...is this the end for homeopathy?

[beam me up scottie]

As a fourth study says it's no better than a placebo, is this the end for homeopathy?

Sarah Boseley, health editor
Friday August 26, 2005
The Guardian

Homeopathy, favoured medical remedy of the royal family for generations and hugely popular in the UK, has an effect but only in the mind, according to a major study published in a leading medical journal today.

The conclusions of the Lancet analysis are a body blow for proponents of homeopathy, which has been around for 250 years and has attained cult-like status among its aficionados.

Swiss scientists compared the results of more than 100 trials of homeopathic medicines with the same number of trials of conventional medicines in a whole range of medical conditions, from respiratory infections to surgery. They found that homeopathy had no more than a placebo effect.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,11381,1556831,00.html

[SidDithers]

1. Too bad yesterday's Prince Charles thread got locked...

this would have made an interesting addition to that discussion.

Good find.

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

5. Credit goes to Moggie!

I probably would have missed it.

[MrBenchley]

2. Alas, as Barnum knew...

There are suckers born every minute...

[Tesha]

60. Homeopathy is faith-baised. There's no arguing with "faith"...

Homeopathy is faith-baised. And as we know, there's no arguing with
"faith", so I guess that means homeopathy will be around as long as
there are credulous people around.

Tesha

[MrBenchley]

64. Exactly so....

Instead of actually thinking, we can sit around smugly chanting "scientists don't know everything."

[arwalden]

144. Or...

... "what's the harm? It works for "some" people."

and

... "they just don't want you to know the truth. You know homeopathy works because as you can see, they are trying to silence homeopaths. What are they afraid of? Losing their big-pharma profits, that's what!"

[MrBenchley]

153. Yup....

"They laughed at Galileo and Einstein too...."

[Orsino]

275. The harm lies in...

...the money siphoned out of the ignorant based on lies, and in the lack of real medical treatment for the victims.

[Delphinus]

3. Well,

I respectfully disagree. Homeopathy was around before the AMA came into effect and, thankfully, other countries use it and use it well.

I prefer to treat myself homeopathically and herbally. If it's all in my head, cool. :) I've got a pretty good head.

[Ripley]

12. I respectfully disagree as well.

While there are plenty of snakeoil salesmen in the world (coral calcium for one), most of the homeopathic herbs and other natural remedies have been used for centuries. In fact you might notice that pharmaceuticals often are synthesized copies of natural elements.

Why does everything have to be so black and white with some people? I certainly wouldn't go to the health food store alone if I had cancer, but I also would try every damn homeopathic treatment in the book before I had chemotherapy. I've watched a few people die horribly from that shit.

[K-W]

14. Homeopathy is not herbal remedies.

Homeopathy is the process by which an ingredient is dilluted with water to rediculous levels under the theory that the ingredient will effect the water making it all medically active.

Understanding that something doesnt work isnt black and white thinking.

[Ripley]

16. Okay, I was under the impression it included all alternative medicine

and treatments. thanks for exlaining the distinction.

[K-W]

18. Its become a bit of a buzzword so its confusing.

And alot of products that arent actually homeopathic put homeopathic on thier labels to appeal to people who are curious but dont know exactly what it is.

[etherealtruth]

32. I'm with you ...

Other than placebo effect (which is fine) there isn't even a possibility of therapeutic effect ...

[electropop]

45. May as well treat illness with

shadows on the wall.

[tigereye]

111. acutally the placebo effect can be quite powerful

[MsTryska]

34. actually.....not exactly....

homeopathy consists of taking a compound that full-strength causes specific symptoms and diluting it with alcohol and some water on the idea that minute doses will actually stop those same symptoms when they are caused by a different issue.


ie if poison ivy causes rashes, if you use a homeopathic compound of diluted poison ivy it will heal a rash you may have.


here's a better expalantion:

http://www.healthynewage.com/what-is-homeopathy.htm


as for whether homeopathy works or not - i personally have never tried it, but i do have a cat who's pooper is broken, and 6 pellets of nux vomica given over 3 days, once every couple months is the only thing that makes him poop on any sort of regular process.


it can't be the sugar in it because there's no more sugar in it than in the fortune cookies and sugar cookie bits he likes.


this is also a cat who is still constipated when given almost human doses of natural laxatives.


given the choice of shoving a horse-sized suppository up his ass, or giving him 2 homoepathic pellets a day for 3 days every 60 days - i'll choose the latter.

[K-W]

38. Well, it is both. The dillution is what makes it homeopathy.

I didnt want to get too specific, but yes, very often it is what you describe.

[MsTryska]

41. it's ALWAYS as i describe.....

if it isn't it's not considered homeopathic - you have to use alcohol to extract what you need out of your source material - it's the same principle as making tinctures or colognes or essences for baking or whatever.


alcohol is the carrier - and that's what's used to dilute - water is added to weaken the alcohol after the fact.


there's a very specific process for formulating homeopathic remedies. and herbals remedies for that matter.

[K-W]

44. Well what word do you use to describe

the process by which an active ingredient is dilluted to homeopathic levels but with the expectation of similar rather than opposite effects?

[MsTryska]

51. with all due respect....

why would you dilute to a Homeopathic (meaning like treats like - ie: that which creates a sepcific symptom will treat that same symptom in minute doses)measure, if all you want is to use the ingredient to cause a specific symptom in the first place?


I personally would call that "making an infusion" and i wouldn't take to the parts per hundred or more dilution anyone.

[K-W]

53. The same reason youd want to dillute a poison.

Somebody convinced you it will help you.

[MsTryska]

56. i'm not following your logic at all.

maybe when you've read up on the subject you and i can discuss this again.


(deja vu)

[K-W]

61. All sorts of beliefs in the magical power of dillution are illogical. EOM

[MsTryska]

70. whatever you say homeslice. nt

nt

[K-W]

76. No, whatever the facts say. EOM

[MsTryska]

77. what you say

and what facts say often seem to be in direct opposition.




so i'll agree with you.

[Modem Butterfly]

89. Wow, that doesn't even make any sense

People can be appallingly dense...

[Dora]

97. Vaccinations work on a similar principle, right?

And nobody bashes vaccinations, though back in the day I'm sure they were greeted with as much disdain and mockery.

[beam me up scottie]

105. Wrong! See post #62. n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

106. No they don't

Vaccinations take dead or severely weakened pieces of the original virus to PREVENT you from getting the virus to begin with. Once you have the virus, vaccinations won't help.

[K8-EEE]

114. I'd Rather Have The Placebo Effect Than The VIOXX Effect!

I do think that is why prayer is powerful also -- when you put positive hopeful thoughts in your head like "this stuff will heal me" or "God will heal me" or whatever, that in itself can turn on something in your body.

[kestrel91316]

292. Or if your cat hasn't been to a GOOD vet for proper diagnosis and

treatment, maybe all it needs is diet modification, a little lactulose, and maybe some cisapride for good measure. Have you had kitty evaluated for megacolon yet?

[jayctravis]

49. I've read that homeopathy involves diluting substances...

that would be toxic in large doses to "jumpstart" certain systems in the body which take care of the symptoms.

[MsTryska]

55. yeah.....i guess in allopathic terms....

the closest analogy would be a vaccine - another case of like cures like in a way.


Vaccines are small doses of dead pathogen that are meant to stimulate an immunological response and thereby protect the body when exposed to live pathogen.

[beam me up scottie]

62. Not even close.

Many proponents claim that homeopathic products resemble vaccines because both provide a small stimulus that triggers an immune response. This comparison is not valid. The amounts of active ingredients in vaccines are much greater and can be measured. Moreover, immunizations produce antibodies whose concentration in the blood can be measured, but high-dilution homeopathic products produce no measurable response. In addition, vaccines are used preventively, not for curing symptoms.

http://www.alternativehealth.co.nz/anti/homeopathy.htm

[MsTryska]

73. well now this is why i said....

the "closest" analogy would be "similar to"


there is no true correlation in western science.

[Beetwasher]

79. "...there is no true correlation in western science."

This thing you call "Science", it scares and confuses me. Me like'm magic water! Make me strong! Like Hulk!

[jayctravis]

259. Well...yes, a vaccine has measurable results...

But the body has many systems for fighting off any sort of problems it has. If a microdose of a toxin or poison that is not fatal would cause the body to react to neutralize that poison is introduced, couldn't it also kill off other toxins that might not be concentrated enough to set off the reaction?

[MADem]

65. Yep, herbs are active ingredients

A lot of pharmaceutical drugs are just laboratory versions of herbs. Homeopathy takes the bad thing and dilutes it.

Homeopathy never worked for me, but herbs have done the trick.

[KittyWampus]

175. First, It's R-I-diculous. Second, You Know NOTHING About How It Works

so how can you have an informed opinion on the subject.

Water, as a matter of fact, is able to retain an imprint of substances distilled out of it.

This was proven by SEVERAL labs around the globe.

It has mistakenly become known as "Memory of Water".

[mccoyn]

178. Well, I'm not going to believe that without a source.

I hope you didn't either, which means you should have a source ready to prove me wrong. You do have a source right? You didn't just hear that and believe it did you?

In the mean time, I've got a bridge to sell you.

[slackmaster]

208. Let's see some cites to back up that claim

Water, as a matter of fact, is able to retain an imprint of substances distilled out of it.

According to Jacques Benveniste?

This was proven by SEVERAL labs around the globe.

Let's see some credible peer-reviewed papers.

[eallen]

58. When you buy a homeopathic remedy, there's none of the herb left.

Whatever the herb actually does is no evidence at all that the homeopathic preparation does anything at all. Foxglove is a potent herb. A little of it will stimulate the heart. Too much of it will kill you. A standard medicine in the cardiologist's pharmacopeia is extracted from it. But you could drink a homeopathic preparation of foxglove by the gallon, and suffer no ill effect. Because there is no foxglove that remains in the preparation.

Yeah, yeah, I know. The water molecules pick up the vibe of the foxglove, and carry over its beneficial effect, even more potent than from the plant itself, though miraculously without any risk of overdose or harm coming from it. That's the homeopathic theory.

[beam me up scottie]

66. Yep. The water "remembers" .

It's ridiculous.

[Solly Mack]

87. Please tell me people don't actually say that

Please

Pretty please



with sugar on top?

[beam me up scottie]

96. Yes, I'm afraid they do.

They claim it's "science".
It's heartbreaking.

[nashville_brook]

104. just yesterday there was a story about the UK approving alt med

for healthcare coverage.

here's my thing -- i'm a lot less likely to die from willow bark than i was from the Vioxx i was prescribed.

on the cancer thing -- i've worked "in" healthfood stores (as a cook, not a retail) and i can say plenty of people with cancer go there for other stuff. organics, etc.

my father-in-law (who thinks he's so damn cute) always says "why do the people in health food stores always look so sick."

well, because they ARE. they aren't getting the help they need from traditional healthcare b/c they don't have insurance and/or their therapies haven't worked.

traditional medicine has borrowed PLENTY from herbalists. you might even say they owe their existence and history to herbalists, b/c what is medicine, but a substance that someone found that has a positive effect on health.

[Modem Butterfly]

125. No, Prince Charles thinks it's a good idea...

and is planning on delivering a speech saying just that.

i'm a lot less likely to die from willow bark than i was from the Vioxx i was prescribed.

Yes, but why brew up some willow bark tea when you can just as easily take aspirin and know exactly how much medicine you're getting?

they aren't getting the help they need from traditional healthcare b/c they don't have insurance and/or their therapies haven't worked.

Desperate people will do desperate things. I have lupus, and people are always offering some kind of quack treatment or cure. In fact, years ago, homeopathy damn near killed me.

[Modem Butterfly]

13. And dowsing was around before modern sewage systems

I would still rather get my water from a pipe than a well, and I say that as someone who grew up drinking well water. Of course, we had to find ours the even older-fashioned way, by actually looking for it...

[Ripley]

15. From the report...

Acupuncture is thought to be among the best researched and most effective of complementary therapies. Hundreds of studies in recent decades have produced strong evidence that it works for some conditions.

Do you take Vioxx? Or any of the other hundreds of pharmaceuticals which have been marketed over the years to millions of people and killed thousands of people? I agree some people may be threatening their health by taking multiple vitamins in combinations that could result in a serious health risk.

Knowledge is a good thing. Blind acceptance of the AMA or the health food clerk is bad. I think homeopathy used as complimentary medicine has been proven to be preventative medicine. Most doctors in America agree.

[K-W]

17. "Most doctors in America agree."

Edit: I think this might be a confusion over terms.

[Ripley]

20. Yes it is.

You're saying the majority of doctors don't agree with taking vitamins to stay healthy? I'll try to find a link that says doctors do think alternatives used complimentary are the best way now.

[K-W]

26. Yes and no.

Doctors do perscribe vitamens, nutrition, even suppliments, but no, this is not alternative medicine. This is conventional medicine. It is supported by science and prescribed by proffessionals.

Certainly there have been times where doctors have unduely rejected non-pharmacutical treatments and this was a mistake and needs to be corrected and I am happy that doctors feel free to use the full range of effective treatments.

But this is a different issue entirely from whether or not there are alternatives to scientific medicine. Even though those who advocate treatments that dont actually work, attempt to cast themselves as the same as those who advocate a different approach to medicine that still respects the vital role of scientific analysis in any medical process.

[burythehatchet]

47. I wonder if anyone has done a study of how much money the

members of the AMA would stand to lose if Homeopathy, as well as acupuncture and other alternative therapies, were incorporated into treatment plans. Its amazing what crappy healthcare Americans receive and continue to swear by their doctors and pharma companies.

[Ripley]

59. I know.

They all take handfuls of meds that make them sicker than shit yet decry anyone who uses alternative forms of health care and aren't sick as Placebo freaks. Frankly, who cares? If it works, it works.

I am most definitely NOT against science and Western medicine. But why on Earth are people in their 30's taking beta blockers? Every person I know (except a few relatives) is on meds. They are convinced they need these drugs. Now, doesn't that tell you something when the more science and technology we have, the more sick people are becoming and the more drugs they take the worse they get?

[BigMcLargehuge]

63. certainly!

and further diluting the pool of effective healthcare in the US by infusing expensive quackery will certainly alleviate the problem...

:eyes:

[MsTryska]

78. what expensive quackery are you talking about?

Homeopathic meds are like 5 bucks per tube and the amount of pellets in a tube will last you several years.


how is that more expensive than a monthly refill on a 30 box of claritin-d?

[BigMcLargehuge]

85. I mean in the general sense...

You know why homeopathic meds are so cheap? Because tap water is cheap, so is corn starch, and nonfat dry milk...

But I meant more in the overall sense - Quackery such as:

Chiropractic
Therapeutic Touch
Chi/Ki therapies
Homoepathy
Acupuncture/Acupressure
psychic surgery

[crispini]

116. There are many reputable clinical studies

that show that acupuncture is a proven therapy for pain relief. Much better than heavy duty meds, too. Google "acupuncture pain relief study" to find out more.

