I believe the death toll is a lot greater than 1874

[madokie]

as is reported in this morning paper. How would a person get a true number, a verifiable number. If it could be done the war in Iraq will come to a screeching halt. I read from time to time here on DU, Truthout, etc, that the number is larger than 8000. Imagine them telling us its shy of 2000 when actually its like 4 times that. I personally don't have the stomach for it and neither do a lot of others.

[MildyRules]

1. Isn't there a DUer here

who closely tracks the numbers and who says that any number other than the 1874 is pure bunk?

[unhappycamper]

5. LynnTheDem & frictionlessO work on the ICCC site.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

There have been numerous threads questioning the validity of the ICCC count; all have been debunked.

[MildyRules]

8. That's right

I've read Lynn's work...she really has her stuff together.

[converted_democrat]

25. Okay, I have a question........

I DO believe that the number of dead are correct, however, I had a discussion with someone the other day, and he raised this question in my mind. What about all the soldiers from SA? This guys son is stationed at Mc Dill, (I met him at the Sheehan Vigil) and he said that there have been a large number of people recruited from South America, because Americans are unwilling to sign up. Most of the time they do not speak English and they have no family in the States. How would we know that these are being counted properly? --Let me be clear, Lynnthedem explained the other stuff to me and I have all the faith in the world in her, and her explanation. I trust her. I was just curious about this angle, because I hadn't thought or asked about it before. Any ideas?

[pointblank]

2. I brought this up the other day

in a thread.

I stated that I had heard that the actual death toll was much higher than what was being reported because the media wasn't counting the deaths of soldiers AFTER they had lef t battlefield and been in the hospital in Germany or the states.

I was told that the number, 1874, was accurate by many posters...but I am still skeptical.

[MildyRules]

7. I'm sure those soldiers are being counted

Don't you think there families and loved ones would point it out if they weren't? Even the Air Force and Army times lists the names, locations, and dates of all the war dead. I know many large newspapers do the same. It's not like they can hide it.

[JuniperLea]

17. Wars and rumors of wars...

You can't blame someone for not believing something we are told by our government. The story keeps changing so how can you know what to believe. Truth doesn't change; the Iraq war story changes faster than tires at the Indy 500.

[tx_dem41]

18. Go to the site linked in post #5, and you will shockingly find that

such deaths are reported within the 1874.

[SidDithers]

21. from icasualties.org...

Listing of servicemembers who have died outside of Iraq.

