation]

67. ahhh a conspiracy theorist

and Bush did 9-11 right?

[U4ikLefty]

82. How is the quoting the PNAC being a conspiracy theorist???

Please provide evidence that the abocve poster insinuated that 9/11 was caused by Bu$h.

Are you denying the PNAC's strategy to invade Iraq??? Maybe you think that namecalling will shut us up in some kind of shameful "liberal self-hatefest"...wake up CS, that don't work no more & the "War on Terror" is nothing but a resource-grab by the rich & powerful...whom have no loyalty to the U.S. BTW!!!

[Catholic Sensation]

84. i'm denying a pnac final solution

i'm denying much to the shock of you who seem to love castro despite his being a complete and utter scumbag murderer that any of our leaders has a plot to murder millions upon millions of americans.

PNAC is an organization made up of a lot of pundits by the way, and is led by a pundit in William Kristol. The members of it are people I think have shitty politics and policies, but I doubt they're any more influential than, say, a company like Halliburton who has ties to several Bush Administration members does.

[U4ikLefty]

99. Hlliburton is VERY infulential...are you denying that???

..and the "PNAC is an organization made up of a lot of pundits"??? that is a laugh riot...lemme give you a FEW of the names of the PNAC:

Dick Cheney
Steve Forbes
Donald Rumsfeld
Paul Wolfowitz
Jeb Bush
Elliott Abrams


...nah, just a bunch of "pundits"...lol, give me a break!!! I'm done with you!!!

[ButterflyBlood]

53. This is just like the right wing "Clinton defense"

That being, whenever there is something indefensible about this current MisAdministration, bring up Clinton.

Bush lies to drag us into war? Doesn't matter, look Clinton lied about a blow job.

Karl Rove threatening national security? Doesn't matter, look, Clinton had this corrupt guy in his cabinet.

Typical red herring. Clinton has nothing to do with the current disaster we have in office, and the US has nothing to with Castro's human rights abuses.

[Mika]

36. ButterflyBlood, I have. Check this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2843382#2845770

Let it load, then follow the response thread.

:hi:

[Catholic Sensation]

39. here we go

Amnesty International:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/July2003/Cuba
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ENG-AMR250172003

Human Rights Watch:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/27/cuba8500.htm

Need anything else or are these Batista-ite Neocons?

[Mika]

51. Try this..

Plug the USA into the search engines of those very same sites.

Cuba's violations are mild in comparison.

I am not excusing abuses by the Cuban government, but we (as in: the US) need solid ground to stand on regarding accusations against and demands placed on Cuba. The US's violations are horrendous, global, and massive in volume. Cuba's are not.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

58. So by your "reasoning"..

.. Cuba (and/or other nations) should intervene in the US's repression and abuses?

Good for the goose, good for the gander. Right?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

63. But you said "INTERVENE".

That is the word you used. "INTERVENE". AKA Bush policy.

On the other hand, if a neighbor who's yard is littered with heaping mounds of garbage and trash is screaming to another neighbor "HEY, CLEAN UP YOUR YARD", who the hell would take them seriously?


Im not espousing isolationism. I'm espousing cleaning up our own back yard which would lend some authority to our claims and make our accusations appear genuine and with integrity.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

68. Your claims for interventionism is Bush policy.

Your crude pronouncements are Rovian.

[Catholic Sensation]

69. yes i'm a right wing fascist who loves people being free

what nazi i am :eyes:

[Mika]

74. You support Bush policy

As indicated by your sarcastic post in this thread.



FYI, it was the Vietnamese commies who put an end to the Khmer Rouge.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[U4ikLefty]

79. Prove it!!! That our prescence is somehow a "stablizing" force???

I haven't seen it yet...but you spout it like it was truth. Perhaps you can read the future...tell me what the Lotto number will be "oh soothsayer"!!!

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

102. I'd be violating US law, doing so.

The US doesn't allow Americans to travel to Cuba by any means.

I don't advocate breaking US law, as you do.

--


CS--> "for you to claim that because our human rights record isn't stellar that cuba shouldn't have to fix its shit"



WTF are you talking about? I have never said that Cubans in Cuba shouldn't "fix shit". That is just who should make the changes in Cuba. I have only stated that the US has little ground to stand on when accusing Cuba of violations, and no right to intervene.

Americans should clean up their own yard, just as Cubans should too.