[arwalden]

149. I Was Amused By...

... the acupuncture study where the accupuncturists were supposed to "treat" an ailment by putting the needles in the "wrong" spots.

The victims, uh, patients were unaware that the "wrong" points were being used... yet the success rate (among believers) was statistically the same as those believers who had the treatement using the "correct" points.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

[crispini]

173. Acupuncture isn't effective for every condition.

And I am not claiming that it is.

Your link is kinda long, so I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but if it's the one for post-operative nausea and vomiting, well, maybe that's one condition that is NOT effectively treated by acupuncture.

Here's another study that uses the SAME "fake acupuncture" technique and proves efficacy of acupuncture for lower back pain.

Manheimer says, “We wanted the studies for the analysis to meet the highest scientific standards. As a way to account for a possible placebo effect, we looked at many studies that used ‘sham acupuncture’ as a control group, where acupuncture needles were inserted only superficially or in the wrong place.”

The sham acupuncture studies were double-blinded, meaning neither the researchers nor the participants knew who was receiving the real or the sham treatment. When looking at those studies, the reviewers found the differences in pain ratings showed a significant difference between the real acupuncture and the sham acupuncture groups, indicating that the benefit was not just due to the placebo effect.

“From our analysis, the message for people with chronic low back pain is that acupuncture is a truly effective therapy that provides significant pain relief,” says Manheimer. “Patients with low back pain have many options for treatment including medication, chiropractic care, physical therapy and back exercises. However, these treatments do not always help, and scientific evidence indicates that they have only modest effectiveness.”

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/back_pain.html

[arwalden]

195. Sounds Like The Ben-Gay Effect.

<< "Acupuncture isn't effective for every condition." >>

Heh heh... the understatement of the year.

[crispini]

197. Well, (for example), Paxil isn't effective for every condition.

As a matter of fact you can say that about just every prescription drug or other conventional medical treatment out there, it's true of ALL medicines:

___ (fill in the blank)___ isn't effective for every condition.


You'll notice that the study I posted was by the University of Maryland Medican Center... not exactly way out of the mainstream there.

Have you been able to find any more studies about how acupuncture is ineffective, and what conditions were they studying? Or would you prefer to just be sarcastic and not say anything of substance?

[Beetwasher]

198. One Of The Big Problems W/ Testing The Efficacy of Acupuncture However

Is the claims about it's efficacy in the first place.

It's claimed that it's good for just about EVERYTHING! And frankly, that's just a bit too much to test for, and quite difficult to believe in the first place. So, unfortunately for it's proponents, it's going to take a while to sort out what effects exactly should be tested for, and if in fact it even HAS that purported effect.

Is it good for pain? What types? For allergies? For swelling? For internal conditions? Etc. What exactly IS it supposed to do?

[crispini]

201. Yeah, I don't believe that it's good for everything,

You're right, my Chinese doctor would say otherwise, but NOTHING is good for EVERYTHING. Except maybe eating right, that's good for everything.

That's why this UMM site is so cool, though, they're actually doing the studies on the different conditions. Here's a study on osteoarthritis of the knee:
http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/acupuncture.html

And also, if it's good for *symptom* relief, that's certainly something, isn't it? So far I've had my acupuncturist treat me for RSI's in hands and knees, as well as a neck injury for a car accident. When NOTHING makes you feel better, and then you go to the acupuncturist and walk out of there with some pain relief, that's a blessing in and of itself.

[Beetwasher]

202. Also Unfortunately Though, Symptom Relief is HIGHLY Subjective and Also

VERY sensitive to placebo effects.

Symptoms often are psychologically induced. It's a very tricky area to test.

[crispini]

215. Hm.

But isn't symptom relief via placebo (cost: cheap, possible side effects: none) much better than symptom relief via expensive, side-effect-causing, conventional drugs? :7

[Beetwasher]

217. It Depends

How much does acupuncture cost as opposed to some sugar pills...:shrug:

Honestly, it could turn out that acupuncture IS somewhat effective at relieving SOME symptoms. But is it better than aspirin? :shrug: That would also remain to be seen. You still have to pay for the acupuncture (or someone would).

[crispini]

218. Well, I was speaking in general, about placebo effect.

But as far as acupuncture specifically, it's been proven to work (better than placebo) on some things, see my earlier posts on the osteoarthritis and back pain studies done at the University of Maryland.

[Beetwasher]

222. That One Study Doesn't "Prove" That It's Better

It would have to be replicated.

[crispini]

223. It's not one study.

"Researchers from the University of Maryland School of Medicine and the Peninsula Medical School, Plymouth, U.K., analyzed dozens of studies from around the world on acupuncture for low back pain....

(snip)

The reviewers scoured the medical literature for all studies involving acupuncture for treating low back pain. To minimize bias, the American and British teams developed explicit criteria for evaluating the studies and did the evaluations independently. Their analysis included only randomized controlled trials, the gold standard study design for evaluating medical procedures."

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/back_pain.html

[Beetwasher]

224. Good!

Is it better than Ibuprofen? :shrug:

"For patients with acute back pain (defined as lasting less than three months), the reviewers found the data to be sparse and inconclusive. The evidence comparing acupuncture to other therapies was also inconclusive."

[crispini]

225. Well,

(WARNING: ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE HERE!) :P it certainly was better than ibuprofen for me! :7

Honestly, after having a repetitive stress injury bordering on carpal tunnel in my hands and forearms, and having sat at the computer with tears running down my cheeks because of the sharp shooting pains in my arms, and after having no relief with prescription drugs (including ibuprofen) from my MD and the neurologist he sent me to, and after going on workman's compensation (and almost having to stop work) and having the Dr. tell me that he was considering SURGERY -- well, when I went to the acupuncturist for the first time I would have tried anything. But damn if it didn't work! and in less than two weeks! after I'd been in HELL for months!

Now, of course, everyone will tell me that it's anecdotal evidence and therefore doesn't count, but it saved me from surgery. So, my experience, plus the studies I have found on the internet, tell me that it works.

[Beetwasher]

256. That's Cool!

I'm all for where the evidence is going. If it's heading in the direction that suggest that acupuncture has some effect, and the studies you posted suggest maybe it is, I think that's terrific. But there's still a lot of work to be done figuring out exactly what the effect is, IOW, is just good for pain mangement? Is it more effective than other treatments? Etc. But these studies look promising. Heck, if we can figure out how it works, maybe it can be augmented to be even more powerful and effective.

I don't and never have put acupuncture in the same category as homeopathy, just for the record. Homeopathy just plain does not work, at least according to the vast majority of evidence.

BTW, thanks for the links to the research, I was not aware of these developments!

[arwalden]

219. We've Done This Already

<< You'll notice that the study I posted was by the University of Maryland Medican Center... not exactly way out of the mainstream there. >>

The fact that a "test" or "study" is performed by, or AT a university does not automatically give the study any more credibility. Why haven't the results of this study been duplicated? Where's the peer review. Was the study DOUBLE-blind or not?

When all is said and done, if these treatments are so efficacious, why isn't it MAINSTREAM? Why isn't EVERY doctor doing these things that are supposedly so effective?

Oh wait... don't tell me... kickbacks from big-pharma, right? :eyes:

<< Or would you prefer to just be sarcastic and not say anything of substance? >>

I enjoy being sarcastic. It's a very effective way of conveying my feelings on the subject without having to waste words. Clearly my message was understood by you, so obviously it's working just as I intended. -- Learn to cope.

Not say anything of substance? So is that the first volley to signal your string of ad hominem personal attacks? Here we go again! :eyes:

[crispini]

228. Doesn't ANYBODY read my freakin' links?

THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE STUDY. :mad:

“For people with chronic low back pain, this analysis shows that acupuncture is clearly effective in providing considerable pain relief,” says Eric Manheimer, study author and director of database and evaluation for the University of Maryland Center for Integrative Medicine. “The research also showed that acupuncture provided true pain relief. The benefit was not just due to the placebo effect.”

The reviewers scoured the medical literature for all studies involving acupuncture for treating low back pain. To minimize bias, the American and British teams developed explicit criteria for evaluating the studies and did the evaluations independently. Their analysis included only randomized controlled trials, the gold standard study design for evaluating medical procedures.

....
Manheimer says, “We wanted the studies for the analysis to meet the highest scientific standards. As a way to account for a possible placebo effect, we looked at many studies that used ‘sham acupuncture’ as a control group, where acupuncture needles were inserted only superficially or in the wrong place.”

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/back_pain.html

And, as far as the use of sarcasm as a rhetorical device, I'm afraid all it did was convince me that you did not read my link. Which, as a matter of fact, you did not. So, my response to your comparison of acupuncture to Ben Gay truly was not an ad hominum attack, because your response did not contribute anything effective to the conversation. If you had in fact read the link and come up with a counter-study, specifically around the area of back pain, then that would have been something of substance.

And, to answer your question about why acupuncture is not "mainstream," my answer is that it IS. A survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation and Health Research and Educational Trust found that: "47 percent of all employers surveyed offered acupuncture as a covered health benefit, up from 33 percent in 2002."

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/archives2005/jan/01kaisersurvey.html

Why isn't every doctor doing acupuncture? Because it's a different skill set.

[arwalden]

235. Your Reply....

<< And, as far as the use of sarcasm as a rhetorical device, I'm afraid all it did was convince me that you did not read my link. >>

I was already being sarcastic in post 149 *before* you gave me the link.

<< Which, as a matter of fact, you did not. >>

You fancy yourself a mind-reader too?

<< So, my response to your comparison of acupuncture to Ben Gay truly was not an ad hominum attack, because your response did not contribute anything effective to the conversation. >>

You say that only because my comments are contrary to your magical beliefs. Do you not know HOW Ben-Gay works?

<< If you had in fact read the link and come up with a counter-study, specifically around the area of back pain, then that would have been something of substance. >>

Oh please... Get a grip. I'm not here to entertain your vanity demands of me.

<< And, to answer your question about why acupuncture is not "mainstream," my answer is that it IS. >>

No it's not. It's FRINGE. It's WHACK! It's woo-woo. It's magic!

<< A survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation and Health Research and Educational Trust found that: "47 percent of all employers surveyed offered acupuncture as a covered health benefit, up from 33 percent in 2002." >>

That's NOT proof of something's efficacy. It's only proof that employers are kowtowing to the demands of their magical thinking employees. They want to be "cool" and trendy.

<< Why isn't every doctor doing acupuncture? Because it's a different skill set. >>

Pardon me. I concede that in my haste to provide you with a timely reply, I could have phrased my question better. I'm confident that you could figure out what I meant... even though a literal translation suits your interests better, I'm not surprised that you choose to harp on such a minor point. So I'll indulge you and rephrase to ask again: Why doesn't every respectable mainstream physician RECOMMEND acupuncture?

Wait... I know the answer already... because it's quackery.

[crispini]

300. Oh, yawn.

I am interested in having a real conversation about this. I've posted links to several interesting, well-thought out studies. You've posted one link, and simply keep asserting that this is "quackery." I know you haven't bothered to look at my links, because you haven't said anything about them. I just think it's kind of sad that you have put all alternative medicine in the basket of "quackery." I will concur that some of it very well may be, and I'm willing to say in light of the latest Lancet study that homeopathy might be as well, but from my reading on the internet, I think acupuncture may have some legitmate uses. I am perfectly willing to DISCUSS this rationally, but apparently you just want to bait me and act like an asshole.

Edited to add: Apparently the NIH doesn't consider it "quackery."

There is sufficient evidence of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value.

National Institutes of Health, Consensus Development Conference Statement

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm

[sunnystarr]

123. Oh please ...

Chiropractic?? One of my friends (now deceased) was a prominent chiropractor who utilized the Palmer method. Among his patients were prominent doctors as well as interns and residents from the areas hospitals. They couldn't afford to be out of commission and put into braces or lie in hospital beds. So he treated them and they walked back to their cars out of pain and went back to work.

I was around to meet and see many of them over the years.

While it's true that there are chiropractors who will have you come back week after week for treatments to pad their incomes, there are also surgeons who perform needless surgeries, doctors who prescribe needless medications, etc. and people dying from infections in contracted in hospitals. There are plastic surgeons operating on people with little or no experience and a lot of people deformed at their inept hands.

So if we were to use that criteria then we'd all be avoiding doctors and hospitals.

[beam me up scottie]

124. How many lives have chiropractors saved?

And then tell me how many were saved by medical science.

I'll wait here.

"Oh please..." yourself.

[sunnystarr]

241. It's not a chiropractors job to save lives

Plus they never claim to. They keep people walking and out of pain. They release muscle spasms and get the body back in alignment.

Although there is much more to it concerning the balanced flow of current in the nervous system. When there are spasms or pressure that inhibits the flow of current then the area of the body that are fed by tha current can be inhibited and eventually compromised. I suppose if that involved a vital organ then they could indirectly extend life.

A chiropractor can place you on the table and check out your leg length. If your heels don't line up they know how and where to treat you by applying pressure to various areas, checking the leg length until after the right area has been applied, at which time the heels line up perfectly. Then the chiropractor knows exactly where treatment is needed.

Sometimes the neck especially has to be manipulated to regain proper alignement.

I've watched the process and seen the results.

[WhiteTara]

278. I don't know about saving lives, but

chiropractic saved me from paralysis and surgery. I know it is only anecdotal, but I am walking proof that chiropractic has a place in the healing arts.

[SOS]

281. "Saved by medical science"

Except for the 225,000 killed every year.

"The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness."

[BigMcLargehuge]

129. The entire basis of Chiropractic is that subtle curves in the spine

are the cause of all human illness, and that by manipulating the spine to reach a described "ideal" (and thus remove the subluxations) will cure that diseases that originate there.

While deep tissue massage has some benefit to osteo/muscular injuries that is not a function of chiropractic.

All chiropractors are quacks.

[beam me up scottie]

133. I agree. Craniopathy is just as ridiculous.

The whole premise is a joke.

[slackmaster]

209. I believe in Corrective Phrenology

Rearranging the bumps on a person's head can bring about many beneficial behavior changes.

:spank:

[beam me up scottie]

210. Well, THAT's completely different!

I won't argue with that therapy.
:rofl:

[sunnystarr]

240. Actually the Palmer method has nothing to do with spine

I was treated for a severe attack that kept me from standing up straight. I was in pain for a week hardly able to walk before I finally went to the doctor who told me I had to be hospitalized and put in traction. I had 3 kids and 5 stepkids and this was the week before Christmas and I told him that was impossible. I went to my friend and he used an "activator" that hit 2 points (one behind each ear right after the bone), 2 points next to the end of each shoulder blade, and 2 points in the back and front just inside each hip bone. I walked out of there straight without pain and was fine.