08/10/05 Benson, Michael A. Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb USA
08/05/05 Ball Jr., Terry W. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
08/04/05 Simon, Chad J. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
07/14/05 Hines Jr., Timothy J. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
06/21/05 Milev, Marin Milev Non-hostile - vehicle accident (drowning) Germany
06/13/05 Mattek Jr., John J. Hostile - hostile fire - explosion USA
06/03/05 Mendoza, Antonio Hostile - hostile fire - explosion USA
05/24/05 Collins, Randy D. Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack USA
05/22/05 Seesan, Aaron N. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Germany
05/11/05 Schmidt III, John T. Hostile - hostile fire - explosion USA
05/10/05 Bordelon, Michael J. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
05/02/05 Little, Tommy S. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
04/12/05 Dickens, Tyler J. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack (?) USA
04/09/05 LaWare, Casey M. Non-hostile - building fire Germany
03/04/05 Garceau, Seth K. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Germany
03/03/05 Jones, Michael D. Non-hostile - illness USA
01/04/05 Washington, Bennie J. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack USA
12/29/04 Nelson, Craig L. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
12/09/04 Renehan, Kyle J. Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack Germany
12/01/04 Pena, Javier Obleas-Prado Hostile - hostile fire Germany
11/27/04 Smith, Michael A. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper USA
11/24/04 Nolte, Nicholas S. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
11/23/04 Edinger, Benjamin C. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
11/20/04 Heredia, Joseph J. Hostile - hostile fire Germany
11/20/04 Welke, Joseph T. Hostile - hostile fire Germany
11/19/04 Downey, Michael A. Hostile - hostile fire - sniper USA
11/07/04 McVey, Otie Joseph Non-hostile - illness USA
10/22/04 Gadsden, Jonathan E. Hostile - hostile fire USA
10/13/04 Baker, Ronald W. Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb Germany
10/03/04 Pettaway Jr., James L. Non-hostile - vehicle accident USA
09/30/04 Nolan, Allen Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
09/28/04 Prewitt, Tyler D. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack Germany
09/19/04 Adams, Brandon E. Hostile - hostile fire - grenade USA
08/09/04 Houghton, Andrew R. Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack USA
08/05/04 McCune, Donald R. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Germany
07/21/04 Engel, Mark E. Hostile - hostile fire USA
07/15/04 Mardis Jr., Paul C. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
07/02/04 Martin, Stephen G. Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb USA
06/03/04 Bolding, Todd J. Hostile - hostile fire Germany
05/18/04 Chaney, William D. Non-hostile - illness Germany
05/08/04 Holmes, James J. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Germany
04/22/04 Dunham, Jason L. Hostile - hostile fire USA
04/20/04 Fox, Bradley C. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack Germany
03/20/04 Vega, Michael W. Hostile - vehicle accident USA
03/19/04 Matthews, Clint Richard "Bones" Non-hostile - vehicle accident Germany
03/18/04 Sutphin, Ernest Harold Non-hostile - vehicle accident Germany
01/05/04 Frist, Luke P. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
12/02/03 Young, Ryan C. Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack USA
11/20/03 Tyrrell, Scott Matthew Non-hostile - ordnance accident USA
11/08/03 Jimenez, Linda C. Non-hostile - accidental fall USA
11/06/03 Fisher, Paul F. Hostile - helicopter crash (missile attack) Germany
10/01/03 Ramos, Tamarra J. Non-hostile - unspecified injury USA
09/16/03 Pinkston, Foster Non-hostile - illness USA
09/07/03 Thompson, Jarrett B. Non-hostile - vehicle accident USA
08/17/03 Ivory, Craig S. Non-hostile - illness - heat related Germany
08/14/03 Kirchhoff, David M. Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Germany
08/06/03 Colunga, Zeferino E. Non-hostile - illness - acute leukemia Germany
07/12/03 Neusche, Joshua M. Non-hostile - illness - pneumonia? Germany
07/08/03 McKinley, Robert L. Non-hostile - illness - heatstroke Germany
07/04/03 Coons, James Curtis Non-hostile - suicide USA
06/18/03 Latham, William T. Hostile - hostile fire USA
06/01/03 Lambert, Jonathan W. Non-hostile - vehicle accident Germany
04/24/03 Jenkins, Troy David Hostile - hostile fire - bomb Germany

As you can see, to say they're not being counted would be incorrect.

Sid

[magnetism]

30. If you trust fellow posters here

and they keep telling you that 1874 is accurate, why are you still skeptical? It is NOT healthy.

[pointblank]

See my post below. Thanks!

[pointblank]

36. dupe

[smurfygirl]

3. me too....

not believing it for a minute

[K-W]

4. As far as I know,

The death count is higher than that number, but not by that much. There are soldiers who die after they return who dont get counted, but most of the deaths are counted.

Its not like hiding deaths is an easy thing to do. Its nearly impossible.

[unhappycamper]

9. More BS.

If a soldier is wounded in Iraq and passes away elsewhere, he is counted in the ICCC totals. Follow the link "Fatalities after leaving Iraq" under "Fatality Details."

[K-W]

15. That really isnt what I was referring to, but it isnt important. EOM

[Qanisqineq]

6. Here we go again

PLEASE check out this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3688105

[pointblank]

10. OK

I believe it.

I just wouldn't put something like hiding deaths past these fucks, thats all.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HereSince1628]

12. I personally think the military deaths are close to this number

but those numbers don't include "civilian contractors." I have no idea how many mercenaries have been killed, but, my guess is that they have also suffered from 1-3% of their total force.

I'm more concerned that 2 numbers that are being intentionally under reported, and, based on the few reports we get, they seem elevated compared to Vietnam and earlier conflicts:

the high proportion of the wounded who have serious head wounds and loss of limbs,

and the proportion of returning veterans who suffer PTSD and other mental disorders.

[unhappycamper]

14. ICCC has partial reporting of contractor fatalities.

There is no requirement that private firms report deaths.

[SidDithers]

13. This issue gets raised every week here...

Please bookmark this post, so that you'll be able to help others understand why this belief is incorrect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3688105

Sid

[tx_dem41]

16. Sigh....not this illogical canard again.

Think, people, think!!!!!!!