Why don't you call it a night. You are simply flailing and thrashing about and getting nowhere logical. You are so bent outta shape that you are imagining (projecting maybe?) what others are saying. Plus, the insults aren't working either.

[U4ikLefty]

89. How will occupiers "win over" the "insurgency"???

I'm sure you haven't given this much thought. You seem to cling to your slogans & patroitic fervor to comfort you about this disaster. Let me tell you, just like a bungled robbery..we should just walk away before we really feel the shit!!!

Lemme tell ya...Russia & China aren't buddying up (militarily) for no reason. Think about it!!!

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

98. Gotta support the war because of the war.

Many must die because many have died.

Makes sense.

:crazy:


While you're clinging to hope (turnin' the corner? got 'em on the run?), maybe you should smell the coffee. The majority of Iraqis don't want us there. (Just like Cubans in Cuba don't want the US to intervene in Cuba. Visit on a friendly basis, but not to intervene.)

[U4ikLefty]

105. Peace Mika!!!

nice to hear from ya!!!

[Mika]

109. Back at ya!!

Likewise.

:hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

148. Oh CRAP... it is the IRAQI WAR he was defending???

:wow:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

147. Delete

Too many deleted messages, but now I got it.

[AuntPatsy]

151. He doesn't support Bush policy, its not his reasoning, its more along

the lines of trying to allow the argument does not get out of sinc with the half truths.

I really hate that you made me defend him by the way, hes a bit uppity for my tastes.

[I concur]

159. see # 158

Castro is "El Caudillo" personified!

[Placebo]

46. You are 100% correct.

How anyone could disagree with you, Cubs, is beyond me. They're just playing the role of protectors and appeasers for terrorist fascist scum like Castro. It's sickening.

[cire4]

72. Nope...playing the role of devil's advocate would be more accurate

It's obvious that many at DU are more politically and historically informed about America and the rest of the world than the average Joe. They know that the US likes to pick and choose which dictators to demonize and which ones to keep quiet about. It doesn't take a political scientist with a Ph.D. to figure out in which category Castro fits. The US government has been the driving anti-Castro force in the world and has been showering propaganda across seven continents in that regard.

Therefore, it's not some grave sin to demand that these anti-Castro statements be backed up. It's not the appeasement of "terrorist scum" to draw comparisons between the Cuban government and other countries' government to put US foreign policy in perspective. It's not the "protection" of a Communist dictator to actually bring up some positive aspects about Cuba.

What you witness at DU is not the support or defense of, or sympathy for Fidel Castro. Rather, it's the systemic challenging of conventionally held beliefs about the world. It's what informed people do. It's not just Castro. There have been similar sentiments expressed toward Kim Jong Il, Osama bin Laden, and the Iraqi insurgents at DU.

It's not some moral deficiency to question, doubt, criticize, or re-think. It's using one's brain.

[ButterflyBlood]

164. So what about Holocaust deniers?

They're "systemic challenging a conventionally held belief about the world". Is that a good thing?

What about all the loopy stuff the LaRouchites believe? Should we consider that stuff as well?

They are some things that are just blatanty obvious. And anyone who thinks Osama bin Laden is anything but a terrorist or that Kim Jong Il is anything but a murderous totalitarian dictator is seriously out of touch with reality.

And if you are aruging that absolutely no one on this thread is really pro-Castro, that's not exactly what I'm seeing.

[cire4]

169. And if a holocaust denier comes to DU....

And starts making brash statements about how the the holocaust never happened, then it is justifiable for you to criticize, challenge, and doubt his or those statements and claims.

It's the same thing in this thread. When someone says, "Castro is a ruthless communist dictator who is responsible for the deaths of thousands" and doesn't provide any substantial back up, people should be free to demand proof or cast doubt on that claim without being branded as a communist "appeaser" or fascist "protector."

There are some things that are just blatantly obvious.

Well, that should make your argument that much easier....provided that you can show its obviousness...

[alittlelark]

111. In what way is Castro a 'Fascist'?

Fascism is the merger of Corporate and Gov't under a dictator (find a pre-1980 dictionary).

[blurp]

132. The state before the individual is Fascism

Fascism is the merger of Corporate and Gov't under a dictator (find a pre-1980 dictionary).

That's right as long as you understand what "corporate" means in the context of Fascism.

It doesn't mean just "businesses". It means corporate in the same way the ACLU and the AFL/CIO are corporations.

Read the wikipedia entry on "corporatism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

[name not needed]

48. Finally, someone with some sense.

[1932]

70. According to Richard Gott's book, he doesn't run the country anymore.

Or at least, not like he did until the early 80s.