So you can call that quackery .. I call it success. I get in that condition every few years and it's the quickest remedy.

[arikara]

193. My MD is more of a quack

and is far more harmful to my health than my chiropractor. I would rather take hawthorn berry as prescribed by a doctor of Chinese medicine for lowering cholesterol than to be poisoned by something like Baycol.

And the pharmaceutical companies that feed western doctors aren't trying to heal you, they're only after making a profit.

[beam me up scottie]

196. Right. And how would you treat diabetes ?

High blood pressure?
Heart disease?
Pneumonia?
Cancer?
AIDs?

[serryjw]

236. You are confusing HEALING and CURING

Everyone of the illnesses you mention could have been prevented, and people with them could have HEALED themselves.
As a Cancer survivor...I CAUSED my cancer so I can HEAL my cancer ( and I did)...Don't believe it........You can continue to give your money to quack western doctors and OUR friends the phama houses. WHY are you so willing to NOT accept that you have the ability to HEAL whatever is wrong with you. There are ROOT causes for every illness. Find the ROOT cause and you can HEAL yourself.

[beam me up scottie]

237. Why because I'm paid by the medical mafia to bury the truth, silly!

Sorry, but ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous answers.

[Baconfoot]

289. So do you still have cancer or not? Does HEAL involve "CURE" or not? NT

[woo me with science]

194. good list.... also EMDR

Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming
Thought Field Therapy
Cranio-sacral Therapy
Vision Therapy
Reiki
Facilitated Communication
Iridology
Neurolinguistic Programming
Orgone Therapy
Neurotherapy
Past Life Therapy
Faith Healing
Auditory Training
Chelation for autism
Secretin for autism

[Richard D]

233. Quackery is a big word . . .

. . . chosen because they covered a broad variety of conditions. Could have had dozens and dozens more as well. Most of these are in quite mainstram medical journals:

1: Obstet Gynecol. 2005 Jul;106(1):138-43.
Acupuncture for overactive bladder: a randomized controlled trial.
Emmons SL, Otto L.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Oregon Health and Science University, Portland, 97239, USA. [e-mail]
OBJECTIVE: To compare acupuncture treatment for overactive bladder with urge incontinence with a placebo acupuncture treatment.
CONCLUSION: Women who received 4 weekly bladder-specific acupuncture treatments had significant improvements in bladder capacity, urgency, frequency, and quality-of-life scores as compared with women who received placebo acupuncture treatments.

PMID: 15994629
2: Phys Ther. 2005 Jun;85(6):490-501.
Effects of acupuncture versus ultrasound in patients with impingement syndrome: randomized clinical trial.
Johansson KM, Adolfsson LE, Foldevi MO.
Physical Therapy Program, Department of Health and Society, Primary Care, Linkopings Universitet, S-581 83 Linkoping, Sweden. [e-mail]
BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE: There is no definitive evidence for the efficacy of the physical therapy interventions used for patients with impingement syndrome. The purpose of this study was to compare manual acupuncture and continuous ultrasound, both applied in addition to home exercises, for patients diagnosed with impingement syndrome.
. RESULTS: Both groups improved, but the acupuncture group had a larger improvement in the combined score. DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION: The results suggest that acupuncture is more efficacious than ultrasound when applied in addition to home exercises.

3: BMJ. 2005 Apr 2;330(7494) 61. Epub 2005 Mar 18.
Comment in: BMJ. 2005 Jul 30;331(7511):249-50.
Effects of acupuncture and stabilising exercises as adjunct to standard treatment in pregnant women with pelvic girdle pain: randomised single blind controlled trial.
Elden H, Ladfors L, Olsen MF, Ostgaard HC, Hagberg H.
Perinatal Center, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Institute for the Health of Women and Children, Sahlgrenska Academy, East Hospital, 41685 Gothenburg, Sweden. [e-mail]
OBJECTIVES: To compare the efficacy of standard treatment, standard treatment plus acupuncture, and standard treatment plus stabilizing exercises for pelvic girdle pain during pregnancy.
CONCLUSION: Acupuncture and stabilizing exercises constitute efficient complements to standard treatment for the management of pelvic girdle pain during pregnancy. Acupuncture was superior to stabilizing exercises in this study.

4: Pain. 2005 Apr;114(3):320-7.
Auricular acupuncture for pain relief after total hip arthroplasty - a randomized controlled study.
Usichenko TI, Dinse M, Hermsen M, Witstruck T, Pavlovic D, Lehmann Ch.
Department of Anesthesiology and Intensive Care Medicine, Ernst Moritz Arndt University of Greifswald, Friedrich Loeffler Str. 23b, 17487 Greifswald, Germany. [e-mail]
Auricular acupuncture (AA) is known to be effective in treatment of various pain conditions, but still there have been no randomized controlled studies of AA for treatment of acute postoperative pain. Therefore we tested whether AA of specific points is superior to sham acupuncture for complementary analgesia after total hip arthroplasty in a patient-anesthesiologist-evaluator-analyst blinded study. The patients were randomly allocated to receive true AA (lung, shenmen, thalamus and hip points) or sham procedure (4 non-acupuncture points on the auricular helix). Permanent press AA needles were retained in situ 3 days after surgery. Postoperative pain was treated with intravenous piritramide (opioid receptor agonist with analgesic potency of 0.7 compared with morphine) using a patient-controlled analgesia (PCA) pump. The time to the first analgesic request, the amount of postoperative piritramide via PCA and pain intensity on a 100-mm visual analogue scale (VAS-100) were used to evaluate postoperative analgesia. Intraoperative anesthetic requirement, incidence of analgesia-related side effects, inflammation parameters and success of patients' blinding were also recorded. Fifty-four patients (29 AA and 25 controls) completed the study. Piritramide requirement during 36 h after surgery in AA group was lower than in control: 37+/-18 vs. 54+/-21 mg; mean+/-SD; P=0.004. Pain intensity on VAS-100 and incidence of analgesia-related side effects were similar in both groups. The differences between the groups as regard patients' opinions concerning success of blinding were not significant. Findings from our study demonstrate that AA could be used to reduce postoperative analgesic requirement.

5: J Altern Complement Med. 2004 Dec;10(6) 59-65.
Effects of SP6 acupressure on labor pain and length of delivery time in women during labor.
Lee MK, Chang SB, Kang DH.
Department of Nursing, Dankook University, San #29 Anseo-dong, Cheonan-si, Chungnam, Korea 330-714. [e-mail]
OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to evaluate the effects of SP6 acupressure on labor pain and delivery time in women in labor
RESULTS: There were significant differences between the groups in subjective labor pain scores at all time points following the intervention: immediately after the intervention (p = 0.012); 30 minutes after the intervention (p = 0.021); and 60 minutes after the intervention (p = 0.012). The total labor time (3 cm dilatation to delivery) was significantly shorter in the SP6 acupressure intervention group than in the control group (p = 0.006).
CONCLUSIONS: These findings showed that SP6 acupressure was effective for decreasing labor pain and shortening the length of delivery time. SP6 acupressure can be an effective nursing management for women in labor.

6: Complement Ther Med. 2004 Dec;12(4):181-8.
Preventive and curative effects of acupuncture on the common cold: a multicentre randomized controlled trial in Japan.
Kawakita K, Shichidou T, Inoue E, Nabeta T, Kitakouji H, Aizawa S, Nishida A, Yamaguchi N, Takahashi N, Yano T, Tanzawa S.
Japan Acupuncture and Moxibustion Center, 3-44-14 Minami otsuka, Toshima-ku, Tokyo 170-0005, Japan. [e-mail]
OBJECTIVE: To determine the preventive and curative effects of manual acupuncture on the symptoms of the common cold.
RESULTS: Five of the 326 subjects who were recruited dropped out. The diary score in the acupuncture group tended to decrease after treatment, but the difference between groups was not significant (Kaplan-Meier survival analysis, log rank test P=0.53, Cox regression analysis, P>0.05). Statistically significantly fewer symptoms were reported in the questionnaire by the acupuncture group than control group (P=0.024, general linear model, repeated measure). Significant inter-centre (P<0.001, general linear model) and sex (P=0.027, general linear model) differences were also detected. Reliability tests indicated that the questionnaire with 15 items was sufficiently reliable. No severe adverse event was reported.
CONCLUSION: This is the first report of a multi-centre randomized controlled trial of acupuncture for symptoms of the common cold. A significantly positive effect of acupuncture was demonstrated in the summed questionnaire data, although a highly significant inter-centre difference was observed. Needling on the neck using the Japanese fine needle manipulating technique was shown to be effective and safe. The use of acupuncture for symptoms of the common cold symptoms should be considered, although further evidence from placebo controlled RCTs is required.

7: Acupunct Med. 2004 Dec;22(4):170-7.
Trigger point acupuncture treatment of chronic low back pain in elderly patients--a blinded RCT.
Itoh K, Katsumi Y, Kitakoji H.
Department of Clinical Acupuncture and Moxibustion, Meiji University of Oriental Medicine, Kyoto, Japan. [e-mail]
OBJECTIVE: There is some evidence for the efficacy of acupuncture in chronic low back pain, but it remains unclear which acupuncture modes are most effective. Our objective was to evaluate the effects of two different modes of trigger point acupuncture on pain and quality of life in chronic low back pain patients compared to standard acupuncture treatment.
RESULTS: After treatment, the group that received deep needling to trigger points reported less pain intensity and improved quality of life compared to the standard acupuncture group or the group that received superficial needling to trigger points, but the differences were not statistically significant. There was a significant reduction in pain intensity between the treatment and interval in the group that received deep needling to trigger points (P<0.01), but not in the standard acupuncture group or the group that received superficial needling to trigger points.
CONCLUSION: These results suggest that deep needling to trigger points may be more effective in the treatment of low back pain in elderly patients than either standard acupuncture therapy, or superficial needling to trigger points.

8: Ann Intern Med. 2004 Dec 21;141(12) 01-10.
Comment in: Ann Intern Med. 2005 May 17;142(10):871; author reply 872-3. Ann Intern Med. 2005 May 17;142(10):872; author reply 872-3. J Fam Pract. 2005 Mar;54(3):200.
Summary for patients in: Ann Intern Med. 2004 Dec 21;141(12):I20.
Effectiveness of acupuncture as adjunctive therapy in osteoarthritis of the knee: a randomized, controlled trial.
Berman BM, Lao L, Langenberg P, Lee WL, Gilpin AM, Hochberg MC.
University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland 21207, USA.
BACKGROUND: Evidence on the efficacy of acupuncture for reducing the pain and dysfunction of osteoarthritis is equivocal.
CONCLUSIONS: Acupuncture seems to provide improvement in function and pain relief as an adjunctive therapy for osteoarthritis of the knee when compared with credible sham acupuncture and education control groups.

9: Pain. 2004 Dec;112(3):289-98.
Randomised trial of long term effect of acupuncture for shoulder pain.
Guerra de Hoyos JA, Andres Martin Mdel C, Bassas y Baena de Leon E, Vigara Lopez M, Molina Lopez T, Verdugo Morilla FA, Gonzalez Moreno MJ.
Andalusia Public Health Service, C/La Maria 26, DP 41008 Sevilla, Spain. [e-mail]
The objective of the study is to compare the efficacy of electro-acupuncture with placebo-acupuncture for the treatment of shoulder pain. This study comprised of a prospective, randomized, placebo controlled trial, with independent evaluator set in a Public primary care clinic in Spain. The participants are patients aged from 25 to 83 years with shoulder pain. Patients were randomly allocated to two treatments over eight weeks, with electro-acupuncture or skin non-penetrating placebo-acupuncture, both able to take diclofenac if needed for intense pain. Primary outcome measure was the difference between groups in pain intensity (visual analogue scale-VAS). Secondary outcomes were differences between groups in pain intensity measured by Lattinen index, in range of motion (goniometer), functional ability (SPADI), quality of life (COOP-WONCA charts), NSAIDS intake, credibility (Borkoveck and Nau scale) and global satisfaction (10 points analogue scale). Assessments were performed before, during and three and six months after treatment. At six month follow-up after treatment the acupuncture group showed a significantly greater improvement in pain intensity compared with the control group . The acupuncture group had consistently better results in every secondary outcome measure than the control group. Acupuncture is an effective long-term treatment for patients with shoulder pain (from soft tissues lesions) in a primary care setting.

10: J Affect Disord. 2004 Nov 15;83(1):89-95.
Acupuncture: a promising treatment for depression during pregnancy.
Manber R, Schnyer RN, Allen JJ, Rush AJ, Blasey CM.
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Stanford University. 401, Quarry Rd., Stanford, CA 94305, USA. [e-mail]
BACKGROUND: Few medically acceptable treatments for depression during pregnancy are available. The aim of this randomized controlled pilot study was to determine whether acupuncture holds promise as a treatment for depression during pregnancy.
CONCLUSION: Acupuncture holds promise for the treatment of depression during pregnancy.

11: Pain. 2004 Jun;109(3):299-307.
Comment in: Pain. 2004 Dec;112(3):411; author reply 411-2. Pain. 2004 Jun;109(3):203-4.
Effect of acupuncture treatment on chronic neck and shoulder pain in sedentary female workers: a 6-month and 3-year follow-up study.
He D, Veiersted KB, Hostmark AT, Medbo JI.
Department of General Practice and Community Medicine, University of Oslo, Norway. [e-mail]
The study was carried out to examine whether acupuncture treatment can reduce chronic pain in the neck and shoulders and related headache, and also to examine whether possible effects are long-lasting. Therefore, 24 female office workers (47+/-9 years old, mean+/-SD) who had had neck and shoulder pain for 12+/-9 years were randomly assigned to a test group (TG) or a control group (CG). Acupuncture was applied 10 times during 3-4 weeks either at presumed anti-pain acupoints (TG) or at placebo-points (CG). A physician measured the pain threshold (PPT) in the neck and shoulder regions with algometry before the first treatment, and after the last one and six months after the treatments. Questionnaires on muscle pain and headache were answered at the same occasions and again 3 years after the last treatment. The intensity and frequency of pain fell more for TG than for CG (Pb < or = 0.04) during the treatment period. Three years after the treatments TG still reported less pain than before the treatments (Pw < 0.001) contrary to what CG did (Pb < 0.04) The degree of headache fell during the treatment period for both groups, but more for TG than for CG (Pb=0.02) Three years after the treatments the effect still lasted for TG (Pw < 0.01) while the degree of headache for CG was back to the pre-treatment level (Pb < 0.001) PPT of some muscles rose during the treatments for TG and remained higher 6 months after the treatments (Pw < 0.05) which contrasts the situation for CG. Adequate acupuncture treatment may reduce chronic pain in the neck and shoulders and related headache. The effect lasted for 3 years.