[JuniperLea]

20. Now, now...

Don't' condescend. Remember, you are asking people to believe something the government is telling us. It is just as hard to believe that what we are being told the truth as it is hard to believe the numbers, even if substantiated. They may be correct numbers. They are still being told to us by liars. I think it is human nature to question everything those bastards are telling us.

[tx_dem41]

26. No....I am not being asked to believe something the government is ...

telling us. I am being asked to believe that (assuming the 8000 number), that close to 100,000 people (many, many, many of which have no connection to the Government) are wittingly part of a conspiracy or just plain stupid. I am being asked to believe that not 1 of those 100,000 people have never noticed that their loved one/friend/acquaintance is not on the official list.

If you want to believe that ....feel free.

[JuniperLea]

29. So what?

So maybe this person who asked a simple question hadn't thought it through! It's still no reason to be condescending and rude. If you want to believe it is a reason, feel free.

[madokie]

19. Sorry, I was just asking

[JuniperLea]

22. And no one should blame you for it

If you don't know, you have to ask. I think those comments made to you were mean and uncalled for. With all the condescension, you'd think this was a Xtian message board:)

[SidDithers]

24. No apology needed...

and you're obviously new enough not to have seen the threads that endlessly question this same rumour.

Welcome to DU!

Sid

[KyndCulture]

23. That number is totally bunk.

I interviewed an Army medic, just home from Iraq, for our radio show about a month ago, and he told me that if they get a pulse, no matter the condition of the person, they do not count. He told me that if they die on the board on the way to the ambulance the pentagon does not count them. So yes, the number is way higher than that. The guy I interviewed told me it was closer to 5000 American KIAs.

Are we surprised that the pentagon is not reporting the actual numbers?

[SidDithers]

27. Can your medic friend please supply the name...

of a servicemember who has died who doesn't appear at icasualties.org?

Please, just one name will do.

Thanks,

Sid

[tx_dem41]

28. Sigh, go to the site referenced in post #5, and see many deaths

that happened in hospitals in Germany, San Antonio, or home-bound ships. And then, go back to that Army medic and ask him/her why they are either lying or passing easily debunked rumors.

And then ask yourself (especially if you are a journalist), why you accepted this assertion without doing any checking on it.

[KyndCulture]

32. I didn't say I broadcast the interview.

All I am saying is what he told me seems pretty realistic. He is not yet out of the service, not until the end of September and will not let me use his name until he is out. I am just saying this is what he told me and I'm inclined to believe him. This is not the only person I've heard this from.

Where are the wounded reports? Do we know how many wounded are actually dead at this point? I went through this last month and we don't know, there's no way to find out through published sources.

[tx_dem41]

33. Why don't you go to the site we have pointed out. n/t

[MildyRules]

34. It's simply

Ask him to provide the name of ONE solider who was wounded, later died, and who has not been counted.

[MildyRules]

31. What's the name of this

army medic you interviewed on the radio?

[frictionlessO]

35. Ok look, I dont trust anything out of this misadmin, and I work with ICCC

I so very much empathize with those who do not believe the number reported by us at icasualties.

Like many others here have asked though, please give us just one or two names of people who are claiming they have a dead loved one who has not been counted.

The foreign or S. American troops (fighting under our uniform) could very well be missing from the counts but please provide us some solid sources and we will hunt down that info as well.


We want to count them all! Every last one!

If you have good solid tips send them to me or Lynn or to anyone at icasualties.

Until then I must say that many of the fallens families take this kind of speculation rather hard, as in it comes off as if there has not already been enough loss of life. You may not agree with that sentiment but it is there, I ask you to think on that with compassion and empathy.

Having said that I'll reiterate that I don't blame anyone from wondering and thinking on the possibility of a higher count. I wrap my head around how they could be sneaking any large amount of deaths past us at least once or twice a day and sometimes every hour. I am still firmly convinced that they couldn't pull it off because of the rather serious logistics involved in such a cover up (this kind of cover up would require and involve 10 times the amount of people that MIHOP re 9/11 would have), and to top it off if they got caught out it could very well bring about a coup.

I hope that we all continue to question everything, but I also hope that we can provide some good solid scources for these kinds of speculations.

Peace from me.