He appears in public much less frequently.

The president, finance department, head of the military and one other position which I can't remember are very autonomous and determine their own policy and the country's policy. Half the government staff are under 35.

Gott says that Castro's generation has not only passed on the power, but they've passed it very far down to a a very young generation.

[steve2470]

29. Upon further research, the URL below answers my question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

If the material is true, which I have no reason to doubt, Castro sure isn't Thomas Jefferson in a military uniform.

[Mika]

34. FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer

WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY

Wikipedia is an online open-content collaborative encyclopedia, that is, a voluntary association of individuals and groups who are developing a common resource of human knowledge. The structure of the project allows anyone with an Internet connection and World Wide Web browser to alter its content. Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals with the expertise necessary to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information.

That is not to say that you will not find valuable and accurate information in Wikipedia; much of the time you will. However, Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here. The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields.

No formal peer review

[ButterflyBlood]

30. He's really just another dictator when you get down to it

Far from the worst dictator in the world, as many many worse ones have been supported by the neocons throughout the years and has been somewhat unfairly demonized. But still a dictator when you get down to it.

I find the idea that all the jailed political dissidents and reporters to be a complete right wing fabrication like some of the left claim to be a little ludicrous. Just go look through Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch's reports on Cuba. Hardly right wing neocon sources.

[MidnightWind]

31. so if he's so wonderful and Cuba is such a great place to live. . .

why do people go to such extremes to come to the US?

[Mika]

32. Read post #24

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4448924&mesg_id=4451717

[eridani]

45. Same reason that they come from Mexico,

Haiti, Guatemala, etc. Those people all take far greater risks than Cubans, and don't get any of the special instant welfare deals that Cubans get.

[rman]

107. 1. negative propaganda

2. fact is, it's kinda hard to become rich in Cuba. (though it's also hard to die of poverty in Cuba)

[1932]

37. A good book: Richard Gott's Cuba: A New History

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300104111/qid=1124944646/sr=8-4/ref=pd_bbs_4/104-9002889-8520749?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[steve2470]

50. Addendum to my original post: There IS a section on human rights

in the article. How I missed it, is beyond me. The only reason I asked the original question, is because I had read good things about Castro here, instead of the 100% negative I usually read.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. .

:popcorn:

[the_spectator]

73. The truth about Castro? Simple answer,

in the words of Dana Carvey, channeling Poppy Bush:

"It's bad, IT'S BAD!!!"

Wanna try to argue that Castro's really a good guy and all the Cubans love him?
"Wouldn't be PRU-dent!"

(You know, way back when, there used to be a strong contingent of what was known as the "anti-communist left" -- you know, the ADA, Adlai Stevenson, Norman Thomas, people like that -- yeah, nobodies really. :crazy:

[Selatius]

75. He probably isn't a democratic socialist like, say, Hugo Chavez

"Democratic" is the key word. Although it may be true that Cubans aren't exploited like Chinese workers in China are, the fact is both nations are devoid of any democratic institutions. Socialism without true functioning democracy whatsoever is not something I, as a Libertarian Socialist, would ever support.

[Mika]

77. "both nations are devoid of any democratic institutions". Not true

I was in Cuba during the entire 1997-98 election season.


Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others (all elected to their seats in the National Assembly representing their respective districts) were among the nominated last election season. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[the_spectator]

80. Standard practice -

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Yeah, they had similar "groups" on the ballot in places like Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia when they were "satellite states" of the USSR: essentially fossilized, shrunken old parties from the pre-WWII
era whose remaining leaders were threatened and bribed into compliance with the Communist Party - front groups for the dictatorship - a "popular front" built and maintained by the secret police.

[Mika]

83. Oh please. Go tell that to nobel prize winner Oswaldo Paya..

.. head of the Christian Democratic Party of Cuba.

Cuba isn't Hungary, Poland, nor Czechoslovakia.

[rman]

93. democracy in Cuba may be marginal - as it is in the US,

difference is, in Cuba no-one is dying of hunger or disease.

[bluestateguy]

97. How did Castro do in the last Cuban election?

Crickets: Chirp, chirp, chirp...

[the_spectator]

101. Probably won 90% of the vote or something -

with paper ballots! Without benefit of Diebold!
Now THAT'S an efficient dictatorship! Dubya could only dream!