16: Digestion. 2004;69(3):131-9. Epub 2004 Apr 26.
Acupuncture and moxibustion in the treatment of active Crohn's disease: a randomized controlled study.
Joos S, Brinkhaus B, Maluche C, Maupai N, Kohnen R, Kraehmer N, Hahn EG, Schuppan D.
Department of Medicine I-Gastroenterology, Research Group for Alternative Medicine, Friedrich Alexander University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Erlangen, Germany. [e-mail]
BACKGROUND: Acupuncture has traditionally been used in the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease in China and is increasingly being applied in Western countries. The purpose of this study was to investigate the efficacy of acupuncture in the treatment of active Crohn's disease (CD).
CONCLUSIONS: Apart from a marked placebo effect, traditional acupuncture offers an additional therapeutic benefit in patients with mild to moderately active CD.

[beam me up scottie]

234. Thanks for the quack spam but this thread is about homeopathy.

Got any proof water cures disease?
There's a million dollars in it for you if you do.
Plus the Lancet will be REALLY embarassed.

[Richard D]

245. Yup, water cures disease . . .

. . . the effects of dehydration. No cure for a closed mind though.

[MsTryska]

253. *lol* this is hilarious.....

all of a sudden when someone provides you with data this thread is ONLY about homeopathy?


you seemed to have no problem snarking it up with people with like-minded views on chiropractic and acupuncture.


give me a break.

[MsTryska]

251. i pay $10 per visit to see a chiropractor

2 times a month.


And nowadays i'm actually able to turn my head to the left and see on-coming traffic when i'm making a right-hand turn.


it's worth it. that and the improvement in my posture are well worth it.



but heck maybe it's all in my mind. maybe the pain in my neck and shoulders didn't exist at all, and all that expensive "quackery" didn't fix it.

[HuckleB]

252. Indeed...

however, you've seen a chiropractor for something for which there is some evidence of efficacy. There are other ailments, that some chiropractors attempt to treat with no evidence of efficacy. The same can be said regarding acupuncture, which I have used for musculoskeletal issues with some success.

[MsTryska]

254. yes and the same can be said for allopathy....

how many times do folks go to their GP for a Cold?


and how often do they walk out with a prescription for Antibiotics?


I will readily accept that chiropractic does have a fringe loonsector that does believe that chiropractic cures everything. But that doesn't mean chiropractic is useless. Nor does it make acupuncture useless or homeopathy.


Skepticism is healthy - but it should make you do your research so that you can make informed decisions for yourself. Not automatically discount anything some guy with an MD behind his name doesn't tell you. How does that make you a skeptic? You're still following someone else's opinion blindly. That person just happens to be a part of the establishment.

[HuckleB]

260. Docs who prescribe antibiotics for viral infections are an issue.

And there are plenty of practices that continue to be used that are in use only because they've always been done, with no basis in efficacy. And, yes, there are some docs who hate it when evidence shows that they should change their practice. Still, its difficult for MDs to save face and use excuses to continue doing the same thing despite evidence. The same can't be said for homeopaths, something for which the evidence to date is quite clear, and I'm still waiting for evidence that shows it's useful in any way.

I think I made it clear that I didn't think chiropractic and acupuncture were useless. As I noted, I use acupuncture myself from time to time.

Still, I don't think there are many skeptics on this board who give a rat's ass about titles. From what I've noted, they've looked at the research quite thoroughly. Further, "the establishment" doesn't mean much of anything. It seems to be used to bring people together to fight against a faceless enemy rather than actually look at the evidence available. Further, it boggles my mind to read people rant about "big pharma" and Vioxx, while failing to question things like homeopathy. It seems like some scam radars are rather selective.

[MsTryska]

263. Well think about it = "Big Pharma" and the FDA have a lot to blame....

we've got these skyrocketing costs for healthcare - and i can't think of even one person in my sphere of influence that isn't on some daily medication or the other. And I and most of the people i know are in their 20s and 30s. Soemthing ain't right.



And big Pharma and the FDA and the AMA work in cahoots to stop people from using valid alternative therapies to keep themselves from being consumers of the products pu out by big Pharma and the AMA -

do you not think that the AMA has a valid fincancial interest in making sure chiropractors and acupuncturists and naturopaths and herbalists aren't consdiered part of the establishment?


do you think big Pharma has a valid interest in undermining natural supplementation that may impact the bottomline of their big sellers?


it's the same old Big Business vs the little guy story - jsut playing otu in a different arena.

[HuckleB]

291. Thanks for the conspiracies.

Aren't they fun?

I work in the real world of health care, where MDs and Nurse Practitioners spend their time trying to treat their patients to the best of their ability with the least intervention. And guess what? That means they often refer patients to physicial therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, massage therapists and others who treat people for ailments shown by evidence to be treatable by their skill sets.

On the other hand, I also see plenty of people, many of them poor, dumping their money upon homeopathic remedies and homeopath practitioners, and there is no evidence that this money is being spent in any way that is different from a complete scam. So, again, lets see some skepticism across the board, rather than the hyperbole that doesn't match reality.

Thanks.

[MsTryska]

296. And since you work in the real world of healthcare

you know as well as I do that the working MDs and NPs aren't the AMA.


the doctors may be members - but have very little control over how the AMA lobbies the FDA.

[HuckleB]

298. Blah. Blah. Blah.

I love it when people make sweeping accusations, get called on it, and then back away in this manner. Apparently the AMA and the FDA have all us health care professionals dancing to their off-key tunes, and, of course, all of those tunes are just horrific.

:eyes:

[MsTryska]

302. speaking of getting called out......

I mention the difference between the masses and the lobbying arms of said masses and rather than provide input you choose to make ad hominem attacks.

guess i've made my point.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BigMcLargehuge]

94. LOL

yeah, okay...

[beam me up scottie]

69. I've got a gallon of water to sell you for only $175.00.

It remembers that I showed it a picture of ragweed and will cure your hayfever.

Yep, stupid scientists don't know anything, do they?

[BigMcLargehuge]

72. Don't buy his cheap imitation ragweed cure... Mine is $225.00 because -

I personally hired Russian Mystic Madame Bratananaluski to wave her empowered hands over the jars and "align" and "charge" the water before I showed it a picture of Ragweed (from a National Geographic magazine, so there is no question about the quality of the source).

Don't be fooled by imitations!

[beam me up scottie]

92. Liar!

Madame Bratananaluski was sent up the river for using her "empowered hands" to "align" and "charge" her male customers for moola.

[BigMcLargehuge]

95. it's true she has a side business offering a virility treatment

but that's beside the point!

[Bat Boy]

155. Fools! Charlatans!

People, do not be fooled by these snake oil salesmen. My remedy leaves theirs in the dust!

Bees are immune to the allergens in pollen, yes? And bees make honey, right?

So I've taken honey and put it in water. Voila! Your allergies are a thing of the past.

But wait, there's more...

The water I use comes from the tap in my bathroom, to which I have strapped a buttload of dried dandelions, ragweed, mold and cat hair. This frightens the water, making it highly susceptible to honey's curative influence. The water becomes so enamored of the honey that it will do anything for it.

When you drink a small amount of Bat Boy's Miracle Cure, the honey instructs the water to beat the living crap out of any allergens in your system.

And that would be worth the $29.95 per gallon, right?

Well you wait right there, because your body is over 50% water, isn't it? When the "warrior water" enters your body, it starts to convert your unbelieving body water into an allergy fighting army! It works kind of like communism.

With just a few treatments your allergies will die horrible deaths up against the wall of the honey revolution.

Act now and recieve a free honey bear with every order. Offer not valid in Tennesee.

Beat that, phoneys.

[fudge stripe cookays]

158. Honey bear??!!

Well by GOD sign me up!

Where's that dotted line? :D
FSC

[beam me up scottie]

159. Uncle !!!

"The water I use comes from the tap in my bathroom, to which I have strapped a buttload of dried dandelions, ragweed, mold and cat hair. This frightens the water, making it highly susceptible to honey's curative influence. The water becomes so enamored of the honey that it will do anything for it."

:spray:
:rofl:

[BigMcLargehuge]

161. Gahahahahahahah!!!

Warrior water!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

[salvorhardin]

167. Bah! I don't believe you!

It's not scientific if you didn't use magnets!

[mccoyn]

171. Cripes, don't use all the magnets.

We need them to build above unity generators. They only work with permenant magnets that are arrayed in a precise way. You use a motor to turn the magnets and they generator power in some wires, which charges a battery that will run both your house and the motor. I checked with my voltmeter and it was true (hard to tell with the needle bouncing around, but I did an average in my head.)

[salvorhardin]

182. There's no need to hoard the magnets

If you take the simple step of magnetizing the iron in your blood first. Once one has done this then just holding the water tap lovingly (think good thoughts!) will have a much powerful effect than any of your inferior permanent magnets.

Years of study has taught me that the most efficient way of doing this is by repeatedly pressing the degaussing button on your computer monitor. Degaussing is a complex scientific process whereby the harmful negative magnetrons that tend to build up inside of all electronic equipment are converted to healing postive magnetrons by reversing the local field polarity of your computer monitor by applying a high voltage harmonic current to the picture coil.

When this current is turned off a burst positve healing magnetrons floods the space-time continuum in the vicinity of the monitor. If you press your forehead to the monitor screen before initiating the degaussing process the postive healing magnetrons will imprint themselves on the iron in the blood currently flowing through your brain. Since the human body has around 6 quarts of blood and your brain can only hold a little of it at a time, you will need to repeat this process several times.

You may be able to improve the efficiency of this process by tuning the picture coil of your monitor so that it is more closely in tune with your own local body field.

[beam me up scottie]

170. Can I be a distributor?

Ka-ching! :P

[MsTryska]

255. why would anyone buy water for $175 for a seasonal allergies when

they can just buy local-farmed honey for $6 a bottle (if that) and be set all season?

[beam me up scottie]

71. dupe

[Lindacooks]

285. Why do people who support alternative medicines always think

that the AMA and doctors are out to make a buck, but never make the connection between the unregulated industry that hawks supplements, herbs, and the money THEY want to make? Doctors and the AMA do have more interest in American's health; the supplement industry is the one out to make the buck!!

[burythehatchet]

295. Consider the difference between the practice

of alternative therapies as conducted by traditionalists and the companies that then take the therapy and try to make a buck. That's what America is about. Take anything that is genuine and commercialize it to death in order to separate people from their money. There's a difference between my great grandfather practicing homeopathy for 80 years and the american corporation selling you stuff. Its actually your problem as an American. Take yoga for example, you might think Yoga is something people do for exercise. In general, it is your culture that is based on commercialism and consumerism that distorts genuine traditions that have worked for people all over the world for centuries.

Now I'll wait for all the enlightened posters who would present proof positive that yoga is a scam perpetrated by yoga schools, and that there is no physical or psychological benefit to its practice.

[ProfessorGAC]

101. Thousands of People?

Thousands? Care to back that up?

I have one sincere question to someone like you who is so supportive of alternative medicine: If these centuries old techniques are so effective, why has the life expectancy risen over the the last 300 years in EVERY industrialized nation?
The Professor

[MrBenchley]

68. "Homeopathy was around before the AMA came into effect"

So was witch-burning, runes and the dowsing rod...

[burythehatchet]

93. impeccable logic

try again

[MrBenchley]

154. Yup, it was....

Sometime you ought to actually study some logic...

[burythehatchet]

213. thanks for the tip, I'll give it serious consideration

[SeveneightyWhoa]

230. He/she is right.

By your standards, creationism is more credible because it came before the science of evolution.

[Lindacooks]

286. AND American's life span was considerably shorter than it is now.

[shadowknows69]

112. People shouldn't discount the power of the mind

and its ability to heal.

[beam me up scottie]

117. Nobody is discounting the power of the mind. Just the power of water

to cure disease.
Personally, I'd rather not be tricked into thinking a placebo works.

[enki23]

287. so was bloodletting

.

[...of J.Temperance]

4. Self Delete

[burythehatchet]

28. Homeopathic treatment is not like taking a pill

It is a longer term therapeutic treatment that aims to attack the underlying dis-ease. It is crazy to try it for a migraine as these headaches can quickly skyrocket out of control when an element that is foreign to the body is introduced during a time of stress. Anyway, homeopathy is simply not compatible with the Western (especially American) lifestyle and culture. We are more concerned with supressing symptoms as opposed to treating the whole person. We need the instant relief. Homeopathy attempts to have the body and mind rid itself of the problem asopposed to covering it up.

Literally 100's of millions of people rely on homeopathy. I wish I knew more about it to be able to practice it like elder members of my family do.

[K-W]

6. Nice. I doubt this will dissuade many people though. EOM

[beam me up scottie]

7. I think you're right.

But at least my faith in the Lancet is restored.

[greyl]

8. Lol :)

The Lancet, huh?
This is hilarious, and heartwarming at once.
re: that locked gd thread.

But to answer your question, "no, there's too much money to be made by Homeopathic corporations from gullible people. Unless laws are put on the books banning Homeopathy outright.

great post!

[beam me up scottie]

9. Thanks.

It would be nice, but you're right, too much money to be made.

[burythehatchet]

23. homeopathic corporations?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

In India, the homeopathic megacorporations are quite wily. They market their product through elderly practioners who treat generations of family members.

[HuckleB]

243. So...

You think it's ok for companies to sell products that don't do what the company says they do?

[Modem Butterfly]

10. Kick

Kick and nominated. With health costs rising in the US, and Prince Chuck advocating alternative "medicine" as a good way for their NHS to save money, homeopathy advocates will become even more persistant.

[HereSince1628]

11. An effect in the mind isn't all that bad...

If you think you feel better, you're likely to act like you are.
Consquently, I think homeopathy, like Chrisitanity is likely to stay around for a long time.

The survival of both insured by true believers.

[beam me up scottie]

21. The same can be said for placebos.

But there's more money in selling people water and calling it a cure.

[HereSince1628]

33. Doc's may prescribe placebos but patients don't intentionally buy them

THAT would be really strange. I am buying this treatment I know to be non-effective because I want to trick myself into thinking I have a treatment.

[beam me up scottie]

"I want to trick myself into thinking I have a treatment"

Exactly.
Some people don't want to know they're just buying water.

[PurgedVoter]

19. Gosh Gee Wiz this proves it.

However, from the time I was 14 to the time I was 30 I have been congested. I tried everything. I constantly produced snot. It did not help my career at all. Then I tried a product called Bioallers. It worked instantly. The long term effect is that I can pass for normal. I still carry napkins 23/7, but now I don't have to replenish my supply hourly. After reading and researching homeopathy, it looks to me like there is a lot of room for fakes and placebos. There are a lot of claims that make no sense at all. Since there is room for fakery and incompetence in the field, I suspect that most homeopathy is worthless. However, compared to one particular product, all the other meds (including the prescribed ones) are placebo. Some antihistamines and decongestants have helped for a while, but the drying in the long term make the problems worse. For me, there are four medications that have been effective against allergic congestion, Tiger Balm, The original Altoids, Fisherman's Friend, and Bioallers. Bioallers is the only medication that has had long term effect. So as for me, I am quite certain that some homeopathic medicines work.

[charlie]

25. Is Bioallers homeopathy?

Or are they trading on the buzzword? There's no mention of exponential dilution on their site that I can find. Their products might be just plain old herbal remedies.

http://www.botlab.com/products.asp?page=products&brand=bioAllers

[MsTryska]

36. yes it is homepathic.

look at the ingredient list. each name in the list is the active compound - the "12x/6X" etc - is the dilution strength.

[charlie]

39. Was wondering if that's what those meant

Thanks, I missed the explanation.

[MsTryska]

46. no problem.....

if i recall correctly - it's based on the decimal system so an X denotes 10 and c denotes 100


so rhus toxicodendron 30c is a dilution of poison ivy (i think? can't remember the latin name) of 1 part poison ivy to 3,000 parts alcohol/water.

[SidDithers]

74. That's not correct, see post #43 for the dilution factors...

a 30C dliution is actually 1 part poison ivy to 10^30 parts alcohol/water.

10^30 = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

If you dilute a substace that much, there's no "there" there anymore. So you can see why we don't believe homeopathy is anything more than a placebo. A 30C solution is nothing more than water.

Sid

[MsTryska]

81. ah...i stand corrected.

as for the whether that 1 part makes a difference or not - i guess it depends on how you look at it.


if you think a molecule makes no qualitative difference, then sure.

[SidDithers]

88. And I buggerd up my calculations :)

What I posted was a 30X dilution, which is one part poison ivy diluted with 10 parts water, and then diluted again by 10 parts 29 more times.

A 30C dilution is 1 part poison ivy diluted by 100 parts water, and then diluted again by 100 parts 29 more times.

So you get:

30C = 100^30
or
1 part poison ivy to
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 water

This is the equivalent of one molecule of a substance in a container of water that is 30 billion times the volume of the Earth.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

113. Okay. Now tell me how someone can read that and yet

still think it works?

[salvorhardin]

90. but that's just the thing

When you dilute something that much, the chances of a molecule of the active ingredient being contained the magic water you buy are pretty slim. In fact, the odds are so close to zero as to make no difference.

What the homeopathic magic water peddlers have been selling is that the water will have a "memory" of the active ingredient and this memory is even more powerful than the actual active ingredient and yet will never harm you.

[MsTryska]

258. what is this magic water y'all keep referring to:

the homeopathic remedies i have are little pellets.


i don't know how it works - but the remedy that's designed to make you shit, makes my cat shit.


and i'll use anything that makes my cat shit on a regular basis.


(incidentally i've tried pretty much every possibility out there - even the alloptahic vetrinary one - which he won't take at all)


my only other option to get this damn cat relief is sticking stuff up his ass (either suppositories or enemas) or getting him surgery to cut out the non-working parts of his colon.


i'll stick with the damn homoepathic pills.

[Orsino]

277. The real test, then, would be...

...whether consumers of the homeopathic solution can tell the difference between it and the same concentration of the inactive ingredients without the homeopathic "treatment."

[Susang]

130. The first ingredient in Bioallers is Adrenalin

Otherwise known as epinephrine. A standard stimulant that works as a decongestant and the main ingredient in products like Sudafed. Western Science disguised as "homeopathy". :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

134. Oooooooooooo.

You're good!
:evilgrin:

[PurgedVoter]

214. Yep I think the adrenalin helps,

However a lot of things can give dramatic instant relief, this one however gave long term benefits. One of the theories in homeopathy is that by associating toxins with allergens your body can learn to deal with them. The original directions for Bioallers was to not take anything for thirty minutes. Then to put 15 drops under your tongue for 30 seconds. Then to not take anything for 30 more minutes. The under the tongue thing is a way to get the adrenalin in for sudden relief, I am guessing. Anyway the new directions are much more convenient, however they do not do as much good for me. I only get short term relief. So when I am 'renewing' the effect after about eight months or so, I follow the original, less convenient instructions.

[jmowreader]

226. The adrenalin is a 6x dilution

How much ya wanna bet that the first "inactive ingredient" in Bioallers is table salt?

Squirt a "homeopathic preparation" with table salt in it up your nose and the congestion will stop...because saline nose drops have cured congestion forever.

[PurgedVoter]

242. Saline at the right mix is ok, but no cure.

I used to regularly pour saline into my sinuses to clear them out. If you have been horribly congested, and have the mix right, it feels great, cleans out your sinuses and everything. But overactive immune systems keep on producing stuff to protect you and in five minutes, your are clogged again, in an hour you are back to hideous normal.
Simple truth, for me the Bioallers absolutely made a difference. Night and Day, and the stuff keeps on helping. After taking this twice a day for about two weeks, and using about 3/4 of a bottle, I have no big problem for eight or more months. This was not applied to sinuses, this was held under my tongue, then swallowed. It worked. The rest of the medications, shots, etc.. would do for eight hours tops and had side effects. A lot of them where very expensive and did nothing at all. I have tried several other homeopathic remedies and will make no such claim for them. I am impressed with a few home remedies, elderberry for arthritis, vinegar for athletes foot, olive oil in alcohol and vinegar for ear infections. I chew willow leaves when I am near them and need an aspirin. Unless I have a good and trusty cure that I can trust the dosage of, I go to the doctor. The doctor could not give real relief to my allergic condition. Bioallers did.

[MsTryska]

262. or perhaps you have it backwards.....

just because adrenaline is used doesn't make it western.


epinephrine is a naturally occuring substance as is ephedrine.


both are used to treat asthma, allergies, congestion, etc - and have been for hundreds of years.


Modern medicine came along figured out how it works, sexed it up - picked up a molecule here, dropped a molecule there - and gave us.....Primatene Mist! and charged us lots of money for it.


So perhaps a shift in perspective is in order - look at your allopathic "modern medicine" "cures" for things - see what the roots of these magical pills might be - evaluate the side effects - and then consider what would happen if you skipped the "unintended consequences" middleman and used what Nature provided for you.


Granted in some ways Modern medicine has done a lot to further Humans existence on this planet - but we're reaping some of the unintended consequences now.

Sure people get the opportunity to rot to death instead of dying of scarlet fever in their teens, but superflus, drug resistant flesh eating bacteria, alzheimers, parkinsons, cancer of the whatzit?

it's a trade-off.

[Beetwasher]

22. But You're Ignoring the META-STUDIES!!!!!

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

31. Sad, isn't it?

Yesterday the Lancet was better than the word of god.
Today they don't want to believe the FOURTH study that says it's useless.

[burythehatchet]

24. Study by Grace corporation declares asbestos to be safe

same difference.

[beam me up scottie]

27. Right. Keep telling yourself that.

Whatever makes you feel better.
:evilgrin:

[burythehatchet]

30. Don't really need to convince myself

Having observed four generations of my family apply homeopathy effectively is really all I need. :) Althoug I will alert them to the study by The Lancet and send them sample packs of goodies from Merck.

[K-W]

29. Feel free to prove your claim

by exposing the flawed methodology of the study.

[burythehatchet]

35. see post 30

Responding to your request may carry more importance to you than it does to me.

Do you believe in herbal tonics?
Do you believe that the rain forests contain many medicines that natives have used for centuries?
Do you find it easy to ignore the fact cultures around the world have relied on homeopathy for a very long time?

I couldn't care less whether Americans see any value in the traditions of other cultures. I just laugh at the decisiveness of posters.

[MsTryska]

37. i'm right there with you.....nt

nt

[K-W]

40. Thanks for not answering my question.

This has nothing to do with the value of traditions. You keep trying to turn this into a discussion about pharmacuticals, or cultural traditions. Sorry, that is a red herring.

[burythehatchet]

42. OKiDok

:hi:

[Susang]

132. If you laugh at the decisiveness of other posters

Do you often laugh at yourself? Just wondering.

[burythehatchet]

216. constantly.

[HuckleB]

246. Please explain your choice of rhetoric.

[beam me up scottie]

43. For those who actually want to know what they're buying:

Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.

http://www.alternativehealth.co.nz/anti/homeopathy.htm

[etherealtruth]

67. Why would I purchase such a remedy when ...

...my municipal drinking water contains the same compounds in various dilutions?

If the therapeutic effects depend on exact dilutions, would not the inexact dilutions in my tap water void the effects of the therapeutic dilution?

All alternative therapies are NOT created equal ... many are very effective and some are no more than "snake oil"

[Ian David]

100. I use *some* natural medicine, but Homeopathy is just plain stupid

I used to use Echinacea, but now a very good study has disproved it. I'm still going to use what I have left in the house, because it tastes good.

I use Kava tea to relax sometimes (you catch a nice buzz after four cups).

I used to drink Red Bull, but it has way too much sodium. The Guarana and other stuff in it really perks you up.

And there are a couple other herbal things that seem to work and make sense.

After all, Aspirin originally came from Willow tree bark. Penicillin came from ground fungus.

There is real medicine to be found in nature.

You just have to pick what's safe, sane and effective.

But Homeopathy-- the idea that water contains a "vibrational memory" of something that isn't in it anymore-- is just plain stupid.

In fact, there is a One Million Dollar prize just for being able to identify a Homeopathic substance from distilled water!

James Randi Educational Foundation — Home Page
http://www.randi.org/

[BiggJawn]

102. That's what I was wondering....

Every year I get the report on how many Parts Per Billion our drinking water has of certain substances.

To apply the Homeopathic Theory, shouldn't I be able to drink pure Acetone and PCB and gobble great whomping handfuls of Arsenic and E. Coli with no ill effects?

BTW, I remember some kids who tried that bit about eating poison ivy leaves (start when the leaves just come out, and by the time they're full-growed, you'll be IMMUNE!) and they really were touch and go for a while until the doctors got the blistering in their GI tracts under control....

[beam me up scottie]

110. Don't give them any ideas!

Don't forget you have to be careful around Barnum's Children.

[immoderate]

103. How faith healing works.

And based on the numbers that BMUS provides, homeopathy is faith healing.

When people have a disease, if there is no intervention, one of two things will probably happen:

1. They will get better.
   
2. They will die.

Many experience remission of their symptoms due to the healing powers of their immune system, in which case they will extol the virtues of whatever treatment modality they used. Others will not recover, and they won't be around to testify that it doesn't work. This is the nature of anecdotal evidence of cures. Dead people don't talk.

To my knowledge no scientific double blind study has ever shown homeopathic remedies to work. And it follows logic that they don't. Don't confuse this with herbal or other natural methods which actually have some active ingredients. Real homeopathic agents are just water!

--IMM

[WoodrowFan]

48. again??

:popcorn:

[CornField]

50. It would be best if homeopathy left the mainstream

There are too many so-called homeopathic remedies at the local big box store.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. You big MEANIE! There IS a Santa Claus TOO! There IS! There IS!

And he'll bring you COAL! YOU'LL SEE! WAAAAAAAAAAAH

[BigMcLargehuge]

57. Because "western" science can't prove -

that there AREN'T magic bean husks in unicorn shit means, obviously, that all science is inaccurate and can't be trusted.

[Ian David]

75. ROFL!!!! I'm going to use that quote next time I can!

[Ian David]

84. Self-delete. Duplicate. Anyone else getting lots of errors today?

[BigMcLargehuge]

86. I wanted to say hello earlier

but I was also getting lots of errors. However, I sprinkled some water on my computer that once touched a working network router and it seemed to clear things up.

[BigMcLargehuge]

54. never underestimate the ability of ignorant people to willingly hand over

their money to snake-oil salespeople.

[burythehatchet]

98. never overestimate the smugness and arrogance of

those who know they know.

[BigMcLargehuge]

99. uh huh...

whatever.

[ProfessorGAC]

107. You Mean, Someone Like Yourself?

After reading this thread, i think your post accurately describes your earlier ones.
The Professor

[burythehatchet]

221. thanks for your opinion

its worth every penny I paid for it.

[Ian David]

80. They have the vibrational memory of a brain that used to be in their heads

[Ian David]

82. They have the vibrational memory of a brain that used to be in their heads

[EnfantTerrible]

83. Oh goody!

Y'all are at it again...

:popcorn:

[WoodrowFan]

108. let me join you

any bets on how long before it gets too flamy and gets locked??
:popcorn::popcorn:

[skids]

109. I don't use homeopathy.

...and my initial impression is that most practitioners are probably scamming their customers, or themselves.

However most myth contains a grain of truth, and is based on strong anecdotal evidence before it is distorted and snowballed into a fad.

For example, and for interesting reading, there's this:

http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/sims/water/magnets.htm

For all the ridicule heaped on the "super magnet water softening" gizmos:


(sediment from non-treated water)


(sediment from treated water)

...now that's keeping a scientifically open mind. Not to mention "grains of truth." Ow. Bad pun.


Speaking entirely in general, such subjects need serious study, not one-off pot shots from research scientists who don't necessarily understand the nuances of an alleged phenominon.

[beam me up scottie]

118. Did you see the dilution ratios?

I don't need science to tell me that water doesn't cure disease, but it's nice to know that research confirms it.

Homeopathy is a ridiculous scam that lines the pockets of modern day snake oil salesmen.

[skids]

120. Spend some time on the site I linked.

All I'm saying is that there is a lot about water that we do not yet understand.

[Modem Butterfly]

126. "...there is a lot about water that we do not yet understand"

No, there really isn't.

[Beetwasher]

127. When I Drink Water I Can Fly

I don't understand how it does that.

[skids]

169. Then why...

...is there a serious academic institution devoted to study what we do not understand about water?

[Modem Butterfly]

183. There isn't.

The School of Water Sciences is part of the School of Industrial and Manufacturing Sciences of Crane University. It's an area of concentration devoted to, as they put it: "The Water Sciences' team focuses on key areas of technology and associated scientific, engineering and policy issues for the treatment, use and management of water." Their areas of research include odors, recycling, strategic resource management and sludge treatment.

I don't wish to seem sarcastic, but did you actually read the website you linked to?

[beam me up scottie]

128. Neat site.

It's nice to see someone link to an actual scientific site in a pseudo-science thread.

However, if you read the history, the myth of homeopathy doesn't have a grain of truth to it at all.

Not even a molecule.
;-)

[mopinko]

115. the end? we can hope!

what a lot of hogwash. the water remembers? one born every minute.

[Terran]

119. Just wondering...how do you people feel about acupuncture?

It's another form of alternative medicine that shares a basic principle with homeopathy, and is equally alien to Western scientific method...and yet it has been proven to work. How do you scientific geniuses explain that?

[beam me up scottie]

121. What's that I hear ?

Did someone say they don't trust the Lancet ?