[Mika]

110. He won his seat in the National Assembly

District #7 in the city of Santiago de Cuba (his family hometown).

He was selected as Head of State by the elected National Assembly membership.

Mostly a figurehead position. As Cuba's most prominent revolutionary war hero he makes for a very competent spokesperson for Cuba. Cubans in Cuba really do revere him. But he does not rule Cuba. The National Assembly is where the seat of power resides. Ricardo Alarcon de Silva is the president of the Assembly (Cuba's parliament). Like most parliamentary systems (Canada, UK, etc) there are not direct elections to select the head of state or president/pm.


--

I'm tired and off to bed now. I'll pick up the replies and insults and accusations of being a commie/Castro lover later.

Gotta hurricane to prepare for here in Miami.

[Judi Lynn]

120. Mika, good luck with this storm. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

112. I've looked through the posts and have seen some topics raised again

which keep coming up whenever someone who hasn't bothered to read, or look for the answers personally, the way the rest of us must, raises them.

You'll find that these topics usually don't get rehashed a lot in LBN, as many of those posters tend to be very familiar with US relations with Latin America, and the subject has been covered repeatedly, over a few years well enough that everyone has come to his or her own conclusions.

A lot of people try to get this topic going in G.D. who don't participate when it comes up in LBN. Don't know the reason for that.

Here are some sources for a few of the right-wing charges posted.

First, this is an excerpt from a book written in 2002, before _Bush had done his worst (to date) on US/Cuba travel, trade, etc.:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or a contrarevolutionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiles who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but choose to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a not to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriates who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.

Page xviii, preface
Cuba Confidential
Ann Louise Bardach
Former New York Times, Vanity Fair writer
Currently Newsweek International

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This would tell you that until _Bush slammed the door for more frequent travel by Cuban "exiles" back and forth to Cuba, it was VERY COMMON for exiles, the same ones we've been told are shaking in their boots in fear of the terrifying, baby-eating dictator so hard, they've been going to Cuba on vacation until _Bush cancelled all that for them.

[Judi Lynn]

115. Here's information on Kennedy's actions trying to create a bond with Cuba

right before he was murdered:

Kennedy Sought Dialogue with Cuba

INITIATIVE WITH CASTRO ABORTED BY ASSASSINATION,
DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS SHOW

Oval Office Tape Reveals Strategy to hold clandestine Meeting in Havana; Documents record role of ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard as secret intermediary in Rapprochement effort

Posted - November 24, 2003

Washington D.C. - On the 40th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the eve of the broadcast of a new documentary film on Kennedy and Castro, the National Security Archive today posted an audio tape of the President and his national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy, discussing the possibility of a secret meeting in Havana with Castro. The tape, dated only seventeen days before Kennedy was shot in Dallas, records a briefing from Bundy on Castro's invitation to a U.S. official at the United Nations, William Attwood, to come to Havana for secret talks on improving relations with Washington. The tape captures President Kennedy's approval if official U.S. involvement could be plausibly denied.

The possibility of a meeting in Havana evolved from a shift in the President's thinking on the possibility of what declassified White House records called "an accommodation with Castro" in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Proposals from Bundy's office in the spring of 1963 called for pursuing "the sweet approach…enticing Castro over to us," as a potentially more successful policy than CIA covert efforts to overthrow his regime. Top Secret White House memos record Kennedy's position that "we should start thinking along more flexible lines" and that "the president, himself, is very interested in ." Castro, too, appeared interested. In a May 1963 ABC News special on Cuba, Castro told correspondent Lisa Howard that he considered a rapprochement with Washington "possible if the United States government wishes it. In that case," he said, "we would be agreed to seek and find a basis" for improved relations.

The untold story of the Kennedy-Castro effort to seek an accommodation is the subject of a new documentary film, KENNEDY AND CASTRO: THE SECRET HISTORY, broadcast on the Discovery/Times cable channel on November 25 at 8pm. The documentary film, which focuses on Ms. Howard's role as a secret intermediary in the effort toward dialogue, was based on an article -- "JFK and Castro: The Secret Quest for Accommodation" -- written by Archive Senior Analyst Peter Kornbluh in the magazine, Cigar Aficionado. Kornbluh served as consulting producer and provided key declassified documents that are highlighted in the film. "The documents show that JFK clearly wanted to change the framework of hostile U.S. relations with Cuba," according to Kornbluh. "His assassination, at the very moment this initiative was coming to fruition, leaves a major 'what if' in the ensuing history of the U.S. conflict with Cuba."