"Are you saying the Lancet isn't reputable" ?

:rofl:

[Terran]

162. I asked a question

and you're one of "you people". Care to answer?

[beam me up scottie]

168. You're begging the question.

Try to be intellectually honest next time and maybe we'll play with you.

[Terran]

181. I'm not begging any questions

See #174 if you didn't get the drift of my question.

[beam me up scottie]

185. Yes, you are. And being insulting as well.

Just wondering...how do you people feel about acupuncture?

It's another form of alternative medicine that shares a basic principle with homeopathy, and is equally alien to Western scientific method...and yet it has been proven to work.

How do you scientific geniuses explain that?

"It's another form of alternative medicine that shares a basic principle with homeopathy,"

No, it doesn't share anything with homeopathy.

"and yet it has been proven to work"

No, it hasn't.

"How do you scientific geniuses explain that?"

Now you're just being snarky because you were wrong.

[Beetwasher]

122. First of All, Who's "You" People? Second Of All Acupuncture Shares NOTHING

w/ homeopathy. What basic principle would that be? It's completely different.

There are numerous studies that have been done and are being done on acupuncture and it's a mixed bag. I'll reserve judgement until I see more evidence.

It's certainly possible that the application of acupuncture needles may stimulate some physiological response, but as I said, from the research I've seen, the jury is still out on whether or not there is an actual effect that's fundamentally different froma placebo effect.

[Terran]

174. "You people"

are the posters in these threads who smugly assume that western science is always right and that alternative theories about medicine are automatically to be dismissed. "You people" are also the ones taking unseemly glee in insulting a number of people who posted on that other thread. Think about that; it's really pretty fucked up.

Acupuncture and homeopathy are both whole-body techniques for addressing bodily ills, and they both conceive certain ills as being the result of the body being 'out of balance'. The idea of "chi" is not found in homeopathy that I know of, but otherwise the concept is the same. Obviously the methods for addressing this balance issue are very different; one assumes that is what you mean when you say they are "completely different".

While doing some research yesterday, I cam across some items about acupuncture which appeared to indicate a clinical confirmation of effectiveness. If you want I'll try to elaborate on that, given time, but I don't think it'll be difficult to show the level of acceptance it has these days (even insurance companies pay for acupuncture).

So I say again, acupuncture and homeopathy have a basis in common not recognized by Western science; yet acupuncture is recognized (I believe can be shown) as effective. I'm not trying to defend homeopathy to you; I'm pointing out that there's likely a divide in the triumphant scientific rationalism being espoused here: what is the rationalist explanation for acupuncture working in a clinical setting, given that western science can't explain how it works?

You said, "It's certainly possible that the application of acupuncture needles may stimulate some physiological response...", and clearly the cause of this response is unknown and perhaps unknowable by western science. So given that, is it not possible that homeopathic medicines "stimulate some physiological response" in some similarly unknown way? Note that I'm not saying that *is* the case; I'm just asking if it's a possibility.

[mccoyn]

176. Balance of what? What is the unit I should measure chi in?

The story of these treatments doesn't go very deep. We don't even have language to talk about this stuff in a scientific explorative manner. Yet, they have supposedly been around for thousands of years. No one has thought to look into the why and how in all that time?

Say what you want about pharmaceutical companies, but at least they give detailed descriptions about the molecular interactions that make their treatments work. They are based in science, not some undefined chi or balance of nothing in particular.

[Terran]

179. Whoosh!

Wow, my post went completely over your head, didn't it? Could you be any *less* responsive to what I asked?

[Beetwasher]

180. You Couldn't Be More Wrong

"...acupuncture and homeopathy have a basis in common not recognized by Western science..."

"Western science"...Uhh, I got news for you, there is no such thing as "Western science", there's only science and scientific method and it's the same everywhere.

If something has an effect, regardless of HOW that effect is generated, it can be measured and eventually investigated to determine exactly HOW that effect is accomplished. There are VERY few things that have an effect for which we are completely stumped as to HOW the effect is accomplished. The one that immediately comes to mind is gravity. However, in medicine, it is practically non-existent. There is much to be learned still in medicine, however in determining if medicine "A" actually has effect "B" we're pretty damn good at it. So far in acupuncture we have not gotten decisively to the point to say "Acupuncture is almost certainly responsible for such and such effects". We're just not there yet.

As far as acupuncture is concerned, they are first determining if in fact there IS an effect that can be measured. They're not so sure. If it is indeed found out that there IS an effect, then they know they won't be wasting their time figuring out HOW that effect is accomplished.

Unfortunately for purveyors and defenders of homeopathy, it has been pretty clearly established that THERE IS NO EFFECT.

[lazarus]

184. Um, no, actually

You seem to not understand something.

"...who smugly assume that western science is always right and that alternative theories about medicine are automatically to be dismissed."

See, we don't assume that things are to be automatically dismissed. Note that we're discussing the FOURTH study that shows what appears to be obvious to anyone with an understanding of math and reality: homeopathy doesn't work.

Note that several of "us people" have also said we're interested in seeing further studies on acupuncture, because the studies so far are a mixed bag.

Does that sound like automatic dismissal? No?

What you also miss is that "we people" have been interested in this stuff for a long time, and have done lots of research on it. So when you see us dismiss dowsing, for example, it's not like we just encountered the phenomenon and immediately decided it's bullshit. We've been aware of it for some time, and have seen dowsers repeatedly fail to show any success rate better than blind luck or educated guesses.

Homeopathy, to get back to the thread at hand, is obviously, a priori, a farcical notion. Having studies to prove this would, one hopes, reduce the temptation to use homeopathy, but that's sadly not likely to be the result.

[HuckleB]

227. Explain what priniciple acupuncture shares with homeopathy please.

[crispini]

231. Now, see, Terran, I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

I don't see that acupuncture shares any basic principles with homeopathy.

[Dora]

131. From MEDLINE search

Title: Treatment of seasonal allergic rhinitis using homeopathic preparation of common allergens in the southwest region of the US: a randomized, controlled clinical trial.
Author(s): Kim LS; Riedlinger JE; Baldwin CM; Hilli L; Khalsa SV; Messer SA; Waters RF
Author's Address: Southwest College Research Institute, Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences, Tempe, AZ 85282-1751, USA.
Source: The Annals of pharmacotherapy. 2005 Apr; Vol. 39 (4), pp. 617-24. Date of Electronic Publication: 2005 Mar 01.
Publication Type: Clinical Trial; Journal Article; Randomized Controlled Trial
Language: English
Journal Information: Country of Publication: United States NLM ID: 9203131 ISSN: 1060-0280 Subsets: Health Administration; MEDLINE MeSH Terms: Pollen*/immunology
Allergens/*therapeutic use
Desensitization, Immunologic/*methods
Hay Fever/*therapy
Homeopathy/*methods
Adult; Allergens/immunology; Comparative Study; Double-Blind Method; Female; Hay Fever/immunology; Humans; Male; Middle Aged; Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't; Southwestern United States Abstract: BACKGROUND: Studies using homeopathy have reported beneficial effects from treating allergy-related conditions. OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effects of a homeopathic drug prepared from common allergens (tree, grass, weed species) specific to the Southwest region of the US. METHODS: A 4-week, double-blind clinical trial comparing homeopathic preparations with placebo was conducted in the Phoenix metropolitan area during the regional allergy season from February to May. Participants included 40 men and women, 26-63 years of age, diagnosed with moderate to severe seasonal allergic rhinitis symptoms. Study outcomes included allergy-specific symptoms using the rhinoconjunctivitis quality-of-life questionnaire (RQLQ), functional quality of life using the Medical Outcomes Study Short Form-36 (MOS SF-36), and the work productivity and activity impairment (WPAI) questionnaire. RESULTS: Scales from the RQLQ, MOS SF-36, and WPAI questionnaire showed significant positive changes from baseline to 4 weeks in the homeopathic group compared with the placebo group (p < 0.05). Subjects reported no adverse effects during the intervention period. CONCLUSIONS: These preliminary findings indicate potential benefits of the homeopathic intervention in reducing symptoms and improving quality of life in patients with seasonal allergic rhinitis in the Southwestern US.
Comments: Comment in: Ann Pharmacother. 2005 Apr;39(4):736-8. (PMID: 15741411)
CAS Registry Number: 0 (Allergens)
Entry Date(s): Date Created: 20050316 Date Completed: 20050527
Update Code: 20050529
PMID: 15741420 Database: MEDLINE

[BigMcLargehuge]

135. you should have bolded this instead

Author's Address: Southwest College Research Institute, Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences, Tempe, AZ 85282-1751, USA.

[K-W]

137. And even they only found preliminary potential. EOM

[Dora]

138. And would an oncologist publishing an oncology study

with an address at an oncology research firm be greeted with as much disdain?

:eyes:

[BigMcLargehuge]

146. considering....

an oncology research study would be testing the an identifyable chemical on a specific type of tumor (not symptoms of the tumor, the tumor itself), and the test would not be to find out if the patient felt better, but to determine the effects that the chemical had on the tumor. The test and results would then be published and duplicated with a larger study over and over again until the percentage of tumors that die from the chemical additive exceeds the percentage that die without the additive at a predicted rate or volume.

How is:

Southwest College Research Institute, Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine & Health Sciences, Tempe, AZ 85282-1751, USA.

a place specializing in medicine related solely to allergies?

And this is hardly definitive: "RESULTS: Scales from the RQLQ, MOS SF-36, and WPAI questionnaire showed significant positive changes from baseline to 4 weeks in the homeopathic group compared with the placebo group (p < 0.05). Subjects reported no adverse effects during the intervention period."

Is the doctor who oversees the study a published allergist, does the doctor have a formal degree in medicine, is he/she board certified to practice western medicine in Arizona? or is the "doctor" a crystal waving woo?

See if you can guess which catagory I think the doctor falls into...

[beam me up scottie]

139. It's slightly better than a placebo !!!

:rofl:

[Dora]

136. From MEDLINE search, #2

Title: Complementary and alternative pain therapy in the emergency
department.
Author(s): Dillard JN; Knapp S
Author's Address: Columbia University College of Physicians and
Surgeons, 630 West 168th Street, New York, NY 10032, USA.
Source: Emergency medicine clinics of North America. North Am] 2005 May; Vol. 23 (2), pp. 529-49.
Publication Type: Journal Article; Review; Review, Tutorial
Language: English
Journal Information: Country of Publication: United States NLM ID:
8219565 ISSN: 0733-8627 Subsets: MEDLINE
MeSH Terms: Emergency Service, Hospital*

Complementary Therapies/*methods

Emergency Medicine/*methods

Pain/*therapy

Dietary Supplements; Homeopathy/methods; Humans; Magnetics/therapeutic
use; Medicine, Ayurvedic; Medicine, Chinese Traditional/methods;
Mind-Body and Relaxation Techniques/methods; Musculoskeletal
Manipulations/methods; North America; Pain/physiopathology;
Pain/psychology; Palliative Care/methods; Phytotherapy/methods
Abstract: One primary reason patients go to emergency departments is for pain relief. Understanding the physiologic dynamics of pain, pharmacologic methods for treatment of pain, as well CAM therapies used in treatment of pain is important to all providers in emergency care. Asking patients about self-care and treatments used outside of the emergency department is an important part of the patient history. Complementary and alternative therapies are very popular for painful conditions despite the lack of strong research supporting some of their use. Even though evidenced-based studies that are double blinded and show a high degree of interrater observer reliability do not exist, patients will likely continue to seek out CAM therapies as a means of self-treatment and a way to maintain additional life control. Regardless of absolute validity of a therapy for some patients, it is the bottom line: "it seems to help my pain." Pain management distills down to a very simple endpoint, patient relief, and comfort. Sham or science, if the patient feels better, feels comforted, feels less stressed, and more functional in life and their practices pose no health risk, then supporting their CAM therapy creates a true wholistic partnership in their health care. CAM should be relatively inexpensive and extremely safe. Such is not always the case, as some patients have discovered with the use of botanicals. It becomes an imperative that all providers be aware of CAM therapies and informed about potential interactions and side effects when helping patients manage pain and explore adding CAM strategies for pain relief. The use of regulated breathing, meditation, guided imagery, or a massage for a pain sufferer are simple but potentially beneficial inexpensive aids to care that can be easily employed in the emergency department. Some CAM therapies covered here, while not easily practiced in the emergency department, exist as possibilities for exploration of patients after they leave, and may offer an improved sense of well-being and empowerment in the face of suffering and despair.The foundations of good nutrition, exercise, stress reduction, and reengagement in life can contribute much to restoring the quality of life to a pain patient. Adding nondrug therapies of physical therapy, cognitive-behavioral therapy, TENS, hypnosis, biofeedback, psychoanalysis, and others can complete the conventional picture. Adding in simple mind/body therapies, touch therapies, acupuncture, or others may be appropriate in select cases, and depending on the circumstances, may effect and enhance a conventional pain management program. Armed with an understanding of pain dynamics and treatments, practitioners can better meet patient needs, avoid serious side effects, and improve care when addressing pain management in the emergency department.
Number of References: 87
Entry Date(s): Date Created: 20050414 Date Completed: 20050607
Update Code: 20050609
PMID: 15829396
Database: MEDLINE

[beam me up scottie]

141. So even though they don't work, people still believe in them?

I could have told you that.

Actually, I think I did.

And so did a lot of other people.

Okay everybody, we'll just pretend that quackery works so that we don't upset the patients.
And at the same time, we'll let the quacks charge them millions of dollars for placebos.

Knowledge is power.
Stop trying to take us back to the dark ages.

[Dora]

147. I'm ignoring you for a while.

Intolerance is tiresome.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Ignoring seems to work for you. Like the facts and the truth.

[BigMcLargehuge]

148. again, you missed the key phrase

"Even though evidenced-based studies that are double blinded and show a high degree of interrater observer reliability do not exist..."

[Dora]

140. From MEDLINE search, #3

(edited to remove author's email info from abstract header)

Title: Homeopathy for menopausal symptoms in breast cancer survivors: a
preliminary randomized controlled trial.
Author(s): Jacobs J; Herman P; Heron K; Olsen S; Vaughters L
Author's Address: Department of Epidemiology, University of
Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine, Seattle, WA,
USA.
Source: The journal of alternative and complementary medicine : research
on paradigm, practice, and policy. 2005 Feb;
Vol. 11 (1), pp. 21-7.
Publication Type: Clinical Trial; Journal Article; Randomized
Controlled Trial
Language: English
Journal Information: Country of Publication: United States NLM ID:
9508124 ISSN: 1075-5535 Subsets: MEDLINE
MeSH Terms: Breast Neoplasms*

Survivors*

Homeopathy/*methods

Menopause/*drug effects

Adult; Analysis of Variance; Confidence Intervals; Double-Blind Method;
Female; Hot Flashes/drug therapy; Humans; Middle Aged; Odds Ratio; Pilot
Projects; Quality of Life; Questionnaires; Research Design; Research
Support, U.S. Gov't, Non-P.H.S.; Severity of Illness Index; Time
Factors; Treatment Outcome
Abstract: OBJECTIVES: To carry out a preliminary trial evaluating
the effectiveness of two types of homeopathy for the treatment of
menopausal symptoms in breast cancer survivors. DESIGN: Randomized,
double-blinded, placebo-controlled. SETTINGS/LOCATION: Private medical
clinic, Seattle, WA. SUBJECTS: Women with a history of breast cancer who
had completed all surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation treatment and who
had an average of at least three hot flashes per day for the previous
month. INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were randomized to receive either an
individualized homeopathic single remedy, a homeopathic combination
medicine, or placebo. Patients were seen by homeopathic providers every
2 months for 1 year. OUTCOME MEASURES: Hot flash frequency and severity,
Kupperman Menopausal Index (KMI), Short Form 36 (SF-36). RESULTS: There
was no significant difference found in the primary outcome measure, the
hot flash severity score, although there was a positive trend in the
single remedy group during the first 3 months of the study (p = 0.1). A
statistically significant improvement in general health score in both
homeopathy groups (p < 0.05) on the SF-36 after 1 year was found.
Evidence of a homeopathic "drug proving" in the subjects receiving the
homeopathic combination medicine who were not taking tamoxifen also was
found. CONCLUSIONS: Small sample size precludes definitive answers, but
results from this preliminary trial suggest that homeopathy may be of
value in the treatment of menopausal symptoms and improving quality of
life, especially in those women not on tamoxifen. Larger studies should
be carried out that also include healthy women who want to avoid hormone
replacement therapy.
Comments: Comment in: J Altern Complement Med. 2005 Feb;11(1):1-3.
(PMID: 15750355)
Entry Date(s): Date Created: 20050307 Date Completed: 20050524
Update Code: 20050526
PMID: 15750360
Database: MEDLINE

[K-W]

142. Alright this is getting silly.

CONCLUSIONS: Small sample size precludes definitive answers, but
results from this preliminary trial suggest that homeopathy may bevalue in the treatment of menopausal symptoms and improving quality of life, especially in those women not on tamoxifen

[Dora]

145. Silly is as silly does, IMHO

The persistent flagellation in this thread and yesterday's thread is farcical. Naysayers ask for studies, and I show you studies, but you don't like the studies I show you.

And preliminary trials of the cowpox vaccine showed that the vaccine may have been of value in preventing smallpox.

All research has a preliminary phase, all research has to come from somewhere, and all research can be criticized by people who want to criticize it whether they have grounds to or not... so go right ahead.

[Modem Butterfly]

150. Not all studies are created equal, Dora

The studies you've pulled have been pretty much crap. The first one is by a homeopathic "practicioner" working at a homeopathic institute and still doesn't even show that homeopathy is effective. The second study is nothing more than a re-statement of the very well documented placebo effect, and the third has an extremely small sample size and describes its own results as "inconclusive".

[K-W]

151. You arent showing us studies that prove anything.

You gave us two studies that proved nothing, but suggested the possibility that future studies would prove something and the other study you cited simply contained an opinion stating that even if these treatments arent proven they should be used anyway.

You have not presented a study that proves effectiveness.

And preliminary trials of the cowpox vaccine showed that the vaccine may have been of value in preventing smallpox.

By that logic all preliminary results should be assumed to be true. Is that what you think?

All research has a preliminary phase, all research has to come from somewhere, and all research can be criticized by people who want to criticize it whether they have grounds to or not... so go right ahead.

First off, these werent just preliminary tests, they were also inconclusive and offered only qualified hope that future tests would be conclusive. So your harping on the preliminary misses most of the point.

Secondly, nobody is critisizing them because they are preliminary. We are critising you for trying to use preliminary, non-conclusive studies to prove something.

[beam me up scottie]

143. It's water. Do you understand that? W A T E R. Homeopathy is a joke.

Try reading the dilution ratios in post #43, and then let us know how plain water can treat and/or cure disease.

[Dora]

156. Citation: International Pharmaceutical Abstracts

edited to remove author's email address.


Author: Wustrow, TP; Otovowen Study Grp
Author Affiliation: Reprints: Wustrow HNO Gemeinschaftspraxis, Wittelsbacher Pl 1, D-80333 Munich, Germany ; ENT Associates, Munich, Germany
Source: International Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics (Germany), Feb 2004, vol. 42, pp. 110-119
Publication Year: 2004
Language: English
Abstract: Objectives: Evidence from clinical trials questions the benefit-risk ratio of first-line antibiotic treatment for uncomplicated acute otitis media in childhood. Alternative treatment strategies are very popular but have not been the subject of larger controlled clinical trials. This trial compares an alternative with a conventional treatment strategy for acute otitis media. Methods and patients: 390 children aged 1 - 10 years presenting with uncomplicated acute otitis media participated in a prospective, open, non-randomized, controlled, parallel-group study. According to self-assignment of investigators, children were treated either conventionally (free combinations of decongestant nose drops, mucolytics, analgesics and antibiotics) or alternatively with Otovowen(R) (fixed combination of plant-based tinctures and homeopathic potencies), supplemented by conventional medications when considered necessary. Results: Alternatively treated patients (n - 192) had significantly less severe otoscopic findings and clinical symptom ratings at baseline than children treated in conventional centers (n = 193). Patients cared for by conventional therapists took more antibiotics (80.5% vs. 14.4%; chi<SUP>2</SUP>-teSt, p < 0.001) and analgesics (66.8% vs. 53.2%; chi<SUP>2</SUP>-test, p = 0.007). Times to recovery were 5.3 +/- 2.4 and 5.1 +/- 2.2 days for alternative and conventional treatment, respectively. Odds ratios (OR) with a lower limit of 1-sided 97.5% confidence interval (CI) were 0.98 (0.76), 0.95 (0.73) and 0.88 (0.69) for results adjusted to baseline otoscopy, pain and symptom score, respectively (Cox-Mantel test). Absence from school or preschool nursery was 1.7 days in both groups; ORs (CI) were 1.00 (0.76), 0.96 (0.73) and 1.04 (0.80). Non-inferiority of alternative treatment (CI limit of OR above 0.696) was not proven for pain resolution (-5.2 vs. -5.8 score points); OR (CI) were 0.87 (0.68), 1.15 (0.87) and 0.74 (0.58). Alternative treatment was judged both by doctors (Mann-Whitney estimator with 2-sided 95% CI 0.41 (0.35 - 0.47)) and parents (0.42 (0.36 - 0.48)), to be significantly better tolerated than conventional treatment. Conclusions: In primary care management of uncomplicated acute otitis media in childhood, an alternative treatment strategy based on the natural medicine, Otovowen may substantially reduce the use of antibiotics without disadvantage to the clinical outcome.
Descriptors: Otovowen--otitis media; Drug comparisons--alternative medicine and antibiotics; Drug comparisons--antibiotics and alternative medicine; Alternative medicine--otovowen; Otitis media--otovowen; Toxicity--otovowen; Pediatrics--otovowen; Antibiotics--otitis media; Homeopathy--otitis media; Alternative medicine--homeopathy; Pediatrics--otitis media; Toxicity--homeopathy; Toxicity--antibiotics
References: 27
ISSN: 09461965
CODEN: IJCPB5
Human Indicator: Yes
Section Heading: Drug Evaluations; Toxicity; Sociology, Economics and Ethics
Publication Date: 20040201
Accession Number: 41-08002
Database: International Pharmaceutical Abstracts

[Dora]

157. I see the light.

This isn't a thread, it's a circle jerk, and I won't be the pit man.

I'm disappointed to see that there is so much intolerance and disdain from members whose opinions and posts I've enjoyed reading and learned from.

My solemn vow: to stay out of discussions like this with skeptics and haters and to continue to attend to my own health as I see fit, exercising my critical thinking skills to make decisions based on personal experience, anecdotal experience from those I trust, and medical opinion.

[beam me up scottie]

160. Don't forget to drink lots of water!

:hi:

[salvorhardin]

163. No need to actually drink water

By the reasoning used by quacks promoting maigc water, just inhaling the water vapor in the Earth's atmosphere should do the trick. In fact, that should make you immortal since every breath you take has been exposed to every chemical on the planet at one time or another. The water remembers, right? :-)

[Beetwasher]

187. "Water Sleeps"

Sorry, inside joke from some books I'm reading.

[woo me with science]

190. how about "remembering" drinking water?

that should work.

[Orsino]

276. ...or just talk to anyone who remembers having drunk water. n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

164. It's difficult to be wrong

The fact of the matter is that while some elements of alternative medicine are more debatable than others, homeopathy is really the bottom of the barrel, science-wise. It's no fun to be wrong, but do remember that presenting an idea or argument in a public forum is a de facto way of inviting discussion and even criticism of that idea or argument. You may very well encounter other people who want to see some the proof behind your argument, and in submitting that proof, you are also opening up that documentation to discussion and even criticism. It's a risk we all take: other people might think you're wrong, and they could be right. That doesn't make someone a "hater" or "intolerant", it just means they have a different opinion than you and aren't shy about voicing it.

One last note: please don't consider anecdotal "evidence". Just because someone says something worked for them does not mean it will work for you (or even that it actually worked for them). For instance, a friend of mine told me that horse chestnut really helped with her orthostatic edema and I should try it for PMS. It actually put me in the hospital. And my friend hadn't actually tried horse chestnut at all, but a different herb altogether.

[K-W]

165. Apparently disagreeing with you is the same as being intolerant. EOM

[Terran]

177. Dora is right

You haven't just disagreed, you've been part of a self-congratulatory circle-jerk (funny, I had exactly the same image as Dora but wasn't going to use it, but since she did...) that has been insulting in the highest degree to those of us with different views. There is disagreement and there is intolerance, and it's not hard to see the difference.

A hundred years ago, you would have been one of those smug dorks who laughed at people who talked about visiting the moon.

[lazarus]

186. No, actually

we're the smug dorks who put people on the moon. You know, "scientists". The same smug dorks who gave you electricity and the internet and computers. You know, the thing you're using to criticise us "smug dorks".

[woo me with science]

192. excellent response nt

[MsTryska]

265. Frankly i think you give yourself too much credit....

from where i sit - you'd be the people too intent on not "thinking out of the box" to come up with something like putting someone on the moon.


better yet - i'll go a step past terran and say y'all would be the Church putting a fatwa on Copernicus.


How dare you say the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth?! Modern Science proves it! Yeah sure the magical stars tell you that - did the stars tell you anything else interesting?!

[lazarus]

266. LOL

Yeah, sure. Skeptics question things.

That's how change happens. You see, people for years didn't believe that man could fly. Skeptics questioned that. Because skeptics used that ol' debbil science, turns out flight works.


You seem to have no understanding of skepticism or science. Skeptics don't just deny everything. We question everything. That's why science has progressed to the level it has today. Without skepticism and a questioning spirit, we'd all still be wondering why that monster ate the sun, instead of appreciating the beauty of an eclipse.

We'd be wondering why the gods won't provide rain, instead of understanding weather patterns.

Copernicus was a skeptic. Sheesh.

[MsTryska]

267. you'd be surprised at what i do know about skepticism and science....

here in this thread there are people saying this, that, the other remedy does work - and providing empricial evidence.



you choose to either ignore their personal experiences, or tell them they're idiots that have bought into the BS.


on what basis do you take that position, other than your pre-conceived notions?



and copernicus wasn't a skeptic - he was an observer, and someone brave enough to believe what his eyes told him despite what the "science" of the day purported to be the truth.

[lazarus]

269. Sigh

All I know about your knowledge is what's been demonstrated in this thread.

I haven't ignored anyone's experiences, or told anyone they're an idiot. Feel free to point out where I've done the latter.

As for ignoring experiences, empirical evidence is meaningless in scientific research. There have been many studies that show homeopathy is nonsense. No studies show it is efficacious at all. Heck, basic logic shows it to be a crock.

So, the basis on which I take the position that homeopathy is a crock is twofold: Logic, and repeated scientific studies demonstrating that fact.

On what basis do you take the position that all these scientific studies are wrong, other than your own pre-conceived notions?

Oh, and if you knew a single thing about skepticism, you would never have typed, "...and copernicus wasn't a skeptic - he was an observer, and someone brave enough to believe what his eyes told him despite what the "science" of the day purported to be the truth."

That demonstrates complete ignorance of what it means to be a skeptic.

edited for a quick grammar fix

[MsTryska]

270. I was using "you" as the collective...

it's unfair of me to hang the rest of the like-minded's actions on you.

i do agree that empricial evidence isn't pure scientific method - but to dismiss someone'sempirical evidence as ludicruous essentially dismisses that that person has a brain of their own, that works well.

much better to say hmm...maybe there's soemthign to this and then doing the research.

And if you are unable to do the research, prolly best to keep it zipped until someone who is able to do the research does it for you.


it's easy to point to this study or that study to confirm your view on things.


broccoli causes cancer - broccoli cures cancer - low-carb diets work, low-carb diets don't work, blah blah blah ad nauseum.

One can find a scientific "study" to prove any position they choose to hold.

But at that point one has to evaluate who has what to lose by doing researhc to support a specific position - and then to evaluate how they set up their studies to prove out the hypothesis.

There's so much more to being a skeptic than just saying well "this person with these initials behind his name printed this in this journal so it must be true".

[lazarus]

271. Yeah, except

There have now been four studies that showed homeopathy is a complete crock, to go along with the basic logic that anyone should be able to understand.

How many studies show any efficacy at all? None so far.

Which means your examples are specious. There is no controversy here, except for the fact that some people simply can't accept that homeopathy is a fraud.

[MsTryska]

272. that's incorrect.....

there were a few posted yesterday that did in fact show efficacy of homeopathic studies - nothing earth-shattering - but there were affects seen.


As soemone above said - it's difficult to construct an allopathic study to truly evaluate homeopathy without great time and expense.

I'm sure it could be done if soemone wanted to fund it.

but i think part of the problem is that those who have an interest in disproving homoepathy don't care enough or know enough to put the effort in to devising a well-thought out study, and those who believe homeopathy works don't feel the need to prove themselves to the Allopaths.


that being said - i did post a link below from the New Scientist in which a scientist did preliminary studies on whether water had "memory" or not, and it appears that it does - granted this is preliminary and the study itself needs to be tightened up.

But that was in 2003 - as far as I know the guy in question could still be doing his study, or had to put it on hold because the grant money wasn't there for it.

He did build off a study done by the Koreans tho - which also found the idea of water memory. The link to that is on the same page i linked to.

[lazarus]

273. No

every one of the "studies" posted was debunked, immediately.