Among the key documents relevant to this history:

• Office audio tape, November 5, 1963. The tape records a conversation between the President and McGeorge Bundy regarding Castro's invitation to William Attwood, a deputy to UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson, to come to Cuba for secret talks. The President responds that Attwood should be taken off the U.S. payroll prior to such a meeting so that the White House can plausibly deny that any official talks have taken place if the meeting leaks to the press.
  
• House memorandum, Top Secret, "Mr. Donovan's Trip to Cuba," March 4, 1963. This document records President Kennedy's interest in negotiations with Castro and his instructions to his staff to "start thinking along more flexible lines" on conditions for a dialogue with Cuba.
  
• House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Policy," April 11, 1963. A detailed options paper from Gordon Chase, the Latin America specialist on the National Security Council, to McGeorge Bundy recommending "looking seriously at the other side of the coin-quietly enticing Castro over to us."
  
• briefing paper, Secret, "Interview of U.S. Newswoman with Fidel Castro Indicating Possible Interest in Rapprochement with the United States," May 1, 1963. A debriefing of Lisa Howard by CIA deputy director Richard Helms, regarding her ABC news interview with Castro and her opinion that he is "ready to discuss rapprochement." The document contains a notation, "Psaw," meaning President Kennedy read the report on Howard and Castro.
  
• .S. UN Mission memorandum, Secret, Chronology of events leading up Castro invitation to receive a U.S. official for talks in Cuba, November 8, 22, 1963. This chronology was written by William Attwood and records the evolution of the initiative set in motion by Lisa Howard for a dialogue with Cuba. The document describes the party at Howard's Manhattan apartment on September 23, 1963, where Attwood met with Cuban UN Ambassador Carlos Lechuga to discuss the potential for formal talks to improve relations. In an addendum, Attwood adds information on communications, using the Howard home as a base, leading up to the day the President was shot in Dallas.
  
• White House memorandum, Secret, November 12, 1963. McGeorge Bundy reports to William Attwood on Kennedy's opinion of the viability of a secret meeting with Havana. The president prefers that the meeting take place in New York at the UN where it will be less likely to be leaked to the press.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Approach to Castro," November 19, 1963. A memo from Gordon Chase to McGeorge Bundy updating him on the status of arrangements for a secret meeting with the Cubans.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Item of Presidential Interest," November 25, 1963. A strategy memo from Gordon Chase to McGeorge Bundy assessing the problems and potential for pursuing the secret talks with Castro in the aftermath of Kennedy's assassination.
  
• Message from Fidel Castro to Lyndon Johnson, "Verbal Message given to Miss Lisa Howard of ABC News on February 12, 1964, in Havana, Cuba." A private message carried by Howard to the White House in which Castro states that he would like the talks started with Kennedy to continue: "I seriously hope (and I cannot stress this too strongly) that Cuba and the United States can eventually sit down in an atmosphere of good will and of mutual respect and negotiate our differences."
  
• United Nations memorandum, Top Secret, from Adlai Stevenson to President Johnson, June 16, 1964. Stevenson sends the "verbal message" given to Lisa Howard to Johnson with a cover memo briefing him on the dialogue started under Kennedy and suggesting consideration of resumption of talks "on a low enough level to avoid any possible embarrassment."
  
• House memorandum, Top Secret, "Adlai Stevenson and Lisa Howard," July 7, 1964. Gordon Chase reports to Bundy on his concerns that Howard's role as an intermediary has now escalated through her contact with Stevenson at the United Nations and the fact that a message has been sent back through her to Castro from the White House. Chase recommends trying "to remove Lisa from direct participation in the business of passing messages," and using Cuban Ambassador to the UN, Carlos Lechuga, instead.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/

[Judi Lynn]

116. Concerning the state of Cuba's treatment of AIDS patients

which has been praised around the world. I've read articles by American doctors concerning their level of care, as well:

The Global Fund will provide Cuba with a total of 26.1 million dollars over the 2005-2008 period, reported Raffaella Garutti of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), who is responsible for overseeing the project's execution.

Garutti told IPS that the Cuban initiative is considered the best "of all the projects supported by the Fund in 133 countries."

She also praised the "political will" to fight the epidemic shown by the Cuban government.

The actions undertaken over recent years with the help of financing from the Global Fund include the publication of pamphlets on nutrition and legal issues, training for health care workers and peer counsellors, TV-based public awareness campaigns, the promotion and free distribution of condoms, and the creation of self-help groups.

"We will continue to emphasise training, with a special focus on women, because of their particular vulnerability, and will also keep working to ensure that people stick to their treatment programmes, because of the stigma felt by those who take antiretroviral drugs," said Fernández.

Antiretroviral therapy, which slows down the body's reproduction of HIV, thereby extending the life expectancy of people infected with the virus, can cause serious side effects and demands great personal discipline on the part of those receiving it.

The Cuban government provides antiretroviral drugs free of charge to all those who require them. As of Apr. 26, there were 1,873 people in Cuba receiving antiretroviral therapy, according to official figures.
(snip/...)

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=30006

[Judi Lynn]

118. Concerning other immigrants who have been "fleeing" to America

Posted 8/19/2005 12:42 AM

Illegals dying at record rate in Arizona desert
By Dennis Wagner, USA TODAY
SELLS, Ariz. — The smell of death floated on a sweltering August breeze near the Mexican border, emanating from an immigrant's corpse.

He had expired beneath a mesquite tree on the Tohono O'odham Indian nation 45 miles southwest of Tucson, apparently trying to escape the Sonoran sun, trying to get to America.

John Doe No. 130.

That's the name and number given to him by authorities in a year when Arizona has set new records for deaths among undocumented immigrants along the state's 389-mile border with Mexico.

With about six weeks remaining in the Border Patrol's fiscal year — and more Border Patrol agents patrolling than ever — 201 men, women and children have succumbed to the elements in Arizona.
(snip/...)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-19-border-deaths_x.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This article discusses the immigrants dying in the desert in ARIZONA, without going into the ones who die in California, New Mexico, and Texas.

From whom are THEY fleeing?

This article of course doesn't mention the Caribbean migration, of Haitians and Dominicans who "flee" to Cuba, and to Puerto Rico, even though the trip can mean from 700 to 900 miles in similar "rickety boats," only the Haitians usually come in large numbers, as many as they can fit onto their poor boats.

ALL other immigrants are rounded up, thrown in jail, and are deported. Cubans receive U.S. taxpayer-funded Section 8 housing, foodstamps, welfare, social security, instant legal status, financial assistance for education, etc., etc., etc.

Can you BEGIN TO IMAGINE how many immigrants we'd be getting if these same political inducements, this smorgasbord of benefits, were offered to people from OTHER COUNTRIES?

[Judi Lynn]

122. Concerning the compensation which Cuba offered to U.S. interests

After the revolution, In May 17 of 1959, the new Cuban government enacted the first Agrarian Reform Law, "putting a limit on land holdings and expropriating the remainder with compensation offered in 20-year fixed-term government bonds paying an annual interest rate of 4.5 percent" (Franklin 1997, 21). It was to go into effect on June 3rd. According to Franklin, the "basis for compensation is the value of the land as assessed for taxes." This was typically an assessment that had for decades under-valued the land in order to keep taxes low. Foreigners, many of the American, owned 75 percent of Cuba’s arable land, including five U.S. sugar companies that owned or controlled more than two million acres had benefited from these low taxes for decades. The new law offered them compensation that was considerably lower than the true value of their land, but it reflected the rules they had played in the prior self-serving assessments.

The new law limited land ownership to 1,000 acres, with an exception of up to 3,333 acres for land used for livestock, sugar, or rice production. The expropriated land, combined with land already owned by the state, was transferred to cooperatives or distributed free of charge in "Vital Minimum" (VM) tracts to "any agricultural worker with less than a VM tract (66 acres of unirrigated fertile land for a family of five)" (21). The effects of the agrarian reform were enormous in their consequences. "After 1959, about three-quarters of Cuba’s agricultural land was confiscated from private landowners and converted into vast, Soviet-style farms," which were to dominate the countryside until the early 1990s (Hatchwell and Calder 2000, 44).