And if water has memory, enjoy drinking urine, because that's what you're doing every time you take a drink.

Right?

Either way, I'm pretty much done with this discussion. You don't seem to have read the thread very well, as you're referring to points that have already been dealt with, and are ignoring points that haven't been. I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to redo the entire thread with someone who thinks water has memory.

What a silly, inane idea.

[MsTryska]

274. so.....

i should believe you?

or the guy who used to homeopathic techniques and thermoluminescense to prove out a hypothesis?



i'll go with him since he took the time.

here's the link btw:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817


enjoy drinking the pee!

[lazarus]

279. That's from 2003

So, was it ever actually published? And was it ever actually reproduced?

Since many scientists have taken the time to disprove the claim, over and over and over, I'll go with them.

[MsTryska]

283. yes it was published...

in the very journal the article mentioned it was being published in.


as for whether anythign enw has been done - are you aware of how long it takes for people to do studies, and get to the point where they publish?

you're looking at a lifecycle of minimum 12 months - as for whether he's working on it or if anyone else has reproduced - i don't know. nor do i have the time to go looking - feel free to look for yourself, if you'd like.

[beam me up scottie]

188. Really? Perhaps you've forgotten your deleted posts from yesterday?

And this post in particular:

I should have known better
than to spend my afternoon arguing with people who assert that articles published in respected British medical journals are "anecdotal evidence". None of you are going to convince me that what I know myself to be true, objectively, over years of experience, is incorrect.

Why don't you all go join a monestary or something? Your tolerance for intellectual uncertainty would suit you well in such a place.

[beam me up scottie]

189. Here's another of your oh-so-tolerant posts from yesterday:

No, sorry, it's not over the top.
I've never seen so many deliberately dumb statements on a thread before. Well, maybe I have, but this one is in the top five.

[K-W]

211. I could say the exact same things about you, it is pure rhetoric. nt

[HuckleB]

229. But, but...

in this discussion, isn't following an outdated, unproven treatment theory like the folks who wouldn't be convinced that the earth was flat, that humans could create flying machines, etc...?

[woo me with science]

191. "skeptics and haters"?

I don't see anyone getting anywhere near hate here except you, by making that strange equivalence.

I see people trying to talk about the difference between science and belief. It is an important difference. The loss of that distinction is why we are reduced to arguing about the place of "intelligent design" in science classrooms now.

[derby378]

232. And I'm a card-carrying skeptic, too

I got no hatred for homeopaths - in fact, I find the history of the American Institute of Homeopathy rather interesting.

But, on the other hand, I don't think my tax dollars should go towards funding unproven medical treatments, either.

That's my short answer - the long answer is too long for now.

[ArkDem]

166. The people that believe in it don't care about scientific facts.

[beam me up scottie]

172. Oy.

That is now becoming painfully obvious. :banghead:

[Gelliebeans]

204. WE DON'T NEED NO STINIKING FACTS

where have I heard that before hmmm.... :evilgrin:

Make believe medicine is great as long as you are only suffering from a make believe disease.

[beam me up scottie]

205. Sounds like you have to BELIEVE

or it won't work.

Yup, sounds awfully familiar.

[Gelliebeans]

206. I don't have that luxury

darling ;)

[SidDithers]

199. I've got nothing to say...

I just wanted to be the 200th post in this thread :)

:toast:

Sid

[SidDithers]

200. And now I have to reply to my own post to do it

Jeez, must be Friday :)

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

203. *snort*

This has been a fun thread, hasn't it?

I could have kissed Moggie for letting us know about this LANCET article that just made the news TODAY!

It's good to know that the FSM is looking out for his beloved skeptics, eh?

[SidDithers]

207. Sure has...

I loved that link to the dilution ratios too. We can have lots of fun with that one.

:hi:

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

212. Those are very useful factoids.

Hard to argue with those numbers.
But some will always try.
:evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

220. More evidence, along with the creationism brou-ha-ha, of the low level of

understanding in the population of science, and how science works.

If you dilute something to the point where not one molecule remains of the original substance being diluted, what do you have left? Water. Hey, water is good for you. But you shouldn't pay $3 bucks a ml for it.

Now, I'm a Northern California hippie type. I'm the first to admit that some herbal remedies may be right on. Modern western medicine -where it stands right now- doesn't have all the answers. I do believe that there are levels of interconnectedness to reality and, in particular, organic systems to which certain "alternative" concepts or holistic approaches may be more suited to dealing with than our western, reductionist approach, or at least used complementarially to potentially beneficial effect.

But, that said, everything I know about "homeopathy" leads me to be incontrivertably convinced that it's utter bullshit. (Of course, placebos can work, too.)

[nuxvomica]

238. A very biased article

The second sentence, for example, asserts a religious aspect to the practice without offering any explanation. I would like to know what trials were included in this analysis because homeopathy doesn't do very well in trials involving a single condition and remedy. That's contrary to classical practice. Regardless, I'd say this is probably not the end of homeopathy as long as so many people enjoy the benefits of it.

[beam me up scottie]

239. Water doesn't do very well in trials for any condition except thirst.

It's just water but if people want to keep paying for it, more power to them.
As long as I don't have to foot the bill, that is.

[HuckleB]

244. So what set of conditions does homeopathy do well treating in trials?

:shrug:

And what benefits do they get that they couldn't get from, say, a carrot, if someone claimed that eating a carrot provided the same cure as a homeopathic remedy?

[nuxvomica]

247. An appropriate trial would be complex and expensive

For chronic illness, homeopathy requires a complete casetaking of the individual's symptoms in order to determine the correct remedy, of which more than 2,000 are generally available. A large trial would involve multiple homeopaths, a one to two hour casetaking session per patient and perhaps another hour of analysis to determine the remedy. For acutes, the analysis is less detailed and takes much less time but still there would not be just one remedy in use.
I have read of one study in which arnica was used to treat arthritis pain with very poor results. Unfortunately, arnica is not even the preferred remedy for such pain, which is rhus tox. But depending on the patient's symptom picture, any number of other remedies would be the correct choice. That is the type of study that would be unfair. So if any of the studies examined were set up the same as a pharmaceutical test trial, I would consider the results inconclusive, as would, I'd expect, most classically trained homeopaths.
Regardless, my own experience with homeopathy has proven to me that it is effective, at least for me, so I don't much care about whether it is proved scientifically.

[HuckleB]

248. How is what you describe different from the trials already done?

:shrug:

Have you actually the read the peer-reviewed journal pieces reporting on the trials already done?

Again, why not try carrot therapy? It works just as well, and it's a a whole lot cheaper! It works for everyone who tries it! I swear!

[nuxvomica]

249. No I haven't.

Please describe them if you have.

[HuckleB]

250. Describe them?

I'm not anyone's flunky. And, yes, I've read the Lancet piece and noted prior studies, as I spend time almost every day connected online to a Health Science library with access to these journals.

The one above is in the current Lancet. Go and read it -- yeah, you might have to go to the library. In the literature review for this study, you'll find the references to previous studies. Please don't ask me to do your homework for you. You've posted to criticize these studies by assuming that they didn't do certain things without actually having read them, and leaves your criticism in an assumptive void. I'm asking you to do what you should have done in the first place before making such assumptions.

[nuxvomica]

257. I have not criticized the study, only the article

I said the article was biased due the characterization of homeopathy as "cult-like". I made no assumptions but rather cautioned that some studies, like the arnica one to which I referred, are inappropriate for homeopathy. If such trials were the basis of the Lancet report, then I said I would consider them inconclusive.

[HuckleB]

261. Let's look at your post # 247.

You clearly made assumptions about this study and others without having read them. Let's not pretend otherwise.

[nuxvomica]

264. OK. Point out the clear assumption I made about this study.

I don't see it.

[HuckleB]

293. You have to be playing games.

You wrote:

----------
"An appropriate trial would be complex and expensive

For chronic illness, homeopathy requires a complete casetaking of the individual's symptoms in order to determine the correct remedy, of which more than 2,000 are generally available. A large trial would involve multiple homeopaths, a one to two hour casetaking session per patient and perhaps another hour of analysis to determine the remedy. For acutes, the analysis is less detailed and takes much less time but still there would not be just one remedy in use."
----------


That clearly says that you don't believe that any of the studies that have shown homeopathy to be worthless have done the things you claim. Yet, you hadn't read them, so you didn't have the information you needed to write such a post.

Can you please engage in honest discussion without the games from now on?

[nuxvomica]

294. Let me explain this one more time

I was describing what I thought would be the constraints of an appropriate trial in answer to one of your questions. I am not playing games and I am not making assumptions of studies I haven't read. If you can show me in my actual writing where I have done that, please do. Otherwise, please refrain from unfounded accusations about my intent.

[HuckleB]

299. You mean let you spin it for me one more time.

You got called to the mat for making statements that you are in no position to make. Just admit what you did, correct and move on. The excuses are not helping your case. My accusations have been founded quite clearly. Just because you like to make excuses for your behavior doesn't mean your behavior is ok.

[MsTryska]

305. can you prove in the studies you cite that this has been done?

i looked at most cited here, and I would agree with Nux Vomica.


homeopathy is a different modality than allopathic medicine and such a proper study would require using homeopathy's modality. not allopathy.

[MsTryska]

268. Magical Water Memory - why, that's impossible......

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817


"Claims do not come much more controversial than the idea that water might retain a memory of substances once dissolved in it. The notion is central to homeopathy, which treats patients with samples so dilute they are unlikely to contain a single molecule of the active compound, but it is generally ridiculed by scientists.

Holding such a heretical view famously cost one of France's top allergy researchers, Jacques Benveniste, his funding, labs and reputation after his findings were discredited in 1988.

Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?"

The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.

[lazarus]

280. But wait, there's more!

Martin Chaplin from London's South Bank University, an expert on water and hydrogen bonding, is not so sure. "Rey's rationale for water memory seems most unlikely," he says. "Most hydrogen bonding in liquid water rearranges when it freezes."

He points out that the two thermoluminescence peaks Rey observed occur around the temperatures where ice is known to undergo transitions between different phases. He suggests that tiny amounts of impurities in the samples, perhaps due to inefficient mixing, could be getting concentrated at the boundaries between different phases in the ice and causing the changes in thermoluminescence.

In the intervening two years, has anyone managed to reproduce the results?

[MsTryska]

282. and even more after that....

crazy!


"But thermoluminescence expert Raphael Visocekas from the Denis Diderot University of Paris, who watched Rey carry out some of his experiments, says he is convinced. "The experiments showed a very nice reproducibility," he told New Scientist. "It is trustworthy physics." He see no reason why patterns of hydrogen bonds in the liquid samples should not survive freezing and affect the molecular arrangement of the ice."


as for what's been done in the intervening years - i have no idea - maybe you should drop a line to the guy and see if he's still working on it or not.

[lazarus]

284. I really don't care

You have managed to find one preliminary study that may or may not show "water memory". Compared to 4 definitive studies that show homeopathy doesn't work. Plus basic logic.

If it's not reproduceable, it's not valid. Carry on.

[PurgedVoter]

290. Not reproducible does not mean not existent.

If you can't reproduce something that often means you don't have the experiment right. Just because you can't grow corn without water, that is not proof that corn won't grow.
There are lot's of things in this world that work just fine without ever being proved. I have a lot of respect for science, but scientists have proved a lot of silly things. Basic logic works fine as long as you stay with sticks and rocks. When you start to look at minute quantities, your going to have to step off comfortable ground. Fact is that if you start studying the physics of the small, you will have to learn all about uncertainty, French lamp light, firing swiss watches at brick walls to see how they work, and knowing just what something is and as a result being unable to find it. The 'definitive studies' I just love that term, don't show that homeopathy doesn't work. It just shows that the homeopathic medicine in used in these studies, is no better than the stuff they put in the placebo. Anyone who has a grasp on science should be able to grasp that. In truth the hypothesis that homeopathy doesn't work is strongly supported by this research. To make this a theory, you are going to have to shoot down a lot more homeopathic medicines. You will never extinguish the possibility that homeopathic medicine works. By the nature of science you cannot entirely disprove it. If you want to prove something, either try to prove a positive, or stick to math. It's a lot cleaner. I personally doubt most homeopathic medicines are greatly useful. I've spent near to 300 bucks trying a range of them for various ailments ever since the first one worked out so well. I have had no special results from any of them. It seems like high priced water to me. But I will pay 9 to 12 bucks a pop for a small bottle of Bioallers once or twice a year. It works for me like nothing else ever did.

[PurgedVoter]

288. Did ya'll forgit Erwin Schrödinger's half-dead cat?

Anybody round here ever done one of them there light slit experiments? It ain't hard to do. Don't need a lot of learnin' to know that one photon can make a lot of waves. For a few hunerd or less if your handy, you can prove that one photon can run intermafeerance with itself. When you start looking into quantum physics you run into a lot of stuff that don't work quite right. Least ways not the way someone who is diluting a single molecule solution down and thinking he's going to have one cup with one molecule in it and one cup without. While I have spent most of my life at the bottom of a gravity well and don't get out much relatively speaking, I wouldn't bet that quantum entanglement is that damn rare when you're talking a whole gram of water. 3.76 times 10 to the 22 power is a lot of room for quantum play. Keep in mind that rock and roll can cause plasma in water, or at least tiny bubble that go away making plasma. If you put a single bit of table salt, NaCl, for them that want to be precise, in a cup of pure water, all evidence is that it spits up into two toxic atoms but they still keep each other from getting all rowdy. In fact theres evidence that those two bits of pure poison, make the pure water a little bit less toxic. So diluting somtin down to nutin don't mean you ain't got nutin there!

[MsTryska]

297. well there you go. *lol*

i think it's funny that there's so many people who clearly have no experience with Scientific Method interpreting study results that neither confirm nor deny outcomes specifically.


what many people here are reading in study outcomes are very different from what i'm reading. Looking at the whole studies (or what one can find) - i see no definitive answers.

What I do see is a certain push/pull within the research community.

[PurgedVoter]

301. At last someone that gets it!

Years ago a parapsychology researcher studied the effects of pyramids on razors and other stuff. His results were widely published as proof of the magic of pyramids. The funny part was that Bill Tiller, the researcher didn't think the research showed that at all. He felt like his papers had been cherry picked through by believers that wanted something. Last I heard he gave up the pyramid research. He became convinced that pyramids had qualities that made consistent research more difficult.^-^

[MsTryska]

303. Isn't that what happens on a regualr basis?

I mentioned that up-top soemwhere that one can find a study to support damn near any belief they hold if they look hard enough.

[PurgedVoter]

304. Thats why peer review is nice,

Then again peer review supported lumineferous either (I still love this theory, it is attractive if wrong. :) It also supported spontaneous generation, although on the spontaneous generation front, I'm convinced that it happened at least once. Just a theory that.