The large American landholders (e.g., United Fruit Company) and the U.S. government protested against the Agrarian Reform Law, especially against the terms of compensation. Franklin (1997) writes: "U.S. landowners object to Cuba’s basis for compensation because it is based on the assessment rates, which have not been adjusted to current land value for 30 to 40 years (thus allowing the owners to pay very low taxes)." At the same time, the new Cuban government under Fidel Castro was able to negotiate compensation agreements "with property owners of Britain, Canada, France, Italy, Mexico, Spain, and Sweden" (22).
(snip/...)

http://www.ruralaction.org/readjan2002.html

The U.S. government initially supported the Cuban Revolution, formally recognizing the new government of Fidel Castro on January 7, 1959, after Batista fled on January 1. However, relations rapidly deteriorated when the new Cuban government passed the first Agrarian Reform Law to begin expropriation of large-scale (largely American-owned) land holdings on May 17, 1959. The compensation offered (based on 20-year bonds at 4.5% interest for the tax-assessed value) was seen as inadequate, and was rejected by American interests.
(snip/...)

http://www.answers.com/topic/united-states-embargo-against-cuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

......Among the issues the Cuban premier addressed was the potential for better relations with Washington. He stated that a rapprochement was "possible the United States government wishes it. In that case we would be agreed to seek and find the basis" for normalizing relations. A few months later, in a cover story, "Castro's Overture," in the liberal journal War/Peace Report, Howard wrote that in eight hours of private conversations Castro had been "even more emphatic about his desire for negotiations with the United States":

In our conversations he made it quite clear that he was ready to discuss: the Soviet personnel and military hardware on Cuban soil; compensation for expropriated American lands and investments; the question of Cuba as a base for Communist subversion throughout the Hemisphere.

In her article, Howard urged the Kennedy administration to "send an American government official on a quiet mission to Havana to hear what Castro has to say." A country as powerful as the United States, she concluded, "has nothing to lose at a bargaining table with Fidel Castro."
(snip/...)

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,320,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Cuba's first message of potential reconciliation actually came after the Bay of Pigs invasion. In August 1961, Che Guevara held an unscheduled meeting with White House aide Richard Goodwin in Punta del Este, Uruguay, and proposed a modus vivendi between Washington and Havana. This now famous meeting constituted the first high-level contact with Castro's government after the break in diplomatic relations in January 1961. In a secret August 22 memo for the president, Goodwin reported that the conversation was "free of propaganda and bombast." Among other proposals, Guevara said that Cuba was willing to pay for expropriated U.S. properties in trade, and was willing to discuss its revolutionary operations in other nations. Goodwin recommended "continuing the below ground dialogue Che has begun," and even assigned the CIA to come up with "a precise, covert procedure" for sustaining those communications. Until negotiations involving New York lawyer James Donovan more than a year later, however, no further talks took place.
(snip)

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,320,00.html

On edit:

Here is the memo from Richard Goodwin concerning the meeting with Che Guevara:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/bayofpigs/19610822.pdf

[Judi Lynn]

124. Steve, thanks for your sincere thread. Very interesting. n/t

[steve2470]

135. You're welcome. I'm always open to the truth nt

[blurp]

125. This might be a little late, but check this link out.

http://www.therealcuba.com/

It's eye-opening.

[Judi Lynn]

129. Here's a site I just saw looking for an image of the statue

of Mother Theresa in Cuba:

http://www.faithfuldeliveries.com/cubapics.htm

It looks like travel photos from a family, or something, taken in Cuba.

Here's the statue (I've seen other photos, one really good photo for which I've been looking):



Here's another:

[SoCalDem]

133. The Truth about Castro (half-Cuban here)

Batista treated the common people poorly and was "in-bed" with the US government/mobsters/ you-name-it..

He finally got his comeuppance via a popular uprising..Castro was their leader.. The US actually liked (or pretended to like Castro at first). It did not take long for the US to realize that Castro would not "playball" with them like Batista did..

The locals in Cuba & the new government were pissed that the US helped Batista after the revolution.. The US immediately set out to destabilize the Castro regime, in hopes that they could help "restore a normal government".. The Castro government had support of all but the elite (sadly my family fit into that category, and fled with nothing)..

The Cuba of today that some oldsters still long to see again is NOTHING like the Cuba they left.. The beaches are there, the beautiful old buildings are there (in skeletal form mostly), but the people have changed. The "dark" Cubans who used to "serve" the Euro-Cubans are now most of the population. They never had muchm, so they don't sweat the fact that their lives are not grand.

They have medical care...good care
They have education for themselves and their kids
They have jobs
They have a roof over their heads.

It is not high-style living like the EuroCubans of the elite once had, but for the ones who are there now, it's ok.

There is corruption in Cuba..there always was..and there always will be (like almost any place on earth)

but

the bulk of the population are doing just fine. As in any dictatorship, the ones who speak out are punished (not much different here)..Most people manage to live their lives and steer clear of the headbutting politics.

There are worse places to live than Cuba...but the fact is.. Cuba 2005, is not (and never will be again) Cuba of the 1950's.


As the older Cuban expats die off, there will be less angst about Cuba. There are TONS of people (Cubans) who only know Cuba by what their grandparents told them...and from the faded old black&white photos that made it out of the country with them.

THEIR Cuba was not much different from the Glory Days of any British Empire posting in the Far East or India or the Caribbean.. White priviledged people living in ignorance of the poverty around them...UNTIL..... well we know the rest

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. I'm not as much of a total Castro fan as Mika is, but the U.S. attitude

toward him is ridiculous. It's all about keeping the hardcore Florida exiles happy.

My church has sent two delegations to its sister parish in Cuba within the past year. While I would have loved to have gone, I work free-lance, and the cash flow problems were insurmountable. Unfortunately, the church's "license" from the U.S. government expired after the last trip, so who knows when I'll get to go.

Nevertheless, the people I have talked to all referred to the trip as an amazing experience. They said that both the anti-Castro and pro-Castro people had their preconceptions shaken, and that the Cuban people were absolutely wonderful.

My church has invited the priest from the Cuban church to come visit. There is no problem on the Cuban side about him leaving the country--the problem is entirely on the U.S. side. So far, he hasn't been able to get a visitor's visa.

On the matter of "people risking their lives to come here," the same is true of Haiti, which by all reckonings is the most wretchedly poor country in the Western Hemisphere and torn by political violence. A Cuban who lands in Florida in a makeshift raft gets automatic benefits. A Haitian who lands in Florida in a makeshift raft gets automatic jail and deportation.

Back in the days when I still subscribed to The Economist, they had an article that stated (typically) that Cuba could be really prosperous if it allowed "free" trade and opened its borders to multinational corporations.

A reader wrote back the next week: "You mean like Haiti and Honduras have prospered?"

[The Night Owl]

141. All you need to know about Cuba...

Are the people of Cuba free to leave it if they so choose? Why, no, they aren't.

So, other than the fact that Cuba is essentially a landmass being used as a gigantic prison, what more does one need to know about Cuba?

[Minstrel Boy]

146. Cubans travel, and Cuban doctors serve all over the world.

We even have Cuban doctors in Canada, serving in rural communities. And guess what? They even return to Cuba when their work is done.


"I forgot to mention that cubans can travel.it is a myth that they are not allowed to leave the island. i met alot of cubans who have pasports and travel all over. mostly europe. the u.s. doesn't let many cubans travel there unless they are planning on staying. one of my cuban got to travel to the u.s. and visit some of his family. he traveld the east coast and then down to miami. and when he got there he said that many of the cuban americans were furious with him that he was going back to cuba. they denounced him as an agent of castros. he found it pretty hilarious.

"also he was sad when he seen all the technology the states has that we just waste on video games, instead of using it to expand educational opportunities and then said that if cuba had all the technology that the 'developed' world has that 'cuba would show the world how to use it.'"
http://marccooper.typepad.com/marccooper/2005/07/not_again.html#comment-7599400

[The Night Owl]

154. I need a little bit more than anecdotal evidence to convince me...

I need a little bit more than anecdotal evidence to convince me that the people of Cuba are free to leave Cuba. I mean, come on.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

143. Comparing a 3rd world country to the USA is stupid.

Compare Cuba to it's neighbors in almost every area and Cuba comes out ahead. Guatamala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, etc.

[CubsFan1982]

150. Still defending a Communist dictatorship, I see.

The hypocrisy doesn't end here, evidently.

[AuntPatsy]

153. (sigh) There has to be a line in the sand that no matter how

one wants so hard to cross it in an effort to destroy another's credibility we just shouldn't cross it...

[mosin]

165. Nope

Sadly, being an apologist for a repressive communist dictatorship seems to be popular on here.

[barb162]

152. does one party, one person rule for 40 years indicate anything?

[hunter]

162. He has nukes.

Don't rattle the cage too much.

[ronnykmarshall]

163. Who wants the drumstick?

This thread is flaming enought to roast a 25 pound turkey!!

[Lilith Velkor]

166. It's fabulous!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Castro-sidewalk-east.jpg

As for Fidel, in some ways he's alright, in others he's a bastard. Kinda like most leaders of nation states.

[arwalden]

168. He Would Not Allow Cuban Liberal's Grandmother To Leave...

... THE MONSTER!!

[Moderator]

170. Locking

This discussion has run its course.

DU Moderator